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Corporal punishment in schools
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Aug 5, 2010, 09:36 PM
 
Found this article and it reminded me of growing up in Louisiana. We were paddled for getting out of line (at least in elementary school, I moved before middle/high school). Looking back, I really do not see it as a problem as long it is justified. I see a lot of kids here in California that could benefit from it. Sadly, here, it seems that if you raise your voice to a child, CPS will come knocking.

Personal experiences and thoughts?
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Aug 6, 2010, 12:13 AM
 
My sole "contribution" is not useful. Serious discussers, skip to the next post.
 
( Last edited by reader50; Aug 6, 2010 at 12:24 AM. )
     
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Aug 6, 2010, 12:49 AM
 
I pretty much agree with everything the Congresswoman in that article said.
     
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Aug 6, 2010, 01:25 AM
 
There's still paddling in US schools?

This map tells me everything I need to know...

     
cjrivera
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Aug 6, 2010, 01:54 AM
 
I was in 3rd grade when the state I lived in gave the parents the option to opt out of paddlings in school. I brought home the form and gave it to my dad. He asked, "What's this?" I told him it was a form so the principal wouldn't spank me. He tore it up, gave it right back to me and said, "Don't get in trouble and you won't get spanked." I was crushed... but I also never got a paddling.
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Aug 6, 2010, 03:29 AM
 
Ugh. Yet another reminder of why Millennials are so whiny and damn near useless.

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Aug 6, 2010, 05:19 AM
 
Best punishment I’ve found is to have the student sit in a corner facing the wall; but not when they ask for it. (to get out of work) One to three times is usually good enough for them to straighten out. Only time I’ve actually had students cry due to something that I did; I don’t yell, but am firm. For whatever reason, sitting in the corner really gets them under your thumb quickly.

However, I do teach k-3, so it might not work as well with older students.
     
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Aug 6, 2010, 07:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
This map tells me everything I need to know...

No, the map doesn't tell you much at all. Some of the "red" states have particularly large student populations (Texas) while others have fairly small populations (Arizona, New Mexico). Instead of the misleading "raw number" of students who had had "at least one swat," the map would have been more honest by indicating the number of students paddled per 10,000 students.

Statistics don't lie, but people who publish them often do.

Originally Posted by cjrivera View Post
I was in 3rd grade when the state I lived in gave the parents the option to opt out of paddlings in school. I brought home the form and gave it to my dad. He asked, "What's this?" I told him it was a form so the principal wouldn't spank me. He tore it up, gave it right back to me and said, "Don't get in trouble and you won't get spanked." I was crushed... but I also never got a paddling.
My parents knew the whole school system administration; all the principles, most of the teachers, they had coffee with the superintendent on a regular basis. I could NOT get in trouble at school without the absolute certainty that anything that happened to me at school would be trivial compared to the results at home.

I got swatted once, in junior high. I had intentionally not done some stupid extra assignment given to me by a substitute teacher who refused to pronounce my name properly. I am NOT "Clem," and I reminded her of this once too often. The assistant principle was almost apologetic, but noted that I had willfully not done an assignment given as a punishment, and I took the (not too bad) swat for it. He did not punish me in any way for the "insubordination" the substitute had also reported me for...

I grew up in Michigan, by the way, long before they completely banned spankings of all kinds.

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Aug 6, 2010, 10:24 AM
 
This reminds me of a story:

Once upon a time there were two brothers, Lenny and Dick. Lenny and Dick were 1st generations Polish-Americans who grew up in Jackson, Michigan.

Lenny grew up and married Peggy. Lenny and Peggy wanted children, but alas it was not to be. Lenny and Peggy decided that they would adopt and found two teenage girls and brought them into their home.

Several years later…

One day Dick was at Lenny and Peggy's house for a cookout and they were all having a good time when the subject of schools came up. Lenny was remarking that the private school which his teenage daughters were attending was a fabulous school and how happy he was they they didn't hesitate to use corporal punishment when the students misbehaved. Dick made a sad face and disagreed. He exclaimed "AIN'T NOBODY BETTER LAY A HAND ON MY GODDAMNED KIDS!" Lenny also made a sad face.

Lenny and Dick never spoke again.

Epilogue:
Some twenty years or so after Lenny and Dick stopped speaking, Dick passed away. As it turns out, three packs a day of cigarettes and four forty-ounce bottles a budweisers a day does NOT do a body good.

Anyway…

When Dick passed away, his daughter came from her home in another state to make funeral arrangements. Her name was Susie. Susie decided that her uncle…Dick's brother Lenny…should know that his brother passed away, so susie made a telephone call to Lenny's home. When she called, Peggy answered the phone. Susie said: "Hi, my name is Susie. My dad is Dick. I wanted to call and let you know that he passed away."

Peggy said: "Oh…well…we don't talk to him."

The End.

(All names except Susie's were not changed to protect anyone, because they are all a bunch of douches. Except Susie. She's cool.)
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The Final Dakar
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Aug 6, 2010, 10:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by pooka View Post
Ugh. Yet another reminder of why Millennials are so whiny and damn near useless.
Yes, its the lack of corporal punishment. Not the fact that their parents likely did no type of disciplining at all, corporal or not.

(Also, enjoying the whining about whiny kids)
     
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Aug 6, 2010, 10:36 AM
 
And the whining about whining about whiny kids.
     
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Aug 6, 2010, 10:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Yes, its the lack of corporal punishment. Not the fact that their parents likely did no type of disciplining at all, corporal or not.

(Also, enjoying the whining about whiny kids)
The underlying philosophy that removed corporal punishment from schools is the same as the one that removed discipline from the home. The idea that bad children just "need love", that somehow these children with their undeveloped brains can be "reasoned with", and that being firm with them and punishing them on a level that they can actually understand is "mean".
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Aug 6, 2010, 10:43 AM
 
Nowadays a teacher can't even give a congratulatory pat on the back. Contact of any kind is prohibited. It's stupid.
     
The Final Dakar
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Aug 6, 2010, 10:46 AM
 
"A level they understand"? Interesting word choice. I'm sure that pain will catch their attention, but how would its reasoning be more discernible for them over other forms of punishment?
     
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Aug 6, 2010, 12:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
The underlying philosophy that removed corporal punishment from schools is the same as the one that removed discipline from the home. The idea that bad children just "need love", that somehow these children with their undeveloped brains can be "reasoned with", and that being firm with them and punishing them on a level that they can actually understand is "mean".
Agreed. It probably started with the parents having no manners, patience, or skills either.
     
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Aug 6, 2010, 12:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Agreed. It probably started with the parents having no manners, patience, or skills either.
Which was most likely the fault of their parents.

Wait, where is this going?
     
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Aug 6, 2010, 12:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
The underlying philosophy that removed corporal punishment from schools is the same as the one that removed discipline from the home. The idea that bad children just "need love", that somehow these children with their undeveloped brains can be "reasoned with", and that being firm with them and punishing them on a level that they can actually understand is "mean".
I'm pretty sure it had more to do with not wanting arbitrary adults in power physically punishing your kids.
     
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Aug 6, 2010, 12:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Yes, its the lack of corporal punishment. Not the fact that their parents likely did no type of disciplining at all, corporal or not.

(Also, enjoying the whining about whiny kids)
Glad to help. I was drunk and tapping with my fat fingers on the iphone. But I didn't state this was the definitive list or primary reason for Millennial suckage. Anecdotal bullshit aside, it's a fact that Generation Y(ine) is damn near useless and widely considered to be the most PUSSIFIED collection of human beings to walk the earth. And yes, it's entirely mom and dad's fault.

Facts

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Aug 6, 2010, 12:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
"A level they understand"? Interesting word choice. I'm sure that pain will catch their attention, but how would its reasoning be more discernible for them over other forms of punishment?
I think that up to a certain age pain instills a fear and respect for authority on a sort of primal level that other forms of punishment don't. I think that it's effectiveness fades as you approach school age and it's of no use by the time they approach the end of elementary school.

To me, it's not so much that it's the best or the only way (like some proponents seem to think). It's that it is a very effective and legitimate method and it's detractors are generally full of shiite.
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Aug 6, 2010, 12:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
"A level they understand"? Interesting word choice. I'm sure that pain will catch their attention, but how would its reasoning be more discernible for them over other forms of punishment?
Fear and pain build character.

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The Final Dakar
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Aug 6, 2010, 01:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by pooka View Post
Glad to help. I was drunk and tapping with my fat fingers on the iphone. But I didn't state this was the definitive list or primary reason for Millennial suckage. Anecdotal bullshit aside, it's a fact that Generation Y(ine) is damn near useless and widely considered to be the most PUSSIFIED collection of human beings to walk the earth. And yes, it's entirely mom and dad's fault.
I think civilization and society should get their fair share of blame. Thanks to evolving morals, norms and technology we've been descending into "pussydom" for centuries (if not millennia). There's simply less need for all the traits we may lament in day-to-day life today as may have been needed say, 50 or 100 years ago.
     
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Aug 6, 2010, 01:03 PM
 
I grew up in a family that believed in spanking in addition to other forms of punishment, such as time out, suspending privileges, etc. And I would not hesitate to use it with my own children. I was spanked countless times by my parents and don't feel bad about any of it. It was all deserved.

However... I also firmly believe that school is NO place for spanking, paddling, whatever you want to call it as a method of punishment. I was paddled twice in elementary school. Both for stupid reasons. I remember them both clearly and still feel the shame and embarrassment every time.

The first was in second grade. We were rehearsing for a Christmas program and four or five of us were goofing around backstage, waiting to go on. What was our crime? Singing alternate lyrics and laughing about it (Turning the line "Have a cup of cheer" from Holly Jolly Christmas to "Have a cup of orange juice"). The fifth grader who was assigned to "keep us in line" went and told the teacher that I started it. My word over his. The teacher singled me out and decided I needed to be paddled. The worst part wasn't the paddling or being singled out among many. It was the fact that my first grade teacher, the one who up to that point was my favorite teacher, was the witness.

The second was in fifth grade. My "crime?" Interrupting the teacher "too much." She decided I needed to be paddled for it. On the way out of the room after the paddling I tripped and fell. The teacher told me to "get up and quit fooling around," and paddled me again. My mother was LIVID. She sent a nasty letter to the school for that one.

In short, any law proposing banning corporal punishment in schools would get my fullest support.
     
The Final Dakar
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Aug 6, 2010, 01:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
I think that up to a certain age pain instills a fear and respect for authority on a sort of primal level that other forms of punishment don't. I think that it's effectiveness fades as you approach school age and it's of no use by the time they approach the end of elementary school.
Fear ≠ understanding. As for respect, that's debatable.


Originally Posted by pooka View Post
Fear and pain build character.
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Aug 6, 2010, 01:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Demonhood View Post
I'm pretty sure it had more to do with not wanting arbitrary adults in power physically punishing your kids.
And why did this sentiment spread like it did?
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Aug 6, 2010, 01:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Fear ≠ understanding. As for respect, that's debatable.
I don't really expect a young child to understand on an intellectual level…do you?

Most kids don't seem to understand shit until about 25-30 years old.
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Aug 6, 2010, 01:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Person Man View Post
I grew up in a family that believed in spanking in addition to other forms of punishment, such as time out, suspending privileges, etc. And I would not hesitate to use it with my own children. I was spanked countless times by my parents and don't feel bad about any of it. It was all deserved.

However... I also firmly believe that school is NO place for spanking, paddling, whatever you want to call it as a method of punishment. I was paddled twice in elementary school. Both for stupid reasons. I remember them both clearly and still feel the shame and embarrassment every time.

The first was in second grade. We were rehearsing for a Christmas program and four or five of us were goofing around backstage, waiting to go on. What was our crime? Singing alternate lyrics and laughing about it (Turning the line "Have a cup of cheer" from Holly Jolly Christmas to "Have a cup of orange juice"). The fifth grader who was assigned to "keep us in line" went and told the teacher that I started it. My word over his. The teacher singled me out and decided I needed to be paddled. The worst part wasn't the paddling or being singled out among many. It was the fact that my first grade teacher, the one who up to that point was my favorite teacher, was the witness.

The second was in fifth grade. My "crime?" Interrupting the teacher "too much." She decided I needed to be paddled for it. On the way out of the room after the paddling I tripped and fell. The teacher told me to "get up and quit fooling around," and paddled me again. My mother was LIVID. She sent a nasty letter to the school for that one.

In short, any law proposing banning corporal punishment in schools would get my fullest support.
Yeah, I support the banning of driving cars because some people cause accidents too.

Your anecdotes are more of an observation of poor school management than an argument against corporal punishment.
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sek929
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Aug 6, 2010, 02:10 PM
 
I think it's pretty obvious that physical punishment could go either way for a child. Some kids would fall in line, while others will simply direct the aggression elsewhere in their lives.

I was slapped once by my father when I was in the middle of a tantrum in the supermarket. I feel what he did was necessary, but that was the only time he raised a hand against me. Resorting to violence at every turn is mentally weak, and will only result in either an incredibly timid, or incredibly aggressive child.

Obviously the mindset that kids should never be disciplined in a physical way isn't right either, sometimes a kid does actually need a slap in the face.
     
The Final Dakar
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Aug 6, 2010, 02:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
I don't really expect a young child to understand on an intellectual level…do you?
So it's not about understanding so much as dominance, right? The kid needs to know who's in charge.
     
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Aug 6, 2010, 02:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
So it's not about understanding so much as dominance, right? The kid needs to know who's in charge.
YES! It's all about being the big man and kickin' some little kid ass! I'm glad you finally get it!

C'mon. Don't be a dick.
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The Final Dakar
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Aug 6, 2010, 02:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
YES! It's all about being the big man and kickin' some little kid ass! I'm glad you finally get it!
Not trying to be a dick. Dead serious. Isn't that a very blunt exposition of the parent/child dynamic?
     
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Aug 8, 2010, 10:21 PM
 
My sister got one of those letters, allowing my nephew to opt out of corporal punishment when he misbehaves. She simply wrote on the back of the note for the teachers and principals to notify her ASAP when they paddle him, so that she can beat him again when he gets home.

The Bottom (heh) Line: Not spanking unruly kids makes you a doormat.
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Aug 9, 2010, 07:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
YES! It's all about being the big man and kickin' some little kid ass! I'm glad you finally get it!

C'mon. Don't be a dick.
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Not trying to be a dick. Dead serious. Isn't that a very blunt exposition of the parent/child dynamic?
The most important job of a parent after providing food and shelter for a child is to provide appropriate and enforced limits upon the child's behavior. Children NEED limits, and their tendency to push against them is an attempt to define those limits. It is often important to reinforce said limits with consequences, and for the more important limits, rather startling consequences are called for. I got spanked for playing with matches-I sure learned that my father was really, really serious about how dumb that was.

But there is a problem: NOBODY ever gets a useful course in being a parent. We tend to either copy or "un-copy" what our parents did. Which means that poor or insufficient parenting gets passed down. I did a paper on obesity in a particular population in South Texas once; I spent weeks with the kids and their parents, trying to find out why it was that 70%+ of 2nd graders in this group were technically obese. It turns out that their parents hadn't the faintest clue how to be parents. And neither did the grandparents. The kids I worked with had two (or more) generations of clueless parenting, which included such things as "let's stay up and watch movies until 1" and "I hate to try to cook so let's all go to McDonalds. Again."

Being a good parent is HARD work. Being competent is a constant challenge, which requires attention to more details than can be enumerated. But the payoff is a competent child who should grow up into a competent adult. But you must have the appropriate example of a strong-enough parent to model, or you just won't have any idea what to do, and you'll fail.

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Aug 9, 2010, 07:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by pooka View Post
Glad to help. I was drunk and tapping with my fat fingers on the iphone. But I didn't state this was the definitive list or primary reason for Millennial suckage. Anecdotal bullshit aside, it's a fact that Generation Y(ine) is damn near useless and widely considered to be the most PUSSIFIED collection of human beings to walk the earth. And yes, it's entirely mom and dad's fault.

Facts
No, it is not a fact! It is a generalization made by certain people who see things that way. Every generation has something bad to say about generations that come after them. It is a fact only in the sense that some media choose to publish it as fact, because it makes for interesting water cooler talk.
     
The Final Dakar
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Aug 9, 2010, 10:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
The most important job of a parent after providing food and shelter for a child is to provide appropriate and enforced limits upon the child's behavior. Children NEED limits, and their tendency to push against them is an attempt to define those limits. It is often important to reinforce said limits with consequences, and for the more important limits, rather startling consequences are called for. I got spanked for playing with matches-I sure learned that my father was really, really serious about how dumb that was.
Aside from some ninnies, no one is going to disagree that children need limits (or guidance). On the flip-side, I don't think any one here also thinks CP is the only way to discipline a child; In my opinion the real debate is when should corporal punishment be used and should it be administered by 3rd parties. In the case of the latter, I find it amusing – with the laundry list of issues people don't trust schools with how could the in-school option be for anyone but the most indifferent parent?

My issue with the discussion so far boils down to the romanticized feelings regarding CP by some, and the unclear explanation of how it "works" by others.


Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
But there is a problem: NOBODY ever gets a useful course in being a parent. We tend to either copy or "un-copy" what our parents did. Which means that poor or insufficient parenting gets passed down. I did a paper on obesity in a particular population in South Texas once; I spent weeks with the kids and their parents, trying to find out why it was that 70%+ of 2nd graders in this group were technically obese. It turns out that their parents hadn't the faintest clue how to be parents. And neither did the grandparents. The kids I worked with had two (or more) generations of clueless parenting, which included such things as "let's stay up and watch movies until 1" and "I hate to try to cook so let's all go to McDonalds. Again."

Being a good parent is HARD work. Being competent is a constant challenge, which requires attention to more details than can be enumerated. But the payoff is a competent child who should grow up into a competent adult. But you must have the appropriate example of a strong-enough parent to model, or you just won't have any idea what to do, and you'll fail.
Blah, blah, blah, parenting is hard. I don't think anyone is going to challenge this.
     
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Aug 9, 2010, 08:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
My issue with the discussion so far boils down to the romanticized feelings regarding CP by some, and the unclear explanation of how it "works" by others.
My post about being paddled was more to point out that "done right," some level of CP is workable-though obviously not as a first step by any means.
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Blah, blah, blah, parenting is hard. I don't think anyone is going to challenge this.
Trying to do something hard with NO model, NO guidance, and basically NO idea what you're doing is a recipe for disaster. Unfortunately for all of us, this disaster is being played out in children's homes all over, all the time. Without some really serious intervention, really bad parenting WILL be a major factor in how our society evolves-and NOT in a good way.
( Last edited by ghporter; Aug 10, 2010 at 07:55 AM. Reason: Fixed the goofed up quote.)

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Aug 9, 2010, 10:23 PM
 
Meet Corporal Punishment


My elementary school used CP when I was there in the 70's. (I don't know if it does today.) CP was used on the boys only.
     
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Aug 9, 2010, 11:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Meet Corporal Punishment


My elementary school used CP when I was there in the 70's. (I don't know if it does today.) CP was used on the boys only.
Interesting. I can't remember if the girls were subjected to CP or not. Though, we did have a female principal. Did you guys have a male or female principal (or whomever did the paddling).
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Aug 10, 2010, 10:17 AM
 
As has been said above, every generation of kids gets sh!t all over by those preceding them.

I was only spanked by a parent once- and I think it was pretty traumatic for both of us- it wasn't a particularly good reason either- I was being a complete jerk to my mother and my father snapped. I think I was about ten. As a parent now, my guess is that my father was facing some other kind of stress that erupted on to me.

I was being an ass and deserved a good telling off or punishment, but I don't think what happened was appropriate. My parents were very anti-hitting- however I grew up to be a productive member of society with a good job and a happy family, and very respectful of my parents (the occasional and a-typical outburst as above aside).

My grandmother, on the other hand, used to hit my brother and I pretty regularly when we got dumped with her on summer vacation. Her weapon of choice was a fresh cut switch that we had to go and cut for ourselves. Hitting was always the first choice of punishment at her house.

From her I learned to hate Florida (where she lived), the south in general, the Baptist church, and my grandmother. Of my four grandparents, she is the only one living and the only one i will not shed a tear for when she goes.

I don't hit my kids and would flip if anyone else did. They are not perfect, but are responsible for their age, play sports, do quite well in school (even with my son's marked leaning difficulties, he is one of the top students in his class and my daughter has been asked to advance a year). I don't really buy that hitting them would make them respect me more or be better people.

Maybe me and my kids (and my brother and his family- equally accomplished) are just smarter and inherently better people than those of you that require hitting to make something of yourselves and your kids, but I don't really think that and I'm guessing you don't either.

I'm not going to condemn those that choose to spank (within the limits of reason), but I do think there are better ways to parent. I do, however, completely reject the idea that spanking is universally beneficial and the only way to raise kids.
     
The Final Dakar
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Aug 10, 2010, 10:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
My post about being paddled was more to point out that "done right," some level of CP is workable-though obviously not as a first step by any means.
Alrght. My first post was to point out I'm not completely opposed to CP, unless we're talking in schools.

Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Trying to do something hard with NO model, NO guidance, and basically NO idea what you're doing is a recipe for disaster.
Alright, it's a vicious circle for the bad parents. What's the solution? I like the idea of a parenting license, however I think putting any limits on something as primal as reproduction is just too complicated of a constraint to consider.

Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Unfortunately for all of us, this disaster is being played out in children's homes all over, all the time. Without some really serious intervention, really bad parenting WILL be a major factor in how our society evolves-and NOT in a good way.
I'm starting to get lost. WHat does this have to do with CP? Because I very much doubt this is the magic cure needed.
     
Chongo
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Aug 10, 2010, 11:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by Rumor View Post
Interesting. I can't remember if the girls were subjected to CP or not. Though, we did have a female principal. Did you guys have a male or female principal (or whomever did the paddling).
At Madison #2 we had a male principal. The teachers did the paddling. One girl did get paddled by mistake. (she had just had her hair cut short, and no, she wasn't butch) She was with some boys that were messing around during the National Anthem prior to a basketball game. We had been warned by the PE coach there would be trouble for anyone one who did not show respect during the Anthem. They all received one swat. He was a ripped a new one once it was discovered that he paddled a girl.

Coach V had a paddle that looked a lot like this one.


If you received a swat from Coach, you had the privilege of signing it. One kid that he could get away with signing it without getting paddled, NOT Coach found out and he earned it.
( Last edited by Chongo; Aug 10, 2010 at 08:24 PM. )
     
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Aug 10, 2010, 12:07 PM
 
I guess it depends on the state. Teachers weren't allowed to paddle students (though they were allowed to rack you on the knuckles with a ruler), only the principal was allowed to.
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Aug 10, 2010, 12:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
And the whining about whining about whiny kids.
That's a paddlin'.


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Chongo
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Aug 10, 2010, 08:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
And the whining about whining about whiny kids.
Whining about paddling is a boot-able offense!
     
   
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