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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Do PC Folks Hate US or is it that WE Hate THEM?

Do PC Folks Hate US or is it that WE Hate THEM?
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Eynstyn
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Sep 1, 2005, 12:15 PM
 
I've noticed whenever I'm looking to see if a site supports Mac (especially if it has that distinctly PC/Microsoft look to it) I will search like CRAZY trying to find the recommended system requirements section or page and when I don't find it anywhere but then look for a contact ph# and there is none and then cross my fingers and try it it is ALWAYS an .exe kiss of Microsoft file death and I'm kicking myself for being so stupid.

They CAN"T be all that arrogent and egotistical to think there system is the only one, can they? I think they HATE US and do these things to mess with us. But who really started it? Them or US?
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turtle777
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Sep 1, 2005, 12:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eynstyn
But who really started it? Them or US?
It's always the US that starts trouble.

Uhm, wait, wrong topic and forum

-t
     
Mastrap
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Sep 1, 2005, 12:28 PM
 
It's just an operating system. Relaaaax, Winston.
     
m a d r a
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Sep 1, 2005, 12:29 PM
 
whenever i see someone using a PC i always get a feeling which is a combination of revulsion and pity
     
Eynstyn  (op)
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Sep 1, 2005, 12:32 PM
 
Doesn't anyone else ever get the idea that the PC ONLY sites hide or omit their system requirements on purpose to fark with us??
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IceEnclosure
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Sep 1, 2005, 12:45 PM
 
I don't hate someone for what computer they use. Now if that person makes ignorant/dumb/dimwitted/untrue statements about the OS I choose to use, then I knock their teef out.
ice
     
Eynstyn  (op)
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Sep 1, 2005, 12:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by IceEnclosure
I don't hate someone for what computer they use. Now if that person makes ignorant/dumb/dimwitted/untrue statements about the OS I choose to use, then I knock their teef out.
Doesn't anyone else ever get the idea that the PC ONLY sites hide or omit their system requirements on purpose to fark with us??
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turtle777
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Sep 1, 2005, 12:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eynstyn
PC ONLY sites hide or omit their system requirements on purpose to fark with us??
I guess you mean a IE ONLY site ?

-t
     
Warung
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Sep 1, 2005, 12:51 PM
 
I have no problem with PCs. Why? They don't scare me and I don't necessarily need a FOOL proof system to get the job done. I let the machine do the work for me, not the other way around.

Too bad there are so few of US.

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Eynstyn  (op)
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Sep 1, 2005, 12:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777
I guess you mean a IE ONLY site ?

-t
I guess. I'm no Steve Jobs. I had IE on my old iMac but some sites just wouldn't work whether IE or Netscape browser or whatever. Don't confuse the issue.
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Eynstyn  (op)
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Sep 1, 2005, 12:54 PM
 
I WISH I COULD RE-DO THE TITLE.

I don't care about the part everybody seems to be answering. I CARE about the part NOONE is answering.
Doesn't anyone else ever get the idea that the PC ONLY sites hide or omit their system requirements on purpose to fark with us??

WHY do they hide the system reqs???
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turtle777
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Sep 1, 2005, 12:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eynstyn
Doesn't anyone else ever get the idea that the PC ONLY sites hide or omit their system requirements on purpose to fark with us??
No. Someone who is stupid enough to make sites that are NOT HTML compliant is usually NOT doing this with the intention to shut out Mac users. It's unintentional. They are doing it because they are dumb, ignorant, narrow-minded, don't think it through, live on a island etc...

-t
     
Warung
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Sep 1, 2005, 01:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eynstyn
...get the idea that the PC ONLY sites hide or omit their system requirements on purpose to fark with us??
It's just bad web design, that's all. Nobody's farkin' with ya. You might wanna lay off the pot though for a while.

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Eynstyn  (op)
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Sep 1, 2005, 01:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777
No. Someone who is stupid enough to make sites that are NOT HTML compliant is usually NOT doing this with the intention to shut out Mac users. It's unintentional. They are doing it because they are dumb, ignorant, narrow-minded, don't think it through, live on a island etc...

-t
THANKS turtle777!

Finally, someone satisfied me!
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Eynstyn  (op)
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Sep 1, 2005, 01:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Warung
It's just bad web design, that's all. Nobody's farkin' with ya. You might wanna lay off the pot though for a while.
Don't you narc on me, man!
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IceEnclosure
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Sep 1, 2005, 01:25 PM
 
This thread is insane.
ice
     
Eynstyn  (op)
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Sep 1, 2005, 01:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by IceEnclosure
This thread is insane.
Welcome to my nightmare.

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d.fine
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Sep 1, 2005, 02:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777
It's always the US that starts trouble.

Uhm, wait, wrong topic and forum

-t


oh yea, don't take it personal. But I do find it hard as well to find info about Mac compatibility and the likes. Nothing we can do about it.

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Sep 1, 2005, 05:46 PM
 
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ghporter
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Sep 1, 2005, 07:58 PM
 
I'll go with Warung on this one-bad web design by "self taught" designers is the biggest problem on the web. And that includes the scary sites you accidentally come across. <brrrrrrr!>

You see, there are cheap and easy suites that let you make something really close to a REAL web site-except for all the funky, IE-only code and some funkier IE-for-Windows-only code in there too. It's called "Front Page," and it comes free with some versions of Office for Windows. And it SUCKS in terms of building pages because MS seems to think that standard HTML is just too plain and they have to jazz it up some. Yuck!

I started with and still frequently use PCs, and I run into pages that WON'T load in Firefox now and then. Worse, there are a number of institutions (like the school I just applied to) that have pretty good pages, except for certain online functions like online student applications... (We only support Interned Explorer and Netscape).

We don't need "Mac compatibility" since all the Mac browsers I've played with seem to be very standards-compliant. What we really need is STANDARDS-COMPLIANT WEB PAGES.

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olePigeon
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Sep 1, 2005, 08:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter
And it SUCKS in terms of building pages because MS seems to think that standard HTML is just too plain and they have to jazz it up some. Yuck!
No, they just find it easier to make sh*t up than to support xHTML, CSS, JavaScript, and Java.
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ghporter
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Sep 1, 2005, 08:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon
No, they just find it easier to make sh*t up than to support xHTML, CSS, JavaScript, and Java.
Well, yeah. But Microsoft likes to "redefine" things when they get sticky. The old joke "How many MS engineers does it take to change a lightbulb? None. They just redefine the standard to 'dark.'" is truer than a lot of people in Redmond like to admit.

The really ironic part about it is that there are FREE, COMPLIANT authoring tools out there for PCs. It's really the uneducated folks doing these really BAD pages.

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mojo2
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Sep 1, 2005, 08:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter
Well, yeah. But Microsoft likes to "redefine" things when they get sticky. The old joke "How many MS engineers does it take to change a lightbulb? None. They just redefine the standard to 'dark.'" is truer than a lot of people in Redmond like to admit.

The really ironic part about it is that there are FREE, COMPLIANT authoring tools out there for PCs. It's really the uneducated folks doing these really BAD pages.
Just to give ONE example of what REALLY irks me is an application or software function like online poker. Try PARTY POKER.

BTW, here's a wav file I saw on another thread. Bill Gates having problems demonstrating Win 98 before a large audience. Ooops!

http://www.barbneal.com/wav/uncat/billw98.wav

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m a d r a
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Sep 2, 2005, 04:44 AM
 
i think a lot of PC users really don't know that other operating systems even exist. quite often i'll get folk droning on to me about some problem they're having with their shit windoze box and expecting me to sort it out for them coz "you're good with computers". when i tell them i only use macs, they kind of stare at me blankly and say "what does that mean?" so then i explain that macs have their own operating system - more blank looks:

"operating system?"
"yes. you know when you turn on your computer and windows comes on?"
"er... yes"
well, that's your operating system and macs don't have windows. they have their own thing"

[cue looks of astonishment at the very thought that every single computer in the world does not run windows! ]

and it goes beyond the operating system as well. for most windoze-users the only software that ever gets installed on their computer after they take it out of the box are the hundreds of virii and worms they unknowingly download every day...

want to send out a document to someone? - you'll need word
want to send someone a graphic or illustration? - powerpoint's your man!
designing a webpage? - here - try frontpage [of course, that's only for the really advanced ones. most will just choose "save as HTML" out of 'word']
got some text-editing to do? - why bother with a text-editor with any kind of capabilities like syntax colouring when you've got wonderful notepad! [you ever opened a "txt" file saved in 'notepad'? - it cannae even do bloody linebreaks for feck's sake!]

i've lost count of the times corporations [even large ones like the BBC] have sent me out info in ".doc" or ". ppt" format or have asked for something-or-other to be submitted in "word format". i suppose it's a natural follow-on from thinking every single computer in the world runs windoze to thinking the only software suite installed on every single computer in the world is microshit office.

and i hate websites which won't let you access pages because they "require internet explorer 5 or later...". not they don't, you pricks! - it just happens to be the only browser your retarded, spotty 17 year old "l33t h4xxxor" web 'designer' has heard of!

ach! - **** 'em all! it's making me angry, just thinking about it!
     
mojo2
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Sep 2, 2005, 05:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by m a d r a
i think a lot of PC users really don't know that other operating systems even exist. quite often i'll get folk droning on to me about some problem they're having with their shit windoze box and expecting me to sort it out for them coz "you're good with computers". when i tell them i only use macs, they kind of stare at me blankly and say "what does that mean?" so then i explain that macs have their own operating system - more blank looks:

"operating system?"
"yes. you know when you turn on your computer and windows comes on?"
"er... yes"
well, that's your operating system and macs don't have windows. they have their own thing"

[cue looks of astonishment at the very thought that every single computer in the world does not run windows! ]

and it goes beyond the operating system as well. for most windoze-users the only software that ever gets installed on their computer after they take it out of the box are the hundreds of virii and worms they unknowingly download every day...

want to send out a document to someone? - you'll need word
want to send someone a graphic or illustration? - powerpoint's your man!
designing a webpage? - here - try frontpage [of course, that's only for the really advanced ones. most will just choose "save as HTML" out of 'word']
got some text-editing to do? - why bother with a text-editor with any kind of capabilities like syntax colouring when you've got wonderful notepad! [you ever opened a "txt" file saved in 'notepad'? - it cannae even do bloody linebreaks for feck's sake!]

i've lost count of the times corporations [even large ones like the BBC] have sent me out info in ".doc" or ". ppt" format or have asked for something-or-other to be submitted in "word format". i suppose it's a natural follow-on from thinking every single computer in the world runs windoze to thinking the only software suite installed on every single computer in the world is microshit office.

and i hate websites which won't let you access pages because they "require internet explorer 5 or later...". not they don't, you pricks! - it just happens to be the only browser your retarded, spotty 17 year old "l33t h4xxxor" web 'designer' has heard of!

ach! - **** 'em all! it's making me angry, just thinking about it!
THANK YOU!!!


I am as angry as you and I'm not EVEN as well versed as you are in computer-ese and mac-ability.
Give petty people just a little bit of power and watch how they misuse it! You can't silence the self doubt, can you?
     
Link
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Sep 2, 2005, 07:12 AM
 
I've run plenty of "standards checkers" on my sites before to find that well, it wasn't worth the time or effort to make them "standards compliant", instead I just make sure that first they get the message out the way I want them to (in concept), apply it to php and html and whatnot, then fix it as needed to work in firefox/camino/safari. Honestly, most of the people who head by the sites I work on use firefox anyway, so I don't really worry about catering to IE users.

It's funny, but nowadays I tend to have more problems with safari than I do with gecko browsers, I guess it got pickier with code because back in the 1.x days, I'd see more bugs with camino/firefox than I did in safari.. hehe. Oh well.

Back to the topic, I don't like that Windows has become so common that well, its existence is invisible to the general public: Everyone assumes that anything remotely resembling a computer runs Windows, and that many of its quirks that are due to MS' poor management of it are just written off as "that's how computers are". Personally, I find it even more ironic when someone has a computer that gets filled with crapware or whatever and then it acts like crap (or gets an invalid NTLDB or screwed up partition or something due to serious fragmentation/well, crap OS design).. and blames it on the manufacturer of the computer.. I've seen that before several times now.

"My HP was great at first but it got sooo slow! NEXT TIME I'M BUYING A DELL!"

F*cking genius.

What makes me laugh though is how well, the most common reason people don't buy a mac is "they're not compatible; I don't care if Apple turned OS X into a fancy theme for Windows, people would *STILL* be reciting this one! Yet, MS has been pulling a whole ad campaign of "tons of apps in the world. ONLY FOR WINDOWS!"
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m a d r a
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Sep 2, 2005, 07:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Link
I've run plenty of "standards checkers" on my sites before to find that well, it wasn't worth the time or effort to make them "standards compliant"......
well, if i might quote from a great man i really respect, posting in the web design forum...

1. design your site using standards compliant code.
2. check it validates on W3C website.
3. publish site.
4. apply boot to testicles of anyone using internet explorer who tries to tell you the site "isn't working properly", whilst shouting loudly "no. your f**king browser isn't working properly!"

repeat until microsoft release standards compliant browser [or ad infinitum - whichever is the sooner]

Originally Posted by Link
What makes me laugh though is how well, the most common reason people don't buy a mac is "they're not compatible......
or even worse, they won't buy a mac coz it "doesn't run windows" - er... yes. that's the whole point!
     
Chris O'Brien
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Sep 2, 2005, 08:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by m a d r a
1. design your site using standards compliant code.
2. check it validates on W3C website.
3. publish site.
4. apply boot to testicles of anyone using internet explorer who tries to tell you the site "isn't working properly", whilst shouting loudly "no. your f**king browser isn't working properly!"

repeat until microsoft release standards compliant browser [or ad infinitum - whichever is the sooner]
Was that Phil?
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m a d r a
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Sep 2, 2005, 09:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by Black Book
Was that Phil?
phil?! - c'mon i said a "great man i really respect" - not some tuppence ha'penny hack with a napoleon complex!
     
Doofy
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Sep 2, 2005, 09:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by m a d r a
i think a lot of PC users really don't know that other operating systems even exist. quite often i'll get folk droning on to me about some problem they're having with their shit windoze box and expecting me to sort it out for them coz "you're good with computers". when i tell them i only use macs, they kind of stare at me blankly and say "what does that mean?" so then i explain that macs have their own operating system - more blank looks.
Oh yeah.

I just tell 'em to take their lump of junk back to whoever they bought if off. Unless they're a seriously hot chick, obviously.
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euphras
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Sep 2, 2005, 09:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777
No. Someone who is stupid enough to make sites that are NOT HTML compliant is usually NOT doing this with the intention to shut out Mac users. It's unintentional. They are doing it because they are dumb, ignorant, narrow-minded, don't think it through, live on a island etc...

-t
Second that. The average John Doe or Herr Müller doesn´t even know that there are alternatives to Windows. If you´re lucky they know Macs as some exotic non-compatible computers ("well, kinda because it cannot run Windows") that "are good for graphics".

Now in the age of iTunes/iPod things change but it will take time...


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Link
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Sep 2, 2005, 03:07 PM
 
Yes, hanging out on a non-mac-centric forum, you hear the "oh, yeah macs are okay for graphics and (either video or audio), but they can't play games" too much.

And the Apple // used to be called a toy it had so many games. How come back then being called a toy was bad and today it's good?
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Sep 2, 2005, 10:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by Warung
I have no problem with PCs. Why? They don't scare me and I don't necessarily need a FOOL proof system to get the job done. I let the machine do the work for me, not the other way around.

Too bad there are so few of US.
Nah. There are a lot more people like you than you think. They’re called reasonable, rational, normal people.

Those that actually have ‘hate’ for anyone based on who uses what consumer product are so shackled to the corporate marketing plantation there’s little hope of liberating them.
     
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Sep 2, 2005, 10:56 PM
 
i think it's a mutual hatage
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loki74
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Sep 2, 2005, 11:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by m a d r a
i think a lot of PC users really don't know that other operating systems even exist. quite often i'll get folk droning on to me about some problem they're having with their shit windoze box and expecting me to sort it out for them coz "you're good with computers". when i tell them i only use macs, they kind of stare at me blankly and say "what does that mean?" so then i explain that macs have their own operating system - more blank looks:

"operating system?"
"yes. you know when you turn on your computer and windows comes on?"
"er... yes"
well, that's your operating system and macs don't have windows. they have their own thing"

[cue looks of astonishment at the very thought that every single computer in the world does not run windows! ]

and it goes beyond the operating system as well. for most windoze-users the only software that ever gets installed on their computer after they take it out of the box are the hundreds of virii and worms they unknowingly download every day...

want to send out a document to someone? - you'll need word
want to send someone a graphic or illustration? - powerpoint's your man!
designing a webpage? - here - try frontpage [of course, that's only for the really advanced ones. most will just choose "save as HTML" out of 'word']
got some text-editing to do? - why bother with a text-editor with any kind of capabilities like syntax colouring when you've got wonderful notepad! [you ever opened a "txt" file saved in 'notepad'? - it cannae even do bloody linebreaks for feck's sake!]

i've lost count of the times corporations [even large ones like the BBC] have sent me out info in ".doc" or ". ppt" format or have asked for something-or-other to be submitted in "word format". i suppose it's a natural follow-on from thinking every single computer in the world runs windoze to thinking the only software suite installed on every single computer in the world is microshit office.

and i hate websites which won't let you access pages because they "require internet explorer 5 or later...". not they don't, you pricks! - it just happens to be the only browser your retarded, spotty 17 year old "l33t h4xxxor" web 'designer' has heard of!

ach! - **** 'em all! it's making me angry, just thinking about it!
This is all true, but the case that the OP is talking about is application developers, no? As far as application developers not providing OSX versions of their software, that often has to do with either reliance on the Win32API (or other Windows OS reliance) or possibly a lack of resources or ability to port.

As for System Requirements not being listed... I've never had this happen to me. Could you (OP) direct us to what site/software you are referring to? It seems to me INCREDIBLY stupid to omit system requirements, and I do not see why any software company would do this.

And sites that require IE... I won't even give them the honor of a hit. (Well, aside from the all-telling first visit). This is massively stupid, ESPECIALLY if you are trying to market a product of ANY type. And this doesn't even have to do anything with OSX/Windows--a LOT of PC users use other types of browsers. They're shooting themselves in the foot by doing this and being so arrogant. Opera solves this problem very cracefully, as it can masquerade as pretty much any browser... but its table-rendering is atrocious. If it wasn't for that, I would be using Opera right now.

As a 16 (17 in November) year old graphic artist/web designer who is by no means a "l337 h4xX0r" I always put a text at the bottom of the page with reccomended screen res/browser type. NOTHING MORE. ...Oh well.

==========================

Warung: I don't think that anyone is really scared by PC's... well I guess there are those crazies out there ("zealots?") but there are a lot of reasonable people.

I don't think that any system is foolproof. But I do need something that's foolproof to the effect that at 72% of rendering a 3D animation which has been rendering for the past 8 hours (not that long actually), the system will not decide to restart on its own. I also need it foolproof to the effect that I can do what I want when I want to. I don't like being nagged.

You say you want to machine to work for you, not the other way around. It is true that you should not be working for your machine (part of the reason I use a Mac) but I would disagree with the first part of your statement. I want the machine to enable me to do what I want to do. I do not want it to do anything I don't tell it to (or know that it is going to) do. Furthermore, I do not want it to ask me if I want to do something unless it cannot proceed unless I make that decision. My computer should fuction as a tool, not a secratary or a tourguide.

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Sep 3, 2005, 06:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by m a d r a
phil?! - c'mon i said a "great man i really respect" - not some tuppence ha'penny hack with a napoleon complex!
I'm taller than that bugger, anyway. Pikey.
     
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Sep 3, 2005, 11:05 AM
 
I hate PC users solely because I have to make friends with only 3-5% of the world population that uses computers. Quite a time saver.
     
m a d r a
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Sep 3, 2005, 12:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Phil Sherry
I'm taller than that bugger, anyway. Pikey.
how can you measure "taller" if you're horizontal after two bottles of baked bean flavoured beer*?


[*this is a subtle reference to the alcohol-holding capacity of a certain 'author' i know]
     
m a d r a
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Sep 3, 2005, 12:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by loki74
As for System Requirements not being listed... I've never had this happen to me. Could you (OP) direct us to what site/software you are referring to? It seems to me INCREDIBLY stupid to omit system requirements, and I do not see why any software company would do this.....
OP is right. i've seen this on a load of sites. if system requirements aren't listed, i just assume it's a windoze only app.

Originally Posted by loki74
....Opera solves this problem very cracefully, as it can masquerade as pretty much any browser...
safari can do that too. it's in the "debug menu" which isnae there by default, but which various utilities, including tinkertool [i think!] can enable for you
     
production_coordinator
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Sep 3, 2005, 12:29 PM
 
I'm finding that people are more open to Macs now than any time I can remember.

Perhaps it's because I'm older, but there was a time when I really had to fight for my Mac... it's not as hard now.
     
mojo2
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Sep 3, 2005, 12:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by loki74

As for System Requirements not being listed... I've never had this happen to me. Could you (OP) direct us to what site/software you are referring to? It seems to me INCREDIBLY stupid to omit system requirements, and I do not see why any software company would do this.
I just wrote a physical reminder to myself whenever I run across this (no sys. reqs. listed) I will leave a post here with details to that effect.

I invite everyone else here to do the same.

Thanks.
Give petty people just a little bit of power and watch how they misuse it! You can't silence the self doubt, can you?
     
itistoday
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Sep 3, 2005, 01:13 PM
 
I'll try explaining this one more time: It's just that we like using a better quality product. Those that hate on either side of the fence are a bunch of idiots with too much time on their hands.
     
loki74
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Sep 3, 2005, 07:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by m a d r a
OP is right. i've seen this on a load of sites. if system requirements aren't listed, i just assume it's a windoze only app.
Well, I guess it's their loss, on both counts. (Windows only & not listing sys requirements).

Just out of curiosity, what kind of programs are these? Like, what do they do? Is it just some nifty cool thing or a serious application that lets you create (ie office, photoshop, maya)? Cause I've never actually needed something that was windows only, as far as work goes--all my 3D sh!t runs on OSX, as for my NLE I use FCP. (The only NLE I know of that is Windows only is Vegas, which aint that great anyway)

There are two progams I wish would run on OSX though: WinAmp (OBVIOUSLY for windows, you can tell by the name) and GameMaker, which explicitly states that it will not run on OSX, as well as the reasons for that.

PS I'm not trying to argue here--I'm just a bit curious...

"In a world without walls or fences, what need have we for windows or gates?"
     
itistoday
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Sep 3, 2005, 07:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by loki74
There are two progams I wish would run on OSX though: WinAmp (OBVIOUSLY for windows, you can tell by the name) and GameMaker, which explicitly states that it will not run on OSX, as well as the reasons for that.
OS X has winamp in the form of XMMS. They are almost identical. Use Fink + Apple's X11 to run XMMS.

I've never heard of GameMaker, but OS X has a lot of game development applications that will make games for you, like, for example, the great Unity.
     
loki74
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Sep 3, 2005, 07:39 PM
 
oh yeah, I've heard of Unity alright... very powerful, very expensive. Game Maker is cheap, VERY "indie," doesnt compare... but I'm not a serious developer, so it would be cool.

I will look into XMMS, that sounds pretty cool, thanks!

"In a world without walls or fences, what need have we for windows or gates?"
     
itistoday
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Sep 3, 2005, 07:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by loki74
oh yeah, I've heard of Unity alright... very powerful, very expensive. Game Maker is cheap, VERY "indie," doesnt compare... but I'm not a serious developer, so it would be cool.

I will look into XMMS, that sounds pretty cool, thanks!
You'll need to install Fink to apt-get it, and install Apple's X11 so that you can actually use it.
     
mania
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Sep 4, 2005, 08:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by m a d r a
whenever i see someone using a PC i always get a feeling which is a combination of revulsion and pity
     
budster101
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Sep 4, 2005, 09:54 PM
 
Hey, that's the way I feel when I see DELL anything.
     
   
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