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Adobe starts anti-Apple ad campaign
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imitchellg5
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May 13, 2010, 10:51 AM
 
Wow. This is war. Today, Adobe started a fairly aggressive anti-Apple web campaign. I won't say too much, it's best to read the relevant Engadget article. What I will say is that I think Adobe seems to think that the people of the world are being forced at gunpoint to use an iPhone and OS X.
     
turtle777
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May 13, 2010, 11:07 AM
 
F*ck Adobe.

Since I'm not working in Publishing or Media, I can enjoy an Adobe free life.

-t
     
olePigeon
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May 13, 2010, 11:23 AM
 
Macromedia and then Adobe put Apple on the back burner in terms of performance in Flash for the entire existence of the platform, then they complain that Apple doesn't want them? Macromedia and Adobe collectively had over 20 years to get Flash working properly on the Macintosh platform, and they both completely ignored Apple.

As of Flash 10, it still sucks. Hulu and YouTube peak my CPUs and make the fans on my computer go crazy. This isn't exactly HD content. I'd hate to see what Flash does to an iPhone or iPad.
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analogue SPRINKLES
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May 13, 2010, 11:58 AM
 


On the plus side I made that in CS5.
     
andi*pandi
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May 13, 2010, 12:07 PM
 
I've been noticing a lot of CS5 ads everywhere (even here) saying that you can create animated interactive graphics, without knowing code. What is Flash Catalyst, and does that bypass the Steve's rules?

They're in denial mode.
     
imitchellg5  (op)
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May 13, 2010, 01:17 PM
 
Basically Flash Catalyst is like iMovie is to Flash. It can do a lot of the same things, but without the user ever seeing code. For example, if you want to use a design that you've created in Photoshop into a button, there is a command that will automatically change it into a button by simply selecting what you want that object to be/act as. The quality of the interactive material you create however is pretty limited to what Adobe includes (as far as I can tell).
     
OAW
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May 13, 2010, 03:04 PM
 
Perhaps Adobe should spend more of its time and energy making Flash NOT suck donkey balls on OS X instead of getting into a tit-for-tat debate with Apple. When it comes to OS X everybody who uses the platform knows that Flash is ...

A) Slower than molasses in January.
B) A CPU hog.
C) A battery drain.

Until this situation is corrected I not only have no issue with Apple keeping Flash off of the iPhone OS ... I applaud them for it.

OAW
     
exca1ibur
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May 13, 2010, 03:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Perhaps Adobe should spend more of its time and energy making Flash NOT suck donkey balls on OS X instead of getting into a tit-for-tat debate with Apple. When it comes to OS X everybody who uses the platform knows that Flash is ...

A) Slower than molasses in January.
B) A CPU hog.
C) A battery drain.

Until this situation is corrected I not only have no issue with Apple keeping Flash off of the iPhone OS ... I applaud them for it.

OAW
That's my view to the letter. Even if they break and include it there damn well better be an off switch.
     
SSharon
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May 13, 2010, 04:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by exca1ibur View Post
That's my view to the letter. Even if they break and include it there damn well better be an off switch.
seconded.

And so far we are talking about flash content we want to see. What really drives me nuts are the flash ads I don't want to see that waste my battery.
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pooka
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May 13, 2010, 04:09 PM
 
Full disclosure: I'm a legend when it comes to bitching about Flash on the mac. Been doing in since 2001. That said...

I refuse to go along with the Apple Kissass Brigade* on this. I think Jack Nack (Photoshop project manager) has some solid points. I also agree with those who'd like to see Flash's performance and other issues addressed as well. I'm glad some respected members of the community (and not just the Gruber/Jobs asskisses) are allowed to have a dissenting opinion without the customary "FLASH SUCKS! YOU SUCK!" response.

Adobe needs to try harder. Apple needs to stop being fraidy cat pussies.

My fave quote:
To borrow from the Think Different campaign, "You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify, or vilify them." That's what I ask for Adobe technologies: let them succeed or fail based on their own merits, as determined by customers.
Posted by John Nack at 8:48 AM on May 13, 2010

*No offense to anyone here nor am I implying any of you are payed members of the club.

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pooka
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May 13, 2010, 04:29 PM
 
And for the record - I don't WANT Flash on my iPhone. I want the OPTION to install it and other technologies that have pushed and pulled the web to where it is today. Spare me the "If you don't like the platform/device/company/country, then leave" responses.
/rant

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imitchellg5  (op)
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May 13, 2010, 04:33 PM
 
Here's what I want: Apple needs to man up and put Flash on the iPhone and iPad. BUT, it should ship disabled on each device. If you want to enable it, there should be a pop up that says "Turning Flash on will negatively impact battery life and performance. Continue?"
     
turtle777
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May 13, 2010, 04:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by pooka View Post
And for the record - I don't WANT Flash on my iPhone. I want the OPTION to install it and other technologies that have pushed and pulled the web to where it is today.
Good idea.

I also want a switch in my VW to change to the horsepower and handling of a Porsche.

Damnit, VW, you make both. Shouldn't be that hard.

-t
     
pooka
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May 13, 2010, 04:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
I also want a switch in my VW to change to the horsepower and handling of a Porsche.
Good point. Spot-on analogy. Whooo, I got served.

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turtle777
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May 13, 2010, 04:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by pooka View Post
Good point. Spot-on analogy. Whooo, I got served.
I know, car analogies always FTW.

-t
     
pooka
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May 13, 2010, 04:42 PM
 
I think a better one would have been "I want a switch in my VW that allows me to use non-VW oil"
You could always jailbreak your VW...

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Shaddim
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May 13, 2010, 05:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
As of Flash 10, it still sucks. Hulu and YouTube peak my CPUs and make the fans on my computer go crazy. This isn't exactly HD content. I'd hate to see what Flash does to an iPhone or iPad.
Doesn't do that on my PC, Apple needs to update their GFX drivers every once in a while.
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voodoo
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May 13, 2010, 05:29 PM
 
My disclaimer is that I feel Flash on the Mac is the worst. I don't like it, I don't use it (if at all possible) and I certainly don't see it as technology that deserves living.

That said I still have no sympathy for Adobe's position - if they want Flash based apps in the iTunes store then they have to do something about it. I'm not going to lift my little finger in support of a corporation and its interests while not working for said corporation.

But voodoo, isn't Apple just a corporation protecting its interests so why do you stick up for them? I don't, but I stick up for me. I like the platform - I'd understand anyone defending Adobe iPhone Flash appmaker if they liked it....

Screw Adobe. Companies that live by the crappy product they make die by the crappy product they make. If Apple was making bloated crap as well, I wouldn't have an ounce of sympathy for them either. Finder excluded of course.
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Spheric Harlot
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May 13, 2010, 05:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by pooka View Post
I think a better one would have been "I want a switch in my VW that allows me to use non-VW oil"
You could always jailbreak your VW...
More like "I want VW to ensure that third-party parts made from different materials than the original ones will work fine in my car, and will be distributed and supported by the official dealer network."
     
pooka
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May 13, 2010, 06:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
More like "I want VW to ensure that third-party parts made from different materials than the original ones will work fine in my car, and will be distributed and supported by the official dealer network."
Eh, that is so far removed from any "points" I have been trying to make I'm actually a bit shocked it came from you.

Let's hear what Jonathan "Wolf" Rentzsch thoughts on the matter are again:
...
"I had passion for C4 because I have passion about software engineering," Rentzsch told Ars. "The community's reaction to 3.3.1 has stripped me of the passion necessary to put on C4 again." There were many vocal opponents of the move, including Ars. But according to Rentzsch, the reaction among the Mac faithful was mostly to just accept Apple's decision and, in some cases, even defend it. It was that reaction that "broke" his spirit.
...
I don't think Wolf or I are asking Apple to do jack-shit other than slack off on the control freak front.

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Spheric Harlot
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May 13, 2010, 06:11 PM
 
I wasn't responding to your points; I was seeing how far one could stretch a car analogy to make it fit.

     
Spheric Harlot
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May 13, 2010, 06:16 PM
 
P.S.:

IANAD, but Louis Gerbarg's article on the matter makes a lot of sense to me:

/dev/why!?! - /dev/why!?! - Its all about theframework…
     
pooka
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May 13, 2010, 08:01 PM
 
Thas what I'm talking about. I've read Gerbarg's article and he makes some solid points. He could have nailed it.. but I think he's dancing around a bit in an effort to rationalize/defend Apple's position. But I'm an idiot. Not that Ars or it's author's are any more impartial, but again, good counterpoints aplenty.

A brief assessment of Jobs's iPhone OS defense

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hayesk
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May 13, 2010, 08:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by pooka View Post
And for the record - I don't WANT Flash on my iPhone. I want the OPTION to install it and other technologies that have pushed and pulled the web to where it is today. Spare me the "If you don't like the platform/device/company/country, then leave" responses.
/rant
Apple doesn't want to give you the option - well, it's not you they're worried about. It's the millions of other people who don't understand that it's Flash that is draining their battery and crashing their phone. They just tell their friends "the iPhone is buggy, slow, and has poor battery life."

Just like what happened with MS Word 6 on the Mac, back in the late '90s.
     
chabig
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May 13, 2010, 08:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
Here's what I want: Apple needs to man up and put Flash on the iPhone and iPad.
It's not Apple's job to put Flash on the iPhone and iPad. Adobe would have to write it for those platforms, and even today Flash doesn't run on any mobile platforms! There have been some demos, but nothing shipping yet.
     
pooka
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May 13, 2010, 08:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by hayesk View Post
Apple doesn't want to give you the option - well, it's not you they're worried about. It's the millions of other people who don't understand that it's Flash that is draining their battery and crashing their phone. They just tell their friends "the iPhone is buggy, slow, and has poor battery life."
I understand that argument, but a viable and desirable solution can be found. The same could be said of Netflix, EyeTV or any 3d game currently available in the app store. CPU and battery hogs. There is NO reason that a standalone Flash Player could be exist on the iPhone. A standalone option is available for OS X (and believe it or not, runs incredibly well outside of the browser). Its that simple. SWF instances could be viewed in this sandboxed run-time to allow users access to a wealth of content already available on the web - content that may or may not EVER be migrated or upgraded to "open" standards.

Whatever, I'm really not thinking or making the case for Adobe in this specific matter. I really don't care about Flash on iDevices. It's Apple's behavior, stance and rationalizations that are pissing off some of their most loyal and dedicated developers. Sure, it's easy to say "10 will step up to take their place" but I still say it's a shame. I love my iPhone and I'd hate to see an exodus due to the same arrogance and mistakes that gave rise to Wintel. At least Android doesn't totally suck.

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Phileas
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May 13, 2010, 10:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by pooka View Post
At least Android doesn't totally suck.
Android suck very much, really, mostly due to fragmentation. Android is a good idea in theory, but that's it.
     
Wiskedjak
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May 13, 2010, 10:09 PM
 
I'm not going to defend Adobe. The Adobe ego is huge and will be until a suitable competitor to Photoshop shows up.

But, I also won't fault them for fighting back against Apple. Apple's anti-Adobe campaign has been at least as aggressive as Adobe's campaign.
     
imitchellg5  (op)
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May 14, 2010, 12:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by chabig View Post
It's not Apple's job to put Flash on the iPhone and iPad. Adobe would have to write it for those platforms, and even today Flash doesn't run on any mobile platforms! There have been some demos, but nothing shipping yet.
It's been demoed for Android 2.2 and actually running pretty smoothly on the Nexus One. I'm pretty sure the A4 could handle it.
     
lpkmckenna
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May 14, 2010, 12:26 AM
 
Adobe is getting desperate.
     
pooka
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May 14, 2010, 12:47 AM
 
Apple kisser?

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Wiskedjak
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May 14, 2010, 01:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Adobe is getting desperate.
When Apple's got you in their sights, I'm pretty certain you'd be getting desperate as well.

It's fascinating to me how Steve can direct the ire of Apple fans wherever he wants.
     
Demonhood
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May 14, 2010, 02:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post


On the plus side I made that in CS5.
looks like someone had the same idea: Apple Responds – Jeffrey Zeldman Presents The Daily Report
     
analogue SPRINKLES
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May 14, 2010, 02:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Demonhood View Post
looks like someone had the same idea: Apple Responds – Jeffrey Zeldman Presents The Daily Report
Jerks. At least I put more effort into finding a bigger cube. You'd be surprised on how hard it is to find even on an iPad
     
analogue SPRINKLES
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May 14, 2010, 02:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
When Apple's got you in their sights, I'm pretty certain you'd be getting desperate as well.

It's fascinating to me how Steve can direct the ire of Apple fans wherever he wants.
Actually they are only "desperate" now because they know they are screwed.

People have been complaining about poor flash performance, poorly made CS products since at least 2000. Difference is back then Adobe knew they would hold their monopoly as there was no alternatives.

Now that they are totally caught with their pants down they suddenly "care" and "love apple".

This has nothing to do with steve. Everyone I know in the industry have been bitching about flash/photoshop for 10+ years and this is nothing new.

Adobe already lost. They are taking a last ditch attempt to save flash and are going to work hard for once to get it on Android devices.

In the end it will make little difference though with iPods/iPhone/iPads flying off the shelves.
     
imitchellg5  (op)
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May 14, 2010, 02:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
Everyone I know in the industry have been bitching about flash/photoshop for 10+ years and this is nothing new.
Then why isn't their a new standard? Why does nearly everyone in the industry still use Photoshop or Illustrator or Flash? For all of this hatred of Flash, realize that Flash isn't dead yet, right? HTML5 doesn't work for everything. Silverlight is just as bad as Flash when it comes to performance. Until there is a complete replacement for Flash, that can do everything that Flash can do, it's here to stay. It's still a web standard and will be for some time.
     
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May 14, 2010, 03:12 PM
 
Of course Flash isn't dead yet. But its dying, and will be dead sooner than some people think. There isn't a new standard because no one has taken any initiative to create one. Now that Apple is taking a strong stand against Flash, the user base finally has someone with leverage to get behind.

It doesn't matter how saturated a market is if the technology is not worthy of holding that market. Eventually the bad technology will be weeded out and something better will come along to replace it. This is what is happening now with Flash. It wont happen overnight, and no one has ever claimed it would. But it has to start somewhere and it has started with Apple (who finally has the market share needed) taking a firm stand against it.

Nothing in the tech world lasts forever. Flash will die eventually. Saying that its "here to stay" is pretty much false.
     
nonhuman
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May 14, 2010, 03:38 PM
 
Quake II has been ported to HTML 5. I'm pretty sure it can do everything that Flash can.
     
analogue SPRINKLES
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May 14, 2010, 03:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
Then why isn't their a new standard? Why does nearly everyone in the industry still use Photoshop or Illustrator or Flash? For all of this hatred of Flash, realize that Flash isn't dead yet, right? HTML5 doesn't work for everything.
There is alternatives. Silverlight (equally stupid) SVG, javascript, h264 etc. Problem is nobody was motivated to bother when flash was the laziest/cheapest way to go about it. Now that millions of people are buying flashless iProducts and visiting sites the site publishers quickly figured out that sticking to flash (which they have no real love for) isn't going to help sell something.

The same thing happened with USB and floppies. USB was on the market for years and ignored as serial ports would get the job done with no extra costs. Apple FORCED USB on iMac owners knowing a new market would spring up overnight of companies willing to offer USB products to this new niche. PC's quickly followed.

And yes flash is no dead. Did you know Sony just dis-continued making floppy disks a month ago?

The point is flash is a dying platform that never worked well to begin with. Before Flash was the default delivery medium with jpg's or gifs as backups. From this point on for the most part both will be offered with flash for desktops. Not long after that flash files will be the backup with HTML5 and H264 as the default.

This is Adobe's bread and butter and they see they are about to be shoved out of the market because of their own laziness and shortsightedness over the last 10 years, they deserve it.
     
analogue SPRINKLES
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May 14, 2010, 03:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
Then why isn't their a new standard? Why does nearly everyone in the industry still use Photoshop or Illustrator or Flash?
Things can become a standard and in high use even if it is terrible. Just like Windows and Quark Express.

Actually, Apple went to Adobe many years ago and ask them to write a video editing app for Apple. Adobe said NO and kept collecting cash from its own (hugely dated) premiere and After effects.

Apple then came out with Final Cut Pro and pro consumers ditched crappy adobe for it as it was better for the most part.

Then Apple comes out with Aperture as photoshop is not the best tool for mass photo editing and quick previews. Then suddenly Adobe comes out with lightroom and works it ass off to beat everything aperture can do.

This again proves how lazy they are and only actually put effort into something when they are about to get shoved out by the only competition they didn't see coming.
     
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May 14, 2010, 03:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
Quake II has been ported to HTML 5. I'm pretty sure it can do everything that Flash can.
It can't do some things like fullscreen videos and streaming 2 way communication to the server but unless you need those features it will fill the need better than flash for many other uses.

Plus it will gain those features more and more over time.
     
nonhuman
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May 14, 2010, 03:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
Plus it will gain those features more and more over time.
Exactly. Though honestly I wish people would keep these things out of the browser...
     
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May 14, 2010, 04:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
Exactly. Though honestly I wish people would keep these things out of the browser...
Beats plugins though as the point of them are to "Have your browser do something it can't".

So take your pick on which is worse. Either built in and slightly larger file size or all these proprietary companies fighting to fill the void with their own plugin and worrying about which audience you should cater your site too.

Could you imagine if your phone could only call phone on the same network? Websites should work the same for everyone or at least given alternatives without making the visitor work for it.
     
nonhuman
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May 14, 2010, 04:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
Could you imagine if your phone could only call phone on the same network? Websites should work the same for everyone or at least given alternatives without making the visitor work for it.
Totally agree. The amount of time we waste just to ensure that our sites will work for the people who are still stuck with IE 6 (in other words, everyone in our company who uses Windows ) is tremendous. This is why we need standards. I just hate how the web has become a vehicle for everything. I much native apps that are tailor made for their own purpose (even if they use HTTP as a transport protocol behind the scenes).
     
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May 14, 2010, 07:00 PM
 
Yeah, I think Skype is a good example of how it should be done.
     
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May 14, 2010, 10:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
It can't do some things like fullscreen videos and streaming 2 way communication to the server but unless you need those features it will fill the need better than flash for many other uses.

Plus it will gain those features more and more over time.

YouTube does fullscreen in their HTML 5 beta.

HTML 5 won't do many of the things that Hulu uses Flash for though: buffering, protecting video so that people can't see the source URL, etc.
     
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May 15, 2010, 03:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
Things can become a standard and in high use even if it is terrible. Just like Windows and Quark Express.


Yes, because InDesign isn't bloated, slow and ... well your run of the mill Adobe product. Like Flash. Ah wait.

Like Premiere. After Effects. Photoshop even.

Lightroom seems to be the odd one out, but in general one doesn't need to be Nostradamus to realize what the next Adobe upgrade (heh) will entail.

Bloat.

At least Quark is lean and fast. You can hate it for all I care, but comparing it to Windows or Adobe products. ... well that's over the top. Quark never was that bad.
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May 15, 2010, 05:40 AM
 
Been playing with Photoshop CS5, and I have to say on one hand I really like elements of it. On the other hand I'm not sure why I needed to take a noticeable speed hit simply to use a paint brush tool with a tablet. With CS4 the exact same brush happened in real time on a 2Ghz Core Duo, now CS5 lags. In general the whole app feels more sluggish for no real noticeable reason!

I honestly wonder if this is going to bring about either Apple buying Pixelmator and remaking it into a major photoshop competitor, or bringing out their own skunkworks photoshop competitor. I mean come on they had aperture in the works I'm sure they've got a pretty good Photoshop/Illustrator competitor, heck they could probably pull off one app that would compete with Photoshop, Illustrator and InDesign, the fact that all three apps are separate is kinda silly. I'm sure Apple wouldn't be able to really cut that far into Adobe's profits, but it would send the solid message of shut the hell up and make a good product or we're gonna steam role you.

Fact is Adobe has three major cash cows that I can see, photoshop, flash, and acrobat/pdf. None of which are really that good anymore. I mean people need them, they rely on them, but they have no real competitors to keep those customers.
     
Spheric Harlot
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May 15, 2010, 06:11 AM
 
It's a Cocoa rewrite, isn't it?

It's what everybody wanted: throw out a bloated, buggy but fairly optimized mess of legacy code, and replace it with freshly written, nominally tested, buggy and unoptimized code.

I'm sure they'll have it up to snuff in twenty years, when y'all are clamoring for the next re-write.
     
voodoo
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May 15, 2010, 04:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
It's a Cocoa rewrite, isn't it?
It's an Adobe product. It could be written in assembly and Adobe would make it run slow.

Either way, remembering how iCal started, I think it's only in your mind that people think a Cocoa port makes anything fast by default. However it can make apps 64-bit. That's the point.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
 
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