Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Software - Troubleshooting and Discussion > macOS > Why didn't Apple make 10.2 a public beta?

Why didn't Apple make 10.2 a public beta?
Thread Tools
goMac
Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Portland, OR
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 11, 2002, 10:55 AM
 
Seems like a perfectly good idea to me. If Apple had made 10.2 a public beta, they wouldn't have to worry about pirating, and they wouldn't have to worry about a NDA for developers. Its not as if the NDA is doing any good right now because it seems as if everyone has it. Apple wouldn't have to advertise it to the mainstream, so no one who didn't know what they were doing would buy it. They could even make money charging $20 a shot like public beta. They'd have a much wider feedback group too. If everyones going to pirate it anyways, why not make some money?

I don't have 10.2, but I've heard 10.2 is pretty stable, and it only has some program incompatibilities. I bet a lot of the developers of OS X programs do not have 10.2 however, and can't fix any problems that arise. This seems stupid to me.

A no, I won't just go pirate 10.2. I'm on 56k, and I would have to have lost my mind. I'm not the kind of person to pirate OS X betas anyways. In fact, I never have.
8 Core 2.8 ghz Mac Pro/GF8800/2 23" Cinema Displays, 3.06 ghz Macbook Pro
Once you wanted revolution, now you're the institution, how's it feel to be the man?
     
kman42
Professional Poster
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: San Francisco
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 11, 2002, 11:00 AM
 
Originally posted by goMac:
<STRONG>Seems like a perfectly good idea to me. If Apple had made 10.2 a public beta, they wouldn't have to worry about pirating, and they wouldn't have to worry about a NDA for developers. Its not as if the NDA is doing any good right now because it seems as if everyone has it. Apple wouldn't have to advertise it to the mainstream, so no one who didn't know what they were doing would buy it. They could even make money charging $20 a shot like public beta. They'd have a much wider feedback group too. If everyones going to pirate it anyways, why not make some money?

I don't have 10.2, but I've heard 10.2 is pretty stable, and it only has some program incompatibilities. I bet a lot of the developers of OS X programs do not have 10.2 however, and can't fix any problems that arise. This seems stupid to me.

A no, I won't just go pirate 10.2. I'm on 56k, and I would have to have lost my mind. I'm not the kind of person to pirate OS X betas anyways. In fact, I never have.</STRONG>

It's clearly not ready for primetime. It's missing most of the features that they previewed. It's pre-alpha. They have a pretty decent release in 10.1. That was not the case when they released the OSX PB.

kman
     
KaptainKaya
Mac Elite
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: somewhere in ohio
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 11, 2002, 11:02 AM
 
Well if they fall behind with the release of Jaguar like they did with 10.0, we might get a public beta.
     
goMac  (op)
Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Portland, OR
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 11, 2002, 11:07 AM
 
Originally posted by kman42:
<STRONG>


It's clearly not ready for primetime. It's missing most of the features that they previewed. It's pre-alpha. They have a pretty decent release in 10.1. That was not the case when they released the OSX PB.

kman</STRONG>
I thought Public beta really wasn't ready for primetime. I introduced it to Mr. Trash Can shortly after I installed it on my machine.

Sounds like everyone here is using it anyways.
8 Core 2.8 ghz Mac Pro/GF8800/2 23" Cinema Displays, 3.06 ghz Macbook Pro
Once you wanted revolution, now you're the institution, how's it feel to be the man?
     
CheesePuff
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Rochester, NY
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 11, 2002, 11:12 AM
 
6C35, which I have, is not ready for public beta testing. It has issues up the wazoo, let alone iChat has tons of features missing, the Finder sometimes just sits there and does nothing, white-outs happen, and a lot of .menu's dont work, etc.
     
Synotic
Mac Elite
Join Date: Oct 2000
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 11, 2002, 12:06 PM
 
Originally posted by goMac:
<STRONG>It's not as if the NDA is doing any good right now because it seems as if everyone has it.</STRONG>
The version that the devs got hasn't been leaked yet. My guess (well it's the majority's guess) is that someone released an earlier build to confuse people.
     
CheesePuff
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Rochester, NY
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 11, 2002, 12:21 PM
 
The version that the devs got hasn't been leaked yet. My guess (well it's the majority's guess) is that someone released an earlier build to confuse people.
I agree. The one I got (6C35) only has a (nice) new Finder, updated dock, iChat (half of the things are not working yet), and a couple of other goodies (Preview 2, etc).

I doubt Apple would have had to seed this to developers because all of the apps I tried work on it, and nothing major is new in this release. I bet 6C37 is what the developers got.
     
philzilla
Occasionally Useful
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Liverpool, UK
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 11, 2002, 12:28 PM
 
Originally posted by CheesePuff:
<STRONG>6C35, which I have, is not ready for public beta testing. It has issues up the wazoo, let alone iChat has tons of features missing, the Finder sometimes just sits there and does nothing, white-outs happen, and a lot of .menu's dont work, etc.</STRONG>
sounds familiar, and i'm using 5Q125...
"Have sharp knives. Be creative. Cook to music" ~ maxelson
     
CheesePuff
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Rochester, NY
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 11, 2002, 12:43 PM
 
sounds familiar, and i'm using 5Q125...


Actually, all apps open fine (and .menu's) here on 10.1.4.
     
nickm
Mac Enthusiast
Join Date: Dec 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 11, 2002, 01:24 PM
 
What does Apple gain from a public beta? The only things suggested are "it doesn't have to worry about pirating" and "it doesn't have to worry about NDAs". These seem to be minor concerns, to me, when compared to the worries they would have if they released a public beta.
  • The beta might have a destructive bug
  • Some big publication might review the beta and say it sucks, or that such-and-such isn't fixed when it will be
  • If users had to pay for the beta, they'd gripe if it wasn't perfect
  • They run the risk that new features would be copied by others sooner than they might otherwise.
  • developers might have users demanding support for their products on the specific beta released, when their time would be better spent debugging the latest developers release.

There may be others. In short, I think that while I think public betas often make sense, doing so for an entire operating system opens a can of worms. The only reason they did it with OSX was they needed to show the world that they weren't staking the company on vaporware. Now that we have 10.1, that problem is greatly reduced. I'd rather they just get the final version to market as soon as possible.
     
SkullMacPN
Mac Enthusiast
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Savannah, GA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 11, 2002, 02:50 PM
 
Originally posted by Synotic:
<STRONG>The version that the devs got hasn't been leaked yet. My guess (well it's the majority's guess) is that someone released an earlier build to confuse people.</STRONG>
I hope you're joking, Syn...

Its quite clear that the CDs issued to devs at WWDC have been leaked. They can be had readily on H******, C*******, and I**. Its also rather obvious from screens posted hours after the keynote, but before the build was leaked, that the Dev's build of Jaguar is not as recent or polished as the one Steve demoed at WWDC. The .dmgs floating around proclaiming to be the WWDC build are indeed in the six disc arrangement Steve described on stage, and their creation dates are the day of or the day after the keynote. The mod date of the files on the .dmgs is around May 1st (some May 2nd, some April 30th), which would have given Apple *just* enough time to press the CDs for WWDC.
     
zazou
Mac Enthusiast
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Montana USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 11, 2002, 02:51 PM
 
This (6C35) is the Developers release.

There is no reason for Apples iApps to be fully functional. Most Devs couldn'y give a rip about them. They want to know and learn the OS nad how any changes are relative to their apps.

Why does Joe Developer care if iChat works? You might, because it is targeted at you. but Joe may be building a 3D rendering environment the mimics sound waveforms. Who cares if Sherlock finds a Map for him.

D E V E L O P E R R E L E A S E

end mini-rant


Haven't you noticed? Chronic cynicism takes no skills, little energy, no education, and if you do it really well in poorly-lit coffee-houses, it gets you laid.
     
reversi
Fresh-Faced Recruit
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: France
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 11, 2002, 04:42 PM
 
Doing a Public Beta is pretty useless.

You can't test some of the new stuff in Jaguar:
Who is using IPv6 here for instance?
How could you test the new things introduced from the FreeBSD 4.4 stuff?
QuickTime6 with MPEG4 support can't be publicly released without breaking the MPLAsomething license.
Etc...
     
KaptainKaya
Mac Elite
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: somewhere in ohio
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 11, 2002, 05:16 PM
 
Originally posted by reversi:
<STRONG>Doing a Public Beta is pretty useless.

You can't test some of the new stuff in Jaguar:
Who is using IPv6 here for instance?
How could you test the new things introduced from the FreeBSD 4.4 stuff?
QuickTime6 with MPEG4 support can't be publicly released without breaking the MPLAsomething license.
Etc...</STRONG>
Plus with the original PB, printer support was broken and people b*tched about that to no end.
     
MacGorilla
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Retired
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 11, 2002, 05:21 PM
 
Oh ya the sh*t was flying here during the public beta! I remember when 10.0 came out you had erase your hard drive before installing it. Can you imagine doing that again with 10.2? No thank you!
Power Macintosh Dual G4
SGI Indigo2 6.5.21f
     
goMac  (op)
Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Portland, OR
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 11, 2002, 05:46 PM
 
But how about developers that didn't go to WWDC? At LEAST apple should offer them a dev preview for $70 or something... Apple could release it to the public, but keep it as a developers release.
8 Core 2.8 ghz Mac Pro/GF8800/2 23" Cinema Displays, 3.06 ghz Macbook Pro
Once you wanted revolution, now you're the institution, how's it feel to be the man?
     
mrl14
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 1999
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 11, 2002, 07:15 PM
 
Do you know why it's not a public beta? Because this release isn't even Alpha. Sheesh all you people are so impatient. September we will see Jaguar and thats that.

BTW, various people have been telling me that there is a major bug in Jaguar in that it corrupts your harddrive. So I guess the folks pirating it and installing it as their main OS get what they deserve.
Get FREE software, legally

http://www.trybeta.com
     
kangoo_boo
Dedicated MacNNer
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Paris, France
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 11, 2002, 07:44 PM
 
Originally posted by Synotic:
<STRONG>The version that the devs got hasn't been leaked yet. My guess (well it's the majority's guess) is that someone released an earlier build to confuse people.</STRONG>
sorry about this :/
lol?
hotline://hl.chatonly.org
mp3://radio.chatonly.org
     
undotwa
Professional Poster
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Sydney, Australia
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 11, 2002, 08:13 PM
 
Originally posted by KaptainKaya:
<STRONG>

Plus with the original PB, printer support was broken and people b*tched about that to no end.</STRONG>
Wrong. I printed to my LaserWriter perfectly.
In vino veritas.
     
Synotic
Mac Elite
Join Date: Oct 2000
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 11, 2002, 10:15 PM
 
Oook.. new idea... the release devs got was not the release Steve previewed, but the leaked versions is the version that the devs got, which is not the release that Steve previewed, that included a working iChat and Sherlock 3.

Good?
     
Detrius
Professional Poster
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Asheville, NC
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 11, 2002, 10:47 PM
 
Originally posted by Synotic:
<STRONG>Oook.. new idea... the release devs got was not the release Steve previewed, but the leaked versions is the version that the devs got, which is not the release that Steve previewed, that included a working iChat and Sherlock 3.

Good? </STRONG>

How do you know that wasn't just a bunch of hacked up images that Steve followed perfectly to make it appear to be a working final product? In many cases, a fake for the stage would be significantly easier to produce than a perfectly working version that's promised to be released in 3 months.

I'm shocked at you people that you expect just because you saw Steve use it that it must therefor be done and ready to go. It was several months after he showed DVD on stage before it made it in ANY kind of workable fashion into the 10.1 developer builds.


Duh.
ACSA 10.4/10.3, ACTC 10.3, ACHDS 10.3
     
KaptainKaya
Mac Elite
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: somewhere in ohio
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 11, 2002, 10:47 PM
 
Originally posted by undotwa:
<STRONG>

Wrong. I printed to my LaserWriter perfectly.</STRONG>
Explain. I have an Epson 740i USB that would not print unless i started back into 9.
     
Northform
Mac Enthusiast
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Boston/Cambridge
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 12, 2002, 11:07 AM
 
There are many reasons why Apple hasn't offered 6C35 to the public.

It is in its pre-alpha stage according to Jobs. They don't want negitive press over problems with it. It isn't a beta (which negates the name public beta). If they charges $20 and didn't give you $20 off someway all hell would break loose (remember those who bought the PB yelling that they were going to have to pay full price. Apple gave them $20 off. Whether it was market pressure or their original plan no one knows). If it is a free upgrade, which everyone is hoping for, they won't be able to give them the $20 off.

I know someone will say that info is everywhere about it. But as it is an NDA software program if any info is correct about the developer preview and isn't in the final it is OK. Apple can always deny reports that come from NDA DPs and a lot of the info out there can be conflicting since people who don't have it want people to think they have it (and people who are die-hard Apple fans tring to encourage Apple purchases from others or people who don't like Apple tring to spread FUD about the upcomming release). Check out htese forums. There are some people saying that everything is lightning fast, even more so than 9 while others say that it is slower than the current release. Most importantly Apple can't be sued over anything this way (if they don't include a feature - other than what they've announced publicly - that encouraged someone to buy a machine).

This provides Apple with a lot more freedom rather than having to deal with fixing problems for people that shouldn't have the release, listning to the same sugestion over and over again, etc. I think I've covered everything I wanted to here (with much repitition).
     
goMac  (op)
Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Portland, OR
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 12, 2002, 12:19 PM
 
If my memory serve me correctly (and if it doesn't, feel free to correct me)...

Microsoft released 3 developers betas of Windoze XP to the public. There was no conference to go to, all you had to do was pay something like $30 (I think) and they would send you the beta. They did this ever since XP was announced. These builds were probably not ready for primetime (not that Windoze is ever really ready for primetime), yet no one from the media really reviewed it (Time at one point did review it against X final), and developers go the chance to update. Why can't Apple do this?
8 Core 2.8 ghz Mac Pro/GF8800/2 23" Cinema Displays, 3.06 ghz Macbook Pro
Once you wanted revolution, now you're the institution, how's it feel to be the man?
     
kmkkid
Professional Poster
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Brantford, ON. Canada
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 12, 2002, 12:38 PM
 
MS released RC's (Release Candidates) to the public for testing, you didnt have to be a developer at all, in fact I took up the offer and tested them, you had a 180 day trial of both RC1 ad RC2 when they were available, it was $30 for this offer. Some people in england got a 180 day trial of the Gold build simply because MS screwed up and was very late sending them any RC's. And these builds were scrutinized very much by the press and public, though they couldnt complain too much as these builds were mainly 2k with a preschoolish gui and some new media features.
XP was rushed into release, so I figure if it had of been released 3rd quarter of this year, when expected, it would have been alot better then it was, but it is still relativly bug free (very few major bugs) despite it being released very premature. Longhorn and Blackcomb promise to be something to watch out for

Chris
     
Todd Madson
Mac Elite
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Minneapolis, MN USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 12, 2002, 12:47 PM
 
Those release candidates microsoft sent out were much more ready to go than this Jaguar
appears to be however. If it's pre-alpha, then God help you.

If you just have to get the damn thing and try it out find a blank 10 gig drive and format it
and put it on there, try it out and be done with it.

It's still going to be a dissappointment if you do it because even if it's the fastest build the
world has ever seen, what good is it if your apps don't work?
     
   
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:39 AM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,