[starman]

Is this some sort of sick trend?

Mike

[Nonsuch]

Sadly, yes it is.

From a recent Salon article:
A new study from A.T. Kearney, a management consulting company owned by Electronic Data Systems, predicts that in the next five years U.S. banks, brokerages and other financial service companies will relocate more than 500,000 jobs offshore -- fully 8 percent of their workforce. According to A.T. Kearney's research, the jobs that will move away include "high-end internal functions" such as financial analysis, research, regulatory reporting, accounting and graphic design.

[malvolio]

Welcome to the future.

[Superchicken]

Best part is you support these companies

[Skywalkers new Hand]

I can't blame the companies though. I mean Western workers are lazy and expensive (not all of them though), they can get the same job done for much less over sea.

That is why everything is "made in China"

[starman]

Originally posted by Skywalkers new Hand:
I can't blame the companies though. I mean Western workers are lazy and expensive (not all of them though), they can get the same job done for much less over sea.

That is why everything is "made in China"

That's a terrible thing to say (well, coming from you I expect no less). This was a tight-knit group that busted their ass to work on making sure everything worked perfectly. None of them were lazy, and every single one of them went the extra mile for every project they worked on.

When you're replaced with a monkey that can do the web sites you make, maybe you'll understand.

Mike

[Skywalkers new Hand]

Originally posted by starman:
That's a terrible thing to say (well, coming from you I expect no less). This was a tight-knit group that busted their ass to work on making sure everything worked perfectly. None of them were lazy, and every single one of them went the extra mile for every project they worked on.

When you're replaced with a monkey that can do the web sites you make, maybe you'll understand.

Mike

Fine, try to insult me but it is the truth and your backlash proves that you know it also.

I assume they were programmers as many programmers want $50,000 to do their job. Sure they might be nice people and some might even work their ass off but they are too expensive!

If you can get the same job done in India in half the time and for half the cost you would be stupid not to do it. Or are you being racist.

Oh and no super monkeys bread yet to replace your web masterpieces so no worries

[Nebrie]

Originally posted by starman:
That's a terrible thing to say (well, coming from you I expect no less). This was a tight-knit group that busted their ass to work on making sure everything worked perfectly. None of them were lazy, and every single one of them went the extra mile for every project they worked on.

When you're replaced with a monkey that can do the web sites you make, maybe you'll understand.

Mike

been there. It sucks, but gotta move on. In general, Americans are lazier. Even if you're more hard working than they are, you still cost way too much. They can easily hire five people for less and make up for the productivity loss that way. There's really nothing we can do about it.

The cycle continues too... A lot of companies that outsourced to India are now going to even lower cost areas such as the Philippines. Quote one funny Indian minister "But the quality won't be as good".

[sniffer]

Cheap labor isn't everything. Good technology is nice to. Where was that article from IBM's factory again?.. (oh I forgot. Never mind)

[iWrite]

We did an article on this recently.

Want to know who the largest out-of-country employer is?

GE

GE has turned ALL of its customer service operations over to Indian employees. That includes GE Credit Services, etc.

SO, in addition to the United States losing jobs, you can now thank GE for sending all of your sensitive PERSONAL information to the computers of people overseas in India...your social security number, your asset information, EVERYTHING.

GE Credit Services accounts for 65% of ALL credit held in this country!

Getting some jewelry from Zales on credit? It goes through GE Capitol Credit.

Getting some new furniture? 80% of all furniture financed goes through GE Credit Services.

Getting a new computer? It's financed through GE Credit Services.

The list goes on and on.

The president and Tom Ridge are so concerned about national security and internet security then they shouldn't f*cking send our citizens' personal data over to third world countries.

This is a HUGE issue.

EVERYONE HERE SHOULD BE VERY CONCERNED. Know why? GE Indian counterparts are able to access other credit card companies' databases through an agreement they all have with each other so even if you don't have GE credit in some way, shape, or form, they can STILL access your account(s)...from India.

It's the same as selling weapons technology to China in my opinion. No different.

It's disgusting, George Bush knows about it, but because GE is so big he apparently doesn't care.

[starman]

You speak completely out of ignorance, and no, they were NOT programmers. We, the programmers, are the ones who are keeping our jobs.

Mike

[Skywalkers new Hand]

Originally posted by sniffer:
Cheap labor isn't everything. Good technology is nice to. Where was that article from IBM's factory again?..

So far people are moving business to India for tech support and programming as it takes more taught knowledge rather then talent.

People in the creative market don't have to worry about it except for companies who really don't care about design and who wants to work for them anyway.

[malvolio]

Originally posted by Skywalkers new Hand:

I assume they were programmers as many programmers want $50,000 to do their job. Sure they might be nice people and some might even work their ass off but they are too expensive!

Pretty rash assumption.
I saw a story on the news the other day about Columbia House, the CD-club folks, exporting jobs. They interviewed 5 women who had worked in the returns department for 20 to 30 years. Hardly expensive programmers, but when 3rd World workers will sign on for $5 a week, they were "too expensive."
What these companies don't consider is, what happens when there is no more American middle class to buy their overpriced cr@p.

[iWrite]

This is a very good thread.

I hope everyone spreads the information about GE Credit Services to everyone they know.

When we finished the piece and tried to discuss it with GE they threatened to sue the network -- it's still on "hold."

Don't believe me?

Call GE Credit Services and ask them if they outsource their accounts to India -- including Americans' private information:

800-333-1071

[The Placid Casual]

This is all to common here in the UK... Loads of jobs in customer support (and call centres in general) is being offloaded to India to save money...

I guess while companies value saving money over customer service, we can expect these things to happen... Sad.

Sorry about your colleagues Mike.

[MikeM33]

This is definitely one issue I have a major problem with. I simply cannot believe that companies can get away with this sort of undercutting B.S.

If these trends continue you'd better own your own business or you'll be S.O.L. Sadly, not all of us have the kind of capitol to just start a business on the snap of a finger.

From a purely financial standpoint, these companies are getting thier monies worth (or think they are). Cheap labor is what it's all going to boil down to in the future. I can only hope that many companies will realize that they are sacrificing quality and change thier ways.

It's crap like this that really makes me wish I was born 20-50 yrs earlier. Not only did Americans have jobs that paid well, they had that thing my parents and grandparents referred to as "job security". Younger generations these days would be like; "Job Security? WTF is that?!?" Those days are gone. now.

We'd all better start practicing asking the following:
"Do you want fries with that?"

MikeM

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by iWrite:
The president and Tom Ridge are so concerned about national security and internet security then they shouldn't f*cking send our citizens' personal data over to third world countries.

This is a HUGE issue.

EVERYONE HERE SHOULD BE VERY CONCERNED. Know why? GE Indian counterparts are able to access other credit card companies' databases through an agreement they all have with each other so even if you don't have GE credit in some way, shape, or form, they can STILL access your account(s)...from India.

It's the same as selling weapons technology to China in my opinion. No different.

I don't understand your problem. There is no difference between an Indian employee and an US employee of the same company, is there? Same procedures, same equipment, same duties.

I've got tons of financial and personal information about myself held in the US. Do I make a fuss? I can't find any reason to do so.

[iWrite]

Malvolio
What these companies don't consider is, what happens when there is no more American middle class to buy their overpriced cr@p.

That's a GREAT point.

Now, here's another angle:

GE owns 65% of the credit in this country (personal credit). They are outsourcing jobs to India -- 77% of all customer service positions are now in INDIA.

Malvolio made a great point: GE is taking jobs away from honest hard-working Americans who are paying their exorbitant interest rates and buying American goods...then taking away the jobs that pay for that interest and the goods.

Jobs are disappearing.

What does a person do when he or she loses her job to someone overseas?

Files bankruptcy.

I think anyone who even remotely thinks about filing for bankruptcy (thinking they qualify of course) because they are overwhelmed and overextended from paying interest rates SHOULD file for bankruptcy ASAP...

Because right now, unbeknownst to most Americans, the big credit companies and banks are working HARD, lobbying their asses off, to get the president to change the federal guidelines and rules for bankruptcy.

Now, guess who is the biggest supporter of outlawing bankruptcy for consumers as we know it?

GE!

They get rid of our jobs by giving them away, we still pay astronomical interest rates to keep those bastards in their fat-cat management jobs, and then when the common person cannot afford to live and pay them their blood-money, they then work as hard as possible to make it impossible for the average joe to seek some protection from being milked for every dime.

It's DISGUSTING.

[Nonsuch]

Originally posted by Skywalkers new Hand:
I assume they were programmers as many programmers want $50,000 to do their job. Sure they might be nice people and some might even work their ass off but they are too expensive!

If you can get the same job done in India in half the time and for half the cost you would be stupid not to do it. Or are you being racist.

No, what's stupid is companies pursuing policies that may help the bottom line in the short-term, while in the long run slowly gutting the middle class. Who do these companies think is going to buy their products and services after this country's best-trained workers can no longer earn a middle-class wage?

From the same article:
"It makes perfect sense for the individual company, and it makes no sense for the U.S. economy," says Alan Tonelson, author of "The Race to the Bottom: Why a Worldwide Worker Surplus and Uncontrolled Free Trade Are Sinking American Living Standards."

An individual company may cut costs and increase profits by sending jobs overseas, says Tonelson, but in the long run that will erode the huge market that they depend on most -- the buying power of U.S. consumers. "If all of this outsourcing to India and China and Russia, if it was mainly serving those economies, it would be different, but much of this outsourcing is serving the U.S. market."

In other words, in the effort to make goods and services more cheaply, American companies may be undermining their own long-term interests. "American industry has been firing its best customers, which are its own workers," says Tonelson. "It's as if these companies expect the American consumer to keep on consuming."

(Ignoring the racism flamebait)

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by iWrite:


They get rid of our jobs by giving them away, we still pay astronomical interest rates to keep those bastards in their fat-cat management jobs, and then when the common person cannot afford to live and pay them their blood-money, they then work as hard as possible to make it impossible for the average joe to seek some protection from being milked for every dime.

It's DISGUSTING.

Nobody forces you to borrow money on your credit card.

[iWrite]

I don't understand your problem. There is no difference between an Indian employee and an US employee of the same company, is there? Same procedures, same equipment, same duties.

YES! They aren't EMPLOYEES, per se -- they're outsourced companies that are given computers that can access the data.

They're just hired flunkies in control of Americans' social security numbers, financial data, bank account and checking account information, loan information, where you live, what you drive, etc., so forth, and so on.

You don't know who that person is on the other end, you know? For all you know, he or she is a terrorist hiding out from Pakistan, you know? If you WERE a terrorist and you wanted to victimize certain people you could get one of those jobs and Voila! You've got all kinds of sensitive information.

And people wonder why internet credit card fraud is rampant?

[starman]

Well, for me personally, since I'm watching this sh*t go down first hand, I'm not going to spend as much as I used to. I might be here another 10 years, maybe 10 weeks. The fact is that there are a LOT of people here that have doctorates and wrote books (some of which I'm sure people here have read). But that's all irrelevant now that they're firing the best from one department because it's cheaper in India. Great. That means those of us that are scared about losing our job, even though we're damn good at what we do, won't spend money on "the little things" anymore.

I bought a digital camera last week, and that will probably be the LAST thing I buy for a long, long time.

Mike

[MikeM33]

Originally posted by malvolio:
What these companies don't consider is, what happens when there is no more American middle class to buy their overpriced cr@p.

EXACTLY!

I forgot to add this to my previous post. Thanks for posting this. This sort of thing may work in the short-term, but later-on it's going to bite these companies in the butt big-time.

MikeM

[iWrite]

Mastrap:


You're STILL not understanding it?

Someone walks into Zales jewelry store. The Limited clothing store. Rooms To Go furniture store. They want to buy something. The store employee says, "Hey, if you open a credit card with us you'll save 15% on your purchase today." People agree. They get their credit card that is for that particular store approved by GE Capital Cons CardCo -- supposedly based in either Ohio or Louisville (they're in both places) and everything seems fine.

BUT, the information that is on that account is made available to a third party company OVERSEAS to India.

So, if a charge appears on your card that is questionable and you call about it, you're calling ANOTHER OUTSOURCED COMPANY in INDIA -- who has all of your personal data right there in front of them.

I have a credit card with a $50K limit on it. I have it paid off. I don't want someone knowing I have a credit card with that kind of available credit, but if I use it for, say, dinner and a charge appears on it and I didn't make it (perhaps an extra 0 for example) and I call about it, that person sitting in another part of the world, a very POOR part of the world, now has my equity and assets, credit information, EVERYTHING in front of them.

I don't want my personal AMERICAN information farmed out overseas.

I think that companies that do such a thing should be required by law to disclose that Americans' personal and sensitive information is being dispersed to another COUNTRY and they should be required to divulge that information BEFORE you get a credit card.

Remember, most people won't even know that they're being given credit through GE Capital -- they just know that they're applying for credit at a particular store and don't realize that it's not the store giving them credit, it's GE.

[Phanguye]

Originally posted by MikeM33:
It's crap like this that really makes me wish I was born 20-50 yrs earlier. Not only did Americans have jobs that paid well, they had that thing my parents and grandparents referred to as "job security". Younger generations these days would be like; "Job Security? WTF is that?!?" Those days are gone. now.

except then you would be mad because we were losing jobs to the japanese (tv industry anyone)???

it doesn't really matter in the long run anyway, low skill jobs get moved overseas, while new high skill jobs get created here...

if we had protectionism we would still be driving huge GMs and watching shitty quality tvs

[xi_hyperon]

I work at the North American headquarters for a large company, which also happens to have a manufacturing plant next door. The plant has been here for about 23 years, and management recently announced it will be closing next year. Why? Production is being moved to China.

In addition, all departments here are getting thinned out, and it doesn't matter what level you are. People ranging from admin assistants to VPs have been given their slip in the last few weeks, and it's not over.

The way they are handling it is especially sneaky. Rather than let everyone go all at once, they are trickling out people a few at a time. That way there's no write-up in the press about a big layoff. In the meantime, over the course of months, everyone feels like a deer in a herd that's slowly being thinned out. Who's got the crosshairs on their head today?

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by iWrite:
Mastrap:


You're STILL not understanding it?

Someone walks into Zales jewelry store. The Limited clothing store. Rooms To Go furniture store. They want to buy something. The store employee says, "Hey, if you open a credit card with us you'll save 15% on your purchase today." People agree. They get their credit card that is for that particular store approved by GE Capital Cons CardCo -- supposedly based in either Ohio or Louisville (they're in both places) and everything seems fine.

BUT, the information that is on that account is made available to a third party company OVERSEAS to India.

So, if a charge appears on your card that is questionable and you call about it, you're calling ANOTHER OUTSOURCED COMPANY in INDIA -- who has all of your personal data right there in front of them.

I have a credit card with a $50K limit on it. I have it paid off. I don't want someone knowing I have a credit card with that kind of available credit, but if I use it for, say, dinner and a charge appears on it and I didn't make it (perhaps an extra 0 for example) and I call about it, that person sitting in another part of the world, a very POOR part of the world, now has my equity and assets, credit information, EVERYTHING in front of them.

I don't want my personal AMERICAN information farmed out overseas.

I think that companies that do such a thing should be required by law to disclose that Americans' personal and sensitive information is being dispersed to another COUNTRY and they should be required to divulge that information BEFORE you get a credit card.

Remember, most people won't even know that they're being given credit through GE Capital -- they just know that they're applying for credit at a particular store and don't realize that it's not the store giving them credit, it's GE.

Maybe I am slow today but are you saying that you do not trust your bank's employees purely due to the fact that they are Indian? Or are you trying to tell me that American employees are more trustworthy purely because they are Americans?

I don't get it, sorry.

[Angus_D]

Originally posted by sniffer:
Cheap labor isn't everything. Good technology is nice to. Where was that article from IBM's factory again?.. (oh I forgot. Never mind)

If you're talking about their new fab plant, that's all nice and dandy, but instead of having a nice load of Americans employed there, or a nice load of Indians employed there, they hardly have anybody employed there. It's all automated. So you see, the way it goes is you get replaced by something cheaper. Either that's someone living in India or a robot.

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by iWrite:
YES! They aren't EMPLOYEES, per se -- they're outsourced companies that are given computers that can access the data.

They're just hired flunkies in control of Americans' social security numbers, financial data, bank account and checking account information, loan information, where you live, what you drive, etc., so forth, and so on.

You don't know who that person is on the other end, you know? For all you know, he or she is a terrorist hiding out from Pakistan, you know? If you WERE a terrorist and you wanted to victimize certain people you could get one of those jobs and Voila! You've got all kinds of sensitive information.

And people wonder why internet credit card fraud is rampant?

Oh, sorry, now I get it. I didn't read that post at first. You've taken a paranoia pill. Washed down with a mild solution of racism.

Please.

[Link]

Originally posted by Skywalkers new Hand:
Fine, try to insult me but it is the truth and your backlash proves that you know it also.

I assume they were programmers as many programmers want $50,000 to do their job. Sure they might be nice people and some might even work their ass off but they are too expensive!

If you can get the same job done in India in half the time and for half the cost you would be stupid not to do it. Or are you being racist.

Oh and no super monkeys bread yet to replace your web masterpieces so no worries

Your opinion is extremely flawed.

In the US, if you have a family.. that 50k is hardly going to be enough to own a house in the right area, feed your family, and still have enough money left to pay for bills and etc.

While "lazy american people" (they're citizens of the usa.. anyone from canada to argentina can be american), might be expensive.. it's because the whole damn cost of living is expensive.

Besides that what kind of support and help are these companies giving us when they pay people overseas to do work? It actually annoys the hell out of me when I call somewhere and get a stubborn biggoted person who can't speak english properly.

Oh yeah.. and denying indian US citizens because of their origin is racist.. deciding to keep hiring people in the US even though they are more expensive is not.. that's supporting your own country.

[Angus_D]

Originally posted by Phanguye:
it doesn't really matter in the long run anyway, low skill jobs get moved overseas, while new high skill jobs get created here...

I think you're missing the point. It's now HIGH SKILL JOBS which are being moved overseas too. There are an awful lot of extremely talented and intelligent people in the rest of the world, ya know. In fact, some of them may even be better at your job than you are.

Why is it that people don't even think of that?

[starman]

I just want to mention something here:

Someone with a doctorate is getting replaced.

Mike

[Link]

Originally posted by Angus_D:
I think you're missing the point. It's now HIGH SKILL JOBS which are being moved overseas too. There are an awful lot of extremely talented and intelligent people in the rest of the world, ya know. In fact, some of them may even be better at your job than you are.

Why is it that people don't even think of that?

Because the companies in their own countries should be responsible for their jobs.. or branches of these companies that are specifically for that country.

I think it is the ultimate trashing when one has spent years in college, many working hard at a job, and gets the boot because they live in the US.. if you know what I mean.

These company execs aren't doing it for ethics.. they're doing it for extra profit.. if boeing could make their planes legally more dangerous and knew it'd kill people (but maximize profits), they'd do it.

[Phanguye]

Originally posted by Angus_D:
I think you're missing the point. It's now HIGH SKILL JOBS which are being moved overseas too. There are an awful lot of extremely talented and intelligent people in the rest of the world, ya know. In fact, some of them may even be better at your job than you are.

Why is it that people don't even think of that?

ok that is fine... but then if someone is better at the job then why does the company have the responsibility to keep a less qualified worker that costs more... they dont

and those jobs arent really that ground breaking and high tech, graphic design, coding (its not like decent code exists outside acadamia), answering phones...

[iWrite]

Don't even START with the whole racism issue.

I am most certainly not a racist.

I'm going on the record as saying that some of THE smartest people that I've EVER met are people from India.

I'm not paranoid, I'm making my point and opinion known. I'm ardently pro-American. Apparently you're not American so of course you wouldn't understand that sentiment.

The American economy is in the toilet, people are out of work, and companies that depend on Americans to keep buying their products are shipping the jobs away from the people who depend on those jobs to pay for the goods.

[Phanguye]

Originally posted by Link:
Because the companies in their own countries should be responsible for their jobs.. or branches of these companies that are specifically for that country.

no they are responsible to the people who own stock in their companies to make the most money...

[Angus_D]

Originally posted by Phanguye:
and those jobs arent really that ground breaking and high tech, graphic design, coding (its not like decent code exists outside acadamia), answering phones...

Evidently, you have no idea what you're talking about, and lack the foresight to see the implications of this trend. You have my sympathy.

[starman]

Originally posted by Phanguye:
ok that is fine... but then if someone is better at the job then why does the company have the responsibility to keep a less qualified worker that costs more... they dont

Because if this trend keeps up, we're going to be a country of farmers again.

and those jobs arent really that ground breaking and high tech, graphic design, coding (its not like decent code exists outside acadamia), answering phones...

GOOD coding isn't as easy as you might think. You should see some of the sh*t that newbies write. The complex stuff we do here is enough to make your head spin.

Mike

[Angus_D]

Originally posted by Link:
I think it is the ultimate trashing when one has spent years in college, many working hard at a job, and gets the boot because they live in the US.. if you know what I mean.

And your point here is...?

These company execs aren't doing it for ethics.. they're doing it for extra profit.. if boeing could make their planes legally more dangerous and knew it'd kill people (but maximize profits), they'd do it.

As someone else just pointed out, this is how capitalism works.

[xtal]

Originally posted by Mastrap:
Oh, sorry, now I get it. I didn't read that post at first. You've taken a paranoia pill. Washed down with a mild solution of racism.

Please.

Agreed.

For those who have not visited India recently, it has a burgeoning technology sector, as well as huge advancements in the pharmaceutical industry.

Oh yeah, it's the world's largest democracy too. Nice place, I suggest you visit before erroneously equating the workforce there with simians.

[Phanguye]

Originally posted by Angus_D:
Evidently, you have no idea what you're talking about, and lack the foresight to see the implications of this trend. You have my sympathy.

oh ****... i guess i should just stop getting my degree in economics and tell university of chicago that i have no idea what i am talking about and cant attend to get my doctorate

Originally posted by starman:
GOOD coding isn't as easy as you might think. You should see some of the sh*t that newbies write. The complex stuff we do here is enough to make your head spin.

Computer Science was my other major... and i understand that good coding is an art as well as a science, i was commenting on how the nature of get things done as soon as possible, as cheaply as possible in the corporate world tends to cause a large code base, of not so good code

[iWrite]

People who automatically equate arguments about not sending jobs overseas to foreign countries out of concern for the American economy to RACISM have limited intelligence.

This is NOT an argument about whether or not Indian people are good or bad. Let me tell you, I HAVE spent time there -- probably two years over the last 15 years. You can't tell me what that country has or does not have. Don't try to paint a picture of how wonderfully cosmopolitan it is, clean streets, happy and educated population, etc., because it would be a lie.

Yes, people are smart there and I like the people there, but the large cities are overpopulated and there is a lot of disease and poverty. The rural areas are another story altogether because the people are completely different -- less educated.

But, be that as it may, the same applies here and it doesn't have a thing to do with racism -- it has to do with where Americans' jobs are going, PERIOD.

I'm not even going to respond to idiots who play the race card out of an inability to stay on topic and I suggest that others don't either.

[Link]

very good points, phanguye

From what I've learned.. website and program coding is very much an art, in most cases the more you enjoy it (and work at it artistically), the better the result is

After all if you do both coding AND graphics not only are you making the images but going through the art of putting them together

[starman]

Well, I don't want people to think I started this topic out of racism. I certainly DID NOT. I'm more concerned with the fact that Americans are losing their jobs.

Mike

[Phanguye]

Originally posted by starman:
Well, I don't want people to think I started this topic out of racism. I certainly DID NOT. I'm more concerned with the fact that Americans are losing their jobs.

Mike

AGREED... people this is a great topic, because it requires the balance of the economic optimum and a social ideal... please lets discuss this

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by starman:
Well, I don't want people to think I started this topic out of racism. I certainly DID NOT. I'm more concerned with the fact that Americans are losing their jobs.

Mike

Mike, I didn't think that you did for one second.

[palmberg]

Originally posted by xtal:
Nice place, I suggest you visit before erroneously equating the workforce there with simians.

Hmm. Too humid.

[starman]

Originally posted by Mastrap:
Mike, I didn't think that you did for one second.

Well, the thread seems to be leaning that way juuuuuust a bit so I wanted to go on the record before any misconceptions bit me in the ass.

Mike

[iWrite]

No, apparently he thinks I'm a racist, even though he doesn't know me, know who I associate with, know anything about where I've lived or what I've done all of my life, or anything else except that he wants to label me a racist because he's short on intelligence, apparently.

Have a good day, mousetrap.

[Phanguye]

i want to propose this fabel:

Situation 1: Open Market
joe works in a tv factory. he has a child ralph. when ralph is 16 the factory is forced to close because of harsh competition from the japanese. joe is forced to get a lesser job, and the family barily gets by, however ralph is awared a full scholarship to the university of his choice and goes on to work in pharmacuticals(sp.) Joes work helps invent new drugs that help millions of people.

Situation 2: Protected Market
ralph is 16 and hates school, plus his father has gotten him a summer job at the factory, once the summer ends ralph decides to stay at the factory. he lives there and has a comfortable life.


which situation is better? (yes i know it is simplified)