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US-forces in Iraq confused and disoriented...
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Taliesin
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Jan 12, 2005, 07:18 AM
 
... first they destroy a whole town (Falluja) in order to kill a few thousand insurgents, while not shy of using Napalm-like weapons. And the fighting in Falluja isn't over up to this day, airbombardments and street-to-street-searching still going on.

Then it seems that the insurgency has regrouped in Mossul and US-airbombardments is being used there. On Saturday a US-jet dropped a 500-pound-precision-bomb precisely on the wrong house and killed 14 innocent inhabitants.

In Bagdad a US-convoy was hit by a roadside-bomb at a checkpoint. The US-soldiers react by shooting blindly around, killing two iraqi-civilians and two iraqi police-men, while a fifth iraqi died of a heart-attack there.

Is that the usual madness of occupation? I guess so.

Taliesin

P.S: Edited for the obligatory BBC-link I forgot the first time:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4159521.stm
( Last edited by Taliesin; Jan 12, 2005 at 07:24 AM. )
     
spacefreak
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Jan 12, 2005, 12:52 PM
 
Originally posted by Taliesin:
... first they destroy a whole town (Falluja) in order to kill a few thousand insurgents, while not shy of using Napalm-like weapons. And the fighting in Falluja isn't over up to this day, airbombardments and street-to-street-searching still going on.
Yup. War sucks.

Then it seems that the insurgency has regrouped in Mossul and US-airbombardments is being used there. On Saturday a US-jet dropped a 500-pound-precision-bomb precisely on the wrong house and killed 14 innocent inhabitants.
Yup. War sucks.

In Bagdad a US-convoy was hit by a roadside-bomb at a checkpoint. The US-soldiers react by shooting blindly around, killing two iraqi-civilians and two iraqi police-men, while a fifth iraqi died of a heart-attack there.
Yup. War sucks.

Is that the usual madness of occupation? I guess so.
It's the usual madness of war, which sucks. When the enemy is trying to kill you, you try your best to kill them before they succeed.

Do you have any philosophical points to make, or was this just supposed to be a bash-the-US, screw-Iraq-and-let-the-thugs-rule thread?
     
Salah al-Din
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Jan 12, 2005, 02:24 PM
 
How many of you believe this would be this guys reply to this picture?


Originally posted by spacefreak:
Yup. War sucks.
     
nath
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Jan 12, 2005, 02:34 PM
 
Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
How many of you believe this would be this guys reply to this picture?
[img]image snip[/img]


     
Shaddim
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Jan 12, 2005, 03:03 PM
 
Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
How many of you believe this would be this guys reply to this picture?
Nah, we immediately should have carpet bombed (or launched a small tactical nuke) on the area where we thought Bin Laden was hiding. We were far too weak in our reaction.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Salah al-Din
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Jan 12, 2005, 03:05 PM
 
Originally posted by MacNStein:
Nah, we immediately should have carpet bombed (or launched a small tactical nuke) on the area where we thought Bin Laden was hiding. We were far too weak in our reaction.
So much for trying to minimize civilian casualties.
     
Shaddim
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Jan 12, 2005, 03:07 PM
 
Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
So much for trying to minimize civilian casualties.
Can't tell the difference. In violation of the Geneva convention, they don't wear uniforms. Just have to neutralize the area.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Salah al-Din
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Jan 12, 2005, 03:12 PM
 
Originally posted by MacNStein:
Can't tell the difference. In violation of the Geneva convention, they don't wear uniforms. Just have to neutralize the area.
Would you accept that to happen in the US?

For instance you are in a war on drugs. Time to nuke parts of Washington?
     
Shaddim
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Jan 12, 2005, 03:15 PM
 
Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
Would you accept that to happen in the US?

For instance you are in a war on drugs. Time to nuke parts of Washington?
When they start launching airliners into skyscrapers, sure.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Salah al-Din
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Jan 12, 2005, 03:18 PM
 
Originally posted by MacNStein:
When they start launching airliners into skyscrapers, sure.
So you believe that drugs have killed fewer than the 9/11 attacks. Interesting.
     
Shaddim
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Jan 12, 2005, 03:22 PM
 
Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
So you believe that drugs have killed fewer than the 9/11 attacks. Interesting.
Drug use is a choice, have a jet slam into your office building isn't.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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saab95
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Jan 12, 2005, 04:20 PM
 
Originally posted by MacNStein:
Nah, we immediately should have carpet bombed (or launched a small tactical nuke) on the area where we thought Bin Laden was hiding. We were far too weak in our reaction.
I strongly agree with that.
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By the way, I defend capitalists, not gangsters ;)
     
Zimphire
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Jan 12, 2005, 04:26 PM
 
Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
So you believe that drugs have killed fewer than the 9/11 attacks. Interesting.
Strawman
     
nath
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Jan 12, 2005, 04:46 PM
 
Originally posted by MacNStein:
Nah, we immediately should have carpet bombed (or launched a small tactical nuke) on the area where we thought Bin Laden was hiding. We were far too weak in our reaction.
I was under the impression that Tora Bora was carpet bombed. Was it not?
     
Shaddim
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Jan 12, 2005, 05:01 PM
 
Originally posted by nath:
I was under the impression that Tora Bora was carpet bombed. Was it not?
Obviously not quickly enough or well enough. Should have just hit the area with a cluster neutron bombs.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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nath
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Jan 12, 2005, 05:06 PM
 
Originally posted by MacNStein:
Obviously not quickly enough or well enough. Should have just hit the area with a cluster neutron bombs.
Ah, I see, you were being funny. I suppose having a sense of humour helps when things have gone so badly.
     
Shaddim
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Jan 12, 2005, 05:09 PM
 
Originally posted by nath:
Ah, I see, you were being funny. I suppose having a sense of humour helps when things have gone so badly.
No, no I wasn't being funny.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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eklipse
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Jan 12, 2005, 05:09 PM
 
Originally posted by MacNStein:
Obviously not quickly enough or well enough. Should have just hit the area with a cluster neutron bombs.
.....for all the good it would have done.
     
nath
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Jan 12, 2005, 05:10 PM
 
Originally posted by MacNStein:
No, no I wasn't being funny.
It doesn't have to be intentional you know.
     
Salah al-Din
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Jan 12, 2005, 05:12 PM
 
Originally posted by MacNStein:
Drug use is a choice, have a jet slam into your office building isn't.
But what about all the innocent victims of drug users? All the murders etc. Do you think there is a city in the US or Europe that has about 1500 suspected criminals? If you do, do you support carpet bombing it to get them out?
     
Shaddim
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Jan 12, 2005, 05:20 PM
 
Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
But what about all the innocent victims of drug users? All the murders etc. Do you think there is a city in the US or Europe that has about 1500 suspected criminals? If you do, do you support carpet bombing it to get them out?
Please, packup your strawman, it's already been torched.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Salah al-Din
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Jan 12, 2005, 05:25 PM
 
Originally posted by MacNStein:
Please, packup your strawman, it's already been torched.
What's the difference? Both are in your opinion criminals but for some reason you are willing to kill innocents to get one group but not the other. The only difference I can see is that one group is of a different skin colour than the other. Am I missing something?
     
spacefreak
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Jan 12, 2005, 05:28 PM
 
Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
How many of you believe this would be this guys reply to this picture?
You registered a new username for that?

My initial response to that event was to try and track down a good friend of mine who worked for Cantor Fitzgerald in the WTC. Parts of her were eventually found.

My subsequent response was "F---ing bastards. This sucks. Looks like we're at war."
     
BoomStick
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Jan 12, 2005, 05:38 PM
 
Allah responded with a tsunami.

Allah is truly great.
     
Shaddim
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Jan 12, 2005, 05:39 PM
 
Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
What's the difference? Both are in your opinion criminals but for some reason you are willing to kill innocents to get one group but not the other. The only difference I can see is that one group is of a different skin colour than the other. Am I missing something?
What?? I don't think people who deal with drugs are criminals. It's choice.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Salah al-Din
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Jan 12, 2005, 05:41 PM
 
Originally posted by spacefreak:
My subsequent response was "F---ing bastards. This sucks. Looks like we're at war."
So you understand that many Iraqis, Arabs and Muslims will want to start a war against the US because of the attacks on the innocents in Fallujah and Mosul and other places. Good. The only difference is that our puppets who call themselves leaders will never have the balls to respond and that will lead to "civilians" taking this war to you.

But it is good that your response will only be "Yup, war sucks" the next time the US is attacked.
     
Salah al-Din
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Jan 12, 2005, 05:42 PM
 
Originally posted by MacNStein:
What?? I don't think people who deal with drugs are criminals. It's choice.
So drugdealers(who often are murderers, rapists etc etc) aren't criminals? Not quite getting your point.
     
Shaddim
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Jan 12, 2005, 05:45 PM
 
Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
So drugdealers(who often are murderers, rapists etc etc) aren't criminals? Not quite getting your point.
*Woosh* Your strawman was toasted (and this is getting old), please try again.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Salah al-Din
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Jan 12, 2005, 05:47 PM
 
Originally posted by MacNStein:
*Woosh* Your strawman was toasted (and this is getting old), please try again.
I know you would want that but could you please tell me(and others here) what the difference is between the criminals in the US and Europe and the "criminals" in Mosul and Fallujah that warrants the difference in how the civilians around them are treated.
     
spacefreak
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Jan 12, 2005, 05:48 PM
 
Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
So you understand that many Iraqis, Arabs and Muslims will want to start a war against the US because of the attacks on the innocents in Fallujah and Mosul and other places. Good. The only difference is that our puppets who call themselves leaders will never have the balls to respond and that will lead to "civilians" taking this war to you.
Many Arabs and Muslims have already started a war against us.

As for civilian deaths in Iraq, they were not intended by us. If they were, the entire country would have been flattened in a day's time.

If the insurgency had some balls and stopped hiding behind civilians, I'm sure the death count would be significantly less.
But it is good that your response will only be "Yup, war sucks" the next time the US is attacked.
It's probably time you go back on your medication.
     
Salah al-Din
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Jan 12, 2005, 05:54 PM
 
Originally posted by spacefreak:
Many Arabs and Muslims have already started a war against us.

As for civilian deaths in Iraq, they were not intended by us. If they were, the entire country would have been flattened in a day's time.

If the insurgency had some balls and stopped hiding behind civilians, I'm sure the death count would be significantly less.

It's probably time you go back on your medication.
This is one of the problems. Both sides believe the other side started it. Therefore both sides will want to finish it and the war will continue forever.

So could you tell me what the difference is between the "criminals" in Fallujah and Mosul that make them different from western criminals in that it makes it OK to kill the civilians that live around them?

And was that a personal attack? Was that really necessary?
     
SimpleLife
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Jan 12, 2005, 07:33 PM
 
Originally posted by spacefreak:
Yup. War sucks.
Actually, War is fun; why would people do more of it otherwise?
     
deedar
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Jan 12, 2005, 07:43 PM
 
Then it seems that the insurgency has regrouped in Mosul and US-airbombardments is being used there. On Saturday a US-jet dropped a 500-pound-precision-bomb precisely on the wrong house and killed spacefreak's family.

Yup. War sucks.
     
saab95
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Jan 12, 2005, 08:21 PM
 
Originally posted by BoomStick:
Allah responded with a tsunami.

Allah is truly great.
Hello from the State of Independence

By the way, I defend capitalists, not gangsters ;)
     
Taliesin  (op)
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Jan 14, 2005, 07:13 AM
 
Originally posted by spacefreak:


As for civilian deaths in Iraq, they were not intended by us. If they were, the entire country would have been flattened in a day's time.
I agree, the death of civilians in Iraq is not intended by the US, but it is also not prevented enough because for the US it is better to have less US-soldiers killed than less civilians killed. Therefore often air-bombardments are used before US-soldiers go in. The result is a number of 200,000 killed civilians and maybe more.



Originally posted by spacefreak:
If the insurgency had some balls and stopped hiding behind civilians, I'm sure the death count would be significantly less.
That would be plain stupid for the insurgency to do as they are drastically underequipped compared with the US-forces and because they don't have air-support and can't control airspace either. It would be suicide, hmm, but wait some insurgents are commiting suicide-bombings against iraqi-police, now I'm confused.

Taliesin

P.S.: Seems like the thread-title was a bit prophetic. Now it seems like the US-forces were so confused and disoriented that they didn't find the hidden WMDs, that according to US-administration were 100% there.
     
Taliesin  (op)
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Jan 14, 2005, 07:17 AM
 
Originally posted by BoomStick:
Allah responded with a tsunami.

Allah is truly great.
It's not as clear-cut as it seems. While the civil-war-ridden islamic country Indonesia was affected the most, the Tsunami also hit hinduistic or buddhistic India, Sri-Lanka and Thailand. Not to forget the thousands of western tourists.

Maybe the Tsunami will have the sideeffect of ending the civil-war in Indonesia/Aceh. Indeed God is greater (Akbar means "greater", not great nor greatest, and Allah means just God) and only He knows what the Tsunami was good for. Besides the dead people will be cared of in paradise or in hell, depending on their belief and deeds. The survivors that have lost home, land and family-members, for them it's the hardest, and have my mercy and my and other people's humble prayers and monetary help.

Taliesin
     
Taliesin  (op)
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Jan 14, 2005, 07:30 AM
 
Originally posted by spacefreak:

It's the usual madness of war, which sucks. When the enemy is trying to kill you, you try your best to kill them before they succeed.

Do you have any philosophical points to make, or was this just supposed to be a bash-the-US, screw-Iraq-and-let-the-thugs-rule thread?
I thought the points were clear, the US is misusing its forces against a way underequipped insurgency to the point of harming civilians unnecessarily just in order to save a few lifes of US-soldiers who are prepared, ready and paid to die for the ideals of their nation.

Besides, while thugs can sometimes gain political might, they can't prevail for long periods, except if a mighty foreign nation is supporting the thugs, like Saddam Hussein and co were supported for decades.


Taliesin
     
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Jan 14, 2005, 08:02 AM
 
Originally posted by MacNStein:
No, no I wasn't being funny.
I have nothing useful to contribute. I shouldn't have said anything in response to you like what I did.
( Last edited by vmarks; Jan 14, 2005 at 09:21 AM. )
     
Powerbook
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Jan 15, 2005, 08:03 AM
 
Originally posted by MacNStein:
When they start launching airliners into skyscrapers, sure.
Which Iraqis launched airliners into skyscrapers, I have to ask?
<zimbo>
Strawman?
</zimbo>


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Jan 15, 2005, 09:23 AM
 
Originally posted by MacNStein:
Nah, we immediately should have carpet bombed (or launched a small tactical nuke) on the area where we thought Bin Laden was hiding. We were far too weak in our reaction.
Talking about civilians:

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Can't tell the difference. In violation of the Geneva convention, they don't wear uniforms. Just have to neutralize the area.
Originally posted by MacNStein:
No, no I wasn't being funny.
Since my last reply to you, was removed, let me say this as polite as possible to you: MacNStein, you have some serious mental problem and you should seek professional help about it.

Your respect for human life (innocent that is!) is out of the tolerable range.
     
Athens
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Jan 16, 2005, 10:44 AM
 
Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
How many of you believe this would be this guys reply to this picture?
If that had something to do with Iraq then fine, but since it dosent is there a point you are trying to make?
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Athens
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Jan 16, 2005, 10:46 AM
 
Originally posted by MacNStein:
Nah, we immediately should have carpet bombed (or launched a small tactical nuke) on the area where we thought Bin Laden was hiding. We were far too weak in our reaction.
Actually I agree with that. Would have saved a lot of money, resources, Iraq and would have left a clear message to Al Qaida and might have prevented other attacks around the world like in Spain.
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Athens
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Jan 16, 2005, 10:50 AM
 
Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
But what about all the innocent victims of drug users? All the murders etc. Do you think there is a city in the US or Europe that has about 1500 suspected criminals? If you do, do you support carpet bombing it to get them out?
Domestic criminials are not war criminials, what drugs are you smoking
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Athens
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Jan 16, 2005, 10:54 AM
 
Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
What's the difference? Both are in your opinion criminals but for some reason you are willing to kill innocents to get one group but not the other. The only difference I can see is that one group is of a different skin colour than the other. Am I missing something?
Funny the same can be said against the 911 attackers, did they attack the US because of there skin color? FOR CHRIST SAKE I hate defending Yanks, im as anti yank as the next guy, but stop being so dam stupid that I have to its annoying.
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Jan 16, 2005, 10:48 PM
 
Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
So could you tell me what the difference is between the "criminals" in Fallujah and Mosul that make them different from western criminals in that it makes it OK to kill the civilians that live around them?
Funny posts Salah al-Din. Trying to compare apple and oranges I see.

P.S. There are daily civilian casualties in our war on drugs and gang violence. So don't paint such a black and white picture. Falujah should clean up their own mess, but it seems they can't.
     
Salah al-Din
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Jan 17, 2005, 06:27 AM
 
Originally posted by Athens:
If that had something to do with Iraq then fine, but since it dosent is there a point you are trying to make?
That I doubt he'd say "Yup, war sucks" if the same happened to the USA and tens of thousands of innocent Americans were killed.
     
Salah al-Din
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Jan 17, 2005, 06:28 AM
 
Originally posted by Athens:
Domestic criminials are not war criminials, what drugs are you smoking
And what court decided that the "criminals" in Fallujah and Mosul(as well as other places) were war criminals?
     
Salah al-Din
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Jan 17, 2005, 06:29 AM
 
Originally posted by Athens:
Funny the same can be said against the 911 attackers, did they attack the US because of there skin color? FOR CHRIST SAKE I hate defending Yanks, im as anti yank as the next guy, but stop being so dam stupid that I have to its annoying.
No. They attacked the US because of it's major religion(and probably because they were non-Arabs). Just as bad.
     
Salah al-Din
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Jan 17, 2005, 06:30 AM
 
Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
Funny posts Salah al-Din. Trying to compare apple and oranges I see.

P.S. There are daily civilian casualties in our war on drugs and gang violence. So don't paint such a black and white picture. Falujah should clean up their own mess, but it seems they can't.
So how many towns have been partially evacuated and then levelled with the ground because about 1% of the population were suspected criminals(in the US of course)?
     
Athens
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Jan 17, 2005, 07:51 AM
 
Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
So how many towns have been partially evacuated and then levelled with the ground because about 1% of the population were suspected criminals(in the US of course)?
South Central LA?
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