[The Godfather]

Poll not made, to avoid the temptation to make snarky options?

Do you ask the details of the event?
Do you stare in silence?
Do you scold the presumed victim?
Do you ask who the perpetrator is?
"You are still here so it couldn't have been that bad"?
Do you swear effective, commensurate justice on his/her behalf?
"Join the club"?

[edit] Thanks ot the mods for moving this delicate topic to here. Added a couple more options.

[Oisín]

(Moved to the Lounge)

My answer: I do whatever I think my friend expects/wants me to do. If they’re suddenly telling me this now, after two years, I take it there must be a reason. If they’re wanting to talk about it, I talk to them about it as best I can, trying my best to figure out whether they want me to ask who the perpetrator was, etc. If they’re wanting help with reporting it, I tell them I’ll do my best to be there for them.

[finboy]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

(Moved to the Lounge)

My answer: I do whatever I think my friend expects/wants me to do. If they’re suddenly telling me this now, after two years, I take it there must be a reason. If they’re wanting to talk about it, I talk to them about it as best I can, trying my best to figure out whether they want me to ask who the perpetrator was, etc. If they’re wanting help with reporting it, I tell them I’ll do my best to be there for them.

Sounds like a plan.

I've actually been through this, when I was in college, and again, with a different friend, after. Both were "date rapes" that had occurred when my friends were in school, and the perps were in our circle of friends from high school or college. Neither victim decided to report the assaults, but I gather that was common 25-30 years ago.

I've also been surprised to learn how common the experience is (sexual assault) among women in my generation - I've had other friends who've had similar experiences, or outright assaults by strangers, without reporting them.

[ghporter]

What the person wants is for you to listen. Express understanding without interrupting and let her vent the whole thing. At this late date there's little legal that could be done, but the emotional scars take lots of time to firm up, let alone heal. Your friend will no doubt need more "shoulder to cry on" time, but being able to provide quiet support at the beginning is crucial.

Even today it's way too common for the victim of a rape to not report the crime. Either because she feels she'll be re-victimized by the legal system, or because she's embarrassed ("I was stupid to let myself get into the situation"/"I thought I was in control"/other), or because she feels it won't do any good. In most US jurisdictions though it WILL. Even in Texas-maybe particularly in Texas-victims are really well supported by the state Attorney General, Greg Abbott, and most counties have a process and professionals in place to gather evidence and provide the victim with plenty of support. Mr. Abbott appears to like putting rapists in prison for a very long time, and helping victims regain their lives.

[subego]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

What the person wants is for you to listen. Express understanding without interrupting and let her vent the whole thing.

Well put.

The main interaction someone wants from you in this situation is reassurance you're listening well, and that you care about what they're saying.

[Doofy]

Yes. You listen. That's it - all you can do.

[bstone]

What I would do: Be a good friend, listen, *strongly* suggest she get into psychotherapy and ask if she has considered talking to the police. Also, go to a doctor for a full physical and STD testing.

[brassplayersrock²]

Lets put a spin on this.

Instead of a friend, make it a family member.

What would your reaction be then?

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock² 

Lets put a spin on this.

Instead of a friend, make it a family member.

What would your reaction be then?

Simple. The rapist would die and their body would never be found.

[exca1ibur]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Simple. The rapist would die and their body would never be found.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Simple. The rapist would die and their body would never be found.

Which is why I got out of counseling. Having the perpetrator "disappear" doesn't help with closure, doesn't publicly put the responsibility where it must be, and doesn't really help the victim take control of her life again. Sending him to a nice cozy state prison where he can meet Bubba, who is lonely and needs a "friend," that's a much better choice.

Seriously, why should the victim have to live with the aftermath when the perpetrator doesn't have to?

[Waragainstsleep]

So (badly) maim, don't kill. Difficult to reoffend with no genitals. Or legs.

[Spheric Harlot]

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

—Mahatma Gandhi

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Which is why I got out of counseling. Having the perpetrator "disappear" doesn't help with closure, doesn't publicly put the responsibility where it must be, and doesn't really help the victim take control of her life again. Sending him to a nice cozy state prison where he can meet Bubba, who is lonely and needs a "friend," that's a much better choice.

Seriously, why should the victim have to live with the aftermath when the perpetrator doesn't have to?

It would help the woman with closure. I've watched rape victims have to go through weeks and months of hearings and a trial, it's worse for them than it is for the rapist. Reliving the details of the event over and over, often in front of strangers. Later they find out that the perp may only spend a few years in prison, and then they'll be back out again likely doing the same thing to someone else, and then she lives in fear that the guy could come after her for putting him behind bars. It's better if she never has to worry about them again.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

—Mahatma Gandhi

In this instance, I can live with a little blindness.

[Spheric Harlot]

It won't help the victim, who'd be the only one conceivably entitled to vengeance. As you are neither law enforcement nor God, you're not entitled to sentence anybody to punishment.

Vengeance makes for wonderful closure in Hollywood screenplays. Those are rarely written by victims who've actually turned into perpetrators themselves.

[andi*pandi]

Listen, be compassionate, be there.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

It won't help the victim, who'd be the only one conceivably entitled to vengeance. As you are neither law enforcement nor God, you're not entitled to sentence anybody to punishment.

Vengeance makes for wonderful closure in Hollywood screenplays. Those are rarely written by victims who've actually turned into perpetrators themselves.

It's okay, calm down. We can pretend to live in a cotton candy world where thugs go to prison and feel remorse for what they did. Then they get out and work to redeem themselves and make tearful apologies to their victims.

Fact: Perps who commit violent rape have a taste for it and have done it before.
Fact: If they do go to prison they'll likely be abused themselves making them worse. "Bubba" raping them every day for the next several years isn't going to make them more sympathetic. That's pure Hollywood, right there.
Fact: When they get out they'll keep doing it, because they crave the feeling of power that it gives them because they feel that they have no control over their own lives. They end up perpetuating the whole "do unto you what's been done unto me" cycle.
Fact: A .38 slug to the back of the head stops them from doing it again.

Now, if we could actually rehab these people, maybe castration combined with intense psychological therapy, I'd be for it. Won't happen though, as someone would decide that it's "cruel and unusual" punishment. No, I'd do what I feel should be done, and if you would be honest with yourself, you would admit that the thought would cross your mind too.

The law in many instances is fine, but it fails in some areas, this is one of them. I'm not saying all this to get approval, I don't need it. BPR just asked what we'd do.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Now, if we could actually rehab these people, maybe castration combined with intense psychological therapy, I'd be for it.

Let's not perpetuate the myth that rape is a "sex" crime. It is NOT. It is a violent crime that targets the victim's sexuality. Castration is not an effective "rehab" method-in fact it may be counterproductive. The perpetrator could become even more violent without the ability to use his own genitals to harm others.

My suggestion about "meeting Bubba" was actually multilayered. A bit of "payback" was the top layer, but knowing that the most common personality type for rapists is aggressive and poor at impulse and temper control. They tend to get into fights a lot, and to try to handle all issues, no matter how small, with direct, often violent action. This does not go over well in prison populations, and there's evidence that such persons either learn a serious amount of self control very quickly, or they spend a lot of time in the prison hospital.

The problem with a rapist being murdered before facing trial is that his victim does not get the general public's awareness that her attacker will pay for his actions. This is a powerful means of restoring the victim's sense of self and reducing her sense of victimhood. When the entire justice system agrees with you, and puts someone behind bars for a long time, that's strong medicine.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Let's not perpetuate the myth that rape is a "sex" crime. It is NOT.

I didn't.

Originally Posted by Shaddim

]When they get out they'll keep doing it, because they crave the feeling of power that it gives them because they feel that they have no control over their own lives

It's about power, control, and being able to make someone else feel a very intimate kind of pain.

Castration is not an effective "rehab" method-in fact it may be counterproductive. The perpetrator could become even more violent without the ability to use his own genitals to harm others.

You're right, shooting them is better. No, seriously, castrating and therapy for several years would work. It would lower testosterone levels, remove them from the violent environment, and teach them that there are other ways to deal with their self-loathing.

My suggestion about "meeting Bubba" was actually multilayered. A bit of "payback" was the top layer, but knowing that the most common personality type for rapists is aggressive and poor at impulse and temper control. They tend to get into fights a lot, and to try to handle all issues, no matter how small, with direct, often violent action. This does not go over well in prison populations, and there's evidence that such persons either learn a serious amount of self control very quickly, or they spend a lot of time in the prison hospital.

They don't learn control that way, they just become more violent and more adept at hiding it.

The problem with a rapist being murdered before facing trial is that his victim does not get the general public's awareness that her attacker will pay for his actions. This is a powerful means of restoring the victim's sense of self and reducing her sense of victimhood. When the entire justice system agrees with you, and puts someone behind bars for a long time, that's strong medicine.

The victim just wants it to be over, wants the rapist to pay, and then wants to get on with their life. In prison the rapist doesn't "pay" for their actions, they just perpetuate the cycle of rape and torment, on themselves and other inmates. No one has ever proven that the current system actually rehabilitates sex offenders.

BPR asked what I would do if it were a member of my family, not what my views were on the matter, in general. For eveyone else, I'd let the justice system handle all of it and offer sympathy and condolences. If it's my family, it's personal and he'd pay. Then the victim would sleep better knowing that he's gone forever.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

The victim just wants it to be over, wants the rapist to pay, and then wants to get on with their life.

That's what I meant about "Hollywood" closure.

It's never actually "over" for the victim.

Perpetrating violence doesn't alleviate that fact. It just adds to the burden to cope with in getting on with life.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

That's what I meant about "Hollywood" closure.

It's never actually "over" for the victim.

Perpetrating violence doesn't alleviate that fact. It just adds to the burden to cope with in getting on with life.

In your opinion. Not having that person around anymore means they'll not be looking over their shoulder when the guy is released from prison. I've talked to victims, I know they worry about the day their attackers get out and what might happen. Many buy guns and get permits to carry them, and I know how much you love that idea.

You are right though, it's never really over, even if the guy dies. They live with the memory for the rest of their lives and they all die a little because of it.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

In your opinion. Not having that person around anymore means they'll not be looking over their shoulder when the guy is released from prison. I've talked to victims, I know they worry about the day their attackers get out and what might happen. Many buy guns and get permits to carry them, and I know how much you love that idea.

You are right though, it's never really over, even if the guy dies. They live with the memory for the rest of their lives and they all die a little because of it.

He's right. It never is over for the victim. And it's not his opinion, but rather that of the behavioral health community. This sort of attack leaves a scar that does not really heal. The victim learns to cope, and move along (if she's lucky), but she's always a different person because of it. This is why "personal vengeance" is not helpful-it adds to the victim's burden of guilt and shame.

While it's always a possibility that a rapist may eventually get out of prison and "come looking for" the victim, it's not statistically common. And in fact statistics DO support that violent offenders do learn control-or fail to do so and wind up being involved in plenty of altercations while behind bars. This has the effect of lessening the rapist's threat potential, as prison fight injuries are commonly very severe.

[Shaddim]

I'm curious to see what castration and therapy would do for violent sex offenders, but such a study could never be done. Like I said before, the lower testosterone levels and constant therapy in a closed and disciplined environment could very well bring about a drastic change for the better for the vast majority. Still, no one has proven that the current system works with anything close to the majority of offenders, and I'd like to see us implement one that does.

As for the attacker "coming for them", I'm not saying that it's likely, but it's what they worry about. Some are very irrational when that issue is involved, and it's understandable.

[Spheric Harlot]

I understand the sentiment, but I think it's more important to have a system that works best for the majority of VICTIMS.

That's an extremely delicate matter, and it runs largely opposite to intuition.

[Waragainstsleep]

Surely the most important function of any system should be to prevent further victims?
Branding violent sex criminals simply as violent criminals is utterly wrong, violent criminals tend to be criminals who don't mind using violence to commit their crimes. Stealing money or property or lashing out at someone through jealousy is a massively different motivation than 'stealing' sexual gratification. Hurting people to feed yourself or just to buy yourself a new Bentley is not the same as hurting people to get laid and the violence is often a part of the pleasure for the attacker. It goes way beyond simple impulse control issues. The worst sex criminals often reoffend even when they have been locked up for a long time because imprisonment does not address the root cause of their horrific desires. Its not clear that anything ever really can.

It certainly doesn't help that they tend to get relatively pathetic sentences. As has been pointed out committing rape is hardly different from imposing a lifetime of psychological torture on someone and murder victims don't have to live with their trauma. The sentencing in many countries is completely ridiculous. You find that people committing large scale fraud will get much longer sentences.

Most serial rapists should never be completely released, though a voluntary castration might not be a bad idea if they wish to be freed again. They should certainly be well monitored.

There are less violent forms of rape that could be more to do with impulse control but I suspect there are some large scale social attitude issues and very big ego problems that border on pathological involved there too. That doesn't really seem to be the sort of rape we are talking about.

As with anything people are always too keen to reduce things to black and white. There are cases quite recently in the UK where it appears that a drunk girl has slept with someone equally drunk and simply decided to regret it so much in the morning that she ends up accusing her partner of rape and he has been punished as such. If you go around killing people for revenge under circumstances like that, you are asking for a lot of trouble. Personally I think that in clear cut cases where violence or certain drugs are used, then castration is an entirely viable way to go. As much to prevent those perpetrators from procreating as reoffending. The only issue then becomes that people who are falsely convicted can be irrevocably punished so in practical terms, you might have to restrict such sentences to people who have committed multiple independent violent sex crimes. Its the same problem as the death penalty in some ways.

[ghporter]

It's NOT "sexual gratification," it's "using HER genitals against her." Big difference. And while most rapists use their own genitals in the attack, not all do. It's about power-his using his power (size, strength, etc.) to inflict damage on someone with very little power (physically) in a way that harms her where she is most vulnerable.

Most rapists have normal, regular, consensual sexual outlets available to them. Most rapists choose victims for their vulnerability to attack, not sexuality (note the incidence of rape against the elderly and against juveniles). And most rapists use threats of further violence (not further rape) to psychologically restrain their victims from reporting the attack. It is simply not about sex, but rather about using the victim's sexuality and vulnerability against her.

[Laminar]

A friend confides to you that he/she was raped...

How has this not yet been addressed?

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

I understand the sentiment, but I think it's more important to have a system that works best for the majority of VICTIMS.

That's an extremely delicate matter, and it runs largely opposite to intuition.

Well, if you want a system that works best for the majority of victims, and potential future victims, we'd kill all violent sex offenders, especially those who prey on children. One, it removes them from society permanently, and two, it sends out the message that this type of behavior is met with lethal force.

However, since I'm not a proponent of capital punishment in most cases, uncompromising and effective rehabilitation is the only option for offenders. Throwing them in with others who are like them, in general population and unsupervised, doesn't work. Sure, we may feel vindicated and enoy the notion that the perp being abused and sodomized by hosts of others in the showers is a good thing, but it doesn't fix the problem and the person will eventually get out. For victims, there's only counseling, and the knowledge that their attacker is being dealt with in a manner that will likely keep them from being a threat to anyone else in the future.

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

It's NOT "sexual gratification," it's "using HER genitals against her." Big difference. And while most rapists use their own genitals in the attack, not all do. It's about power-his using his power (size, strength, etc.) to inflict damage on someone with very little power (physically) in a way that harms her where she is most vulnerable.

Most rapists have normal, regular, consensual sexual outlets available to them. Most rapists choose victims for their vulnerability to attack, not sexuality (note the incidence of rape against the elderly and against juveniles). And most rapists use threats of further violence (not further rape) to psychologically restrain their victims from reporting the attack. It is simply not about sex, but rather about using the victim's sexuality and vulnerability against her.

Its still gratification. And it is not the same as mugging, carjacking or robbing a bank. In those cases the violence is the means to an ends, whether the criminal is trying to gain material wealth or simply respect from peers. Its entirely different and should be treated as such.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Well, if you want a system that works best for the majority of victims, and potential future victims, we'd kill all violent sex offenders, especially those who prey on children. One, it removes them from society permanently, and two, it sends out the message that this type of behavior is met with lethal force.

I may have mentioned above that this is FAR from best for the victim, in general.

There is no ideal solution (what's "ideal" in a situation where you've become a victim of sexual violence?), but there are apparently ways of greatly reducing the chances of repeat offenses WITHOUT adding responsibility for someone's death to a burden that's already maimed the victim for life.

To put it gently, killing someone is only fine if you don't give a shit about a human life. More often than not, victims of sexual offenses BECOME victims in part BECAUSE they are overly sympathetic to the needs of others to begin with.

Sorry, I don't know how to make this any more clear, if it's still not coming across.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

How has this not yet been addressed?

Because it's not relevant.

[brassplayersrock²]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Because it's not relevant.

male rape victims - Google Search

A man being raped does not equal any less than a female getting raped. It's still a violent sexual assault on a person.

[Spheric Harlot]

Exactly.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

I may have mentioned above that this is FAR from best for the victim, in general.

There is no ideal solution (what's "ideal" in a situation where you've become a victim of sexual violence?), but there are apparently ways of greatly reducing the chances of repeat offenses WITHOUT adding responsibility for someone's death to a burden that's already maimed the victim for life.

To put it gently, killing someone is only fine if you don't give a shit about a human life. More often than not, victims of sexual offenses BECOME victims in part BECAUSE they are overly sympathetic to the needs of others to begin with.

Sorry, I don't know how to make this any more clear, if it's still not coming across.

Ask the victims and see if they want their rapist dead, would be an interesting poll, I'll bet. Also, I'm not talking about victims, I'm also talking about potential victims. Fewer sexual predators = fewer sexual predators.

However, I don't agree with that approach and believe there's a better way.

[The Godfather]

What if the "Clockwork Orange" solution was not fiction? Would it be ethical to implement exactly as in the story? Differently?

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Ask the victims and see if they want their rapist dead, would be an interesting poll, I'll bet.

It would be even more interesting to repeat the poll ten years later.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

It would be even more interesting to repeat the poll ten years later.

I agree. It's a subject that raises interesting questions.