[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20020501-5587072.htm

Highlights:

JENIN, West Bank � Palestinian officials yesterday put the death toll at 56 in the two-week Israeli assault on Jenin, dropping claims of a massacre of 500 that had sparked demands for a U.N. investigation.

The official Palestinian body count, which is not disproportionate to the 33 Israeli soldiers killed in the incursion, **let me guess at the hands of unarmed women and children, right?** was disclosed by Kadoura Mousa Kadoura, the director of Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement for the northern West Bank, after a team of four Palestinian-appointed investigators reported to him in his Jenin office.

500 down to 56 eh? (That is even if we can trust this number- the Palestinians also admit that some of their own people were killed as a result of their own booby-traps gone wrong- and who knows how many others as political victims).

So how do the Palestinians being forthcoming and honest with death-toll guesstimates, compare with those evil, awful Israelis?

Two weeks ago, when European and particularly London newspapers were reporting estimates of "hundreds" massacred, Israeli sources in Washington said they expected the Palestinian toll to reach "45 to 55."

Off by 1 rather than 444 non-existent people. Hummm let's see here... who do I conclude is more likely to tell me what's closer to the truth concerning matters in this region- the drama-queen Arab world and their willing accomplices in the western press who <sarcasm>obviously WAIT until they have the confirmed facts to avoid the risk of spewing propaganda </sarcasm>... or those oh-so-evil Israelis? Humm... this could be a hard one!

But hey, can't be too hard on the Western press. It must be hard not to fall for such shrewd propaganda tactics as this:

The propaganda war continues, meanwhile, in the refugee camp itself. Families whose homes had been destroyed were ordered to sit and lie inside tents pitched near the destruction, to be available for interviews and filming with foreign reporters and photographers. At dusk, with the press opportunities concluded, they returned to houses offered to them in the undamaged city or in the rest of the refugee camp.

And the whole camp was leveled to the ground eh? Right.

The destruction, pictured graphically on television, appeared linked to Israeli bulldozing of the houses from which the remnant of the resistance forces were firing.

In fact, it covers the size of a large football field and constitutes only about 10 percent of the housing in the camp, and a far smaller proportion of the housing in the city, which was largely left untouched by the Israeli incursion.

Understand one thing, I don't think it's wonderful and great that even 56 people had to die in this battle, but let's face it. Those of you drama-queens who were spouting propaganda right and left and portraying the Israeli side as the return of the Nazi Blitzkrieg... you were HAD, plain and simple. Congratulations! It was good for the Palestinian spin-doctors... was it good for you?

[rjenkinson]

seems like all the more reason to let the UN inspection team in.

-r.

[TNproud2b]

the folks that strap explosives to themselves so they won't be easily noticed when walking near crowds of people - in order to maximize the density of innocent bystanders - are probably not going to to be the same folks that possess the integrity to tell you the truth.

I could be wrong, but it ain't likely.

[Face Ache]

Can I point out that after the WTC the Americans were saying 10,000 dead (in the media and on these forums - repeatedly), while the Red Cross put the figure around 2,772.

At the time I was posting here that the figure was closer to 2,772 but this was not met with much enthusiasm. The 10,000 myth continued for some time.

I believe the final toll was closer to somthing like 2,882. The Red Cross figure was much closer (one week after the WTC) than the US Government/media reports for six months.

I don't know. It seems to me that being attacked can perhaps make you exaggerate to get people on-side. I don't think it is anything to do with being a Palestinian. I think it's human nature. Just like it's human nature to talk down the bad things you've done.

The truth is always in the middle.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally posted by Face Ache:
<STRONG>Can I point out that after the WTC the Americans were saying 10,000 dead (in the media and on these forums - repeatedly), while the Red Cross put the figure around 2,772.

At the time I was posting here that the figure was closer to 2,772 but this was not met with much enthusiasm. The 10,000 myth continued for some time.

I believe the final toll was closer to somthing like 2,882. The Red Cross figure was much closer (one week after the WTC) than the US Government/media reports for six months.

I don't know. It seems to me that being attacked can perhaps make you exaggerate to get people on-side. I don't think it is anything to do with being a Palestinian. I think it's human nature. Just like it's human nature to talk down the bad things you've done.

The truth is always in the middle.</STRONG>

That's a pretty good example Face Ache. Most people didn't find it all that hard to believe 10,000 people could have died in the WTC disaster. (Also, though I'm sure there were estimates of 10,000, I saw many more closer to 5,000 and thereabouts). None of it was all that unreasonable hours- even days and weeks- after the disaster. It took time to get any grasp on the body count. For weeks afterwards, people weren't even sure of just how many people had gotten out or were missing, etc.

Also, I don't classify people's overestimates of the WTC as pure propaganda. One thing I've gathered... when totally without warning, you crash jet-liners into and collaspe two of the world's tallest buildings in a city the size of New York, it's anybody's guess how many people you're going to take out. It's not really like we all had much experience with that scenario before then to go by. Hey, I�m happy the Red Cross was able to pull some sort of magic number out of a hat so soon.

Also, is there ANY comparison at all of these situations, based on actual provocation? Thousands of people- the majority of who it's a safe bet never fired a shot at anyone in the Middle East-sitting in their offices being killed out of the blue... vs. people who live amid other people who strap bombs to themselves, kill civilians on the other side, and harbor armed fighters- being killed in a retaliation strike in which the other side took pretty heavy losses too. I really don't see any moral equivalence what-so-ever, but hey, that's just me.

As for the truth usually being somewhere in the middle... yup. That's usually the case with most things. In this case however, the truth wasn't somewhere in the middle� it was actually with the Israelis all along who practically hit it on the head- "45 to 55."

Although I don't agree with, nor justify the Palestinian tactics in this conflict, I can see from their warped point of view why they would want the propaganda machine to spin in their favor. I can understand them being angry and emotional in the context of Israeli actions against them at the moment they are actually happening (Although overall, I maintain that Palestinian anger would be much better directed towards Arafat, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, most of the Arab nations, and all the other liars and charlatans that have been selling them down the river for years). In that context, I can understand them wanting to jack up the death toll numbers in order to garner sympathy.

What I find far less excusable, is the total bullcrap that's been coming from people who **should** have known better- people in the west attempting to create spin for the Palestinians and playing right into the hands of their spin doctors. People calling the Israelis Nazis and spewing the most ridiculous crap against the Israeli side of the issue. Overall, much of it has just been shameless.

[Face Ache]

I agree but people believe what they want to believe (on both sides).

The IDF have done some naughty things in Jenin. I think there are still bodies to be found under rubble and they admit to vandalising and looting.
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/ob...?itemNo=157479

But the Palestinians (and their supporters) only hurt their own cause by exaggerating.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Face Ache:
<STRONG>I agree but people believe what they want to believe (on both sides).

The IDF have done some naughty things in Jenin. I think there are still bodies to be found under rubble and they admit to vandalising and looting.
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/ob...?itemNo=157479

But the Palestinians (and their supporters) only hurt their own cause by exaggerating.</STRONG>

The ones most hurt are some of the media, especially papers such as The Independent. Their eagerness to scream massacre really exposed their bias, imho.

[UNTeMac]

That kind of propaganda seems all too common coming from the Palestinian side.

Does anyone else think it was strange that those who were holed up inside the church of the nativity, believing they were about to be attacked by the surrounding Israelis, set fires inside? I'm only speculating but I wonder if it was intended to make it look like Israel was pulling a Waco?

Then, on live TV, Arafat is mistakenly told that the Israelis are storming the church when they were not actually doing anything but returning fire. He proceeds to go on a rant about how evil Israel is etc etc...only to find out later that he was misinformed.

Their own propaganda turned around and bit them in the �ss.

[ringo]

Who can say what is or isn't propaganda at this point? Israel should let the UN inspectors in to settle this. Why refuse if there is nothing to hide?

[mr. natural]

Posted by Face Ache:

The IDF have done some naughty things in Jenin. I think there are still bodies to be found under rubble and they admit to vandalising and looting. http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/ob...?itemNo=157479

But the Palestinians (and their supporters) only hurt their own cause by exaggerating.

Yes, the vandalism is stupid. Yet the Haaretz report does suggest that the culprits will be punished with time in prison. Propaganda? Possibly. It is also quite possible that the IDF will in fact punish such irregular behavior. But as the report also notes, when it comes to the PA, determing what was legit as civil hardware and what was part or their terrorist network wasn't clear. Perhaps the PA isn't clear about such matters either.

Let's try turning the tables on the PA and wonder what they would do if elements under their control behaved similarly. How about: Nothing.

The six Palestinians now under guard by British & American (unarmed) officials are alleged terrorists. The PA supposedly tried them, but this is a farce if prior similar arrests and detentions are any indication.

Meanwhile, in Bethlehem there are a large number of armed Palestinians hiding out in a Catholic holy site church! These "freedom fighters," these "men," are in fact cowardly chicken sh!ts. Where'd their sense of holy R.I.P. martrydom go to when the Israeli army invaded? They musta felt Jesus breathing down their sorry little butts seeing as how fast they high tailed it into a Catholic church!

I'm no fan of the Israeli government's policies and tactics, but these sort of ***** footed Palestinians, their corrupt rat of a leader, and the whole fanatical dent-headed muslims and their religious leaders spouting hatred of the west and Israel is pissing me off.

This whole Islamic vs. the West war has yet to really get going, and this pisses me off too thinking this, but if they can't learn to live and let live in peace I'm betting they'll get to romp with Allah and all his merry maidens in their stupid heaven oneday sooner than later.

/rant

[Big Mac]

To all the supporters of Israel who have posted in this thread: Thank you so much. It gives me hope that more and more are starting to realize the true nature of the Arab-Israeli conflict. And thanks to Face Ache for not being totally obnoxious and stupid this time. . .

Am Yisrael Chai!

[theolein]

Everybody here knows I'm Arafat's right hand man and all that bla bla bla, but, since the Palestinians were exagerating things and the Israelis weren't exactly letting the media into the area, I think it's normal that people started thinking that there was a massacre. In any case I agree with ringo - If there's nothing to hide why don't they just let the (now dissolved) UN team in? Would have been easier on them.

In any case, I think that each and every person that dies in that sick f**k of a conflict, Arab or Jew, is one person too much.

[Shekwan]

Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
<STRONG>Although overall, I maintain that Palestinian anger would be much better directed towards Arafat, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, most of the Arab nations, and all the other liars and charlatans that have been selling them down the river for years</STRONG>

Yes, but it won't happen any time soon.

[itai195]

It's not the first time (and probably not the last) that the Palestinian propaganda machine has exaggerated death tolls.

As far as the WTC goes, you have a point FaceAche. It's certainly not unusual to exaggerate death tolls in the face of a crisis, but you have to wonder that if the Israelis knew how many people died, why didn't the Palestinians know? They probably did. If there's one thing the PLO has been very good at, it's doing the little things that are small enough to pass under the "international radar" yet large enough to incite large-scale Israeli military action and thus get international criticism of Israel. People can criticize the American press for a supposed pro-Israel bias until they're blue in the face but the track record shows the Israeli propaganda machine in general is much poorer than the Palestinian counterpart.

As an afterthought, why did this article only seem to appear in the Washington Times and not in the NY Times or CNN?

[ 05-02-2002: Message edited by: itai195 ]

[itai195]

Originally posted by ringo:
<STRONG>Who can say what is or isn't propaganda at this point? Israel should let the UN inspectors in to settle this. Why refuse if there is nothing to hide?</STRONG>

Because anything in this conflict can become propaganda, and why let 'the other side' gain a propaganda advantage when you don't have to? The human rights organizations were chomping at the bit for the opportunity to declare the events at Jenin a massacre. An official of Amnesty International (I think) was quoted as asking what right Israel had to help choose the investigators. It had every right! Just as an accused person (in the US at least) has the right to a fair trial by an impartial jury of his/her peers and has a right to help choose that jury, Israel has the right to be investigated by an impartial group and to help choose that group. That clearly wasn't going to happen.

[ringo]

Originally posted by itai195:
<STRONG>Because anything in this conflict can become propaganda, and why let 'the other side' gain a propaganda advantage when you don't have to? The human rights organizations were chomping at the bit for the opportunity to declare the events at Jenin a massacre. An official of Amnesty International (I think) was quoted as asking what right Israel had to help choose the investigators. It had every right! Just as an accused person (in the US at least) has the right to a fair trial by an impartial jury of his/her peers and has a right to help choose that jury, Israel has the right to be investigated by an impartial group and to help choose that group. That clearly wasn't going to happen.</STRONG>

The United Nations is probably the closest thing to an impartial jury that Israel could hope for. This isn't a trial. No amount of bias will increase or decrease the number of corpses in a pile.

From: http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.as...tin&Cr1=relief

Humanitarian crisis looms over Gaza strip, UN relief agency warns

2 May � A humanitarian crisis is looming over the Gaza Strip, where the Israeli authorities continue blocking the entry of food, medicines and fuel, while restricting the movement of all goods and personnel, the lead United Nations relief agency in the Middle East warned today.

The UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refuges in the Near East, which has lodged a number of protests with Israel in recent weeks, acknowledged the efforts of the local Israeli liaison officers, but said there has been scant improvement in the situation.

�Life is already hard enough for those desperately poor refugees who rely on UNRWA to provide them with nutritional security,� said the Director of UNRWA Operations, Lionel Brisson. �Now, not only their food supplies, but also their fresh water, waste removal and medicines are under threat � all of which could have calamitous consequences for public health.�

Because of the restrictions, UNRWA�s latest emergency food distribution is in jeopardy. The Agency said that without permission to transport aid, some 600,000 needy people will not get the food package planned for this month. Fuel and building materials are also in short supply.

Faced with diminishing supplies and the fear of a major Israeli incursion, the largely impoverished residents of Gaza have begun to stockpile basic foodstuffs and medicines, pushing prices up further and compounding feelings of despair, according to the Agency.

The southern area of the Gaza Strip is now virtually cut off from all specialist health services, depriving over 3,000 patients of care, UNRWA said. The provision of even basic medical services has been very difficult in areas such as Al Mawasi, where yesterday, despite prior coordination with the Israeli Army, a health team was refused access after being made to wait for over three hours at a checkpoint in the area.

Neither side is without blame, but let's not kid ourselves about the genocidal overtones in this war.

[�]

It makes me sick and tired to read headlines like "No sign of jeninmassacre, yet" It is very suggestive coverage of news.

I also noticed that on an arab discussiongroup (www.maroc.nl) a lot of posters still want jihad because of the massacre, completely ignoring the facts about Jenin. If you understand Dutch, you will get an idea of what insensitive sentiments these immigrant arabs have about gays, jews and infidels.

[ 05-03-2002: Message edited by: � ]