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Thunderbird · Jul 17, 2002, 12:25 PM

So this morning I went to the Apple discussion boards at <a href="http://discussions.info.apple.com/" target="_blank">http://discussions.info.apple.com/</a> and I posted a very well thought out letter to Apple about the stupid move they are making by charging for e-mail. I was not alone. In 15 minutes, there were 15 other posts in the appropriate forum, and they all criticized Apple for charging for e-mail, and begged for the return of a free, basic, e-mail account.

Guess what? APPLE DELETED ALL OF THE POSTS!!! One by one, they disappeared. Apple doesn't want to be criticized publically. They censored every post that expressed frustration with Apple.

ringo · Jul 17, 2002, 01:20 PM

<img src="http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/09/01/steve.jobs.bio.idg/story.jobs.jpg" alt=" - " />

"Now, now Thunderbird, you must be mistaken. All of our customers love the idea of paying Apple $100.00 a year. Just go to our messageboards to see for yourself. Here, why don't you try on one of our new iMasks, now just breathe deeply and repeat your credit card number out loud until everything feels all right again."

[ 07-17-2002, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: ringo ]

M�lum · Jul 17, 2002, 01:20 PM

Did you post BEFORE or WHILE Steve spoke? If so Apple was right in cancelling not disclosed info on their message boards.

If you posted AFTER, then Apple is protecting themselves from bad publicity on their own sites. Which is poor, but I would do the same as a company I think as not doing could harm the company more (just think of the Mac haters picking this up)

Thunderbird · Jul 17, 2002, 01:32 PM

Ringo, that was a great impersonation!! I can't stop laughing!!

And the posts were all made AFTER the speech. If you go to the Apple discussion boards right now, you will see a steady stream of new posts coming in to the .Mac General topic. Read them quickly, because they are being deleted as fast as they are being posted.

Thunderbird · Jul 17, 2002, 01:38 PM

Somebody has already started a petition against the new charges...

<a href="http://www.PetitionOnline.com/iTol/petition.html" target="_blank">http://www.PetitionOnline.com/iTol/petition.html</a>

Thunderbird · Jul 17, 2002, 06:02 PM

I just checked in on that petition, and it already has over 2200 signatures!

thunderous_funker · Jul 17, 2002, 06:10 PM

should cross reference those petitioners with the names of people that don't pay for shareware and have illegal mp3's.....

Don't want to pay for .Mac email address? Then don't. The User License clearly stated that Apple could start charging for iTools anytime they wanted when you installed it.

I remember all this same wimpering and snivelling when free tech support went away.

Apple's a business. You can buy their services or not. It's a free country.

Thunderbird · Jul 17, 2002, 06:18 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
should cross reference those petitioners with the names of people that don't pay for shareware and have illegal mp3's.....

Don't want to pay for .Mac email address? Then don't. The User License clearly stated that Apple could start charging for iTools anytime they wanted when you installed it.

I remember all this same wimpering and snivelling when free tech support went away.

Apple's a business. You can buy their services or not. It's a free country.<hr /></blockquote>Hey, guess what? I still get free tech support on my Quadra 840av and my Quadra 630CD. Know why? Because when I bought them, Apple advertised them as including free tech support for life. It was one of the reasons why I bought a Mac (and why I paid more than a comparably equipped PC). Well, when they suddenly changed their tune, they got sued, and they lost. It was called "false advertising." Free tech support returned, and I can still call them on the 800 number and get free tech support for my 8 year old Quadra, until it dies. If they didn't want to provide it, they never should've advertised it as free for life.

theolein · Jul 17, 2002, 06:46 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by M�lum:
Did you post BEFORE or WHILE Steve spoke? If so Apple was right in cancelling not disclosed info on their message boards.

If you posted AFTER, then Apple is protecting themselves from bad publicity on their own sites. Which is poor, but I would do the same as a company I think as not doing could harm the company more (just think of the Mac haters picking this up)<hr /></blockquote>Jesus, raggaz. I didn't think that you would stoop this low. Do you work for them or something?

sek929 · Jul 17, 2002, 06:54 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Thunderbird:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
should cross reference those petitioners with the names of people that don't pay for shareware and have illegal mp3's.....

Don't want to pay for .Mac email address? Then don't. The User License clearly stated that Apple could start charging for iTools anytime they wanted when you installed it.

I remember all this same wimpering and snivelling when free tech support went away.

Apple's a business. You can buy their services or not. It's a free country.<hr /></blockquote>Hey, guess what? I still get free tech support on my Quadra 840av and my Quadra 630CD. Know why? Because when I bought them, Apple advertised them as including free tech support for life. It was one of the reasons why I bought a Mac (and why I paid more than a comparably equipped PC). Well, when they suddenly changed their tune, they got sued, and they lost. It was called "false advertising." Free tech support returned, and I can still call them on the 800 number and get free tech support for my 8 year old Quadra, until it dies. If they didn't want to provide it, they never should've advertised it as free for life.<hr /></blockquote>EXACTLY It wasn't "free until we get more greedy"

CaseCom · Jul 17, 2002, 08:01 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Thunderbird:
So this morning I went to the Apple discussion boards at <a href="http://discussions.info.apple.com/" target="_blank">http://discussions.info.apple.com/</a> and I posted a very well thought out letter to Apple about the stupid move they are making by charging for e-mail. I was not alone. In 15 minutes, there were 15 other posts in the appropriate forum, and they all criticized Apple for charging for e-mail, and begged for the return of a free, basic, e-mail account.

Guess what? APPLE DELETED ALL OF THE POSTS!!! One by one, they disappeared. Apple doesn't want to be criticized publically. They censored every post that expressed frustration with Apple.<hr /></blockquote>Apple Discussions is a tech-support forum. The people who run it are in Texas, not Cupertino. Posts like yours have always been deleted, no matter how "well thought out."

<blockquote>quote:<hr />This area is intended to address technical issues. Discussions of Apple policies and procedures, speculation on Apple decisions, questions about products that have not been released, and issues with repair procedures are not appropriate. Discussion posts that are not directly related to a technical support issue, are only complaints, or contain abusive language are not appropriate. Posts that are not appropriate will be removed from the discussion forum.<hr /></blockquote>This is what you want:
<a href="http://www.apple.com/feedback/mac/gtm.html" target="_blank">http://www.apple.com/feedback/mac/gtm.html</a>

[ 07-17-2002, 08:04 PM: Message edited by: CaseCom ]

thunderous_funker · Jul 17, 2002, 08:03 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by sek929:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Thunderbird:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
should cross reference those petitioners with the names of people that don't pay for shareware and have illegal mp3's.....

Don't want to pay for .Mac email address? Then don't. The User License clearly stated that Apple could start charging for iTools anytime they wanted when you installed it.

I remember all this same wimpering and snivelling when free tech support went away.

Apple's a business. You can buy their services or not. It's a free country.<hr /></blockquote>Hey, guess what? I still get free tech support on my Quadra 840av and my Quadra 630CD. Know why? Because when I bought them, Apple advertised them as including free tech support for life. It was one of the reasons why I bought a Mac (and why I paid more than a comparably equipped PC). Well, when they suddenly changed their tune, they got sued, and they lost. It was called "false advertising." Free tech support returned, and I can still call them on the 800 number and get free tech support for my 8 year old Quadra, until it dies. If they didn't want to provide it, they never should've advertised it as free for life.<hr /></blockquote>EXACTLY It wasn't "free until we get more greedy"<hr /></blockquote>Are you trying to claim that iTools was "free for life" ?

You obviously didn't bother to read the License Agreement when you installed it that clearly stated the truth that Apple would charge for it whenever they felt like it. You agreed to it by clicking OK and continuing to use it.

I won't be paying for .Mac services. They don't really appeal to me personally. But are you really going to crucify yourselves because Apple hasn't been able to afford the same free services that are very very quickly dissappearing everywhere on the web? Come on.

Remember those NetZero ads with the McCarthy Trail Mock-up and spouting dogma about "internet should be free forver is a basic human right"........

[ 07-17-2002, 08:04 PM: Message edited by: thunderous_funker ]

daimoni · 02:07 PM

.

theolein · Jul 17, 2002, 08:14 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by daimoni:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
Are you trying to claim that iTools was "free for life" ?<hr /></blockquote>No. Steve Jobs did during a previous keynote. He can go crucify himself.<hr /></blockquote>If Apple's stock continues to plunge, Old Steve is going to have to do some really quick thinking. That quick thinking will turn frantic if someone starts a class action suite for SJ's promise at MWSF 2000 for "free forever" mail/iTools etc however ridiculous it might sound.

thunderous_funker · Jul 17, 2002, 08:42 PM

It doesn't matter what BS Jobs might have spouted at any event at any time. The User License you signed when you installed the software clearly indicated the opposite.

I'm not trying to convince you to pay for .Mac. I'm not trying to convince you it's worth it. I'm not even trying to convince you that it's a great idea. I'm simply pointing out the ugly truth of what was very very clear to anyone who bothered to notice about iTools ALL ALONG.

Apple cannot afford free iTools any longer. If they could, i'm pretty sure they would avoid the PR problems and continue.

Instead, they are a business facing almost overwhelming competition in a makret segment that some have pronounced dead during a recession.

What is good for the User is NOT always good for the company. If that were the case, everything would be free including hardware. Do you even realize how many iTools users were using their 'free' service to run a business? Lots. Lots and Lots. How fair is that? No company I know of offers free web services for businesses. In fact, it violates the Terms of Service for most ISP's to run a business on your free webspace. Get a grip.

Historically Apple has nearly killed itself time and time again by bending over backwards for it's customers at the expense of it's business. They stayed backward compatible far too long. They didn't force users to upgrade. They gave stuff away. Don't any of you remember the abomination that was System 7-8? Mac users keep their computers FAR longer than anyone in the industry. They don't upgrade. They don't innovate. And yet they expect Apple to compete with Mercenary compaines like MS and Dell and to constantly have the "newest, coolest".

Wake up. Let Apple run itself like a business so it can actually compete and have a chance.

IUJHJSDHE · Jul 17, 2002, 08:44 PM

Why does apple never listen to us, WHAT DO THEY THINK WERE ALL WRONG!??!?!

And Steve won't take it back, it would be admiting he made a mistake

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by theolein:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by daimoni:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
Are you trying to claim that iTools was "free for life" ?<hr /></blockquote>No. Steve Jobs did during a previous keynote. He can go crucify himself.<hr /></blockquote>If Apple's stock continues to plunge, Old Steve is going to have to do some really quick thinking. That quick thinking will turn frantic if someone starts a class action suite for SJ's promise at MWSF 2000 for "free forever" mail/iTools etc however ridiculous it might sound.<hr /></blockquote>They will probably just say that this is not iTools it's .mac

Infact they probably changed the name to be free of that very possablity

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
It doesn't matter what BS Jobs might have spouted at any event at any time. The User License you signed when you installed the software clearly indicated the opposite.

I'm not trying to convince you to pay for .Mac. I'm not trying to convince you it's worth it. I'm not even trying to convince you that it's a great idea. I'm simply pointing out the ugly truth of what was very very clear to anyone who bothered to notice about iTools ALL ALONG.

Apple cannot afford free iTools any longer. If they could, i'm pretty sure they would avoid the PR problems and continue.

Instead, they are a business facing almost overwhelming competition in a makret segment that some have pronounced dead during a recession.

What is good for the User is NOT always good for the company. If that were the case, everything would be free including hardware. Do you even realize how many iTools users were using their 'free' service to run a business? Lots. Lots and Lots. How fair is that? No company I know of offers free web services for businesses. In fact, it violates the Terms of Service for most ISP's to run a business on your free webspace. Get a grip.

Historically Apple has nearly killed itself time and time again by bending over backwards for it's customers at the expense of it's business. They stayed backward compatible far too long. They didn't force users to upgrade. They gave stuff away. Don't any of you remember the abomination that was System 7-8? Mac users keep their computers FAR longer than anyone in the industry. They don't upgrade. They don't innovate. And yet they expect Apple to compete with Mercenary compaines like MS and Dell and to constantly have the "newest, coolest".

Wake up. Let Apple run itself like a business so it can actually compete and have a chance.<hr /></blockquote>I am fine with that but they OVERPRICED it!

If it was about 80% cheaper I would be willing to pay and could sympthise with them.

But 100$ a year!

Thats about 200 a year here in australia.

That IS just to much!

[ 07-17-2002, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: IUJHJSDHE ]

Captain Big Trousers · Jul 17, 2002, 09:10 PM

Yo! Raise yo hands all da Apple Employees in da house!

Thunderbird · Jul 17, 2002, 09:42 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by CaseCom:
Apple Discussions is a tech-support forum. The people who run it are in Texas, not Cupertino. Posts like yours have always been deleted, no matter how "well thought out."
<hr /></blockquote>Well, when you log in, it says nothing about it being a tech support forum. It says it is a discussion board. The first page says...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Welcome to Discussions
You'll find a community of experienced computer users who actively participate in these discussions and are ready to help. Please post your questions and comments regarding Apple products here after logging in. <hr /></blockquote>A board for "Questions and comments regarding Apple products..." Hmmm, sounds to me like an appropriate place to comment on Apple products, right?

daimoni · 02:07 PM

.

vsurfer · Jul 17, 2002, 10:36 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by IUJHJSDHE:
Why does apple never listen to us, WHAT DO THEY THINK WERE ALL WRONG!??!?!

And Steve won't take it back, it would be admiting he made a mistake

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by theolein:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by daimoni:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
Are you trying to claim that iTools was "free for life" ?<hr /></blockquote>No. Steve Jobs did during a previous keynote. He can go crucify himself.<hr /></blockquote>If Apple's stock continues to plunge, Old Steve is going to have to do some really quick thinking. That quick thinking will turn frantic if someone starts a class action suite for SJ's promise at MWSF 2000 for "free forever" mail/iTools etc however ridiculous it might sound.<hr /></blockquote>They will probably just say that this is not iTools it's .mac

Infact they probably changed the name to be free of that very possablity

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
It doesn't matter what BS Jobs might have spouted at any event at any time. The User License you signed when you installed the software clearly indicated the opposite.

I'm not trying to convince you to pay for .Mac. I'm not trying to convince you it's worth it. I'm not even trying to convince you that it's a great idea. I'm simply pointing out the ugly truth of what was very very clear to anyone who bothered to notice about iTools ALL ALONG.

Apple cannot afford free iTools any longer. If they could, i'm pretty sure they would avoid the PR problems and continue....bending over backwards for it's customers at the expense of it's business. They stayed backward compatible far too long. They didn't force users to upgrade. .. And yet they expect Apple to compete with Mercenary compaines like MS and Dell and to constantly have the "newest, coolest".

Wake up. Let Apple run itself like a business so it can actually compete and have a chance.<hr /></blockquote>I am fine with that but they OVERPRICED it!

If it was about 80% cheaper I would be willing to pay and could sympthise with them.

But 100$ a year!

Thats about 200 a year here in australia.

That IS just to much!<hr /></blockquote>Yes, that price surprised me too. They might not be meeting their financial expectations, and for sure they need to run a business and compete, or better still thrive, but a $100 as a starting point is large. That's equivalent to more than an American Express card membership or AAA protection. OR the upgrade in cable TV service I was thinking about (until Pat Quinn of the Maple Leafs mentioned smth about a lockout!)

I just nixed on paying Yahoo the 25 or so to keep POP access. I also ditched the last $10/month vestige of an old AOL address. My Hotmail address went by the wayside long ago, and my mac.com address may soon follow. I certainly am not going to pay $100/yr for .mac. Itools was slow as for me anyway even with a cable modem and I couldn't use iTools during the day on a corporate daytime mac anyway.

I'll exercise my prerogative and consider gradually deprecating my mac.com address & redirect more mail to my own domain's email utility--which at this point is suddenly starting to seem like better value for money. If I made plenty of lucre it might not bother me quite as much, but as it is, the number of monthly bills one accumulates in day to day modern living is already beyond the pale. I'd prefer to simplify and trim, not add expenses and complicate.

CaseCom · Jul 17, 2002, 11:33 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Thunderbird:
A board for "Questions and comments regarding Apple products..." Hmmm, sounds to me like an appropriate place to comment on Apple products, right?<hr /></blockquote>I know they don't shove a user agreement in front of your face when you log in and make you click "Accept." My point is, by bitching at Apple Discussions you accomplish nothing. It's like complaining to the busboy about the food. Use the feedback form instead.

[ 07-17-2002, 11:35 PM: Message edited by: CaseCom ]

thunderous_funker · Jul 18, 2002, 11:34 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by daimoni:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Captain Big Trousers:
Yo! Raise yo hands all da Apple Employees in da house!<hr /></blockquote>I ain't sayin' nuthin'<hr /></blockquote>You must not pay attention to my posts. I don't even own a Mac right now. Sold my 6100 PowerMac with Dos Card years back and went x86. I just couldn't stomach OS 6-8 <shudder>.

I stayed a fan but haven't felt compelled to spend the extra $$ for a Mac until recently. OS X is the shiznibit. I suspect it won't be long before i'm shellig out the cash for one of these babies. Gotsta get X.

So why am I acting like an Apple employee? Because i'm sick and tired of Apple being blasted for not innovating and keeping up with MS and Dell while at the same time being blasted everytime they make a move like this which is necessary to keep them competitive. Can't have it both ways.

Besides, maybe getting good revenue streams from iPod for Windows, QT, .Mac and every other sideline venture might actually make the margins on those lovely machines come down into my price range a little quicker.

mac freak · Jul 18, 2002, 12:23 PM

I just signed that petition...
About 9,700 sigs right now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

sdahl · Jul 18, 2002, 01:44 PM

Quite officially they don't care:
Schiller, in an interview with ZDnet, stated that he hopes to have about 10% of current mac.com users convert - so there you are.

Well done really

graffix · Jul 18, 2002, 02:13 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />So why am I acting like an Apple employee? Because i'm sick and tired of Apple being blasted for not innovating and keeping up with MS and Dell while at the same time being blasted everytime they make a move like this which is necessary to keep them competitive. <hr /></blockquote>Well, judging by their stock prices, most of their investors don't see this as a 'competitive' move. In fact, they just removed a service that actually compelled people to buy Macs. Cutting off your nose because you can make money off it sure won't make your face very happy...
Also, I don't see Yahoo and Hotmail selling premium-priced computers. I didn't just shell out almost $3,000 dollars to Microsoft or Yahoo, Inc. for a computer that included this service. Also, Steve lied about Hotmail and Yahoo Mail... they both still include 'freebie' options (though not optimal), while Apple is not offering any sort of 'free' limited account. This is just a bad move all around, in my opinion... this is so beyond 'competitive' as to almost be extortion. The overriding theme is 'Pay... or else we take away'... not a very good thing to do to your customers.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Besides, maybe getting good revenue streams from iPod for Windows, QT, .Mac and every other sideline venture might actually make the margins on those lovely machines come down into my price range a little quicker. <hr /></blockquote>I almost blew my coffee out my nose when I read this...
Macs will probably never get below the price point you see right now. The only way you'll get a Mac cheaper is to either get a refurb, or to buy one on ebay...
You'll notice that prices go 'up' before they come back down, and they never seem to get less expensive than the previous generation of Macs (though they include more features for what you pay).
One thing I've found is that people all have differing opinions, and calling people 'whiners' and 'crybabies' because they're unhappy with a decision only shows the maturity level of the person making the comment (this is directed at everyone, not just you).
iTools has ALWAYS been sold as an integrated part of the OS. Otherwise why would you have a Finder menubar option to mount your iDisk? Why would iPhoto have an integrated publishing capabilities for your iTools website? Why did Steve Jobs alleviate people's fears by saying they could use their iDisk for file transfer instead of the floppy drive they were eliminating from all machines? I think we all know the answer...
It was part of the reason why I chose a Mac over a comparably equipped PC, and one of the benefits I touted about being a Mac user...
Well, at least they gave us a 60 day eviction notice...
cheers.
g.

[ 07-18-2002, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: graffix ]

thunderous_funker · Jul 18, 2002, 03:52 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by graffix:
 I almost blew my coffee out my nose when I read this...
Macs will probably never get below the price point you see right now. The only way you'll get a Mac cheaper is to either get a refurb, or to buy one on ebay...
You'll notice that prices go 'up' before they come back down, and they never seem to get less expensive than the previous generation of Macs (though they include more features for what you pay).
One thing I've found is that people all have differing opinions, and calling people 'whiners' and 'crybabies' because they're unhappy with a decision only shows the maturity level of the person making the comment (this is directed at everyone, not just you).
iTools has ALWAYS been sold as an integrated part of the OS. Otherwise why would you have a Finder menubar option to mount your iDisk? Why would iPhoto have an integrated publishing capabilities for your iTools website? Why did Steve Jobs alleviate people's fears by saying they could use their iDisk for file transfer instead of the floppy drive they were eliminating from all machines? I think we all know the answer...
It was part of the reason why I chose a Mac over a comparably equipped PC, and one of the benefits I touted about being a Mac user...
Well, at least they gave us a 60 day eviction notice...
cheers.
g.<hr /></blockquote>You've illustrated my point better than I.

What do you think .Net is? Integrated web services into the OS. Think it will be free? Not for anything good. It might be free with Windows because MS can leverage it's enormous install base to leverage "Premium Services from Preferred Partners". It will be subsidized heavily.

How is Apple going to offer it for free? Once there is a user base they might be able to attract "Premium Service Partners" to subsidize the cost, but don't count on it in the near future. Apple is footing the bill and now they're passing it on to you. Seems reasonable enough, even if it is unfortunate.

Again, i'm not saying .Mac is worth it. It's yet another Tax on an already over-paying customer base, IMO. But I understand it.

You can't expect Apple to compete with MS and Dell unless you allow them to play hardball. That's all i'm saying.

You might find my new Topic about Apple's strategy flaws interesting. I'd certainly like to hear your opinion on it.