[Chongo]

There have been numerous expeditions on Ararat. Most ended due to weather. This should be interesting. If true, how do Hitchens and Dawkins explain this one? They hauled it up there?



'Noah's Ark' discovered on Turkish mountain - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Updated Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:10pm AEST


Racks found on a wall inside a compartment of a structure that a group of evangelical explorers claims might prove the existence of Noah's Ark. (AFP: NAMI)

A group of Chinese and Turkish evangelical explorers believe they may have found Noah's Ark about 4,000 metres up a mountain in Turkey.

The team say they recovered wooden specimens from a structure on Mount Ararat in eastern Turkey that carbon dating proved was 4,800 years old, around the same time the ark is said to have been afloat.

Yeung Wing-cheung, a member of the 15-strong team from Noah's Ark Ministries International, says the structure has several compartments, some with wooden beams, which were believed to house animals.

"It's not 100 per cent that it is Noah's Ark but we think it is 99.9 per cent that this is it," he told AFP.

The group has ruled out an established human settlement on the grounds that one had never been found above 3,500 metres in the vicinity.

Mr Yeung says local Turkish officials will ask the central government in Ankara to apply for UNESCO World Heritage status so the site can be protected while a major archaeological dig is conducted.

The biblical story says God decided to flood the earth after seeing how corrupt it had become, and told Noah to build an ark and fill it with two of every animal species.

After the flood waters receded, the Bible says the ark came to rest on a mountain.

Many believe that Mount Ararat, the highest point in the region, is where the ark and its inhabitants came aground.

[The Final Dakar]

Wow, four sentences and you're already taunting the atheists. Bitter much?

[hyteckit]

Wait.

If there was Noah's Ark, then the Bible must be true?

I just wrote a book about my God and how she cause the Iceland Volcano eruption because of Pres. Bush and the Iraq War.

My God cause the iceland volcano eruption because Pres. Bush was an idiot for engaging in the Iraq War.

Because I made up a story center around the Pres. Bush, the Iraq War, and Iceland Volcano eruption, my God must be real?

WTF logic is that?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

WTF logic is that?

None. You're just being hyteckit. That's it.

People know to take your stuff with a homeopathic dose of salt.

-t

[Rumor]

It will be interesting to see the story unfold on this.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

None. You're just being hyteckit. That's it.

People know to take your stuff with a homeopathic dose of salt.

-t

According to you, turtles hold up the Earth. 777 turtles to be exact.

[CollinG3G4]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

If true, how do Hitchens and Dawkins explain this one?

That's easy: genetic diversity. I'm 99.9% sure on that.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by CollinG3G4 

That's easy: genetic diversity. I'm 99.9% sure on that.

Is this the genetic diversity encountered when a small bunch of peeps from Africa spread themselves out over the globe?

Or something else?

[CollinG3G4]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Is this the genetic diversity encountered when a small bunch of peeps from Africa spread themselves out over the globe?

Or something else?

No, it's the kind encountered when two individuals are given the task of repopulating the entire species. Or the kind that results from siblings reproducing with siblings reproducing siblings and so on for ~5,000 years.

[Rumor]

This may be a farce according to one of the guys involved.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by CollinG3G4 

No, it's the kind encountered when two individuals are given the task of repopulating the entire species.

I think it was Noah, his wife, and their 3 boys.

Yuck!

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Rumor 

This may be a farce according to one of the guys involved.

CS Monitor, one of my favorite news websites. Strange for a guy who loves to make fun of Christianity.

[Atheist]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

They hauled it up there?

Yes. 10 Kurdish workers to be exact.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

There have been numerous expeditions on Ararat. Most ended due to weather. This should be interesting. If true, how do Hitchens and Dawkins explain this one? They hauled it up there?



'Noah's Ark' discovered on Turkish mountain - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Hmmm, the news story you linked makes numerous mentions of the "evangelical explorers" who discovered the ruins. You think these explorers might have a bit of a bias regarding what they found?

<edit 1>
Looks like Rumor found some suggestions that the explorers might be biased in their claims.

<edit 2>
Looks like Atheist (Ha!) found some more information to corroborate Rumor's findings. This doesn't look good for the "evangelical explorers".

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

CS Monitor, one of my favorite news websites. Strange for a guy who loves to make fun of Christianity.

Why do you presume that someone "who loves to make fun of Christianity" would not read the CS Monitor? I'm a non-believer and I love to read the CS Monitor. It's a great news source and their international news coverage is second to none (IMO) for a US-based news provider.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by Rumor 

This may be a farce according to one of the guys involved.

The article say "a former member of the Chinese-led team" Maybe he's PO'ed they found it before he did. The team claims to have carbon-dated the wood as 4800 years old. Let's see the test results. Better yet, have them provide some of the wood for independent testing.

[imitchellg5]

Wow, this went downhill rather quickly!

No matter what your personal beliefs are, the CS Monitor is an interesting source of science and archaeological type news. I think it's cool how something so old can have survived so long. Granted, a low oxygen high altitude environment is perfect for that, but still pretty neat.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy 

Why do you presume that someone "who loves to make fun of Christianity" would not read the CS Monitor? I'm a non-believer and I love to read the CS Monitor. It's a great news source and their international news coverage is second to none (IMO) for a US-based news provider.

I'm a non-believer and I really like CS Monitor.

Like I said, it's one of my favorite news websites. I find them to be fairly well balance and present both sides of the story.

Of course I had initial apprehension when I saw the name "Christian Science". I thought it was a site dedicated to Christian Science news.

But it turns out to be a great news site.

[Wiskedjak]

The story of Noah's Ark has raised some interesting questions for me:
- was the *whole* planet really covered by water? If so, where did all that water come from and where did it go?
- if the only creatures to survive the flood were those on board the Ark, how do we currently have more creatures on the planet than could fit in an aircraft carrier, nevermind a craft as small as the Ark?

I don't doubt that there was one, or even several, massive floods that someone may have been prepared for with a massive (for the time) boat that ended up on the side of a mountain, but I can't see it having been globally devastating without God breaking many of the the laws of physics that he created.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

The story of Noah's Ark has raised some interesting questions for me:
- was the *whole* planet really covered by water? If so, where did all that water come from and where did it go?
- if the only creatures to survive the flood were those on board the Ark, how do we currently have more creatures on the planet than could fit in an aircraft carrier, nevermind a craft as small as the Ark?

It's a miracle. Just like the flood and the arc.

-t

[hyteckit]

I think there might have been some misunderstanding.

When I said someone "who loves to make fun of Christianity", I was referring to myself, not Rumor.

I just find it funny that one of my favorite news site turns out to be Christian Science Monitor.

I would have the same initial apprehension if the site has the name:

Hindu Chronicles
Islam Times
Scientology Monitor

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

It's a miracle. Just like the flood and the arc.

-t

You know what's also a miracle?

Millions of Chinese surviving the flood while Noah was stuck on a boat.

[hyteckit]

Damn. I didn't know Noah was Chinese.

Noah's ark has Chinese characters on it.

Made in China.

[hyteckit]

The Great Icelanic Volcano exploded and fumes cover the sky for 3 days and 3 nights, bringing down ancient mechanical birds which carry humans around in its belly.

The great Volcano Goddess Pele was apparently angry with us sinners.

Solution? Sacrifice a virgin.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by CollinG3G4 

No, it's the kind encountered when two individuals are given the task of repopulating the entire species. Or the kind that results from siblings reproducing with siblings reproducing siblings and so on for ~5,000 years.

Recent African origin of modern humans - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some scientists believe that only a few people left Africa in a single migration that went on to populate the rest of the world.[27] It has been estimated that from a population of 2,000 to 5,000 in Africa, only a small group of possibly 150 people crossed the Red Sea. This is because, of all the lineages present in Africa, only the daughters of one lineage, L3, are found outside Africa.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

The story of Noah's Ark has raised some interesting questions for me:
- was the *whole* planet really covered by water? If so, where did all that water come from and where did it go?

But where did all the water come from in the scientific model? A bunch of dust in the middle of space decided to get together one day and make some water?

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

- if the only creatures to survive the flood were those on board the Ark, how do we currently have more creatures on the planet than could fit in an aircraft carrier, nevermind a craft as small as the Ark?

I don't doubt that there was one, or even several, massive floods that someone may have been prepared for with a massive (for the time) boat that ended up on the side of a mountain, but I can't see it having been globally devastating without God breaking many of the the laws of physics that he created.

In my mind, the event was probably localised. A bit like the "World Series".

[BadKosh]

Looks like the drapes are made from parts of the Shroud of Turin.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

But where did all the water come from in the scientific model? A bunch of dust in the middle of space decided to get together one day and make some water?

I don't know, as I don't fully understand the scientific model of planet forming. But, at least you can come up "dust in the middle of space getting together to make some water". In the case of the now-most-closed-system of our planet, I don't imagine that *more* dust in the middle of space came together in 40 days to double or triple the amount of water on the planet, and then disappear shortly after.

In my mind, the event was probably localised. A bit like the "World Series".

I agree. But, then doesn't that decrease the significance of the story dramatically?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

It's a miracle. Just like the flood and the arc.

-t

"Miracle" is simply too convenient. Except in stories, God doesn't appear to work through such massive miracles. In the real world, God seems to work within the laws of the Universe that he's created. Unless he's changed his M.O. in the last few thousand years.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

I don't know, as I don't fully understand the scientific model of planet forming. But, at least you can come up "dust in the middle of space getting together to make some water". In the case of the now-most-closed-system of our planet, I don't imagine that *more* dust in the middle of space came together in 40 days to double or triple the amount of water on the planet, and then disappear shortly after.

Maybe, just maybe, they didn't have Al Gore back then to warn them not to use their lightbulbs and thus the polar caps melted and everything was under water.



Who knows?

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

I agree. But, then doesn't that decrease the significance of the story dramatically?

I don't believe so. It's a story about a renewal to remove corruption. Doesn't matter if it's a town (Sodom), a region, or the world.

[PB2K]

"evangelical explorers" ..

[besson3c]

I bet there was a lot of steal in that boat.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

I don't believe so. It's a story about a renewal to remove corruption. Doesn't matter if it's a town (Sodom), a region, or the world.

Agreed. But the scope implied by the story (global devastation) is also used as an example of God's power.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

But where did all the water come from in the scientific model? A bunch of dust in the middle of space decided to get together one day and make some water?

Looks like Gizmodo and NASA are following our conversation and have offered a theory.
Ice Discovered on Asteroid, Suggests Earth’s Oceans Came From Space - Asteroids - Gizmodo

This could, of course, be used to explain where all the water for Noah's flood came from, but it can't be used to explain where the water went.

('course, we both agreed that it was likely localized. I just found it interesting that this popped up on Gizmodo just this morning).

[andi*pandi]

The boat got there after it crashed into the 4-toed statue during the huge storm. Richard survived the wreck after the Smoke Monster spared him.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

The story of Noah's Ark has raised some interesting questions for me:
- was the *whole* planet really covered by water? If so, where did all that water come from and where did it go?
- if the only creatures to survive the flood were those on board the Ark, how do we currently have more creatures on the planet than could fit in an aircraft carrier, nevermind a craft as small as the Ark?

I don't doubt that there was one, or even several, massive floods that someone may have been prepared for with a massive (for the time) boat that ended up on the side of a mountain, but I can't see it having been globally devastating without God breaking many of the the laws of physics that he created.

To answer your questions:

1) It says in Genesis 6 that "all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened, and the rain was upon the earth." So it sounds as if underwater "reseviours" were opened up, while it concurrently rained. Obviously I'm not a scientist, so I don't know the technicalities, but we know today that there are still giant underwater caverns of water. I'm assuming that these just opened up somehow. This water would have cooled the earth and created massive storms.
2) I'm not sure which cubit measurement system is described in the Bible, but the ark would have been around507 feet long, 85 feet wide and 51 feet tall. So that's pretty large. However, my guess is that he didn't have two of every single kind of species, but each major phylum. Again, that's pretty unscientific, but that's what makes sense to me.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

To answer your questions:

1) It says in Genesis 6 that "all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened, and the rain was upon the earth." So it sounds as if underwater "reseviours" were opened up, while it concurrently rained. Obviously I'm not a scientist, so I don't know the technicalities, but we know today that there are still giant underwater caverns of water. I'm assuming that these just opened up somehow. This water would have cooled the earth and created massive storms.

Sure, but, Mt. Ararat has an elevation of 16,000 feet and the average ocean depth for the planet is 13,000 feet. To raise the planet's sea level enough to park a boat on Ararat you'd need to at least double the amount of surface water on the planet. I'd be amazed if there were that much water stored in giant underwater caverns.

2) I'm not sure which cubit measurement system is described in the Bible, but the ark would have been around507 feet long, 85 feet wide and 51 feet tall. So that's pretty large. However, my guess is that he didn't have two of every single kind of species, but each major phylum. Again, that's pretty unscientific, but that's what makes sense to me.

Which makes me wonder how we ended up with so many different animals after only a few thousand years since the Flood. Especially if there's no such thing as evolution.

[SpaceMonkey]

After reading the article, I'm confused about whether they are sure if this was even a boat.

[Macrobat]

Most of the world's religions - including the "extinct" ones have some sort of story of a global flood associated with them.

Seems kind of convenient that this would be Noah's Ark, but something as widespread as a global flood epic has to have some sort of real attention paid to it.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Macrobat 

Most of the world's religions - including the "extinct" ones have some sort of story of a global flood associated with them.

Seems kind of convenient that this would be Noah's Ark, but something as widespread as a global flood epic has to have some sort of real attention paid to it.

indeed. although, one should keep in consideration the limited scope of knowledge that people around these times would have had. even a highly localized flood event would have appeared to have been widespread.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

But where did all the water come from in the scientific model? A bunch of dust in the middle of space decided to get together one day and make some water?

Yeah, something like that: Ice Discovered on Asteroid, Suggests Earth’s Oceans Came From Space - Asteroids - Gizmodo

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

But where did all the water come from in the scientific model? A bunch of dust in the middle of space decided to get together one day and make some water?

Water comes from 2 H's trying to hump an O, like a 3-some.

[olePigeon]

"OK, two aardvarks. Two hippos. Two camels. Two squirrels. Two horses. Two lions... Hey, Steve, you want to peek in there and double check what we have before we get going?"
"Two lions."
"God damn it!"

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Water comes from 2 H's trying to hump an O, like a 3-some.

Now you are speaking Doofy's language!

[CollinG3G4]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Recent African origin of modern humans - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Right, which is more than two of each animal species interbreeding for 5 millennia.

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by Macrobat 

Most of the world's religions - including the "extinct" ones have some sort of story of a global flood associated with them.

Seems kind of convenient that this would be Noah's Ark, but something as widespread as a global flood epic has to have some sort of real attention paid to it.

This ^

I'm guessing that all these cultures who all tell essentially the same story probably based it on something that actually happened. That doesn't mean it went down exactly like the Bible says, or the guy involved was actually named Noah, or anything else (though that could be the case).

Finding the remains of a boat on Mt. Ararat does show that this widely held belief in an ancient worldwide (or possibly just the world as those at the time knew it) flood had a factual basis.

As far as conspiracy theories, I'm surprised it took more than a day for rivals (if it's true) to start claiming knowledge of a sinister plot before hand. I think if someone's going to accuse people of such an elaborate plot though, they are going to need more evidence that "that's what I heard", just as the guys who claim to have found the boat are going to need more than just "hey, look at the video!"

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

This ^

I'm guessing that all these cultures who all tell essentially the same story probably based it on something that actually happened. That doesn't mean it went down exactly like the Bible says, or the guy involved was actually named Noah, or anything else (though that could be the case).

Finding the remains of a boat on Mt. Ararat does show that this widely held belief in an ancient worldwide (or possibly just the world as those at the time knew it) flood had a factual basis.

As far as conspiracy theories, I'm surprised it took more than a day for rivals (if it's true) to start claiming knowledge of a sinister plot before hand. I think if someone's going to accuse people of such an elaborate plot though, they are going to need more evidence that "that's what I heard", just as the guys who claim to have found the boat are going to need more than just "hey, look at the video!"

Maybe. But we should keep in mind that a universal human allegory doesn't necessarily have to have a basis in one particular event. The whole point, after all, is to be instructive in some way to the human condition. The flood is a symbol to that end, and its lasting resonance across cultures just as likely speaks to something universal about the human condition, as opposed to an actual shared experience.

[Paco500]

I'm no scientist, but how could water go 4000m up a mountain and remain a "localized" event. Wouldn't that water have needed to spread out a bit?

As for where the water came from and where did it go- if you buy into the Bible as literal fact, this is kind of a pointless question. God put it there and God made it go away. No matter your beliefs, if you try and rationalize the Bible scientifically, you are not going to get very far. At least with any credibility.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Paco500 

I'm no scientist, but how could water go 4000m up a mountain and remain a "localized" event. Wouldn't that water have needed to spread out a bit?

I'm curious myself.

[Warren Pease]

Originally Posted by Paco500 

I'm no scientist, but how could water go 4000m up a mountain and remain a "localized" event. Wouldn't that water have needed to spread out a bit?

Ha. You have the answer to your own question.

Originally Posted by Paco500 

if you buy into the Bible as literal fact, this is kind of a pointless question.