[DavideMac]

If someone has DWMX and as we all know it has a code viewer and editor, why would anyone need BBedit and why does DWMX offer an "edit with BBedit" in the edit menu? I'm just curious if I'm missing something and if purchasing BBedit will be benificial to my web developement. Don't get me wrong, I know BBedit is great editor but funds don't always let me buy everything I want, and I'm wondering if I should upgrade to DWMX04 or purchase BBedit.

Any insight would be appreciated.

Thanks

[philzilla]

compare the time it takes DMX04 to open, to the time it takes BBE to open. that's one good reason right there, if you just need to make a few quick tweaks to yer code.

i find BBE to be faster all round, than DMX04 in code mode. there's just too much slowing that thing down, which you don't need if you're only editing some code.

DMX04 for a GUI view, BBE for code view. that's just me though. see what other people think.

[Simon Mundy]

Originally posted by philzilla:
DMX04 for a GUI view, BBE for code view. that's just me though. see what other people think.

...and if you've recently checked BBEdit's site, you'll see that you don't even need DMX04 to preview your code anymore.

A WebCore browser view from within BBEdit. Heaven!!!

[godzookie2k]

the new built in preview is a dream come true.

[madmacgames]

DWMX04 sucks on Panther & Jaguar... really slow.

DXMX is ok.

I prefer the php coloring of DWMX over BBedit. The syntax coloring of php in BBedit is really terrible IMO... there are like 2 or 3 colors and some things that should be colored are not. BBedit has a hard time seperating php from inside HTML sometimes... sometimes it will be just all light brown or whatever color that is. Bbedit does not handle php comments well either... It handles the "/" fine but the "/* */" combination, it does not carry through all the time... BBedit really needs to improve how it handles php syntax coloring. They could start by taking a look at how PHP does the syntax coloring for itself.

Plus DWMN has those nice code tool-tips for php functions where BBedit does not.

That being said, I use BBedit. Just wish they would improve their PHP support.

[philzilla]

Originally posted by madmacgames:
I prefer the php coloring of DWMX over BBedit. The syntax coloring of php in BBedit is really terrible IMO... there are like 2 or 3 colors and some things that should be colored are not. BBedit has a hard time seperating php from inside HTML sometimes... sometimes it will be just all light brown or whatever color that is. Bbedit does not handle php comments well either... It handles the "/" fine but the "/* */" combination, it does not carry through all the time... BBedit really needs to improve how it handles php syntax coloring. They could start by taking a look at how PHP does the syntax coloring for itself.

are we talking about the same application here?

[madmacgames]

BBedit from barebones?

I love the program, but the way it handles PHP syntax is terrible... really there are some free programs out there that can handle and color PHP code better than BBedit does.

BBedit doesn't handle mixing PHP/HTML all that well either; esp when using the comment "/* */".

here is a PDF showing exactly some of the downfalls BBedit has with PHP:
hxxp://www.madmacgames.com/pub/BBedit_PHP_messup.pdf

[Simon Mundy]

Originally posted by madmacgames:
BBedit from barebones?

I love the program, but the way it handles PHP syntax is terrible... really there are some free programs out there that can handle and color PHP code better than BBedit does.

BBedit doesn't handle mixing PHP/HTML all that well either; esp when using the comment "/* */".

here is a PDF showing exactly some of the downfalls BBedit has with PHP:
hxxp://www.madmacgames.com/pub/BBedit_PHP_messup.pdf

...and you've submitted this as a bug to the BBEdit team? It is indeed a nasty way of handling comments. I've also seen it in JavaScripts, where HTML code inside a quoted string can also cause incorrect Syntax highlighting.

It's not a showstopper, though.

[madmacgames]

not its not a showstopper but it sure is annoying if for example you're debugging a script and have larger chunks of mixed code commented out, it can really slow down the debugging process cause you can't tell just by glancing what is commented out and what is not.

PS. yes I did submit this bug to BBedit team.

[DavideMac]

So far, no one is doing web dev without BBEdit. From what I'm seeing it's BBEdit and nothing else or a little WYSIWYG with a lot of BBEdit. Yet I still don't understand why. Why not do it all in DW? I mean it is a little slower (I'm using DWMX on Jag) but it has a very good code editor that any one can use to "tweak and clean up code". What does BBEdit have that DW doesn't?

[schk]

Originally posted by DavideMac:
So far, no one is doing web dev without BBEdit. From what I'm seeing it's BBEdit and nothing else or a little WYSIWYG with a lot of BBEdit. Yet I still don't understand why. Why not do it all in DW? I mean it is a little slower (I'm using DWMX on Jag) but it has a very good code editor that any one can use to "tweak and clean up code". What does BBEdit have that DW doesn't?

I do web development without BBedit. It really has no compelling features that sets itself from other code editors. If you are strictly a hand coder like me, huge toolbar with buttons to do various code offer no benefit whatsoever and neither does a close current tag feature. Nothing beats HomeSite (PC only) for code editing and it's Mac alternative is the code editor in DW. I think due to the slowness and added bloat of DW, many use BBedit instead. I really don't see why since it lacks some big time saving features. When I first got my Mac, the first thing I checked out wsa BBedit since that is all that hand coders rave about on the Mac. Of course I was immensely disappointed and see no need to ever install BBedit.

[Simon Mundy]

Originally posted by schk:
... I really don't see why since it lacks some big time saving features.

Such as?

When I first got my Mac, the first thing I checked out wsa BBedit since that is all that hand coders rave about on the Mac. Of course I was immensely disappointed and see no need to ever install BBedit.

It would be interesting to know why you feel this way. Is there a Mac product that's better suited (IYHO?)

[bens1901]

Just to toss in my 2-cents on the IDE discussion... I use DreamWeaverMX and vi on OS10.3 Years ago I learned to code with a text-editor only, so I still code most of it by hand. DWMX does give me quick and easy management of the files, images, and maintaining a site on the overall aspect. I do most of my individual coding of a file in DW or in vi. So, I guess I use a combination.

My Advice: figure out what approach to programming you do, then find an application configuration that suites your needs and styles.

[schk]

Originally posted by Simon Mundy:
Such as?



It would be interesting to know why you feel this way. Is there a Mac product that's better suited (IYHO?)

When you are proficient in HTML and other languages such as PHP and only code by hand, the biggest time savers are auto tag completion and code insight. BBedit has a button or a key that you can set that will close current tag. If I'm coding along, the last thing I want to do is hit a key combination to close the current tag I'm within. To me, an editor should allow a good workflow which means no interruptions from typing - the close current tag feature does nothing for that. Code insight is good in case you forget the syntax of a certain function in PHP or want a quicker way to input attributes into an HTML tag all without leaving your hands from the keyboard. If BBedit touts itself as an HTML editor, how the hell can it get by without some sort of file browser window? I have a 12" PB and limited screen space, I don't want to open up a finder window for each site I'm working on and try to optimally place it on my screen every time. And for such simple things as dragging an image into the code editor, I don't want to be presented with some stupid pop-up window asking me to set attributes, I want the code created with the proper height/width sizes border=0 and a blank alt attribute.

I find that only DW or Golive's code editors are good alternatives since they both have features that are truly beneficial. I find it odd how there are so many reviews of BBedit which say it is such a great text editor which automatically makes it's HTML editing functions just as great (I only remember reading one recent review where someone actually stated that BBedit's code editing functions pale greatly in comparison to Golive and DW). I think for very small sites and just quick editing of files, BBedit may be fine. But for any large scale site it's not practical, at least for me. But like the previous person said, it's about finding what works for you.

[Thor]

how the hell can it get by without some sort of file browser window?

File > New... > Disk Browser

or

File > New... > File Group
(You can create a "File Group" of your web site)

I don't want to be presented with some stupid pop-up window asking me to set attributes, I want the code created with the proper height/width sizes border=0 and a blank alt attribute.

The first time you drag & drop an image, set the dialog to "use blank alt attribute", "include size", and "border=0".

Thereafter, drag & drop will behave as you want. (You'll still have to hit Enter/Return to confirm, though)

I WOULD like to see BBEdit regain focus after dropping an image.

[schk]

Originally posted by Thor:
File > New... > Disk Browser

or

File > New... > File Group
(You can create a "File Group" of your web site)

I did look at the Disk Browser and it did not act anything remotely like a file browsing window. Basically I edit multiple sites and switch back and forth between them. So I should be able to browse up and down a directory structure and open up files from there and drag images from there into the code editor. That plus the fact it is a huge window pane with the file listing and preview of the file underneath. Maybe I'm missing something simple, but I don't think the disk browser was like what I needed.

[DavideMac]

I tend to agree with schk, BBEdit is a nice editor and that's it. Everything that can be done and needs to be done for web dev is done well on DW. No need for BBEdit, especially at that price. As far as that speed issue thingy, well, I don't knock off 24 websites per day so it's not a huge problem. And frankly this speed issue thing in sotware is really starting to annoy me cause all I see most of the time is poor quality made real fast. I personally like quality and stabilty over speed. Who the heck wants to rush anyway.

[madmacgames]

Originally posted by DavideMac:
As far as that speed issue thingy, well, I don't knock off 24 websites per day so it's not a huge problem. And frankly this speed issue thing in sotware is really starting to annoy me cause all I see most of the time is poor quality made real fast. I personally like quality and stabilty over speed. Who the heck wants to rush anyway.

Personally, when I was talking about the speed of DWMX2004, I was talking about if you have more than 4 or 5 documents open at once, DWMX04 will start crawling like a turtle... scrolling in code view becomes very "unsmooth" - it jumps all over the place. Selecting code is very jagged and rough as well. Switching between documents is very rough. It does dot work well with Expose with +4 or 5 documents open - you goto the open documents expose view and select a different document, and you are taken back to the one you were just looking at.

That's what I meant by speed. Yes opening the program is kinda slow, but I don't mind that so much... it's the way the program starts behaving with +4-5 documents open at once. I've got a RevB 1Ghz 12" powerbook... this should not be happening... poorly coded programming IMO...

PS. I have not experienced this with DWMX; just with DWMX2004 and Panther.

[DavideMac]

Point taken......I haven't uprgraded to 04 yet because of what everyone has been saying about it. I thought maybe it was just a few people having problems but the issues seem to be widespread. I think I'm sticking with DWMX for now and see what happens in the future with the other guys (BBEdit, GoLive etc.).

Thanks for the insight....

[schk]

Originally posted by DavideMac:
No need for BBEdit, especially at that price.

I completely forgot about the price issue. BBedit is ridiculously overpriced for what it is/offers. Even their educational priced version is $119. I could not justify paying $179 for the retail version.

[vsurfer]

I'm still banging away with DW4, which I like for site management, and very bummed to hear DWMX04 is slow. (Meanwhile DW4 in classic can be a real pain.)

I use BBE lite for occasional code tweak -- or for when I crash DW with some dumb nonexisting or recursive frame boo-boo.

If you have some time on your hands and fancy a walk on the wild side, do something a little different (but not necessarily fast or convenient) you could try messing with Bluefish & Mozilla, under X11. Fun for a changeup, and both free as the wind.

[LfGrdMike]

Don't forget BBEdit is expandable. You can add plug-ings and glossary features.

I got BBEdit 6.5 and when 7.5 is out I am getting it.