[K++]

Originally posted by Leia Shoots Like a Girl:
<STRONG>

Better question...

WTF is "Live window resiving"?</STRONG>

It's when you resize a window and everything inside resizes with the resizing of the window. Its slower then the other method which is the lines and when you let go it redraws everything.

[Leia Shoots Like a Girl]

Originally posted by K++:
<STRONG>

It's when you resize a window and everything inside resizes with the resizing of the window. Its slower then the other method which is the lines and when you let go it redraws everything.</STRONG>

Zoom, right over your head

[[APi]TheMan]

Originally posted by I Bent My Wookiee:
<STRONG>ARD has a "send File" command, when you send a file that is over 32 characters it kills everything after 32 and turns the last remaining characters into garbage text. </STRONG>

Is this for sending files to other OSX boxes too? Or just to OS9 boxen, which makes sense.

[K++]

Originally posted by Leia Shoots Like a Girl:
<STRONG>

Zoom, right over your head </STRONG>

excuse me for trying to explain something that I thought was common sense, you try explaining common sense, see if you have an easier time at it.

[Targon]

Originally posted by K++:
[Just noticed this]
Mac OS X is the most advanced operating system because of all the new and advanced technologies in it, like Cocoa. I suggest you go back to the Mac OS X page and do ALOT mroe reading.
P.S. THe installer bug is a well known thing, but it in no way hinders functionality nor does it cause any malice so its not very high on the priority list of bugs.

I beg to differ, i have 137meg left on my boot disk, the 2.2meg 10.1.4 update refuses to install because the Installer reports no enuff disk space. So infact, it DOES hinder functionality cos u surely can't tell me this 2.2 meg update needs more than 137meg for installation.

Targon

[I Bent My Wookiee]

Originally posted by K++:
<STRONG>

excuse me for trying to explain something that I thought was common sense, you try explaining common sense, see if you have an easier time at it.</STRONG>

Man you just don't get it do you. I was asking what ""Live window resiVing" is. I know what the hell "live Window resiZing" is.

Oh well, I try.

[ 04-18-2002: Message edited by: I Bent My Wookiee ]

[::maroma::]

PC's are cheaper.

[Targon]

What is a Wookie?

Targon

[kamprath]

Originally posted by Immortal K-Mart Employee:
[QB]

All carbon apps were "converted to carbon". That is what carbonizing your apps means. If not they would be CoCoa apps.

[QB]

Bzzzt!

One can write completely new, MacOS X only applications in Carbon.

Michael

[K++]

Originally posted by Targon:
<STRONG>

I beg to differ, i have 137meg left on my boot disk, the 2.2meg 10.1.4 update refuses to install because the Installer reports no enuff disk space. So infact, it DOES hinder functionality cos u surely can't tell me this 2.2 meg update needs more than 137meg for installation.

Targon</STRONG>

And how much ram do oyu have installed?
you do know that X requires a certain amount of space for swap, plus though the dl is on 2.2MB its a tar.gz also known as a .tgz file, so its alot larger than that 2.2MB OmniWeb for example is a 3.9MB download for a 17MB application. You should think through more about how X works then youll understand why it does certain things.

[Ghoser777]

Originally posted by Targon:
<STRONG>What is a Wookie?

Targon</STRONG>

Well, it's actually Wookiee

F-bacher

[K++]

NO, wookie is right. It is from the simpsons episode in which Ralph Wiggum won th eScience fair with his Mint condition figurines beating both Lisa and the New Smart girl.. So as he is going home he is skipping singing "I beat the smart kids, I beat the smart kids", then he falls down and says "Ow, I Bent My wookie" and there you have it the reference for his name.

[cowerd]

And how much ram do oyu have installed?
you do know that X requires a certain amount of space for swap, plus though the dl is on 2.2MB its a tar.gz also known as a .tgz file, so its alot larger than that 2.2MB OmniWeb for example is a 3.9MB download for a 17MB application. You should think through more about how X works then youll understand why it does certain things.

And you're sure that its not an Installer bug that requires 137 megs of free space for a 2.2 meg update. Given that .tgz or .dmg is compressed, I would guess that over 60:1 compression in this case is not possible, so I'll have whatever you're smoking, cause you're one of the few people who doesn't have a problem with Apple's Installer. People who do have issues with Apple's Installer include the O'Reilly folks, Scott Anguish of Stepwise, and Jordan Hubbard, Apple BSD guru. Its broken and Apple's trying to fix it.

[cpac]

so to sum up:

we all agree Apple has done a lousy job of carbonizing various apps for OS X.

but consider:

would you rather: a) apple had spent the developer hours that have gone into current and future system versions on fixing appleworks? or b) apple focused their efforts on making OS X faster/better? (like the impending 10.2 which is rumored to give carbon apps equal access to all the goodies cocoa apps get for free such as quartz rendering)

Personally, I'll go with b.

[Targon]

Originally posted by K++:
<STRONG>

And how much ram do oyu have installed?
you do know that X requires a certain amount of space for swap, plus though the dl is on 2.2MB its a tar.gz also known as a .tgz file, so its alot larger than that 2.2MB OmniWeb for example is a 3.9MB download for a 17MB application. You should think through more about how X works then youll understand why it does certain things.</STRONG>

K++, hi........ i have 512 meg of ram. I have never read any documentation suggesting that small installers require a significant amount more disk space. Nor have i read anything about a swap. Come to think of it, if this swap plays such a pivitol role in the OS, why are we not offered options to chose the size of the swap and also create a special swap partition at the point of installing/partitioning the OS?

I wish to reject the notion that i was runnin off at the mouth earlier on this issue. If you read a post just after my original complaint, you may have read about the guy reporting that he had 7 gig of space left an the 2.2meg installer told him he doesnt have enuff diskspace. So pls understand, I "Did think" about this issue before I posted. Indeed I pondered the situation of uncompressed installers would ultimately be much larger than the archive and other variables (however i didn't swap into account;ignorance is to blame here. To me the equasion just didnt add up. Even still, you should have been the one thinking about what you typed, as u yourself, included the 4meg omniweb example uncompressed is 17 meg. Surely you could have worked out that a 2.2 meg file aint gonna expand to more than omniwebs 17 meg?? LMAO, 300 is a perverse thought......

cowerd is requesting some of the stuff you are batch smoking :-) btw

Oh yeah....thnx for the Wookiee info......most amusing.

Targon

[ 04-19-2002: Message edited by: Targon ]

[Jonesy]

would you rather: a) apple had spent the developer hours that have gone into current and future system versions on fixing appleworks? or b) apple focused their efforts on making OS X faster/better? (like the impending 10.2 which is rumored to give carbon apps equal access to all the goodies cocoa apps get for free such as quartz rendering)

Apple does not produce AW in house but has a group based elsewhere doing the job. I'm not even sure if they are directly employed by Apple. Getting them to re-write a decent version of AW would not affect the speed of development of OS X.

Maybe they were waiting for the end of the contract with MS so they could produce something that actually competes with Office? Let's hope so. It would be nice to see the application comply with Apple's own rules for user-interface in OS X at least.

[Skywalkers new Hand]

Originally posted by kamprath:
<STRONG>

Bzzzt!

One can write completely new, MacOS X only applications in Carbon.

Michael</STRONG>

Bzzzt!

Kamprath is right.

[edddeduck]

Originally posted by Targon:
<STRONG>Not sure about Apple's installer program (carbon or cocoa) but they can't even get that right. When i installed an OS X updater it was no more than 2 meg, the installer reports that the total disk space required is 150meg. In fact nearly every updater i run it reports 150 meg of disk space required.

Nearly everything about this OS is half baked, i'm finding flaws everywhere i look. I just wonder too often how they can even claim it to be the worlds most advanced OS.....maybe in 5 years time at the rate they are going....who knows.

I think Apple need to fire all the bs'n sales/marketing ppl, an hire some more programmers.

Targon </STRONG>

btw the installer esp for system level installs needs a swap area 150 is a little big (needs improving) but it means you will not run out of HD space halfway through a install.

Edd

[noisefloor]

"then he falls down and says "Ow, I Bent My wookie""

And you can tell the spelling of a word from hearing it...how?

[ChaChi Boy]

Originally posted by noisefloor:
<STRONG>"then he falls down and says "Ow, I Bent My wookie""

And you can tell the spelling of a word from hearing it...how?</STRONG>

Wookiee is spelt with 2 e's. You can look it up on www.starwars.com

[clebin]

Originally posted by omac:
<STRONG>appleworks has a delightful spellcheck bug that crashes 9 BUT in X it just crashes the program- big deal- why couldn't they fix it in X?

appleworks is free , but you get what you pay for.. </STRONG>

Well, you can get it bundled but it's not free. If I'm paying the same money for version 6 as version 4 or 5, I would expect similar quality.

I don't know who the hell is working on AppleWorks these days, but they can't even get a simple update installer working. The International 6.2.2 updater just quits on me with some cryptic crap, whether I try it in OS 9 or OS X. What a joke.

AppleWorks 7 better be a rewrite. And it better have some new features. The standard Cocoa text widget has functionality that AppleWorks doesn't. Again, it's becoming a joke, even for education - and the app has a fine history.

Chris

[mrtew]

Originally posted by Mr Scruff:
<STRONG> The brushed aluminium look is ugly in comparison to OS 9 or X and takes up a stupid amount of room (in Quicktime player anyway) offering no added functionality. </STRONG>

Actually the big brushed frames DO offer added funtionality that I for one appreciate! You can drag the windows around by ANY part of the frame instead of just the top bar. It's similar to the OS9 borders that many people miss and I like having it, if just in a few apps.
Also it's nice to have a different 'look' to different apps. When I have 17 windows open it's nice to be able to see the iTunes one without having to guess which of the pile of identical windows is the one I want.
I think the uniform look to the interface has it's drawbacks. Sometimes I like to switch themes between opening apps so each one is running a different theme and I can tell which program I am in easily or just have a lot of eye candy variety. I'd like to have a way to permanently set themes for apps.

[kennethmac2000]

Originally posted by edddeduck:
<STRONG>


btw the installer esp for system level installs needs a swap area 150 is a little big (needs improving) but it means you will not run out of HD space halfway through a install.

Edd</STRONG>

Yes, however, the Installer demands 100 MB of free space even for application installs on the boot partition. This is clearly a bug.

[K++]

Originally posted by noisefloor:
<STRONG>"then he falls down and says "Ow, I Bent My wookie""

And you can tell the spelling of a word from hearing it...how?</STRONG>

17 years of english coupled with proper pronunciation, yeah I can. If you were ever in a spelling bee you would realise that the rules of pronunciation and spelling go hand in hand.
BTW Ralph still had his action figures on hand when he fell, ive always we was tryin to say he broke his rookie, but it came out as he broke his wookie.

Back to the original point of the thread, About the installer issue. I have seen a 1.4MB tar.gz explode to 65MB of files, that is the beauty of gunzip it has AMAZING compression, now im not saying that the file had that compression ratio, but it is possible. Second there are three levels of compression here, the .pax, the .tar, and the .gz, the .gz ive already discussed, the .tar is not so much compression as it is consolidation, and the .pax is compressed automagically, I really have no idea how that one works.

so the 137MB free case I stand by my reasoning, the 7GB one I lay no claim to, nor was I responding to. Also about teh swap, you are given no control simply because you don't need it, every nix in existence has swap and is this swap that provides us with our superior VM system, you need no control simply because no matter how well you do it the kernel will always do a better job of allocating space and resources then you can. There is also a hack that lets you offload the swap to a dedicated partition if you like.

[ 04-21-2002: Message edited by: K++ ]

[Millennium]

Originally posted by K++:
<STRONG>17 years of english coupled with proper pronunciation, yeah I can. If you were ever in a spelling bee you would realise that the rules of pronunciation and spelling go hand in hand.</STRONG>

As someone who was within one step of the nationals as a mere fifth grader, I believe I have something to say about this.

Number one: "wookiee" is, technically speaking, not an English word. It's the name of an alien race, and while it's probably not in their native tongue (which would most likely sound like "Bwaaaaaw") it's probably in whatever language was BabelFished into English for the movies. So the spelling rules of English to not apply to it.

Number two: what rules of pronunciation and spelling? While they do exist in English, they're so commonly broken that you can't trust your ears to determine the spelling; you can make a guess but there's a good chance you'll be wrong.

Back to the original point of the thread, About the installer issue. I have seen a 1.4MB tar.gz explode to 65MB of files, that is the beauty of gunzip it has AMAZING compression, now im not saying that the file had that compression ratio, but it is possible.

It's possible. Very possible, actually. But it depends on the files you're compressing. I've had a 16 megabyte .sit expand to 200 megabytes. The reason for this was that these files were archives of a Web messageboard, so a very large percentage of all the files was exactly the same. That can compress down real tight.

Second there are three levels of compression here, the .pax, the .tar, and the .gz, the .gz ive already discussed, the .tar is not so much compression as it is consolidation, and the .pax is compressed automagically, I really have no idea how that one works.

Actually, as I understand it, .pax is an archival format similar to .tar. In fact, on NeXTStep, the installer used .tar instead of .pax. But it used BSD's tar rather than GNU's, and this caused a few problems. Apple decided to solve this not by going to GNU's .tar, but by going to .pax. A dumb move, but I'm not the one who made the decision.

so the 137MB free case I stand by my reasoning, the 7GB one I lay no claim to, nor was I responding to. Also about teh swap, you are given no control simply because you don't need it, every nix in existence has swap and is this swap that provides us with our superior VM system, you need no control simply because no matter how well you do it the kernel will always do a better job of allocating space and resources then you can. There is also a hack that lets you offload the swap to a dedicated partition if you like.

Actually, I kind of like putting my swap file onto a dedicated partition, not because of fragmentation or anything, but the peace of mind of knowing that if my main volume gets really low on space, I don't have to worry about another VM file suddenly taking up another 80 megs at the worst possible time (or worse, the OS needing another VM file and there not being enough room for it; this can cause big problems).

[noisefloor]

"17 years of english coupled with proper pronunciation, yeah I can. If you were ever in a spelling bee you would realise that the rules of pronunciation and spelling go hand in hand."

So you can tell that Ralph was pronouncing the incorrectly spelled version of the word? Nice try.

"ive always we was tryin to say he broke his rookie, but it came out as he broke his wookie."

He was carrying STAR WARS figures. Why the heck would he say rookie instead of wookiee?

The word is spelled "wookiee", the fact that it was mentioned on the Simpsons doesn't change that.

[Mr Scruff]

Originally posted by Millennium:
<STRONG>
It's not quite that simple. QuickTime skins work on a per-movie basis, under ordinary circumstances. It is possible to add a skin programatically, and thus make all movies in a given player work with a skin, but this isn't an easy thing.

The biggest problem, though, is adding interactivity to skins. Currently, I know of only one program that can do it: TotallyHip's LiveStage Pro. This thing is really expensive.

If someone were to come up with a cheaper alternative program that could make interactrive skins, of course, then things would be different. But that hasn't happened yet.</STRONG>

Even better, why doesn't someone write a fully aqua compliant quicktime player application with minimal interface and maximum functionality. The quicktime API is open, so there's nothing stopping anyone as far as I know.

Hell, I'd do it myself if I didn't have finals to worry about.

[Targon]

Guy's thats all very well and good, the fact is the installer was a package ".pkg" of 2.2 meg its not a zip, a gzip or any other compressed format. There is no way this file could require 300 meg Open the package contents an tally up the kb's if you have your doubts. The installer is flawed and this has been acknowledged.

Meanwhile your excursions into "WookiEE" land and compression algorithims has unimaginally strayed off into moomoo land. Some info provided here was valuable, but i only wanted to know what a "Wookiee" thing was from the poster who contains this alien doll in his name. **** you guys are amusing sometimes

I'm glad to reside here with some of you super hot literature/grammar stars, often you guys teach us more than we learned in skool...opps correct me here school...ah thats better.

Anyways Millenium, everyone i think here has said more than their 2 cents worth (some more than others), can we close this bar now so everyone can go home?

We ?
Targon

Live window resizing means that a window is not resized using its grid but using the whole window. It refreshes live which is the reason for the speed problems people with slow macs experience so badly.

Steve