[moki]

preemptive arrests, ethnic profiling? Go France!!!!

from: http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald...d/10103988.htm

.....

In France, aggressive tactics fight terrorism

Armed with some of the strictest antiterrorism laws and policies in Europe, the French government has aggressively targeted Islamic radicals and other people deemed a potential terrorist threat.

BY CRAIG WHITLOCK

Washington Post Service

PARIS - In many countries of Europe, former inmates of the U.S. military prison at Guant�namo Bay, Cuba, have been relishing their freedom. In Spain, Denmark and Britain, recently released detainees have railed in public about their treatment at Guant�namo, winning sympathy from local politicians and newspapers. In Sweden, the government has agreed to help one Guant�namo veteran sue his American captors for damages.

Not so in France, where four prisoners from the U.S. naval base were arrested as soon as they arrived home in July, and haven't been heard from since. Under French law, they could remain locked up for as long as three years while authorities decide whether to put them on trial -- a legal limbo that their attorneys charge is not much different than what they faced at Guant�namo.

STRICT LAWS

Armed with some of the strictest antiterrorism laws and policies in Europe, the French government has aggressively targeted Islamic radicals and other people deemed a potential terrorist threat. While other Western countries debate the proper balance between security and individual rights, France has experienced scant public dissent over tactics that would be controversial, if not illegal, in the United States and some other countries.

French authorities have expelled a dozen Islamic clerics for allegedly promoting hatred or religious extremism, including a Turkish-born imam who officials said denied that Muslims were involved in the Sept. 11 attacks on the United States. Since the start of the school year, the government has been enforcing a ban on wearing religious garb in school, a policy aimed largely at preventing Muslim girls from wearing veils.

CLAIMS OF SUCCESS

French counterterrorism officials say their preemptive approach has paid off, enabling them both to disrupt plots before they happen and to prevent radical cells from forming in the first place. They said tips from informants and close cooperation with other intelligence services led them to thwart planned attacks on the U.S. Embassy in Paris, French tourist sites on Reunion Island in the Indian Ocean, and other targets.

''There is a reality today: Under the cover of religion there are individuals in our country preaching extremism and calling for violence,'' Interior Minister Dominique de Villepin said at a recent meeting of Islamic leaders in Paris. ``It is essential to be opposed to it together and by all means.''

Thomas Sanderson, a terrorism expert with the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, said France has combined its tough law enforcement strategy with a softer diplomatic campaign in the Middle East designed to bolster ties with Islamic countries.

''You do see France making an effort to cast itself as the friendly Western power,'' as distinct from the United States, he said. ``When it comes to counterterrorism operations, France is hard-core. . . . But they are also very cognizant of what public diplomacy is all about.''

France has embraced a law enforcement strategy that relies heavily on preemptive arrests, ethnic profiling and an efficient domestic intelligence-gathering network. French antiterrorism prosecutors and investigators are among the most powerful in Europe, backed by laws that allow them to interrogate suspects for days without interference from defense attorneys.

The nation pursues such policies at a time when France has become well-known in the world for criticizing the United States for holding suspected terrorists at Guant�namo without normal judicial protections. French politicians have also loudly protested the U.S. decision to invade Iraq, arguing that it has exacerbated tensions with the Islamic world and has increased the threat of terrorism.

Despite the political discord over Iraq, France's intelligence and counterterrorism officials say they work closely with their American counterparts on terrorism investigations.

NEIGHBORS WATCHING

With the largest Muslim population in Europe, France is being closely watched in neighboring countries, many of which are tightening their own antiterror and immigration laws. But even following the Sept. 11 attacks and the March 11 bombings of commuter trains in Madrid, other European countries have been reluctant to fully embrace the French model, part of a legal tradition from the Napoleonic era that has always given prosecutors strong powers.

Britain, for instance, typically takes years to extradite terrorism suspects to other countries and has respected the free-speech rights of imams who praise Osama bin Laden, the al Qaeda leader, and endorse holy war.

Many of the antiterror laws and policies in France date to 1986, when the country was grappling with Palestinian and European extremist groups. Since then, the government has modified those laws several times, gradually giving authorities expanded powers to deport and detain people.

OPPOSING VIEW

Critics, however, assert that most people arrested on orders of antiterrorism judges in France never face terror-related charges and eventually are freed. Official statistics on French terrorism prosecutions are not readily available, so it is difficult to assess the outcome of such cases.

William Bourdon, a Paris attorney representing Nizar Sassi and Mourad Benchellali, two of the four French nationals released from Guant�namo Bay in July, said his clients were rearrested not because they were suspected of any crimes in France, but merely because they had gone to Afghanistan before the U.S.-led invasion in 2001. Under French law, his clients could remain jailed for up to three years until authorities complete their investigation.

''What has been done here is absolutely unfair,'' he said. ``There's a high level of inhumanity in the decision.''

[moki]

I say go France! Apparently they've learned to play the PR war much better than we have (not a surprise really), while effectively maintaining the same policies the USA has. I must say, all of the criticism over Gitmo is ironic considering:

William Bourdon, a Paris attorney representing Nizar Sassi and Mourad Benchellali, two of the four French nationals released from Guant�namo Bay in July, said his clients were rearrested not because they were suspected of any crimes in France, but merely because they had gone to Afghanistan before the U.S.-led invasion in 2001. Under French law, his clients could remain jailed for up to three years until authorities complete their investigation.

[UNTeMac]

These tactics may be effective in the short term but I think they tend to perpetuate the view of many on the muslim street that the west is out to get them. If someone in a muslim family is falsely arrested on charges of terrorism, then set free after losing wages, respect, and gaining the general suspicion of his/her friends and coworkers, what do you think he/she and family are going to think?

I think it's these kinds of policies where the government's judgment is without question in cases of arrest and detainment are the wrong direction for justice in any country. Free societies are inherently more vulnerable. We live with it because freedom is worth the sacrifice.

[Zimphire]

France will be attacked probably for this. Look to see who says "They deserved it" because of this.

Frankly, I am glad to see France not pussy-footing around.

[Shaddim]

Wow, they've got the "Patriot Act x5" over there. Wonder when the French are going to rise up and denounce their unfair government for oppressing it's citizenry? Well...


Really looks bad after all the things they've said about GWB, doesn't it?

[typoon]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Wow, they've got the "Patriot Act x5" over there. Wonder when the French are going to rise up and denounce their unfair government for oppressing it's citizenry? Well...


Really looks bad after all the things they've said about GWB, doesn't it?

You know they won't because if their Gov't does it or any other socialist or liberal does it then it's okay.

[CD Hanks]

It's been known that the French have the best intelligence services in the world. It's rather satisfying to see them actively using it.

[Logic]

Wait, I thought they were Surrender Monkeys�


What happened to that?

[Logic]

Oh, I almost forgot.

Hurrah for racial profiling!!

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Logic:
Wait, I thought they were Surrender Monkeys�


What happened to that?

Oh, they're good at smacking around their own people, it's other nations that scare the bejeezees out of them.

[villalobos]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Wow, they've got the "Patriot Act x5" over there. Wonder when the French are going to rise up and denounce their unfair government for oppressing it's citizenry? Well...


Really looks bad after all the things they've said about GWB, doesn't it?

they did not attack Iraq on false premises though....

[villalobos]

Originally posted by Logic:
Wait, I thought they were Surrender Monkeys�


What happened to that?

They are also soft on terrorism remember? But then that's coming from people who think terrorism started on 9/11..... and have no clus whatsoever about the oustide world.

you people amuse me.

[typoon]

Originally posted by villalobos:
They are also soft on terrorism remember? But then that's coming from people who think terrorism started on 9/11..... and have no clus whatsoever about the oustide world.

you people amuse me.

You are quite wrong on that. We have known that Terrorism was a problem before 9/11 but nothing was ever done because we had never been attacked before. Many people were short sighted in that they figured since the cold war was over there would be no need for the military might anymore and worked to reduce our military. Once the terrorists attcked the U.S. on 9/11 that is when they truly declared "war" on us.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by villalobos:
they did not attack Iraq on false premises though....

Fair enough.

"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun."

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by moki:
preemptive arrests, ethnic profiling? Go France!!!!

Woaw...

France is now "� la mode"...

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by CD Hanks:
It's been known that the French have the best intelligence services in the world. It's rather satisfying to see them actively using it.

Nice seeing you sucking up after the French...

You're gonna need it...

[CD Hanks]

Originally posted by SimpleLife:
Nice seeing you sucking up after the French...

You're gonna need it...

Excuse me?

And what account did you previously have that got banned? Or are you just too much of a coward to actually use your real account?

edit: I'm betting on ambush.

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by CD Hanks:
Excuse me?

And what account did you previously have that got banned? Or are you just too much of a coward to actually use your real account?

There was so much downgrading of the French in these threads in the last 3 years...

Now they are "in".

Yet, they never changed a thing about the way they handled terrorism since Algeria...

Please stay on topic.

[CD Hanks]

Originally posted by SimpleLife:
Please stay on topic.

Sure thing. You first.

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by CD Hanks:
It's been known that the French have the best intelligence services in the world. It's rather satisfying to see them actively using it.

Like they never did?

[CD Hanks]

Originally posted by SimpleLife:
Like they never did?

Perhaps I should rephrase. It's good to see it getting the press it deserves.

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by CD Hanks:
Perhaps I should rephrase. It's good to see it getting the press it deserves.

ah.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by UNTiMac:
what do you think he/she and family are going to think?

A: Mama, don't let your babies grow up to be terrorists?

[aberdeenwriter]

I'm kinda surprised at what looks like a French way of dealing with terrorism that even a Bushie can respect.

It makes me think back to a few weeks ago when Kerry was criticized for saying that fighting terrorism was a police matter, or something like that.

Too bad he couldn't have alluded to the example in the article, or else I might have better understood his remark (if that was what he meant).

Also, all of you here who are smirking and feeling all self-satisfied that the bushies and others have NOW come to understand how tough the French are on terrorism, just slow down a bit.

Why weren't you providing us with this kind of information before the election instead of posting photos of victimized Palestinians?

[Beewee]

Originally posted by Logic:
Oh, I almost forgot.

Hurrah for racial profiling!!

Racial Profiling...I think they mean racist profiling.

Oh I know what this is, its the "science" that says things like
black people steal more and certain groups are prone to do other bad things based solely on their race. A ridiculous idea to say the least, I believe it was what took them so long to catch Timothy Mcvay, they thought it was a middle eastern terrorist.

So yes, "yeah for racial profiling!" Giving people a false sense of security since 1990

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by Beewee:
Racial Profiling...I think they mean racist profiling.

Oh I know what this is, its the "science" that says things like
black people steal more and certain groups are prone to do other bad things based solely on their race. A ridiculous idea to say the least, I believe it was what took them so long to catch Timothy Mcvay, they thought it was a middle eastern terrorist.

So yes, "yeah for racial profiling!" Giving people a false sense of security since 1990

http://www.policyreview.org/AUG02/harris_print.html

The poison of the radical Islamic fantasy ideology is being spread all over the Muslim world through schools and through the media, through mosques and through the demagoguery of the Arab street. In fact, there is no better way to grasp the full horror of the poison than to listen as a Palestinian mother offers her four-year-old son up to be yet another victim of this ghastly fantasy.

Once we understand this, many of our current perplexities will find themselves resolved. Pseudo-issues such as debates over the legitimacy of �racial profiling� would disappear: Does anyone in his right mind object to screening someone entering his country for signs of plague? Or quarantining those who have contracted it? Or closely monitoring precisely those populations within his country that are most at risk?

Let there be no doubt about it. The fantasy ideologies of the twentieth century were plagues, killing millions and millions of innocent men, women, and children. The only difference was that the victims and targets of such fantasy ideologies so frequently refused to see them for what they were, interpreting them as something quite different � as normal politics, as reasonable aspirations, as merely variations on the well-known theme of realpolitik, behaving � tragically enough � no differently from Montezuma when he attempted to decipher the inexplicable enigma posed by the appearance of the Spanish conquistadors. Nor did the fact that his response was entirely human make his fate any less terrible.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by Beewee:
Racial Profiling...I think they mean racist profiling.

Oh I know what this is, its the "science" that says things like
black people steal more and certain groups are prone to do other bad things based solely on their race. A ridiculous idea to say the least, I believe it was what took them so long to catch Timothy Mcvay, they thought it was a middle eastern terrorist.

http://www.jaynadavis.com/wsj.html

"...For example, Nichols was a man of modest means. Yet he traveled frequently to the Philippines. Davis discovered that Nichols was there, in Cebu City in December 1994, at the same time as the convicted mastermind of the first World Trade Center attack, Ramzi Yousef.

She has also found evidence that Islamic terrorists boasted of having recruited two "lily whites" for terrorism.

Al-Hussaini had a very American response to Davis' investigation. He sued for defamation. In a ruling on Nov. 17, 1999, federal Judge Timothy Leonard dismissed the case.

In 1995, the federal grand jury proclaimed in the official indictment that McVeigh and Nichols acted with "others unknown." And several members of the Denver juries who convicted the two said publicly that they thought they had help.

Since 1997, Davis has repeatedly tried to interest the FBI in her investigation. She has been rebuffed.

As for Al-Hussaini, after leaving Oklahoma City, he went on to work at Boston's Logan International Airport, the point of origin for several for the 9/11 hijackers, including Mohammad Atta.

One more thing. That motel where McVeigh, Nichols and Al-Hussaini were seen together was later visited (pre-9/11) by Atta, Zacharias Moussaouy and Marwan Al-Shehi..."

************************************************** ******************
"When the full stories of these two incidents (1993 WTC Center bombing and 1995 Oklahoma City bombing) are finally told, those who permitted the investigations to stop short will owe big explanations to these two brave women (Middle East expert Laurie Mylroie and journalist Jayna Davis). And the nation will owe them a debt of gratitude."
- Former CIA Director James Woolsey,
Wall Street Journal, September 5, 2002
Original story link - "The Iraq Connection"_

_
The Iraq Connection
Micah Morrison
Wall Street Journal

September2,2002 ~ With the Sept. 11 anniversary upon us and President Bush talking about a "regime change" in Iraq, it's an apt time to look at two investigators who connect Baghdad to two notorious incidents of domestic terrorism. Jayna Davis, a former television reporter in Oklahoma City, believes an Iraqi cell was involved in the 1995 bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building here. Middle East expert Laurie Mylroie links Iraq to the first bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993, and has published a book on the subject.
Full Story

Making the Iraq Case
Wall Street Journal Editorial_

September 5, 2002 -- Mr. Bush emerged from a meeting with Congressional leaders to declare that " Saddam is a serious threat," and that "doing nothing about that serious threat is not an option for the United States."� If the Administration is serious, and it looks to be, then we also hope its case includes some recognition of the story reported by Micah Morrison on this page today. It distills the facts collected by two dogged investigators about the role Iraq and Saddam may have played both in the first World Trade Center attack in 1993 and in the Oklahoma City bombing of 1995.
Full Story

_

[y0y0]

I've often laughed at the stereotypes bandied around in the US about the French. The French stereotypes of arrogant effete cultural types is about as accurate as the stereotype of Americans being conspiring bloodthirsty imperialists bandied about in Europe. I suppose we all have our stereotypes about places and people we know nothing about, sadly, but I think it's normal.

FWIW: France has had the toughest anti-terror laws in Europe since 1986 when Islamic terrorists did a series of bombings in urban France at the same time as the now defunct Communist terrorist group Action Directe plotted bombings and kidnappings. The Islamic terrorism came at the end of a wave of radical leftist terrorist actions all over Europe, and, in France the radical leftist terrorism came after a series of plots by Army mutineers for De Gaulle ending the war in Algeria and giving it its independance in 1962. The wave of far left terrorism (and please don't equate this with the Democrats in the US or any such crap, ok?) in Europe was prevalent in most European countries such as Italy, Belgium, Germany and France and at the same time the IRA was carrying out its campaign in the UK and ETA in Spain.

Europe is no stranger to terrorism.

The countries that repsonded the most harshly to this eventually succeded in stopping all but the most fanatical of terrorist groups, and public support for the far left dried out after one too many killings of public figures. Terrorism can not survive without a support base. The reason that the IRA and ETA survived so long is becuase they had small but solid bases of support in their respective ethnic areas.

Now, Europe also has today a fairly large Muslim population, and obviously, the authorities view this with worry when looking at support bases for Islamic Fundamentalist terror. And that worry is justified. European countries and societies, being culturally and socially distinct and having solid national identities for many hundreds of years as opposed to colonist nations such as the US, Australia or Brazil, are not as inclusive as the latter, and although many public campaigns have been carried out over the years to integrate Muslim immigrants, in many countries the Muslim communities have become marginalised at the edge of society with high unemployment rates and poverty.

Germany is lucky in that its immigrant population is mainly of Turkish descent, and although there are some radical Muslim Turks, the vast majority believe in the secular Turkish ideal.

Spain has an immigrant population mainly made out of Morrocans, many of whom entred the country illegally in a similar manner to the way Mexicans enter the US illegally across the southern border. This means that many of them live in abject poverty and the potential for social unrest among them is very high. These are and were the breeding grounds for the Madrid train bombers this year. the former conservative government did itself a disservice by trying to cover up the potential for attacks in order to distract from its support of the US in Iraq. The new socialist government, however, is paradoxically much more on the ball over terrorism and dozens of arrests have since followed since the security forces have not been hindered by the government anymore.

France is unlucky in that it has both Europe's largest Muslim population (5 million people) and Europe's largest Jewish population (500 000) in a total of some 60 million, something which raises the potential for social unrest. As stated further up, they have been very aware of the potential for terrorism for a long time and even averted a plot to fly a plane into the Eifel tower in the 90's similar to the 9/11 plot in the US as well as numerous smaller plots, one of which was an attempt to blow up the Cathedral in Strassbourg. Nevertheless, they have begun something pretty unique in that France has begun a programme to train its own Imams (Mullahs, Islamic preachers) in an attempt counter the influence of radical foreign Imams preaching hatred and intolerance in France and Europe.

I don't know which way it will go in France or Europe. Certainly, one of the reasons Chirac was so against supporting the US in Iraq was the fact that it would have caused even more unrest in the Muslim population in France, and the French neither want nor need that.

Sorry for the long essay.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by y0y0:
I've often laughed at the stereotypes bandied around in the US about the French. The French stereotypes of arrogant effete cultural types is about as accurate as the stereotype of Americans being conspiring bloodthirsty imperialists bandied about in Europe. I suppose we all have our stereotypes about places and people we know nothing about, sadly, but I think it's normal.

<SNIP>

Sorry for the long essay.

Thanks for taking the time to write it. Very informative.

[y0y0]

Originally posted by aberdeenwriter:
http://www.jaynadavis.com/wsj.html
...

I know you're the one with a hag for foreign conspiracies (I don't know what you would have done had the 9/11 attacks never taken place? Maybe UFO research? ) but you should know that the 9/11 commission's report, which should perhaps be taken with a pinch more seriousness than the report of a TV reporter from Oklahoma City, given that they had access to a lot more information than she did, stated that there was no connection between Iraq and 9/11 (or the WTC bombings in 1993 or the OK city one for that matter.).

The number of times this supposed "research" has turned up is amazing. And do you know why? Timothy McVeigh fought in Gulf War I. he proudly and publicly boasted about having shot the head off a surrendering Iraqi soldier at 1000 yards with the gun of the Bradley during the war. Do you suppose someone like that would have taken to plotting with Iraqis after that?

[PacHead]

France is hypocritical when criticizing the USA while they themselves use tactics that far surpass anything found in the patriot act.

I'm not crazy about the French I admit, but this article is good news, because even though the French aren't great, they are far, far better than islamic wackjobs/terrorists, and the islamists will hate France just as much as they hate the USA. So when it comes down to it, and things start to get nasty, France will be on our side eventually, IMO. With the veil ban, these racial profiling laws (which we should have here in the USA btw, religious profiling not racial), the whole Muslim world will hate France, and so will the islamic terrorists.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by y0y0:
I know you're the one with a hag for foreign conspiracies (I don't know what you would have done had the 9/11 attacks never taken place? Maybe UFO research? ) but you should know that the 9/11 commission's report, which should perhaps be taken with a pinch more seriousness than the report of a TV reporter from Oklahoma City, given that they had access to a lot more information than she did, stated that there was no connection between Iraq and 9/11 (or the WTC bombings in 1993 or the OK city one for that matter.).

The number of times this supposed "research" has turned up is amazing. And do you know why? Timothy McVeigh fought in Gulf War I. he proudly and publicly boasted about having shot the head off a surrendering Iraqi soldier at 1000 yards with the gun of the Bradley during the war. Do you suppose someone like that would have taken to plotting with Iraqis after that?

You just wait til the UFO's land on the White House lawn, THEN we'll see who has the 'last laugh!' <wink>

Actually, I see myself as being concerned that news (and other 'things') that might slip through the cracks not be lost or ignored or go unexamined or considered SIMPLY because of human nature to focus on the BIG, OBVIOUS story. The BIG OBVIOUS story is important, but everyone already knows about that, so there's no danger of it escaping examination. But what about the information that was there, but no one bothered to look at it?

THAT is what's interesting to me.

One of the articles on the linked page says Mc Veigh went to his death without revealing any Iraqi co-conspirators because he didn't want his family to think of him as a traitor. That makes sense.

On another matter...

In your previous post you mentioned: "Nevertheless, they have begun something pretty unique in that France has begun a programme to train its own Imams (Mullahs, Islamic preachers) in an attempt counter the influence of radical foreign Imams preaching hatred and intolerance in France..."

Here's a similar Dutch program.

Imams on Dutch culture course
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2525407.stm

By Clarisse Pereira
BBC, The Netherlands

Immigrant imams play an important role

Muslim clerics in the Netherlands are attending courses on Dutch values which include education about soft drugs, prostitution, gay marriage and euthanasia.

The seminars are part of a government programme for new arrivals, which since September has included a tailor-made course for religious leaders.

The Netherlands is the first country in Europe to demand immigrants take an integration course and 300 hours of Dutch language training.

The Islamic community is growing in the Netherlands, and now accounts for 6% of the population.

Most Muslim immigrants are from Morocco and Turkey who arrived as guest workers in the sixties and seventies.

[moki]

Originally posted by CD Hanks:
It's been known that the French have the best intelligence services in the world. It's rather satisfying to see them actively using it.

yep, and French intelligence was stating Iraq had WMD prior to the war in Iraq. Ah well, I guess it's just easier to use the old "Bush lied" talking point.

Logic wrote:

Wait, I thought they were Surrender Monkeys�

That's not anything I've ever stated. I disagree with some of their policies, resent the anti-Americanism there, but I'm quick to praise anyone who does something I agree with. You, on the other hand, I can't see every praising anything America does -- ever.

[moki]

For a look at French anti-terrorism and human rights, pick up a copy of the Battle of Algiers. The French make Gitmo and Abu Ghraib look like tourist resort vacations.

Indeed, Algeria is still an utter mess, and the French take no responsibility for it at all; ditto with most of Africa that was decimated by Europe, and still has not yet recovered).

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by villalobos:
But then that's coming from people who think terrorism started on 9/11..... and have no clus whatsoever about the oustide world.

Tell me villa, who thinks that?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by moki:
but I'm quick to praise anyone who does something I agree with. You, on the other hand, I can't see every praising anything America does -- ever.

I notice that. I was quick to praise France too!

I was that way with Clinton as well. Even though in his second term he wasn't my pick. When he did something good, I would give him props for it.

It seems some people cannot give props to certain people or countries no matter what. They find some way to spin it in a bad nature.

ohwell.wav

It must suck to be so darn negative all the time.

[villalobos]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Tell me villa, who thinks that?

Lotsa people on this forum. There is no need for names, they will know who they are.

[villalobos]

Originally posted by moki:
yep, and French intelligence was stating Iraq had WMD prior to the war in Iraq. Ah well, I guess it's just easier to use the old "Bush lied" talking point.

yeah but for some reasons the French government was still not so sure. Maybe the French intelligence was not as categorical as you suggest. they sure did call Bull on the Niger plutonium stuff that your president presented at the State of the Union. Oh and they did so BEFORE the said SotU.

Lies or not, you be the judge.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by moki:
For a look at French anti-terrorism and human rights, pick up a copy of the Battle of Algiers. The French make Gitmo and Abu Ghraib look like tourist resort vacations.

Indeed, Algeria is still an utter mess, and the French take no responsibility for it at all; ditto with most of Africa that was decimated by Europe, and still has not yet recovered).

Algeria had free elections, radical Islamics won. Once in power they abolished free elections. Civil war & violence has been the result since then.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by villalobos:
yeah but for some reasons the French government was still not so sure. Maybe the French intelligence was not as categorical as you suggest. they sure did call Bull on the Niger plutonium stuff that your president presented at the State of the Union. Oh and they did so BEFORE the said SotU.

Lies or not, you be the judge.

Ok, villalobos.

I imply to you I've got a gun. Someone says I don't. Some say I do. I hate your guts. If I do have a gun, I can use it on your dear friends. I can give it to someone to use it on you. The law has already stated I'm not supposed to have a gun.

You can wait til I shoot your dear friend. You can wait til I give it to someone to use it on you. You can strongly urge the law to do it's job and disarm me.

The law wants to wait. But you fear that waiting might needlessly jeopardize your life or that of your friend.

Now, YOU be the judge.

What do you do?

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by villalobos:
Lotsa people on this forum. There is no need for names, they will know who they are.

Pfftt. Anyone with sense knows it started with the Palestinians.

[boots]

Originally posted by aberdeenwriter:
Ok, villalobos.

I imply to you I've got a gun. Someone says I don't. Some say I do. I hate your guts. If I do have a gun, I can use it on your dear friends. I can give it to someone to use it on you. The law has already stated I'm not supposed to have a gun.

You can wait til I shoot your dear friend. You can wait til I give it to someone to use it on you. You can strongly urge the law to do it's job and disarm me.

The law wants to wait. But you fear that waiting might needlessly jeopardize your life or that of your friend.

Now, YOU be the judge.

What do you do?

Oh! I didn't know you had lived in Detroit. I'd say you nailed the Cass Corridor pretty well.

[villalobos]

Originally posted by aberdeenwriter:
Ok, villalobos.

I imply to you I've got a gun. Someone says I don't. Some say I do. I hate your guts. If I do have a gun, I can use it on your dear friends. I can give it to someone to use it on you. The law has already stated I'm not supposed to have a gun.

You can wait til I shoot your dear friend. You can wait til I give it to someone to use it on you. You can strongly urge the law to do it's job and disarm me.

The law wants to wait. But you fear that waiting might needlessly jeopardize your life or that of your friend.

Now, YOU be the judge.

What do you do?

Well I know you have a gun, since I provided you with it some time ago, when you were taking care of these other guys that I really don't like, and that the whole town does not really like. And you did a pretty good job at it. But then you kinda got cocky and decided to attack the candy store. Not sure why since you are yourself a candy producer. But you know how everybody in the town LOVES candy. Almost to an addiction point. Bad for the health and everything but gotta have some candy. So everybody in the town decided to kick you out of the candy store and then to keep you in check. The town also decided to send investigators in your house to make sure you did not have any more guns, that you got rid of them as you told the town. Followed a few incidents : you decided to kick these investigators, but they finally came back in and still were finding no guns. Things seemed to go along until the good people on Washington Avenue and London street decided to get you, that you were not cooperating with the investigation and that you had piles and piles of guns hidden somewhere, and that you were cooperating with the thugs that used to live on Kabul way and ran away from the town police. Although lotsa people were opposed to the idea (especially the folks on Rue de Paris and Berliner Strasse), they proceeded, invaded your house, put you in jail. And now the town is safer. And everybody can go back to eat candy. lotsa candy.

I know I have no writing talents. But that's good enough for a sunday morning plagued with a hangover.

[villalobos]

Originally posted by boots:
Oh! I didn't know you had lived in Detroit. I'd say you nailed the Cass Corridor pretty well.

Hey don't you be mean to Detroit. I actually lived on Cass Avenue. Things have improved quite a bit there during the few years I spent in this town, and since I left it too. It's gonna take a whole lot more though.

I missed hockey.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by villalobos:
Well I know you have a gun, since I provided you with it some time ago, when you were taking care of these other guys that I really don't like, and that the whole town does not really like. And you did a pretty good job at it. But then you kinda got cocky and decided to attack the candy store. Not sure why since you are yourself a candy producer. But you know how everybody in the town LOVES candy. Almost to an addiction point. Bad for the health and everything but gotta have some candy. So everybody in the town decided to kick you out of the candy store and then to keep you in check. The town also decided to send investigators in your house to make sure you did not have any more guns, that you got rid of them as you told the town. Followed a few incidents : you decided to kick these investigators, but they finally came back in and still were finding no guns. Things seemed to go along until the good people on Washin

Bang!

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by boots:
Oh! I didn't know you had lived in Detroit. I'd say you nailed the Cass Corridor pretty well.

I'd wager a penny on John Phillips having nailed Cass' corridor.