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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Fahrenheit 911: Will you see it?

View Poll Results: Will you see it?
Poll Options:
Yes and I lean left. 28 votes (31.46%)
Yes and I lean right. 5 votes (5.62%)
No and I lean left. 3 votes (3.37%)
No and I lean right. 9 votes (10.11%)
Yes and my legs are straight thankyouverymuch. 33 votes (37.08%)
No and I prefer to sit. 11 votes (12.36%)
Voters: 89. You may not vote on this poll
Fahrenheit 911: Will you see it? (Page 3)
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Zimphire
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Jun 25, 2004, 02:31 AM
 
Originally posted by MOTHERWELL:
Absolutely. Michael Moore is a talentless hack


Fixed.
     
MOTHERWELL
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Jun 25, 2004, 02:34 AM
 
Originally posted by george68:
I don't like propaganda.
You are surrounded by it.

Originally posted by george68:
He's a ****ing retard, and he can shove all his stupid one sided 'brainwashing the youth' films straight up his ass as far as I'm concerned.
Incredibly profound. Why does a movie make you so angry?


I am by no means a Michael Moore fanatic, but it is a fact that he is a talented filmmaker. A good storyteller whose films are for my entertainment. I watch them for the same reason I watch any movie -- to have an emotional response. When I watched Bowling for Columbine I was angry, then laughing, and then crying. This is the exact reason we watch movies, which are all 'one sided' btw. I don't remember watching a film where I wanted the good guy AND the bad guy to prevail.


Ostensibly this film's purpose is to remove Bush from office. But if people allow some filmmaker to sway their opinion in any direction, I am incredibly worried.
     
zachs
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Jun 25, 2004, 02:46 AM
 
Originally posted by george68:
I don't like propaganda. Hence, I don't like Michael Moore. All he makes is propaganda, and I'm sick of one-sided viewpoints like his. He's a ****ing retard, and he can shove all his stupid one sided 'brainwashing the youth' films straight up his ass as far as I'm concerned.

- Rob
a.) Propaganda isn't a bad thing when it's backed up by facts.
b.) If you don't like his point of view, don't watch his movies.
c.) Is the ad hominem necessary?
     
Zimphire
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Jun 25, 2004, 03:27 AM
 
Originally posted by MOTHERWELL:

I am by no means a Michael Moore fanatic, but it is a fact that he is a talented filmmaker. A good storyteller whose films are for my entertainment. I watch them for the same reason I watch any movie -- to have an emotional response. When I watched Bowling for Columbine I was angry, then laughing, and then crying. This is the exact reason we watch movies, which are all 'one sided' btw. I don't remember watching a film where I wanted the good guy AND the bad guy to prevail.

The problem is.. people take his work seriously. Like it is based on truth. He calls others liars while lying out his big fat mouth.
     
Zimphire
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Jun 25, 2004, 03:27 AM
 
Originally posted by zachs:
a.) Propaganda isn't a bad thing when it's backed up by facts.
Right. But this isn't the case with Michael Moore. His movies are backed by his fat ass.
( Last edited by Zimphire; Jun 25, 2004 at 03:57 AM. )
     
- - e r i k - -
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Jun 25, 2004, 03:54 AM
 
Originally posted by zachs:
b.) If you don't like his point of view, don't watch his movies.
No, I think this is the exact reason you should watch it. If you don't expose yourself to "the other side" of opinions you can never stay balanced. It might re-inforce your views or it might moderate your views. Either way, you owe it to yourself to gather as many sides of a case as possible and apply critical thinking to form your own opinion for yourself.

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cszar2001
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Jun 25, 2004, 04:01 AM
 
Waiting for the DVD-as always.
And since Im able to think for myself I`m in no danger to fall for any propaganda that might come across.
"Microsoft is a cross between the Borg and the Ferengi. Unfortunately, they use Borg to do their marketing and Ferengi to do their programming." Simon Slavin

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Logic
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Jun 25, 2004, 06:34 AM
 
Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
No, I think this is the exact reason you should watch it. If you don't expose yourself to "the other side" of opinions you can never stay balanced. It might re-inforce your views or it might moderate your views. Either way, you owe it to yourself to gather as many sides of a case as possible and apply critical thinking to form your own opinion for yourself.

"If Bush says we hate freedom, let him tell us why we didn't attack Sweden, for example. OBL 29th oct
     
lil'babykitten
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Jun 25, 2004, 06:54 AM
 
Ya, I'll probably see it. He is a bit of a loon but he brings up some pretty interesting stuff. You can always make an effort to verify his 'facts' afterwards anyway. I'm sure a lot of his critics will too. Nothing to lose from seeing it.
     
ryju
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Jun 25, 2004, 08:19 AM
 
[brainwashed] must... crush... capitalism [/brainwashed]
     
george68
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Jun 25, 2004, 08:27 AM
 
Originally posted by zachs:
a.) Propaganda isn't a bad thing when it's backed up by facts.
b.) If you don't like his point of view, don't watch his movies.
c.) Is the ad hominem necessary?
Things you haven't considered because you are brainwashed:

a. He filters the truth- the only 'facts' you see in his movies are ones that support his one-sided fairly stupid/unrealistic viewpoint. If you are about facts, please go to someplace like www.bowlingfortruth.com right after you watch his other stupid movie, and hopefully you'll be able to find the truth.

b. I won't. But they are not movies. They are propaganda. The sad thing is people don't realize this and actually pay to go see them.

- Rob
     
george68
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Jun 25, 2004, 08:29 AM
 
Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:
The truth hurts eh
Sort of. The complete truth is great, and does not hurt. It does however, hurt to have some fatass filter the truth and present a bunch of extreme viewpoints from only one side, sell it as the complete truth, and brainwash a lot of people into believing that his movies are factual and real.

- Rob
     
george68
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Jun 25, 2004, 08:35 AM
 
Originally posted by MOTHERWELL:
You are surrounded by it.
True. Which is why I won't be paying to see any more of it, nor will I waste my time on it.


Incredibly profound. Why does a movie make you so angry?
It is NOT a movie. It is propaganda. And it pisses me off because he basically presents the fairly uninformed easily defeatable liberals viewpoint that "Bush= the devil" and a bunch of other stupid ****ign crap like "the only reason we went to iraq was so bush could get more oil!" and stuff like that. He then makes some MTV-esque film and pushes it nationwide, getting a bunch of uninformed young people to go see it, and completely brainwash them into stupid liberal robots. It's happened to a few of my friends. Do I support Bush? Somewhat. Some things about the guy are good. Some are bad. That said, I think he's a fairly sucky president, and I'd rather have someone else.... but Kerry? He sucks also. The problem is we have a TWO PARTY SYSTEM, and it's destined for failure. If one party is 'pro' something, the other one usually automatically goes to 'con'. They completely polarize each other, and now NEITHER party accurately represents most people's real viewpoints. So instead of trying to fix this problem (get a 3rd party), Moore just keeps the 2 party machine going.

But if people allow some filmmaker to sway their opinion in any direction, I am incredibly worried.
Start worrying. Do you know how many liberals think Bowling For Truth is an accurate documentary about guns in america, and it's the whole complete truth??? It's ****ing scary.

- Rob
     
gerbnl
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Jun 25, 2004, 09:05 AM
 
Originally posted by olePigeon:
I've convinced a few of my Republican friends to go ahead and see it, but God damn I never had to do so much convincing in my life. It's like I was asking them to cut off their arm.
I'll be downloading it shortly. Just for kicks, now you succeeded in convincing them to go see a movie, why not try for the actual cutting off of arms?
These people are Americans. Don't expect anything meaningful or... uh... normalcy...
     
gerbnl
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Jun 25, 2004, 09:09 AM
 
Originally posted by george68:
Start worrying. Do you know how many liberals think Bowling For Truth is an accurate documentary about guns in america, and it's the whole complete truth??? It's ****ing scary.

- Rob
Do you know how many conservatives think big network news broadcasts are an accurate representation about what is going on in america, and it's the whole complete truth??? It's ****ing scary.

- Me
These people are Americans. Don't expect anything meaningful or... uh... normalcy...
     
PacHead
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Jun 25, 2004, 10:25 AM
 
As stated in the Chris Hitchens article about Moore, one of the main differences between Moore and the Nazi Propaganda film makers, is that he is not as filmic, nor as talented as some of these Germans were. Other than that, they utilize many of the same techniques.

The Cannes festival has forever lost it's credibility, and will be seen upon in the future as pure crap by many people, since certain hateful people have used this festival, where prizes are supposed to be awarded based on pure "artistic" merit, to send a political message instead.
     
vertex
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Jun 25, 2004, 11:13 AM
 
I'm going to see it. It can be no worse than the spin Governments put out, and the [email protected] that TV networks choose to shove onto our screens. Both of those above masquerading Political bias as truth, and thus attempting to influence societal opinions.

It's a film, it's one person's view on their society.
     
MOTHERWELL
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Jun 25, 2004, 11:22 AM
 
Originally posted by PacHead:
The Cannes festival has forever lost it's credibility, and will be seen upon in the future as pure crap by many people, since certain hateful people have used this festival, where prizes are supposed to be awarded based on pure "artistic" merit, to send a political message instead.
It has? Oh! Becuase all of the winners from Cannes are never forgotten right?

Hmmmmm, now who won last year? Or the year before.......It's a little fuzzy....



P.S. Google will probably know, and then so will you!!!
     
goeagle
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Jun 25, 2004, 11:22 AM
 
Originally posted by funkboy:
Remember kids...
fixed.
     
cszar2001
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Jun 25, 2004, 11:30 AM
 
Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
No, I think this is the exact reason you should watch it. If you don't expose yourself to "the other side" of opinions you can never stay balanced. It might re-inforce your views or it might moderate your views. Either way, you owe it to yourself to gather as many sides of a case as possible and apply critical thinking to form your own opinion for yourself.

Most people don`t want to stay balanced-that`s the problem.
"Microsoft is a cross between the Borg and the Ferengi. Unfortunately, they use Borg to do their marketing and Ferengi to do their programming." Simon Slavin

Me on Flickr.
     
wdlove
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Jun 25, 2004, 11:30 AM
 
That is one movie that I know that I will never see. It is just outright Democrtat party propaganda.

"Never give in, never give in, never, never, never, never - in nothing, great or small, large or petty - never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense." Winston Churchill
     
DeathToWindows
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Jun 25, 2004, 11:33 AM
 
I'll see it.

Considering I'm a self-described flaming liberal.

Don't try to outweird me, I get stranger things than you free with my breakfast cereal.
     
PacHead
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Jun 25, 2004, 11:34 AM
 
Originally posted by cszar2001:

Most people don`t want to stay balanced-that`s the problem.
Watching lies can hardly be called "staying balanced".
     
MOTHERWELL
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Jun 25, 2004, 11:40 AM
 
Originally posted by george68:
It is NOT a movie. It is propaganda. And it pisses me off because he basically presents the fairly uninformed easily defeatable liberals viewpoint that "Bush= the devil" and a bunch of other stupid ****ign crap like "the only reason we went to iraq was so bush could get more oil!" and stuff like that.
GOOD! The uninformed have just become informed! No one is going to see this movie and then go home and say "My views are Michael Moore's views." People are going to have conversations, arguments, and finally get involved! For once the masses are not going to sit and do nothing! I congratulate anyone who is capable of doing that, regardless of their opinions and affiliations.

Originally posted by george68:
He then makes some MTV-esque film and pushes it nationwide, getting a bunch of uninformed young people to go see it, and completely brainwash them into stupid liberal robots.
The stigma of 'MTV style' gets overused and is meaningless. And once again, the people who see this film will become active and talk about what they saw. Outstanding.

Originally posted by george68:
So instead of trying to fix this problem (get a 3rd party), Moore just keeps the 2 party machine going.
Then make a film about it. It's worked before and it will work again.
     
cszar2001
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Jun 25, 2004, 11:43 AM
 
Originally posted by PacHead:
Watching lies can hardly be called "staying balanced".
All the reasons that were given for the invasion of Iraq were false.
They told the security council one thing on Monday-and a totally different story on Friday.
So if one side has told lies all the time-why not listen to lies from the other side as well?
"Microsoft is a cross between the Borg and the Ferengi. Unfortunately, they use Borg to do their marketing and Ferengi to do their programming." Simon Slavin

Me on Flickr.
     
AB^2=BCxAC
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Jun 25, 2004, 11:52 AM
 
It's one thing to complain of propaganda when it's from a government and another thing all together when it's from a company, and still yet another thing completely when it's from an individual's perpsective (an Op-Ed).

Love him or hate him, Michal Moore likes shining a light on the first two styles of propaganda by using the latter, and it may be hypocritical but it's still fighting on unequal terms, and it's a light more people ought to shine (especially on our foul tempered administration (good job Cheney, swearing in the Senate - hats off to you)).
"I stand accused, just like you, for being born without a silver spoon." Richard Ashcroft
     
gerbnl
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Jun 25, 2004, 12:04 PM
 
I was wondering, how many here have seen "Orwell Rolls in his Grave". Found it way less sensationalist than MM's work, but entirely as disturbing, concerned and sincere. But, it's hardly registers on IMDB. At least as recommendable as F911 or BFC, or really even more so.
These people are Americans. Don't expect anything meaningful or... uh... normalcy...
     
Zimphire
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Jun 25, 2004, 12:27 PM
 
Originally posted by PacHead:
As stated in the Chris Hitchens article about Moore, one of the main differences between Moore and the Nazi Propaganda film makers, is that he is not as filmic, nor as talented as some of these Germans were. Other than that, they utilize many of the same techniques.

The Cannes festival has forever lost it's credibility, and will be seen upon in the future as pure crap by many people, since certain hateful people have used this festival, where prizes are supposed to be awarded based on pure "artistic" merit, to send a political message instead.
Indeed.
     
vertex
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Jun 25, 2004, 12:46 PM
 
Originally posted by wdlove:
That is one movie that I know that I will never see. It is just outright Democrtat party propaganda.
I hear the Republican party do a nice twist on the skewing of facts too. It's only natural for people to oppose views such as Moore's; but hyperbole and attacks on his character usually seem to be more visible than those truly countering, and demolishing his arguments.

Of course he has a message to say, and he's doing that in his own way. I'm not gonna rub the guy's views out because he has an interesting perspective on matters, and a way of delivering them.
     
ghost_flash
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Jun 25, 2004, 01:27 PM
 
(Originally posted by Pachead)

"As stated in the Chris Hitchens article about Moore, one of the main differences between Moore and the Nazi Propaganda film makers, is that he is not as filmic, nor as talented as some of these Germans were. Other than that, they utilize many of the same techniques.

The Cannes festival has forever lost it's credibility, and will be seen upon in the future as pure crap by many people, since certain hateful people have used this festival, where prizes are supposed to be awarded based on pure "artistic" merit, to send a political message instead."
...
     
Eug Wanker
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Jun 25, 2004, 01:42 PM
 
Yeah, Michael Moore is a left wing nutjob propagandist, but I find parts of his movies amusing nonetheless. I particularly liked the interview of Marilyn Manson in BFC. He sounded like the smartest person in the entire movie (Michael Moore included).
     
phoenixboy70
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Jun 25, 2004, 01:59 PM
 
no matter what you think about moore. the attitudes and rhetoric presented by american conservatives and neocons is almost exactly the same as the one OFFICIALLY presented by the nsdap in the early 1930s.

the whole "false attribution" philosophy, the rhetoric of bringing peace through war, the whole reliance on myth and fascist cultural symbols is almost uncanny.

anybody who can deconstruct and read between the lines clearly sees this.

moore simply raises a few questions und points to SEVERAL and very real inconsistencies.
( Last edited by phoenixboy70; Jun 25, 2004 at 02:06 PM. )
     
Eug Wanker
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Jun 25, 2004, 02:00 PM
 
Hmmm... F911 is doing pretty well at Rotten Tomatoes: 81%

CONSENSUS
Extremely one-sided... but worth watching for the humor and the debates it'll stir.


Not sure about F911, but that's exactly what I though BFC and Roger & Me.
     
wolfen
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Jun 25, 2004, 02:01 PM
 
I was listening to some typical republican bashing of the movie. One of the senators Moore "ambushed" and essentially asked "Would you sign up your kids to serve in Iraq?" The movie did not contain the part where the senator said "I have a nephew in Iraq". The senator got all peeved that this wasn't in the movie, as though this meant Moore's point was made dishonestly.

I say it wasn't. Wtf do I care if the senator has a nephew in Iraq? The question regarded HIS kids. Apparently several senators responded with righteous indignation that they had distant family members in Iraq, that the movie omitted those responses, and that these responses somehow invalidated Moore's point.

They don't. They're willing to send everyone ELSE'S kids to war. They are not risking as much as they demand others to risk. Yet they (republican senators) gain politically and possibly financially by sacrifices our children make.

The editing was appropriate, the remarks were irrelevant, the point was made.
Do you want forgiveness or respect?
     
PacHead
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Jun 25, 2004, 02:21 PM
 
Originally posted by wolfen:
The movie did not contain the part where the senator said "I have a nephew in Iraq".

Wtf do I care if these responses invalidated Moore's point.

How do you like my "Moore" overhaul of your post ?

     
wolfen
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Jun 25, 2004, 03:19 PM
 
Originally posted by PacHead:
How do you like my "Moore" overhaul of your post ?

Wow. You are talented.
Do you want forgiveness or respect?
     
AB^2=BCxAC
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Jun 25, 2004, 03:53 PM
 
Originally posted by ghost_flash:
(Originally posted by Pachead)

"As stated in the Chris Hitchens article about Moore, one of the main differences between Moore and the Nazi Propaganda film makers, is that he is not as filmic, nor as talented as some of these Germans were. Other than that, they utilize many of the same techniques.

The Cannes festival has forever lost it's credibility, and will be seen upon in the future as pure crap by many people, since certain hateful people have used this festival, where prizes are supposed to be awarded based on pure "artistic" merit, to send a political message instead."
Yeah, Hitchens is suddenly a film history expert on narrative technique and a body of international filmmakers were all wrong. I have property in Manhattan, an 11 story building I'd like to sell you... just $10,000 cash. Interested? (in other words, Moore-heads aren't the only ones who might be gullible)
"I stand accused, just like you, for being born without a silver spoon." Richard Ashcroft
     
velodev
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Jun 25, 2004, 05:48 PM
 
Originally posted by PacHead:
The Cannes festival has forever lost it's credibility, and will be seen upon in the future as pure crap by many people, since certain hateful people have used this festival, where prizes are supposed to be awarded based on pure "artistic" merit, to send a political message instead.
Personally, I know his message is biased. However, it can still be considered art. He is creating a "story" and putting it into film. What's the difference between "Howard the Duck" and "F 9/11"? Just because the audience interprets it as true doesn't remove it from being a piece of art. Is Maplethorpe an artist? Some people consider him a pornographer.

I think it is an piece of art but I am allowed to interpret it as a piece of junk.
     
sideus
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Jun 25, 2004, 06:42 PM
 
Originally posted by velodev:
Personally, I know his message is biased. However, it can still be considered art. He is creating a "story" and putting it into film. What's the difference between "Howard the Duck" and "F 9/11"? Just because the audience interprets it as true doesn't remove it from being a piece of art. Is Maplethorpe an artist? Some people consider him a pornographer.

I think it is an piece of art but I am allowed to interpret it as a piece of junk.
Howard the Duck is a much better movie.
     
ghost_flash
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Jun 25, 2004, 07:06 PM
 
I'd rather watch Gigli (alla "A Clockwork Orange") with my eyes forced open with clamps my tiddly widdly's.
...
     
MOTHERWELL
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Jun 25, 2004, 07:22 PM
 
Gigli isn't as bad as everyone thinks. Everyone was just so excited to slam the stars that they completely ruined the movie. But that's off the topic!
     
Buck_W
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Jun 25, 2004, 10:28 PM
 
I will not see it. Fiction never did anything for me.
17" MacBook Pro 2.66 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo | 320G HD | 8 GB RAM | 10.10.3
     
MOTHERWELL
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Jun 25, 2004, 10:51 PM
 
^^^

     
macintologist
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Jun 26, 2004, 01:22 AM
 
I just saw the movie. It was certainly cinematically effective and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

I'm waiting for a site similar to bowlingfortruth to come up so I can read some detailed debunks to some of his intricate analyses, especially the ones on the bin Ladens and Bath.

I honestly don't understand why all the smart rightwing film makers like Evan Maloney from brain-terminal.com, the Protestwarriors and others team up and make a really good pro-war etc film. It could be really well done. Btw, I saw the trailer to the movie "moore hates america" and it was pretty crap. You gotta do better than that guys.
     
dole
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Jun 26, 2004, 01:22 AM
 
Originally posted by Spliff:
The New York Times had an article about how Moore has taken great pains to check the facts in the movie. It sounds as if he learned his lesson from "Bowling." That's a good thing.
It don't seem like he fully learned his lesson. He said Bush was the person who let members of the bin Laden family leave the country after 9/11, but it was Richard Clarke who let them go. Anyways, I might check it out once it comes to DVD.

http://www.thehill.com/news/052604/clarke.aspx
     
macintologist
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Jun 26, 2004, 01:25 AM
 
Originally posted by wdlove:
That is one movie that I know that I will never see. It is just outright Democrtat party propaganda.
Coming from someone who hasn't even seen it. You're right, but at least watch the movie before coming to a conclusion on it.
     
Eug Wanker
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Jun 26, 2004, 01:26 AM
 
Originally posted by MOTHERWELL:
Gigli isn't as bad as everyone thinks.
Gigli has a 7% rating at Rotten Tomatoes. Or 3% for the Cream of the Crop.
     
Zimphire
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Jun 26, 2004, 01:55 AM
 
Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
no matter what you think about moore. the attitudes and rhetoric presented by american conservatives and neocons is almost exactly the same as the one OFFICIALLY presented by the nsdap in the early 1930s.

the whole "false attribution" philosophy, the rhetoric of bringing peace through war, the whole reliance on myth and fascist cultural symbols is almost uncanny.

anybody who can deconstruct and read between the lines clearly sees this.

moore simply raises a few questions und points to SEVERAL and very real inconsistencies.
     
goMac
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Jun 26, 2004, 03:19 AM
 
I don't think Moore is completely honest, which most of my friends who are Moore fans admit after BFC. It's pretty easy to find some holes in that.

None the less BFC DID provide some theories into gun violence, and presented it in an entertaining manner. The information that it did give that was faked was not relevant to the main point. The main point was not that whats-his-face-actor ruined everyone's day in Colorado by moving his gun show there. The main point was that gun companies have no real interest in people's safety. You can't really fake the Wal Mart scenes. And you can't fake the theory's about why America has such an attachment to guns because it is just that, a theory.

Although I know Moore adds a certain amount of FUD to his movies I'll still see F9/11. It's called being an intelligent viewer. Even without F9/11 it's not hard to see through Bush, especially these days with the lack of the WMD.
8 Core 2.8 ghz Mac Pro/GF8800/2 23" Cinema Displays, 3.06 ghz Macbook Pro
Once you wanted revolution, now you're the institution, how's it feel to be the man?
     
george68
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2004
Status: Offline
Jun 26, 2004, 03:28 AM
 
See, it's **** like that. You claim it's not hard to see through Bush iwhs his WMD. Do you think that Bush was in Iraq looking for WMD? Did HE provide the reports?> Did HE compile them? No. He waaas provided winth information.... he told the public what he was provided with. I do not see hwot this was his fault.

- ROb
     
 
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