[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Simon 

I'm gonna agree here. I think most people here know that Apple never ever changed the GUI within a few weeks of the final OS release

Well most people think they know. Those "most people" would be wrong.
Again, I am not talking about drastic changes to the OS. Like OS 9 was to OS X.

I am going to email swiz and have him come in here and set the record straight.

Since he IS the official forum's GUI punk.

Both me and him would cuss at Apple every time something was changed. It was the reason he stopped themeing.

BTW here is a recent quote from the GUI punk himself

http://forums.macnn.com/94/gui-custo...i/#post3484659

Originally Posted by swiz 

heh, they'll probably do what I did a while ago- take a break to wait and see if they'll stop messing with multiple interfaces and settle on a "theme" format which doesnt disuade GUI developers from sticking with it. It was a nonstop marathon of updating just to keep the old GUI's looking right. For someone with multiple themes, you would just finish updating and then the next incrmeental OS update would release and screw something up again. Forget that.

Swiz was also on of the FIRST themers for OS X. Just like me. He stopped shortly after 10.1-10.2 just like me. Both for the same reasons.

And if anyone was confused or not sure about what swiz meant by this, I just sent him a msg, email, and a AIM to invite him to our discussion.

Heck I remember having to boot into OS 9 many times because I tried to use an Extras.rsrc in a OS build that came out not a whole week after the last one, only for it not to work because they have added to it, or changed it. And this was going on up until the FC CDs.

Not that this has ANYTHING to do with why I think Apple is hiding a GUI. It doesn't. I am not really saying "because they done this before" even though I used the fact that they HAVE changed GUI properties in the last minute.

That is not why I believe we will see a new GUI.

By the time 10.0.0 finally came out Aqua was stale. People had already made Aqua like themes for OS 9 and Windows. Thousands of web pages already looked like Aqua.

10.5 is the biggest update to OS X since it's inception. I am sure they have learned from their mistakes in the past.

I mean it's not like Apple isn't known to keep secrets from people till the minute said product is announced. I sure hope no one is going to say they don't do this.

And again, I am not saying this will def happen. I am calling it a GUESS.

As how 10.5 looks now.. it's a GUI mess. As MANY OTHERS in this thread pointed out. The two just don't match.

So either Apple will keep it like it is, and put out an inconsistent GUI.



Or they will show it off at the last minute to surprise everyone.



(BTW in said pictures above, the multicolored buttons on the top don't match up with theme either, so they might go as well)

I am just a Mac user hoping Apple keeps with it's consistent past.

[OreoCookie]

Please keep your discussion on topic here. I'd hate to close this thread just because it starts to saturate with pointless bickering over small details.

[Kevin]

We are discussing Leopard's GUI. This is an official Leopard thread? I am not getting what part isn't on topic.

If you'd like me to start "AN official Leopard GUI only" thread I can. No problem.

[ghporter]

Can we quit with the "he said this..." "no, I said that..." stuff? It's off topic and doesn't really have a place in this thread.

I personally like the iTunes sliders better; the horizontal ruled "handle" in the middle seems to say "this thing moves" more than the three dots do.

I don't have as much background in what things looked like in previous OSs, but I use some pretty old specialized Mac software that's running on OS 8 (I think) and I find it interesting how little the interface has changed-in some ways. The whole GUI concept and execution has been pretty darn stable over the years. Not that elements have been static, but that while they've been rendered differently with each new version (and often sub-version), a slider bar does exactly the same thing in a given view. The visual presentation is different, but the action is the same. Many new features build on this stability...

I'm looking forward to discussing the decisions that show up in the final version, not in small part because I'm looking forward to getting Leopard! One question though: while I get the gist of "GM" from context, I'm not sure I know what it stands for. Can someone enlighten me?

[TETENAL]

Golden Master is the build that is being selected for reproduction. I guess it's "golden" because it's a burnt CD from which the silver printed CDs are mastered from.

Golden master - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

Golden Master is the build that is being selected for reproduction.

Thanks. I though it would have something to do with "going gold," but I couldn't suss out the "M" part of it.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

I personally like the iTunes sliders better; the horizontal ruled "handle" in the middle seems to say "this thing moves" more than the three dots do.

I agree. I also think the scroll bars need "it moves" graphics too. Something for the brain to grab onto if you will.

I don't have as much background in what things looked like in previous OSs, but I use some pretty old specialized Mac software that's running on OS 8 (I think) and I find it interesting how little the interface has changed-in some ways. The whole GUI concept and execution has been pretty darn stable over the years. Not that elements have been static, but that while they've been rendered differently with each new version (and often sub-version), a slider bar does exactly the same thing in a given view. The visual presentation is different, but the action is the same. Many new features build on this stability...

I'm looking forward to discussing the decisions that show up in the final version, not in small part because I'm looking forward to getting Leopard! One question though: while I get the gist of "GM" from context, I'm not sure I know what it stands for. Can someone enlighten me?

GM stands for Golden Master. The final version that will show up on teh shelves. FC stands for Final Candidate.

Near the end of development the internal builds will get FC labels meaning anyone at anytime could be the GM. GM are usually labeled FC first. Then they ship it out and we get updated throughout the next 3 months that fixes bugs and GUI inconsistencies that they didn't get to.

[ghporter]

I think what we're seeing is application specific coding that doesn't take advantage of either OS capabilities or a standard playbook. Why change TextEdit to match the "latest and greatest?" Aside from the fact that we Mac users love consistency in the user interface, of course. I'm seeing this as a sort of "we'll catch that in the next version of TextEdit" rather than "let's blow off consistency." I could be wrong.

[TETENAL]

I really doubt TextEdit is using application specific scrollbars.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

I think what we're seeing is application specific coding that doesn't take advantage of either OS capabilities or a standard playbook. Why change TextEdit to match the "latest and greatest?"

Yes some applications use it's own GUI. While Apple tells third parties to NOT do this.

Aside from the fact that we Mac users love consistency in the user interface, of course.

Tell that to those that claim only those into the graphic arts care.

I'm seeing this as a sort of "we'll catch that in the next version of TextEdit" rather than "let's blow off consistency." I could be wrong.

I am HOPING that is the case. But I don't see them adding it to iTunes, and other iApps, and not adding it to the rest of the OS.

That would be a GUI nightmare. And it definitely couldn't be called "Unified"

That is why I think Apple has different internal GUI builds that only Apple has seen. They put out a teaser with the iApps. But I believe we will see this look in the OS as well.

I know some users HATE the subtle look compared to Aqua, but Aqua has to go sometimes. It's long on the tooth, and horribly outdated. It reminds me of those awful Aqua webpages that would litter the internet every time I saw them.

Even apple had problems keeping their website consistent. It had elements of 10.0, 10.2 and 10.4 in it..

Now they gave gotten rid of all that crap, and the whole webpage is pretty much unified now. And the aqua is gone.

Why would Apple remove aqua like elements from their own webpage if he OS will be using them?

For example



All those buttons used to be Aqua ones. As the rest of the page used to be filled with Aqua widgets. They have dropped aqua all together on their pages for the most part.

Even Tiger's page has stopped with teh Aqua GUI

Apple - Mac OS X Tiger

And Leopard has even more so

Apple - Mac OS X Leopard

This is what I think happened with OS X and it's inconsistent GUI after 10.0.0 A LOT of people were unhappy with Aqua as far as using it went. It was pretty in a oooh aah way, but that soon lost it's appeal.

So Apple tried going different directions. Brushed metal (Which Steve really liked but a lot of Mac users complained about) and then the Unified look. which has gotten tons of great responses. (Not everyone is happy however..)

I think Apple was testing the waters with these ideas. And the unified look came out as victor.

Unified and Aqua simply clash not only visually. But conceptually too.

[besson3c]

I would like the GUI to look like the Calculator Dashboard widget.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

I am not trying to shift any topic anywhere Charles as I've told you now 3times *I* brought up DP3 because it was the first version of Aqua to hit the shelves.

DP3 never hit the shelves. It was a pre-release build. It also has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

You must have missed the many times I told you, that in the last few weeks of development little changes were made in the GUI.

I already showed you that's not true, because the build that became the GM was already seeded by this time in March 2001. I even provided a link and everything. End of discussion.

You are arguing something I wasn't. Simple as that

For the last time, I was not saying you were arguing anything, it was I who was saying that while it might have made sense to rush things in 10.0 to some degree since Apple was in trouble and needed to release something, it makes absolutely no sense now. It has nothing to do with whether you were arguing anything or not - it's a point in my argument. What makes that so hard to get?!

Ugh, you know what? I'm not going to reply to this whole thing. You don't seem to understand anything I say, so why waste the time?

[.Neo]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

What I am saying is, you DON'T have to make custom buttons. You can use the image builder to do what the guy in transmission did without reverting to making your own buttons. SURE you have to make your own image that goes over top it. In this case it's a black turtle. Which BTW goes with any theme. Unless of course it's black .

You still need to include the glossy background in this case because Apple neglected to include one. Next to that the black turtle comes with a graphite and blue pressed state that have been specifically designed to match Aqua. So they will look out of place regardless.

Just face it, you can't design icons and button overlays that will fit in with every theme.

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Go into iPhoto. Look at the menus. Now, go into TextEdit, look at them. Same commands in different places. This used to never happen.

Where? What commands exactly? I'm really not going to look through all the menus to see what you mean.

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Outdated how?

Not sure if you're joking right now, but in any case I find it disappointing that Apple never updated the HIGs to include some explanation of new Tiger-specific elements like the Unified toolbar look as opposite to the default Aqua look, glossy bar etc.

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Why? When I was complaining about over-all consistency?

From what I can make out you were commenting on some iPhoto scroll bar bug, shown in the screenshot. It's most likely not a problem with Mac OS X, but with iPhoto itself.

Originally Posted by Kevin 

And .Neo, when I say these things, I am not referring to you. Me and you have had a civil conversation.

A weight has been lifted of my shoulders. Glad to hear it's still possible to have a normal debate.

[besson3c]

I would love to have a conversation about Apple's HIG, if there is interest.

[MindFad]

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I would love to have a conversation about Apple's HIG, if there is interest.

Start a thread. I'd join in.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

Start a thread. I'd join in.

http://forums.macnn.com/90/mac-os-x/...ability-thread

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

DP3 never hit the shelves. It was a pre-release build. It also has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

What the. . since when were we just talking about OSs that just hit the shelves Charles? Why do you keep bringing up points that have nothing to do with anything I said. It has EVERYTHING to do with what *I* am talking about. I assure you. I just asked myself. Twice.

I already showed you that's not true,

You couldn't have done any such thing. In order to do so, you'd have to show every single graphic in the Extras.rsrc and show where none were changed. Not that you could even if you tried. But there were changes in them. I had to update my theme with almost every build that came out. If the Extras.rsrc was the same, I wouldn't have to.

because the build that became the GM was already seeded by this time in March 2001. I even provided a link and everything. End of discussion.

Your link and your reason doesn't disprove anything I've said Charles.

For the last time, I was not saying you were arguing anything, it was I who was saying that while it might have made sense to rush things in 10.0 to some degree since Apple was in trouble and needed to release something, it makes absolutely no sense now.

Who is talking about rushing anything other than you? Not I. Me believing there will be a new GUI has nothing to do with rushing.

Ugh, you know what? I'm not going to reply to this whole thing. You don't seem to understand anything I say, so why waste the time?

Of course, when all else fails, it's always the other person's problem for not "understanding"

That simply isn't the case here. As far as the OS X GUI goes from DP3 to 10.2 I would say I was one of the handful of people in here that probably knows more than most in here about the Aqua changes in that time. We all saw them. You might even be able to dig in the archives of us talking about such things. I went by "Sine" and "Zimphire" back then.

Originally Posted by .Neo 

You still need to include the glossy background in this case because Apple neglected to include one.

What glossy background are you referring to?

Next to that the black turtle comes with a graphite and blue pressed state that have been specifically designed to match Aqua. So they will look out of place regardless.

Mine shows black and grey...

Just face it, you can't design icons and button overlays that will fit in with every theme.

Don't recall saying you could. There is always going to be an exception.

Where? What commands exactly? I'm really not going to look through all the menus to see what you mean.

I just went back and check, and the LATEST version of iPhoto has fixed this problem.

For example, Export was under the "Share" label instead of "File" like every other Mac. This really perturbed me. It seems like they fixed it in the last version that added the unified look with the new scrollbars.

So Apple IS trying. I give them that.

OS X is solid and zippy now. I think they are now going back and fixing the broke and inconsistencies between the GUIs. Polishing it if you will.

Not sure if you're joking right now, but in any case I find it disappointing that Apple never updated the HIGs to include some explanation of new Tiger-specific elements like the Unified toolbar look as opposite to the default Aqua look, glossy bar etc.

I am talking about the main guidelines for ANY GUI.Not just Aqua, or platinum. There were a lot of definite rules that they were saying ANY and ALL GUIs should follow, that Aqua simply does not. Unified menus was one of them.

From what I can make out you were commenting on some iPhoto scroll bar bug, shown in the screenshot. It's most likely not a problem with Mac OS X, but with iPhoto itself.

And I am referring to Consistency. Since iPhoto uses it's own hacked resources and not what it's supposed to, it gets messy sometimes. I used to expect that stuff from MS or poor 3rd party devs. Not Apple.

[0157988944]

STOP IT! GAAHH! I skip over all your replies anyway because its a pointless argument. Go to PM.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

What the. . since when were we just talking about OSs that just hit the shelves Charles? Why do you keep bringing up points that have nothing to do with anything I said. It has EVERYTHING to do with what *I* am talking about. I assure you. I just asked myself. Twice.

Originally Posted by Kevin

I am not trying to shift any topic anywhere Charles as I've told you now 3times *I* brought up DP3 because it was the first version of Aqua to hit the shelves.

You couldn't have done any such thing. In order to do so, you'd have to show every single graphic in the Extras.rsrc and show where none were changed. Not that you could even if you tried. But there were changes in them. I had to update my theme with almost every build that came out. If the Extras.rsrc was the same, I wouldn't have to.

4K78 was seeded in the beginning of March. 4K78 was the GM. 4K78 is what went to the CD printers and what ended up on the retail 10.0 install disc. Thus, what was in 4K78 on March 5 was exactly what was in 10.0 on launch day, byte for byte.

This is part of the definition of what GM is.

Your link and your reason doesn't disprove anything I've said Charles.

On the contrary, it disproves everything you've said.

Who is talking about rushing anything other than you? Not I. Me believing there will be a new GUI has nothing to do with rushing.

You're suggesting Apple would add a feature weeks before the launch date. That's the very definition of rushing. If Apple is adding features now, it means that they need to push back the launch date a few months to test it properly. If they don't, they're rushing.

Fortunately, you're wrong.

[0157988944]

...

[Big Mac]

My take, FWIW: Kevin knows more about UI design, but Charles knows more about software development.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by adamfishercox 

...

Sorry, I couldn't help it. That first part of his post where he was denying the text that was right there in the quote box was just...

This is why you don't see me in the Political Lounge much.

[Horsepoo!!!]

My take is that you all know very little.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

It hit my shelf In it's CD case. Maybe I should have said "First version of Aqua that anyone got to use" But I think we both know you knew what I meant.
I still have like a SLEW of pre 10.0 CDs. I was messing with the themeing for OS X before the Public Beta came out.

4K78 was seeded in the beginning of March. 4K78 was the GM. 4K78 is what went to the CD printers and what ended up on the retail 10.0 install disc. Thus, what was in 4K78 on March 5 was exactly what was in 10.0 on launch day, byte for byte.

I said last few weeks OF DEVELOPMENT. After 4K78 was seeded, development ceased. Well at least for 10.0.0

BTW I want to repeat something GH said

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Can we quit with the "he said this..." "no, I said that..." stuff? It's off topic and doesn't really have a place in this thread.

On the contrary, it disproves everything you've said.

Oh in that case, you just convinced me. Before when I read what you said, and realized it didn't disprove anything I said (last 2 weeks of development) But now that you've made it MUCH clearer by simply stated you did, while using italics I am throughly convince.

You're suggesting Apple would add a feature weeks before the launch date.

Features? No. Graphic files? Sure. It would be as easy as copy and paste.

That's the very definition of rushing. If Apple is adding features now, it means that they need to push back the launch date a few months to test it properly. If they don't, they're rushing.

Again, they've took awhile to make 10.5. Long enough to improve OS X's GUI a good bit. They wouldn't want the public to see it all so they wouldn't go through the past Aqua effect.

ALL of their site has been de-aquad, and given a Unified look, with the flat button, scrollbar theme to it.

All of Apple's iApps have been going this way.

The fact that the Aqua elements, as MANY OTHERS other than me pointed out, stick out like sore thumbs with unified also show that something else might be coming soon.

Apple is known for holding BIG SECRETS about it's products till they are released.

Need I go on?

Like I said, if what I claim I believe will happen, does not. I will eat my crow pie gladly. I will admit my guesses were wrong. And I will apologize for arguing with your mass knowledge of the OS X GUI.

On the other hand. If I am right..

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

My take, FWIW: Kevin knows more about UI design, but Charles knows more about software development.

Of course he does know about software development. As he is a coder. And I am not.

But this subject is more knowing more about Apple, looking at the trends as to what they are doing, and having a decent eye for GUI design.

I've also spent YEARS with my head in the Extras.rsrc modifying thousands of files constantly. I don't think Charles was doing this.

And this was before ANYONE knew ANYTHING about themeing. And the theme applications were crude, and crashed often.

Again, I wish swiz would come back. He'd put all this to rest.

[CharlesS]

Okay, I'm done here.

We'll see in a few weeks, okay?

[Kevin]

That's what I've been saying. And I told you. If I was wrong, I would come back and apologize.

I honestly hope I am right, not because of this thread, but for Apple.

I am going to do this. If it doesn't change. I will change Aqua to make it look like this. If someone else does not. (Mine wont be a GUIkit I know that)

I've had enough of Aqua. It's almost been a decade. At least they got rid of the stripes. Like I claimed they would way back in the 10.0.0 days.. and I was told I didn't know what I was talking about then too. I was told "This is the look of Aqua, get used to it" I just beat Apple to the punch. I refused to deal with a OS that looked like it was covered in rolling papers.

[besson3c]

Well, it looks like after all this I'm still the best here.

[Kevin]

The best at?

[analogika]

(it hurts, but it helps)



aah...

[Kevin]

analog.. here so you wont hurt yourself



"Apple's latest build of Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard is the first to sport signs of finishing touches," Think Secret reports.

"Build 9A527, distributed last week to developers, represents a substantial improvement over the previous build, 9A499. On the whole, the build performs faster and has far fewer bugs than before," Think Secret reports.

"In addition, 9A527 features a new installer graphic, new space-themed Welcome movie, new space-themed desktop, and for the first time Mail now lists the new features of version 3.0, not the previous 2.0 Tiger placeholder," Think Secret reports.

"The Mac OS X interface also continues to show signs of refinement since the major changes introduced in build 9A466. In partciular, toolbar elements are more defined while the gem-like window controls are bolder and more saturated in appearance," Think Secret reports. "Virtually every application in build 9A527 also sports a new high-resolution icon."


Seems like Apple is keeping with tradition and continues to modify the resources up until the very end. Like they did with the many other OS builds before it.

[Kevin]

BTW anyone remember what OS 9's iTunes looked like? You know, before OS X came out.



It gave us a glimpse as to what 10.0.0 was going to look and react like.

[- - e r i k - -]

9A527 is old. Get with the program.

[Kevin]

I never said it was new. It's new enough. I was pointing out that like before, Apple is still futzing with the GUI up until the last minute.

Something I was told didn't happen.

They did the same from DP3 to 10.0.0

CONSTANTLY. Still trying to get swiz in here. He is hard to get ahold of.

He was never a fan of Aqua either.

[.Neo]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

What glossy background are you referring to?

Launch Mail and look at the bottom bar beneath the Sidebar.

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Mine shows black and grey...

That's because it adapts to either blue or graphite depending on what you use...

Originally Posted by Kevin 

I am talking about the main guidelines for ANY GUI.Not just Aqua, or platinum. There were a lot of definite rules that they were saying ANY and ALL GUIs should follow, that Aqua simply does not. Unified menus was one of them.

Aqua = The entire Mac OS X user experience.

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Don't recall saying you could. There is always going to be an exception.

BINGO! And that's the reason why Mac OS X doesn't feature a completely open theme engine: It won't ever be as consistent as it is when developing application interfaces for only one UI design.

Originally Posted by Kevin 

And I am referring to Consistency. Since iPhoto uses it's own hacked resources and not what it's supposed to, it gets messy sometimes. I used to expect that stuff from MS or poor 3rd party devs. Not Apple.

That doesn't change the fact that the issue is or was iPhoto related. Not Mac OS X, something you claimed in the first place.

Originally Posted by Kevin 

BTW anyone remember what OS 9's iTunes looked like? You know, before OS X came out.



It gave us a glimpse as to what 10.0.0 was going to look and react like.

So it turns out that even Mac OS 9 had it's "alien" application UIs.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

BTW anyone remember what OS 9's iTunes looked like? You know, before OS X came out.

It gave us a glimpse as to what 10.0.0 was going to look and react like.

Not really. Aqua had already been previewed by then. And both QuickTime Player and iMovie were sporting many Aqua elements already.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

analog.. here so you wont hurt yourself



"Apple's latest build of Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard is the first to sport signs of finishing touches," Think Secret reports.

"Build 9A527, distributed last week to developers, represents a substantial improvement over the previous build, 9A499. On the whole, the build performs faster and has far fewer bugs than before," Think Secret reports.

"In addition, 9A527 features a new installer graphic, new space-themed Welcome movie, new space-themed desktop, and for the first time Mail now lists the new features of version 3.0, not the previous 2.0 Tiger placeholder," Think Secret reports.

"The Mac OS X interface also continues to show signs of refinement since the major changes introduced in build 9A466. In partciular, toolbar elements are more defined while the gem-like window controls are bolder and more saturated in appearance," Think Secret reports. "Virtually every application in build 9A527 also sports a new high-resolution icon."


Seems like Apple is keeping with tradition and continues to modify the resources up until the very end. Like they did with the many other OS builds before it.

August 24th.

And thanks, i won't be needing to borrow your padded cell.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

I never said it was new. It's new enough. I was pointing out that like before, Apple is still futzing with the GUI up until the last minute.

And your evidence of this is a an article about a build from EIGHT WEEKS before release. Okay.

Except there've been pretty much no changes since then.

Here's one from SEPTEMBER 25:

On the surface 9A559 appears little changed from the previous build, 9A527. A new design graces the window of the installation disc and new music plays during the intro movie, but most changes are generally not noticeable.

They did some application-level stuff - a couple of apps got new icons, a new version of Front Row, but NO INTERFACE CHANGES SINCE AUGUST.

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Something I was told didn't happen.

That's just because it doesn't happen.

Originally Posted by Kevin 

They did the same from DP3 to 10.0.0

No. They did it between DP3 and DP4, both of which were NEVER RELEASED to the public.

There were hardly any changes between DP4 and the Public Beta, and those were four months apart.

For the fourth time.

[wobbly]

I don't understand the fascination with the UI and eye candy. I mean if there are tweaks and improvements in the guts of the OS, fine. Actual features that make using the system easier, fine. Things like expose, spotlight are great features. But all this fascination with the how a stupid button looks???? Honestly I was about to write "who gives a **** about any of that", but the level of response and debate about here is both frightening and humorous.

With increased revenues and market share I expect apple to to continue to give less and charge more for it, meanwhile fan boys will clap and applaud and perhaps gush with tears when an icon is finally positioned on the dock where they want it.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by wobbly 

I don't understand the fascination with the UI and eye candy. I mean if there are tweaks and improvements in the guts of the OS, fine. Actual features that make using the system easier, fine. Things like expose, spotlight are great features. But all this fascination with the how a stupid button looks???? Honestly I was about to write "who gives a **** about any of that", but the level of response and debate about here is both frightening and humorous.

With increased revenues and market share I expect apple to to continue to give less and charge more for it, meanwhile fan boys will clap and applaud and perhaps gush with tears when an icon is finally positioned on the dock where they want it.

You aren't at all alone in your thinking, but my theory is that there are a lot of graphic designers here that enjoy analyzing Apple's designs. I don't quite understand why some get worked up about this stuff to the extent they do, but to each their own...

[besson3c]

Also, you'll notice that a lot of these rumors sites that have posted stories about builds of Leopard have catered to this crowd in displaying new icons and stuff that to me couldn't be any more boring.

[jriveractu]

Originally Posted by wobbly 

I don't understand the fascination with the UI and eye candy. I mean if there are tweaks and improvements in the guts of the OS, fine. Actual features that make using the system easier, fine. Things like expose, spotlight are great features. But all this fascination with the how a stupid button looks???? Honestly I was about to write "who gives a **** about any of that", but the level of response and debate about here is both frightening and humorous.

With increased revenues and market share I expect apple to to continue to give less and charge more for it, meanwhile fan boys will clap and applaud and perhaps gush with tears when an icon is finally positioned on the dock where they want it.

There's some truth in what you speak but hell, I don't think my eyes can take the brushed metal much longer.

[Chuckit]

Would you rather they show a screenshot of the Terminal running uname?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Would you rather they show a screenshot of the Terminal running uname?

I would rather some testing and info about ZFS, some testing of Finder responsiveness under different conditions, some more information about Time Machine, how it works, what its limitations are (there seems to be very little info provided in the sites I frequent), iCal and iCal Server (I've seen none of this), etc. Maybe I just need to find more sites that will provide more technical information.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

So is it faster/slower or the same as 10.4.

No "Feels like" just hard numbers if you got em.

[.Neo]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I would rather some testing and info about ZFS, some testing of Finder responsiveness under different conditions, some more information about Time Machine, how it works, what its limitations are (there seems to be very little info provided in the sites I frequent), iCal and iCal Server (I've seen none of this), etc. Maybe I just need to find more sites that will provide more technical information.

Beyond the obvious visual differences and addition of new view options not much has changed in the inner workings of the Finder. From what I know it's still partially Carbon/Cacoa.

[wobbly]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

You aren't at all alone in your thinking, but my theory is that there are a lot of graphic designers here that enjoy analyzing Apple's designs. I don't quite understand why some get worked up about this stuff to the extent they do, but to each their own...

I didn't consider graphic designers who might have an appreciation for these subtleties. But yes, to each their own. My concerns stem from the level of buzz around these (in my mind trivial) details may lead to more investment on Apple's part to work on those instead of (in my mind useful things) stability, speed, ease of use etc.

[wobbly]

Originally Posted by jriveractu 

There's some truth in what you speak but hell, I don't think my eyes can take the brushed metal much longer.

I don't know what brushed metal is. Do you mean it hurts your eyes? You want it to look different because you are bored with it? Can't you customize all the colors and look in the preferences?

[0157988944]

The thing is, stability, speed, and ease of use gets more and more un-improvable each time, so it's more and more about making it look good. And right now the only thing keeping Leopard from looking good (ignoring the craptastic dock) is the damn aqua buttons and scrollbars.

As for brushed metal, it's the window texture in a lot of 10.4 windows. It's not changeable except by third party software.

[wobbly]

Originally Posted by adamfishercox 

The thing is, stability, speed, and ease of use gets more and more un-improvable each time, so it's more and more about making it look good. And right now the only thing keeping Leopard from looking good (ignoring the craptastic dock) is the damn aqua buttons and scrollbars.

As for brushed metal, it's the window texture in a lot of 10.4 windows. It's not changeable except by third party software.

I have a hunch that there are ways to make things stable, faster, easier but Apple is a business and they can't make it "good" in one fell swoop. They have to string us along with bits and pieces here and there, meanwhile planned obsolescence and huge marketing budgets ensure that we continue to purchase the "latest and greatest" even though it most certainly looks like its not and so as you say they cram it full of eye candy.

My sundial tells me its time to go check the level of coal in my furnace operating my steam engine for the trip back into work.