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iWrite · Jul 4, 2003, 11:06 AM

I've used most of the browsers and Camino is by far the best browser. It's like a cross between Internet Explorer and Safari.

Safari is still inferior. No ability to import bookmarks (you can only import them the first time you use it and not again thereafter) and it doesn't always render correctly. I like it but Camino is like the best of IE with the ability to render properly and it's as fast as Safari. I actually think it's faster.

Plus, the Sidebar on it is awesome -- has the same "feel" as OS X's "Mail" program and is really great. The interface is easier to use than Safari, also, because it's more intuitive.

Best of all, it blocks ALL pop-ups.

Try it and see what I mean.

iWrite · Jul 4, 2003, 11:08 AM

You can download it HERE

Adam Betts · Jul 4, 2003, 11:20 AM

I think Camino is very very ugly.

The development on Camino isn't as fast as it used to be.

iWrite · Jul 4, 2003, 11:22 AM

It's not ugly!

???

Have you USED it lately?

It was JUST updated!

iWrite · Jul 4, 2003, 11:25 AM

It has features that Safari doesn't have, besides.

When I minimize the icons to "Small" it the top portion (containing Toolbar and URL window) also takes up a lot less room so I have more space for the actual webpage. Also, I don't like the fact that Safari used the URL bar to show how the page is "filling" (turns blue) because I think it's distracting -- your eye is drawn to it and it's unnecessary. Camino doesn't do that and I was just testing both out and Camino -- on my 1Ghz Powerbook using Airport dial-up -- loads this page in 4 seconds and Safari loaded it in 9 seconds.

iWrite · Jul 4, 2003, 11:37 AM

I've been repeatedly testing load times for pages and it is definitely faster. Plus, adding a site to Bookmarks is MUCH easier in that it allows you to EASILY place it where you want -- including the Toolbar.

I set all of my fonts to 18pt "Verdana" (but leave the fonts and colors to be "site selected" not "use my own fonts and colors") and my unread links to dark blue and my read links to dark red and I do not underline my links. Try doing all of this with Safari -- it doesn't work half of the time (at least for me). Safari simply isn't as easy to customize.

Also, the default text (and fonts) with Safari is smaller and more crowded versus Camino (before it's customized). Camino is easier on the eyes.

Please, before you criticize Camino PLEASE download it and give it a try. That way, if you're going to criticize it, you can be objective about it.

Adam Betts · Jul 4, 2003, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by iWrite:
It's not ugly!

???

Have you USED it lately?

It was JUST updated!

Still UGLY, UGLY, UGLY.

Tabs is ****. Lack of snappiness�

All widgets are stretched and looks terrible

---------------

Your multiple posts in this thread made me wonder if you're post-boosting or you're working for their marketing dept now?

Apple Pro Underwear · Jul 4, 2003, 11:58 AM

ummm...Camino is the 3rd best browser and will be gone after awhile or it will be abandoned.

Safari is by far the best.

OptimusG4 · Jul 4, 2003, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by iWrite:
Plus, adding a site to Bookmarks is MUCH easier in that it allows you to EASILY place it where you want -- including the Toolbar.

Safari is just as easy. Drag and drop, plus it allows you to shorten or customize the name of the bookmark so you don't have 255 characters in your bar.

iWrite · Jul 4, 2003, 12:06 PM

I don't think anyone criticizing here is USING it.

Safari is NOT the best.

How can you say it's "the best" when you can't even import bookmarks to it except ONCE? What is THAT?

That SUCKS.

Camino has tabbed browsing -- IF you want it -- and the way it stores passwords is far more superior than what Safari offers.

To say that a browser is "ugly" is laughable...it's a BROWSER for crying out loud. And, in case you haven't looked lately, it looks a LOT like Safari. So, if you're calling it ugly then you must also have a subconscious dislike of Safari also.

Like I said, I doubt any of you have ACTUALLY used it. You're probably knee-jerk Mac types that simply proclaim everything Mac as being superior JUST BECAUSE.

Adam Betts · Jul 4, 2003, 12:07 PM

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
ummm...Camino is the 3rd best browser and will be gone after awhile or it will be abandoned.

Safari is by far the best.

Yep, there's too many reasons for Camino to stop the development:

No people with brain like Dave Hyatt
Firebird is gaining momentum fast and is the main focus, not Camino
Webcore attracted many developers to use it. Did Camino attract any developers? No.
Aren't trying too hard to innovate. OmniWeb 4.5 is already ahead of it at this time, IMO

Adam Betts · 12:13 PM

Originally posted by iWrite:
I don't think anyone criticizing here is USING it.

Wow, you have some kind of magic power that can tell if I'm using it or not?

Originally posted by iWrite:
Safari is NOT the best.

That is your opinion. Don't try to force it down our throat

Originally posted by iWrite:
How can you say it's "the best" when you can't even import bookmarks to it except ONCE? What is THAT?

How can you say Camino is superior if it CAN'T import Safari's bookmark too?

Originally posted by iWrite:
That SUCKS.

Camino SUCKS too.

Originally posted by iWrite:
Camino has tabbed browsing -- IF you want it -- and the way it stores passwords is far more superior than what Safari offers.

Like I said earlier, the tabs in Camino is S-H-I-T.

Originally posted by iWrite:
To say that a browser is "ugly" is laughable...it's a BROWSER for crying out loud. And, in case you haven't looked lately, it looks a LOT like Safari. So, if you're calling it ugly then you must also have a subconscious dislike of Safari also.

Camino look a LOT like Safari?

Originally posted by iWrite:
Like I said, I doubt any of you have ACTUALLY used it. You're probably knee-jerk Mac types that simply proclaim everything Mac as being superior JUST BECAUSE.

OptimusG4 · Jul 4, 2003, 12:08 PM

Um, I did try it and I agree that its fast but thats it. It looks nothing like Safari. And really, who cares what browser is best? We should be thankful we're not stuck with only IE like we were with OS 9.

iWrite · Jul 4, 2003, 12:09 PM

Drag and drop, plus it allows you to shorten or customize the name of the bookmark so you don't have 255 characters in your bar.

Uh, so does Camino. You simply click on "Manage Bookmarks" and then highlight the bookmark (in the Toolbar or just a standard bookmark) and click on the pencil icon at the top -- you can shorten or do whatever you want to.

Then all you do is click the little arrow that points to the left of the Sidebar and the Sidebar disappears instantly and your webpage fills the screen again. Nothing could be easier.

OptimusG4 · Jul 4, 2003, 12:13 PM

You missed the point. Drag the url to the bar, and AUTOMATICALLY, a dialog prompts you to change the name if you like. It IS easier than Camino after all.

iWrite · Jul 4, 2003, 12:16 PM

What?

When you're saving a site in Camino it gives you the option AUTOMATICALLY to name it what you want when you're adding it to Bookmarks. You could name it * if you want.

Powaqqatsi · Jul 4, 2003, 12:16 PM

Camino is the fastest browser and does everything I need. That's why it's the best. It's MUCH faster on my Ti867 compared to Safari.

Adam Betts · Jul 4, 2003, 12:18 PM

Originally posted by Powaqqatsi:
Camino is the fastest browser and does everything I need. That's why it's the best. It's MUCH faster on my Ti867 compared to Safari.

Care to provide some benchmarks?

iWrite · Jul 4, 2003, 12:19 PM

Yeah, it's better.

(Side note: Hey, I'm using a G4 867Mhz Titanium right now also!

Wanna know something else? It's a LOT quieter than my 1Ghz Titanium w/Superdrive and it's cooler. No fan noise AT ALL. I like it more than the 1Ghz because it's quieter and just as fast.)

iWrite · Jul 4, 2003, 12:20 PM

Adam:

I'll look around for some.

In the meantime, download it and try it for yourself and let us know your opinion. I always respect what you have to say.

Adam Betts · Jul 4, 2003, 12:20 PM

Originally posted by iWrite:
Yeah, it's better.

It's better cause it stole some features and GUI from Safari?

Mastrap · Jul 4, 2003, 12:22 PM

Safari is the only browser out there with a decent bookmark organiser. Nothing comes even close to it IMO.

Adam Betts · Jul 4, 2003, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by iWrite:
Adam:

I'll look around for some.

In the meantime, download it and try it for yourself and let us know your opinion. I always respect what you have to say.

I've been using latest sneaky peek since Chimera 0.4. When it became Camino, it's dying.

macarita · Jul 4, 2003, 12:25 PM

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
Yep, there's too many reasons for Camino to stop the development:
No people with brain like Dave Hyatt

Firebird is gaining momentum fast and is the main focus, not Camino

Webcore attracted many developers to use it. Did Camino attract any developers? No.

Aren't trying too hard to innovate. OmniWeb 4.5 is already ahead of it at this time, IMO

who is dave hyatt? the programmer?
which browser do you use most, safari or omniweb or what?

camino has always been faster for me than safari...what is it that you don't like about the tabs in camino?

malvolio · Jul 4, 2003, 12:34 PM

I am amazed at the venom in this thread.

I use Safari as my default browser, but I also use Camino, Mozilla and OmniWeb on a regular basis.
Safari still has major shortcomings, folks. But so does Camino. Neither of them has decent cookie management, for example.
There is very little difference between the implementation of tabs in Safari & Camino. If you want to see truly superior tabbing, install Tabbrowser Extensions in Mozilla.
Camino ugly? That's a matter of taste, of course, but CaminIcon lets you customize Camino's appearance exactly like SafarIcon lets you customize Safari's.
Mozilla Firebird has a loooong way to go before it's as usable as Camino. In time, it may become a "contender." If it can combine the lean, agile aspect of Camino with the mature feature set of Mozilla, great.
They're friggin' browsers, people! Use the one(s) you like. Unless you're a skilled developer (or a generous multimillionaire), your support of a particular browser is not going to change the course of browser history.

iWrite · Jul 4, 2003, 12:35 PM

"Stole features from Safari?"

WTF are you talking about?

Camino was here FIRST, remember?

Apple Pro Underwear · Jul 4, 2003, 12:39 PM

Originally posted by iWrite:
I don't think anyone criticizing here is USING it.

Safari is NOT the best.

How can you say it's "the best" when you can't even import bookmarks to it except ONCE? What is THAT?

That SUCKS.

Camino has tabbed browsing -- IF you want it -- and the way it stores passwords is far more superior than what Safari offers.

To say that a browser is "ugly" is laughable...it's a BROWSER for crying out loud. And, in case you haven't looked lately, it looks a LOT like Safari. So, if you're calling it ugly then you must also have a subconscious dislike of Safari also.

Like I said, I doubt any of you have ACTUALLY used it. You're probably knee-jerk Mac types that simply proclaim everything Mac as being superior JUST BECAUSE.

i used camino for a long while and have been updating it but you know what �

Since safari came out in beta...it's completely satisfying all my browser needs. i don't need to wonder about caminobecause there is no need. safari solves all my problems.

to contribute to the argument. both these browsers are good enough that they do not SUCK. my opinion is that a browser needs the backing of a major corporation and a significant amount of users in this era. that's just the reality of the broswe wars. camino does not have the resources to be the best now and probably forever. since it has no apparent reason for existing anymore i really doubt it will be around down the road. while I KNOW SAFARI will be here to stay.

look. enjoy it while you can but don't make it seem like camino is the answer to all problems because it's not. if you're in love with the underdog or something, root for safari because it really is trying to fight a war it has a chance of winning.

Michael_Jackson · Jul 4, 2003, 01:09 PM

safari 4ever

iWrite · Jul 4, 2003, 01:25 PM

Camino "won't be around forever?"

Camino is owned by Netscape. Netscape is owned by AOL. AOL is owned by Time Warner.

I'm SURE that Time Warner is going to be around for a LONG time.

Adam Betts · Jul 4, 2003, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by iWrite:
"Stole features from Safari?"

WTF are you talking about?

Camino was here FIRST, remember?

Best example: Bookmark Manager, Google Search Box, Block popup window, etc

Camino never had those features until Safari came out.

Stradlater · Jul 4, 2003, 01:30 PM

BOYS! Stop fighting this second or I'll pull this thread right over!

iWrite, a lot of people moved from Camino to Safari because they like Safari better. Stop making such assumptions. Personally, I as well like the feel of Safari a little better. Sure, I miss some of the more "pro" features that Camino has to offer, but on the whole, I prefer Safari. I like Safari's interface, rendering, and speed better.

Camino isn't a terrible app, but it definitely hasn't been updated in a LONG time. I just downloaded the latest nightly after taking a Camino break for months. What's changed? Wow. Nothing noticeable.

Now stop fighting, different people = different preferences. This is like Mac vs. PC, except it's doubtful that you'll convince anyone to switch to PC.

Stradlater · Jul 4, 2003, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by iWrite:
Camino "won't be around forever?"

Camino is owned by Netscape. Netscape is owned by AOL. AOL is owned by Time Warner.

I'm SURE that Time Warner is going to be around for a LONG time.

take that smug grin off your face. the current developer has been slowing development ever since safari first came out and has publicly stated that he thinks camino's development should come to a close. and soon. Camino is NOT owned by netscape, it is an open-source project based on Mozilla, which is USED, but NOT owned by netscape, et cetera. Mozilla is free, open-sourced, etc.

Adam Betts · Jul 4, 2003, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by iWrite:
Camino "won't be around forever?"

Camino is owned by Netscape. Netscape is owned by AOL. AOL is owned by Time Warner.

I'm SURE that Time Warner is going to be around for a LONG time.

Camino is not getting any pay from Netscape or Mozilla. Mozilla rejected Camino's project path and shifted all of the focus on FireBird.

Camino is on its own boat in a large ocean.

Stradlater · Jul 4, 2003, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
Best example: Bookmark Manager, Google Search Box, Block popup window, etc

Camino never had those features until Safari came out.

camino has had some searching options that safari never had (typing "? tool" could be set to search any site for "tool" and you could program many of these: "g yuppie" to search google for "yuppie", "gi babes" to search google image search for babes, etc") and camino HAS had popup blocking long before safari was released.

iWrite · Jul 4, 2003, 01:39 PM

Safari's inability to import Bookmarks speaks, on its own, of inferiority.

Adam Betts · Jul 4, 2003, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by Stradlater:
camino has had some searching options that safari never had (typing "? tool" could be set to search any site for "tool" and you could program many of these: "g yuppie" to search google for "yuppie", "gi babes" to search google image search for babes, etc") and camino HAS had popup blocking long before safari was released.

Oh boy..

That searching options idea was stolen from OmniWeb.

Camino did have popup window blocking but it wasn't in Preferences until Safari came out and they later added the option to enable that.

Stradlater · Jul 4, 2003, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
Oh boy..

That searching options idea was stolen from OmniWeb.

Camino did have popup window blocking but it wasn't in Preferences until Safari came out and they later added the option to enable that.

i'm not arguing for Camino, I'm just saying that it DID have options (i'm also not saying it pioneered them, I'm aware of this option and how it was better-implemented in Omni)

Adam Betts · Jul 4, 2003, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by iWrite:
Safari's inability to import Bookmarks speaks, on its own, of inferiority.

Read my post above:

How can you say Camino is superior if it CAN'T import Safari's bookmark too?

Stradlater · Jul 4, 2003, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by iWrite:
Safari's inability to import Bookmarks speaks, on its own, of inferiority.

ok, WOW, YOU HAVE CONVINCED ME, you see, I import my bookmarks once, twice, maybe twenty times a day...

Seriously get a better argument. NOBODY cares about bookmark importing that much. And if you're talking about different set-ups, Safari bookmarks sync with iSync, and if bookmark syncing is that important to you, then you might as well pay for .mac

iWrite · Jul 4, 2003, 01:48 PM

You're GOING to care when you decide to upgrade bookmarks.

It IS a big deal.

Why didn't Apple put it in, anyway? Every other browser has it.

You're so smart, let's see what your answer is.

iWrite · Jul 4, 2003, 01:50 PM

Oh, yeah, sure I'll pay $99 for .Mac just to make sure I can update bookmarks.

Oh, I forgot, I DO have .Mac -- but not for bookmarking.

(That would make a GREAT ad campaign for Apple, BTW)

Adam Betts · Jul 4, 2003, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by Stradlater:
ok, WOW, YOU HAVE CONVINCED ME, you see, I import my bookmarks once, twice, maybe twenty times a day...

Seriously get a better argument. NOBODY cares about bookmark importing that much. And if you're talking about different set-ups, Safari bookmarks sync with iSync, and if bookmark syncing is that important to you, then you might as well pay for .mac

True, bookmark importing isn't really important as most people won't use it very often. There's also several apps that allow you to import/export bookmarks.

Stradlater · Jul 4, 2003, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by iWrite:
Oh, yeah, sure I'll pay $99 for .Mac just to make sure I can update bookmarks.

Oh, I forgot, I DO have .Mac -- but not for bookmarking.

(That would make a GREAT ad campaign for Apple, BTW)

what do you mean update bookmarks??? if you only used safari, don't they update themselves? I don't even know what you mean. But when I reinstall, I just backup and replace that bookmarks.xtml file in the Library. And don't assume, I was telling you about .mac for your benefit, I don't see enough personal benefit in the features received to pay for the service.

Adam Betts · Jul 4, 2003, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by iWrite:
Why didn't Apple put it in, anyway? Every other browser has it.

For the third time, Camino CAN'T import Safari's bookmark so no browser is superior at bookmark importing.

You better get this through your head.

Stradlater · Jul 4, 2003, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
For the third time, Camino CAN'T import Safari's bookmark so no browser is superior at bookmark importing.

You better get this through your head.

yeah iWrite, i have yet to see you rebut this argument

iOliverC · Jul 4, 2003, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by iWrite:
"Stole features from Safari?"

WTF are you talking about?

Camino was here FIRST, remember?

What about the bookmarks organizer? The search bar that looks EXACTLY like Safaris?

[Edit: Didn't realise this has already been said]

Powaqqatsi · Jul 4, 2003, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
Care to provide some benchmarks?

Sure. Altough they are a bit unscientific

done with my watch, don't have a chronometer around here (I used the chrono in my watch but it isn't super-precise). I'm really under the impression that there is something really wrong with my Safari installation.

I flushed the diskcache for both before testing.

Safari 1.0 vs. Camino latest nightly (4-4-2003)

MacNN Lounge
Camino: 2 sec 70"
Safari: 9 sec 40"

Apple.com
Camino: 4 sec 10"
Safari: 9 sec 70"

Afterwards I did the same test but through http://www.numion.com/Stopwatch/index.html
(without flushing the diskcache)

MacNN Lounge
Camino: 2 sec 197
Safari: 7 sec 292

Apple.com
Camino: 1 sec 703"
Safari: 2 sec 640"

Quite the difference hey ? I really don't believe why people say this is the fastest browser. Maybe it's faster compared to the last official Camino release (0.7) but not compared to the last nightlies. (well Safari has never been faster for me)

Adam Betts · Jul 4, 2003, 02:05 PM

Powaqqatsi, when was the last time you formatted your computer?

Stradlater · Jul 4, 2003, 02:07 PM

MacNN lounge loads in maybe a couple (2) seconds on my iMac FP, and I think my cable connection is a little slow.

Powaqqatsi · Jul 4, 2003, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
Powaqqatsi, when was the last time you formatted your computer?

The end of december or maybe even the first days of January (after a lot of partying

), when I just bought my Ti. There is nothing wrong with my HD, 100% sure. And anyway if there was something wrong with it, wouldn't Camino be affected too ??