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Looks like Steve spayed their kitties (Page 2)
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Spheric Harlot
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Jun 9, 2010, 05:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
I figure the point of the iPad is about both. It's essentially a regression to what punters need (web, email, bit of word processing), but packaged in a nice new couch-friendly package.
For now.

That's where the mindshare is, and these are the people who will drive the interface revolution through numbers.

Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
So, how do I hook up the 48 channels of 24/96 to said iPadesque thingy? Where do I put the Duende and the PowerCore and the iLok?
Into the box that's sitting under your desk/touch-display console. You'll still be sitting at a "truck", as it were.

As I said above, the revolution is the SOFTWARE, not the hardware.

It's trivial to attach a multi-touch display to existing computing hardware (see Air Display) - but it's pointless until the software has been completely redesigned to work that way.

Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
And how's a touch screen interface going to cope with flitting from Logic to Melodyne to Peak?
*flick*…*flick*…*flick*…

How do today's non-touch screen interfaces cope with flitting from Logic to Melodyne to … what's that third one again?

Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Let's face it, proper towers ain't going to go away any time soon, they ain't going to inhabit "everything over wifi" utopia in short order and touch screen is a long, long way off for anything but the simplest punter tasks.
Give it ten years.

It'll be closer to five, but in ten years, nobody will be able to imagine how this could ever be called into question.

The mouse will be a quaint relic.
     
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Jun 9, 2010, 05:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
How odd.

Even if you ignore RADAR, I'm *quite* certain people have been recording for some decades now.
Yes, but we've learnt new tricks now. Quick swipe comping, Autotune, etc.. Can't go back to "no computer".

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
I'm sure I remember people using faders and buttons and patch cords over six-plus-FEET to do stuff you can currently get to with a flick of the mouse.

In fact, it would seem that you do, too:
As you know, editing is a completely different ball game than mixing.
Big arc of motion for editing = bad.
Big arc of motion for mixing = good.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Bought up by Avid, IIRC. I wouldn't trust that investment.
Yup, Avid.
(since I have no intention of going ITB, there's no danger of me buying one. But had a demo and it's a good interface... ...as far as ITB goes.)

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
As control surfaces and RADAR evidence, removing as much of the computer from the creative process as possible is a GOOD THING.
I agree. But I don't think they're going to replace the capabilities we have at the moment using a key/mouse setup with a better interface any time soon.

Think about it. Key editor - how big is the screen going to have to be to cope with 4-6 bars of notes which are large enough to allow you to see what's happening under your finger (i.e. where you're dragging them to)? And we both know how bad MIDI editing is on a hardware device.

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Spheric Harlot
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Jun 9, 2010, 05:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
how big is the screen going to have to be to cope with 4-6 bars of notes which are large enough to allow you to see what's happening under your finger (i.e. where you're dragging them to)? And we both know how bad MIDI editing is on a hardware device.
Ouch.

No need for the smiley.

That point is *so* conceded.
     
analogue SPRINKLES
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Jun 9, 2010, 05:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Think about it. Key editor - how big is the screen going to have to be to cope with 4-6 bars of notes which are large enough to allow you to see what's happening under your finger (i.e. where you're dragging them to)? And we both know how bad MIDI editing is on a hardware device.

The world will not wait for the 1000 key editors in this world that have special computing needs.

I still know print houses on OS9 as the $100,000 printer they use never got OSX support.

I think the point is over the next 9 years the computer we have today will become the niche in comparison to the tablets and phones that are a niche now.
     
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Jun 9, 2010, 05:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
No need for the smiley.
Nowt intended. I just felt like smiling at ya.
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Doofy
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Jun 9, 2010, 05:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
The world will not wait for the 1000 key editors in this world that have special computing needs.
Dude, it's quite obvious that you don't know what I'm talking about (I don't expect you to - you're a graphics dude, not a music dude).
Almost every musician using a computer has access to a key editor - and most use it regularly. It's your basic working area - similar to how this dialog box I'm typing into right now is the basic working area of this forum.
As such there's millions of people with this need.
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Doofy
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Jun 9, 2010, 06:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
from Logic to Melodyne to … what's that third one again?
Don't tell me you haven't got a decent stereo editor?
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Spheric Harlot
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Jun 9, 2010, 06:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Dude, it's quite obvious that you don't know what I'm talking about (I don't expect you to - you're a graphics dude, not a music dude).
Almost every musician using a computer has access to a key editor - and most use it regularly. It's your basic working area - similar to how this dialog box I'm typing into right now is the basic working area of this forum.
As such there's millions of people with this need.
^ Yerp.

Pretty much every singly person getting into music on a computer - including GarageBand users - will encounter it.

I try to avoid it and just play the damn thing right.

But Doofy will tell me that this is far less efficient than a flick of the mouse.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 9, 2010, 06:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Don't tell me you haven't got a decent stereo editor?
Actually, no - I don't.

I thought that Peak was discontinued about four or five years ago, but I think I mixed that up with Deck.
     
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Jun 9, 2010, 06:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
I try to avoid it and just play the damn thing right.

But Doofy will tell me that this is far less efficient than a flick of the mouse.
Far less efficient for me, since I'm crap on the keys.
You can actually play, so YMMV.

(I take the "play it in properly" approach when I can actually play the instrument - such as guitar and bass. For keys, I play in and have to edit. And let's face it, nobody wants a drummer in the room if there's any kind of editor and a half-decent sample-set available. )
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Jun 9, 2010, 06:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Actually, no - I don't.

I thought that Peak was discontinued about four or five years ago, but I think I mixed that up with Deck.
Yeah, Peak still available (and very nice). I'd forgotten that Deck existed.
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Spheric Harlot
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Jun 9, 2010, 06:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Far less efficient for me, since I'm crap on the keys.
You can actually play, so YMMV.

(I take the "play it in properly" approach when I can actually play the instrument - such as guitar and bass. For keys, I play in and have to edit. And let's face it, nobody wants a drummer in the room if there's any kind of editor and a half-decent sample-set available. )
I can never get edited drums to groove like a Linn.
     
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Jun 10, 2010, 02:10 AM
 
On the day the iPad was released I posted this:

The Big Picture - Erik Veland // words.

I was right.

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Jun 10, 2010, 02:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
They still need to fix the f*cking Finder.

For Pete's sake's, why can't Apple divert their creative genius in that direction for a moment

-t
It's like the Finder has an SEP field around it at Apple HQ. How hard is it to make a good, solid Finder? They did it once.. maybe it was a one time thing?
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Jun 10, 2010, 02:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
So what. Right now I see 90% of people find the file they want in the open/save boxes within the app itself.
Yes, that says more about how much it sucks using the Finder than anything else. People rather use the goddam file-selector than touching the Finder.

The OS 9 Finder didn't suck like that and people *used* it. The file selector isn't all that different between OS X and OS 9.
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Jun 10, 2010, 02:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
I think the point is over the next 9 years the computer we have today will become the niche in comparison to the tablets and phones that are a niche now.
I think you're drastically overestimating the general appeal of the limited computing paradigm represented by the iPad that you've bought into so completely. Regular PCs and regular PC OSs aren't going anywhere. Not in 10 years, not in 20. Not for a very long time if at all, and I frankly doubt the iPlatform model will be the one to replace it. There's a reason why Windows conquered the desktop even though it was vastly inferior to the Mac at least until 1995.

We can pick this thread up in a decade because I imagine we'll all still be around here by then.

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Jun 10, 2010, 02:47 AM
 
I remember when some people on these forums really really knew that metadata would be the end of all file systems. That was back when Spotlight was introduced in 10.4 and what happened?

Nothing, that's what. Metadata didn't revolutionize anything. It's useful, but not revolutionary.

Same with the iOS. Useful (for what it's worth) but not revolutionary. It's a touch based OS. Wow.

Everyone will have one eventually (an iPad like device) but they'll also have a home computer. Simply because it's convenient. More so than a solo iPad.

Immense storage: iPad? No.
Games of all sorts and size: iPad? Nah.
Editing music and movies? iPad? No. (but what about iMovie on iOS? well I'd love to see how many movies you'll bother to edit on a small screen on a device with tiny HD)
Writing: Never. (on a virtual keyboard? in a pinch perhaps, but seriously!)

Etc.

I don't really agree with Steve and his truck analogy. Unless Americans all have many cars, some small and some trucks. But if you have to choose just one car. It'll be something like a laptop (if you need mobility like iPad offers)

There is no revolution here.
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Jun 10, 2010, 03:03 AM
 
Agreed.

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Spheric Harlot
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Jun 10, 2010, 03:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
I think you're drastically overestimating the general appeal of the limited computing paradigm represented by the iPad that you've bought into so completely. Regular PCs and regular PC OSs aren't going anywhere. Not in 10 years, not in 20. Not for a very long time if at all, and I frankly doubt the iPlatform model will be the one to replace it. There's a reason why Windows conquered the desktop even though it was vastly inferior to the Mac at least until 1995.
You're missing the point:

Windows conquered the desktop because it was vastly more operable than the COMMAND LINE that came before it.

iPad won't be the only iOS-style operating system around, and it may not end up the dominant one in ten years.

But mouse-based computing will seem as antiquated ten years from now as command-line computing seemed in 1995.

The predecessors in both cases are/will have been less limited and arguably more powerful, but in ways completely irrelevant to 95% of computer users.

That's my prediction, and I'm sticking with it.
     
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Jun 10, 2010, 03:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
You're missing the point: Windows conquered the desktop because it was vastly more operable than the COMMAND LINE that came before it.
Okay, let's go by that standard then. Are touch interfaces vastly more operable than mouse-based WIMP GUIs? I don't think so. They're superior to the phone interfaces they replaced, but that's about all I can say for now.

I find your vision highly unlikely, but I guess we'll have to wait and see. I think PCs have far greater staying power than you assume. I don't think we'll see the desktop paradigm change in a fundamental way unless and until we get powerful AI and Minority Report type interfaces.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Jun 10, 2010 at 03:55 AM. )

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Jun 10, 2010, 03:52 AM
 
The desktop paradigm won't change for people who need the desktop paradigm. Turns out that is only niche. I am part of that niche, and so are you. That doesn't make it less of a niche. Most people are better served by more focused personal devices.

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Spheric Harlot
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Jun 10, 2010, 03:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
I remember when some people on these forums really really knew that metadata would be the end of all file systems. That was back when Spotlight was introduced in 10.4 and what happened?

Nothing, that's what. Metadata didn't revolutionize anything. It's useful, but not revolutionary.

Same with the iOS. Useful (for what it's worth) but not revolutionary. It's a touch based OS. Wow.
It almost completely removes about four layers of abstraction between the user and the content he's consuming/manipulating.

We, sitting here discussing this, can all deal with this, as we've had to.

But it astounds me every time that people completely fail to see HOW ****ING COMPLEX even the simplest computer interfaces are - "files" (little abstract symbolic representations of the stuff I actually care about) in "folders" (little abstract symbolic representations that work nothing like real folders) in hierarchical structures (which is not how people actually think or work with personal objects), manipulated by a "cursor" (an abstract little collection of pixels that changes its look and functionality, sometimes completely, depending on context) that's moved virtually on screen by analogous movement of a plastic box on the table. "Windows" (WTF is a "window"? This room has two, and I can look through them to see other things), "menus", etc.

This is all second nature to people who grew up with it and learned it out of necessity.

We take it as a given.

Up until about 1993, all Macintosh computers came with a "Macintosh Basics" training floppy that started off with mouse-pointing exercises, moving on to clicking, and then explaining the very basic concept of the desktop metaphor.
(If you still have Classic, you can get it off my iDisk here

We learn all this stuff out of necessity. (And many don't - my dad never got the hang of it, ever.)

But why should we have to?

iPad says we don't.

Apple has removed the lowest underpinnings of computing experience as we know it - the basics so fundamental that you, as a technology nerd, can't even *see* them.

That's a Big Thing™, even if it's utterly incomprehensible to most geeks.

Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Everyone will have one eventually (an iPad like device) but they'll also have a home computer. Simply because it's convenient. More so than a solo iPad.
What could possibly be LESS convenient than that scenario?

I hope you're not talking about desktop computers, because most households no longer buy one of those *already*.

I think you're very confused between "household" needs and YOUR needs.

Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Immense storage: iPad? No.
Games of all sorts and size: iPad? Nah.
Editing music and movies? iPad? No. (but what about iMovie on iOS? well I'd love to see how many movies you'll bother to edit on a small screen on a device with tiny HD)
Writing: Never. (on a virtual keyboard? in a pinch perhaps, but seriously!)
You're missing the forest by focussing on the underbrush - you haven't even seen the trees yet.

64 GB *is* IMMENSE storage for most home users. And even if it's not - add Time Capsule, cloud storage, whatever.

Gaming is already huge on the iPod touch, and the iPad really does make it immersive and much more immediate than, say, a game console. I hadn't played computer games in ten years until I got my iPhone. Regularly, now.

iMovie on iPad will be a lot more fun than iMovie on a computer.

Most people don't spend their day writing. Those that do, have a keyboard.

All these concerns are so trivial.
( Last edited by Spheric Harlot; Jun 10, 2010 at 04:03 AM. )
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 10, 2010, 04:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Okay, let's go by that standard then. Are touch interfaces vastly more operable than mouse-based WIMP GUIs? I don't think so.
Yes, they are.

Absolutely.

See my post above.

(It remains to be seen how well they will scale to the complexity inherently necessary for things like audio production, however.)
     
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Jun 10, 2010, 04:05 AM
 
I'll deconstruct and respond to your explanation in the morning.

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Jun 10, 2010, 06:51 AM
 
Spheric is 100% correct, in my opinion.

Computers are extremely complicated machines. Just because we're all used to that complexity and have it mastered to various degrees doesn't make them any less so.

My mother doesn't even begin to understand how they work, but she gets an iPad. The ipad removes all complexity from the computing experience. It does so, currently, at a cost to geeks but the truth of the matter is that we're a minority.
     
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Jun 10, 2010, 08:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
The ipad removes all complexity from the computing experience.
So did Microsoft Bob.
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Spheric Harlot
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Jun 10, 2010, 09:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
So did Microsoft Bob.
I've never actually used Bob.

But knowing Microsoft's approach to interface complexity (hello paperclip), Bob probably didn't reduce complexity, but merely added ANOTHER layer between the user and what he actually wants to do.

This has the combined effect of both obfuscating the actual workings - the opposite of what it should be doing - AND making the user feel inadequate.

Add to that their propensity for building "cute" stuff that looks like it's geared towards kids except for that it treats users as if they were stupid (which children are anything BUT), and it's not hard to see how it would fail.

Why would I embrace a system built to insult me?

And lest you accuse me of hindsight: who didn't instantly realize this when Clippy first arrived, even if only through a gut dislike of the ****ing thing?
     
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Jun 10, 2010, 09:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
So did Microsoft Bob.
There's a difference between dumbing down and making the complex simple.
     
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Jun 10, 2010, 10:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
There's a difference between dumbing down and making the complex simple.
And which category does the iPad fit into?
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Jun 10, 2010, 10:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
I've never actually used Bob.

But knowing Microsoft's approach to interface complexity (hello paperclip), Bob probably didn't reduce complexity, but merely added ANOTHER layer between the user and what he actually wants to do.

This has the combined effect of both obfuscating the actual workings - the opposite of what it should be doing - AND making the user feel inadequate.

Add to that their propensity for building "cute" stuff that looks like it's geared towards kids except for that it treats users as if they were stupid (which children are anything BUT), and it's not hard to see how it would fail.

Why would I embrace a system built to insult me?

And lest you accuse me of hindsight: who didn't instantly realize this when Clippy first arrived, even if only through a gut dislike of the ****ing thing?
OK then. Let's go with "At Ease" instead of "Bob".

The fact of the matter is that for the averagely versatile computer (as opposed to a dumbed-down consumer appliance), the interface you're looking at right now is as simple as it gets.

You can go simpler if all you want to do is browse the web, read email and watch a downloaded TV ep. But not if you want average versatility.
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Jun 10, 2010, 10:57 AM
 
At Ease is a great analogy, actually!

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Jun 10, 2010, 11:12 AM
 
My brother and I loved At Ease, if only because in version 2.0 and later if you hovered over a button the text-to-speech would announce the name of the application and since this was a very early version of Apple's speech engine (it ran on 68K Macs) the pronunciation was hilarious. It frequently mispronounced the names of many of Apple's products.

I have At Ease 2.0 installed on System 7.1 on a LC 475 with an Apple IIe card installed in it. The text to speech in At Ease pronounces Apple IIe as "Apple EyeEye-eee"
     
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Jun 10, 2010, 01:03 PM
 
You know, I first got interested in computing, programming, etc. by messing around in HyperCard on my parents' computer, when I was 6 or so. My parents didn't know anything about it, I discovered and played with it on my own. If it hadn't been for that, I probably never would have gotten started with it.

If the future is for these consume-only devices to become the family computer, I wonder if there will be any technology enthusiasts in the next generation.

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Jun 10, 2010, 02:00 PM
 
"Completely wrong. Just wait."

I know, I know, "it was probably faked" simply because the screenshot doesn't include headers. Except that it probably wasn't.
     
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Jun 10, 2010, 02:08 PM
 
Pfff, I mean, what's Steve supposed to say ?

Even if he planned to kill the Mac, I doubt he'd let everyone know in advance.

-t
     
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Jun 10, 2010, 02:16 PM
 
So what will Apple have to do to convince people the Mac won't go away? Because at this rate, even if Apple brings back the Get a Mac ads, announces that WWDC next year will focus solely on the Mac in the way that they're focusing solely on the iOS platform, releases new Mac versions of iLife and iWork, people will *still* doubt Apple's commitment to the Mac.
     
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Jun 10, 2010, 02:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by Person Man View Post
So what will Apple have to do to convince people the Mac won't go away?
Aggressive upgrades to their hardware line.
     
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Jun 10, 2010, 02:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Aggressive upgrades to their hardware line.
For some people that *still* won't be enough. What else?
     
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Jun 10, 2010, 02:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Person Man View Post
For some people that *still* won't be enough. What else?
Who cares about your ultra-cynical view of the ultra-cynics. It was a reasonable answer.
     
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Jun 10, 2010, 02:44 PM
 
Why does it seem that this is being framed as an either-or paradigm? Why can't the ipad and touchscreen/interface be viewed as an expansion market rather than a replacement? They are, after all, just tools. You use the right tool for the job, and we all have different jobs to do.
     
Doofy
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Jun 10, 2010, 02:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by imdaf View Post
Why does it seem that this is being framed as an either-or paradigm? Why can't the ipad and touchscreen/interface be viewed as an expansion market rather than a replacement? They are, after all, just tools. You use the right tool for the job, and we all have different jobs to do.
Don't be spreading your common sense around here, n00b!
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turtle777
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Jun 10, 2010, 03:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by imdaf View Post
Why does it seem that this is being framed as an either-or paradigm? Why can't the ipad and touchscreen/interface be viewed as an expansion market rather than a replacement? They are, after all, just tools. You use the right tool for the job, and we all have different jobs to do.
What indication (other than lip service) has Apple recently given to convince ud that this was the case ?

-t
     
imdaf
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Jun 10, 2010, 03:39 PM
 
^I don't see that question as relevant. Unless, of course, you believe marketing hype as factual truth with no hyperbole.
     
turtle777
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Jun 10, 2010, 03:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by imdaf View Post
^I don't see that question as relevant. Unless, of course, you believe marketing hype as factual truth with no hyperbole.
It's absolutely relevant.

The only reason why this question is framed as either-or is because Apple is remarkably absent in the discussion.

If Apple would confirm more development paths for OS X, nobody would wonder about either-or.

-t
     
imdaf
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Jun 10, 2010, 04:33 PM
 
Aside from the finder, there aren't huge problems that Apple feels they need to get ahead of the curve on. Windows 7 is out, so they don't have that pressure. It makes good business sense to throw everything they have at the mobile development right now when they can still become the leader and set industry standards. That opportunity dissipates the longer they wait. Does that mean it's dead? Of course not.

But this is all beside the point. The argument started devolving into a "traditional" vs "mobil" computer interface...with touchscreen technology being the wave of the future on one side and solid conservative skepticism for that stance on the other side. The big point is that the iPad (actually iOS) is revolutionary in the way it expands the market. It isn't a desktop/laptop killer even if Apple discontinues the Mac and Macbook lines. Widows boxes are still going to be there...there will be demand. It's only either / or if you believe the marketing hype that this will change the way everyone interacts with every device (which, of course, is silly and isn't even explicitly stated...just strongly hinted at).

So, the question is irrelevant unless you believe the marketing.
( Last edited by imdaf; Jun 10, 2010 at 04:45 PM. Reason: clarity of thought)
     
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Jun 10, 2010, 08:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Person Man View Post
So what will Apple have to do to convince people the Mac won't go away? Because at this rate, even if Apple brings back the Get a Mac ads, announces that WWDC next year will focus solely on the Mac in the way that they're focusing solely on the iOS platform, releases new Mac versions of iLife and iWork, people will *still* doubt Apple's commitment to the Mac.
If Apple showed a commitment to continuing to market the Mac, showed more interest in the Mac at WWDC (like mentioning it at all in the SJ keynote and including it in the design awards again), and was a little more aggressive with hardware and software updates, that would definitely convince me. Even half of that would be pretty convincing.

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Jun 11, 2010, 02:15 AM
 
10.6 has been out for less than a year. It's too early to hear about 10.7. It's pretty obvious why the iOS focus at WWDC this year. New iPhone, brand new iOS device (iPad).
     
Person Man
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Jun 11, 2010, 01:02 PM
 
So... what do people think of this development?

If Apple scheduled a Mac OS X WWDC for later this year, or did this next year (two WWDCs, one for iOS and one for Mac OS), would this restore some confidence in the continued existence of the Mac?

Yes, I know that it says "could" which means there's a chance they won't, but given this plus SJ's email saying "just wait" makes me more likely to believe that Apple hasn't abandoned the Mac.
     
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Jun 11, 2010, 01:06 PM
 
It's a positive rumor, but I'll believe it when I see it.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
Person Man
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Jun 15, 2010, 08:25 AM
 
Rumors of the Mac's demise... are greatly exaggerated.

Not just a refresh, but a redesign. Just in time to replace my father's lightning-destroyed 2006 Mac mini.
     
 
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