[Steve Bosell]

Apple TV needs a visualizer for when you are listening to music, namely milkdrop. I would like to replace my xbox media center, however I use it for listening to music 80% of the time, it would get boring staring at the cover art.

[Dark Helmet]

OMG no milkdrop no sale!

[Calimus]

Originally Posted by Steve Bosell 

Apple TV needs a visualizer for when you are listening to music, namely milkdrop. I would like to replace my xbox media center, however I use it for listening to music 80% of the time, it would get boring staring at the cover art.

I dunno any visualizer I've ever seen gets boring after minutes. I would rather having the screen full of useful information than a glorified lava lamp.

The bigger deal breaker for me is no dvr functionality. I only have the basic $12/mo cable, but still record probably 50 shows a month on my home built dvr box. That would cost me $100 a month in itunes(less over time as I had built up full seasons of shows). I have a feeling they will use the usb port on there to have either an Apple pvr add on, or support third party devices. Also doesn't seem to be an easy way to view the hundreds of video files in divx format I have on the dvr box currently.

[Salty]

In all honesty I think the lack of PVR functionality is going to be the big kicker for people. The fact is a lot of devices exist that are somewhat similar and can record TV. The problem comes in Apple not wanting to kill TV sales on iTunes.

[Dakar²]

PVR was the first thing I thought of, so yeah, I think Salty has a point.

[MaxPower2k3]

The tv was never meant to function as, replace, or be a DVR. Its sole function is to get the media on your computer to the ideal viewing/listening environment in your house. This is very different than being a DVR, and involves very different components. All it has to do now is receive files from the network and play them back. For it to be a DVR, it would have to have video/audio inputs, an Analog to Digital converter (a decent one of which retails for around $200), and video encoding chips (since that 1GHz Pentium-M would never be able to handle real-time H.264 encoding), plus a whole other level of software to incorporate scheduling and such. And what would they get out of it? Less revenue from iTunes, and probably much lower margins on the tv unit itself.


If you want a DVR, get a TiVo.

[Langdon]

Originally Posted by Steve Bosell 

Apple TV needs a visualizer for when you are listening to music, ..........., it would get boring staring at the cover art.

Agreed, but not for your reasons. I just don't think anyone wants images burned into their HDTV screens. And flipping the cover art around is a pretty cheap looking way of circumventing the problem.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by Langdon 

Agreed, but not for your reasons. I just don't think anyone wants images burned into their HDTV screens. And flipping the cover art around is a pretty cheap looking way of circumventing the problem.

Cheap? It works! What else you want them to do?

[mindwaves]

Deal breaker for me is that it is very expensive for what it does and I don't even own a TV.

[Dakar²]

I'd thing the former is irrelevant in the face of the latter.

[macintologist]

Deal breaker for me is that it won't be able to handle .avi files. I rip all my videos in .avi format due to the mp4 gamma bug in Quicktime.

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by MaxPower2k3 

For it to be a DVR, it would have to have video/audio inputs, an Analog to Digital converter (a decent one of which retails for around $200), and video encoding chips (since that 1GHz Pentium-M would never be able to handle real-time H.264 encoding)

Ignoring the fact that this isn't Mac compatible, what's stopping Apple from tossing components like these into it (I'm talking hardware wise, not compatibility or business sense)?

[Dark Helmet]

Why is everyone thinking it is a PVR just because it hooks up to a TV.
How could Apple do a better job than TiVo?

The Apple TV is a cheaper alternative than getting a Mini as a home theatre server that so many have done. It is not here to record video just act as an extension to the media you have purchased (or ripped) from the Apple store.

[MaxPower2k3]

Originally Posted by Gossamer 

Ignoring the fact that this isn't Mac compatible, what's stopping Apple from tossing components like these into it (I'm talking hardware wise, not compatibility or business sense)?

Purely from a hardware perspective, of course they could have built DVR functionality into it. Unfortunately, you can't really separate that from the business side of it. It would make the device more expensive. A decent Analog to DV converter such as the DataVideo DAC-100 is $199. And DV is much less processor intensive to encode than H.264. And all that extra money would get them is lower profits. So it's not really surprising that they didn't try to make an Apple TiVo. (Plus, like Dark Helmet said, TiVo is already the ubiquitous DVR. They're the iPod of DVRs. And if Apple can't be the iPod of the market they're entering, I don't think they'll go for it)

[slugslugslug]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

Why is everyone thinking it is a PVR just because it hooks up to a TV.
How could Apple do a better job than TiVo?

They could make a PVR that you only have to pay for once, instead of one that's bricked once you stop subscribing.

[Calimus]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

Why is everyone thinking it is a PVR just because it hooks up to a TV.
How could Apple do a better job than TiVo?

The Apple TV is a cheaper alternative than getting a Mini as a home theatre server that so many have done. It is not here to record video just act as an extension to the media you have purchased (or ripped) from the Apple store.

I think what most people want(at least the vocal one online, myself included) is a single box that will do all our media in one place. I don't want to switch from tivo to apple tv, to my dvd player, etc. If it's all in one place, with one interface, one remote, it would be SOO much better. For me personally, I already have all the functionality offered by the itv(minus playing drmed content) My PVR box cost me $399, and I can play my itunes library, listen to net radio, view photos from my iphoto libraries on multiple systems, play emulator games(nes, snes, genesis, mame, n64, playstation set up currently) watch 50 movies at the touch of a button, browse/view/archive Youtube clips, browse through many shows I have archived, or just watch the shows that are automatically recorded.

I can do all this from one interface, with one remote(plus a game controller for emulator games). The ONLY thing that I feel is missing is the slick Apple polish. The interface on my current setup is alright, but I have to mess with things to add new features, I have to set up directories, tell it where files are, etc. Apple TV would require me to switch back and forth between the pvr and Apple TV, and probably would result in the Apple TV not being used very much except for when friends come over to show pictures, or for music on the TV sound system.

As for the argument that Apple TV is just for extending media to the livingroom, then it should compete at least in the same ballpark on price with the other offers. There are quite a few for under $100, and many more for under $200 that offer more features and Apple TV(minus itunes integration).

[Langdon]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

Cheap? It works! What else you want them to do?

Make it look elegant? Possibly add some of that flash and style Apple likes to be known for. No one is saying to make the visualizer the default setting but rather to make it an option.

It "working" by just having the UI on a revolving cycle IS cheap looking.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by Steve Bosell 

Apple TV needs a visualizer for when you are listening to music, namely milkdrop. I would like to replace my xbox media center, however I use it for listening to music 80% of the time, it would get boring staring at the cover art.

I totally agree with you, but seeing as how it has a intel chip, I'm guessing someone will make one for it. The 'dealbreaker' for me is that it doesn't have a DVD drive, so it's not going to replace my DVD player, it can't encode my DVDs, and the optical port is useless as nothing is encoded in surround sound anyway.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

Cheap? It works! What else you want them to do?

Use milkdrop, g-force, or whitecap? Duh.

[Calimus]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

I totally agree with you, but seeing as how it has a intel chip, I'm guessing someone will make one for it. The 'dealbreaker' for me is that it doesn't have a DVD drive, so it's not going to replace my DVD player, it can't encode my DVDs, and the optical port is useless as nothing is encoded in surround sound anyway.

I thought I read somewhere that the Itunes movies had 5.1? Maybe I'm confusing them with the Xbox 360 video stuff.

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by Calimus 

I think what most people want(at least the vocal one online, myself included) is a single box that will do all our media in one place. I don't want to switch from tivo to apple tv, to my dvd player, etc. If it's all in one place, with one interface, one remote, it would be SOO much better. For me personally, I already have all the functionality offered by the itv(minus playing drmed content) My PVR box cost me $399, and I can play my itunes library, listen to net radio, view photos from my iphoto libraries on multiple systems, play emulator games(nes, snes, genesis, mame, n64, playstation set up currently) watch 50 movies at the touch of a button, browse/view/archive Youtube clips, browse through many shows I have archived, or just watch the shows that are automatically recorded..

Are you using MythTV? If so, what TV tuner do you have? I considered building one of these last summer but the tv tuner I have wasn't supported. But once i get my MBP I'l have a spare PC in a silent Antec enclosure, which is more than ideal for a HTPC. I just need to add a tuner and a $25 Radeon X300SE for S-video/DVI out.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by Langdon 

Make it look elegant? Possibly add some of that flash and style Apple likes to be known for. No one is saying to make the visualizer the default setting but rather to make it an option.

It "working" by just having the UI on a revolving cycle IS cheap looking.

Personally I think some nice cover art with the track information is not only more informative but classier than flying squiggly lines in every colour of the rainbow.

But to each his own.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by Calimus 

I thought I read somewhere that the Itunes movies had 5.1? Maybe I'm confusing them with the Xbox 360 video stuff.

Nope, they don't. Which is why the optical port is retarded.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

Personally I think some nice cover art with the track information is not only more informative but classier than flying squiggly lines in every colour of the rainbow.

But to each his own.

I know you're a huge mac fan, so I understand your bias, but have you ever SEEN milkdrop in action? I don't mean screenshots.... but the depth and variety of patterns, environments, and pallettes that thing has is amazing. It blows the crap out of any visualizer available for the mac. Also, if I'm mistaken here, please correct me, but I thought you...eh... toked? If so, and you haven't seen Milkdrop, you're missing out man.

[Calimus]

Originally Posted by Gossamer 

Are you using MythTV? If so, what TV tuner do you have? I considered building one of these last summer but the tv tuner I have wasn't supported. But once i get my MBP I'l have a spare PC in a silent Antec enclosure, which is more than ideal for a HTPC. I just need to add a tuner and a $25 Radeon X300SE for S-video/DVI out.

I'm using a windows based free one called GB-PVR. It's free and the guy posts updates like once a month with new features, plus there is a really active forum for support issues. I tried MythTV, but driver issues were giving me too many headaches, and I just couldn't get it working right. Hardware wise, I'm using a 2ghz athlon cpu, 2 Hauppauge pvr 150 cards so I can record 2 simultaneous shows. Output is via svideo on my old radeon 7500 currently, but I'll use dvi once I get an hdtv. If you get the OEM Hauppauge cards, I think they are like $70, I got one OEM, and one from retail(OEM one doesn't come with a remote)

I've been using the setup for over a year now with no problems, works great.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

Also, if I'm mistaken here, please correct me, but I thought you...eh... toked? If so, and you haven't seen Milkdrop, you're missing out man.

Well I got my 360 for that as its animations are pretty cool.

Still, if I was using the TV I'd rather have it look nice that some trippy assed lines.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by MaxPower2k3 

TiVo is already the ubiquitous DVR. They're the iPod of DVRs. And if Apple can't be the iPod of the market they're entering, I don't think they'll go for it)

Not really. Tivo isn't available except in the US, UK and Taiwan. The rest of the world uses something else.

All 6.5+ billion of them.

V

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

Well I got my 360 for that as its animations are pretty cool.

Still, if I was using the TV I'd rather have it look nice that some trippy assed lines.

So I don't understand.

1. You haven't seen Milkdrop in action, so you don't know what you're talking about.
2. You enjoyed the animations that the 360 plays
3. You want the iTv to not even have the option of playing animations, but instead to just show a cheesy rotating low resolution image?

I don't get your opinion... seems to me you're straying close to the apple fanboy mentality that defends every decision apple makes.

[MaxPower2k3]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Not really. Tivo isn't available except in the US, UK and Taiwan. The rest of the world uses something else.

All 6.5+ billion of them.

V

Ah, sorry then. I didn't realize that. Is there any one leading product outside of TiVo's market, or is it just an assortment of smaller brands?

Unfortunately, it seems the rest of the world comes after the US to Apple. I think they want to keep up their successful image in their primary market, (the US) so for them to release a product that, even if successful elsewhere, doesn't do well in the US would, in their eyes, hurt their image.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

3. You want the iTv to not even have the option of playing animations, but instead to just show a cheesy rotating low resolution image?

Ignoring 1 and 2 the important thing is I am not skipping AppleTV because it doesn't have a tripped out animation which is even more stupid to me.

More importantly Apple is marketing this to people who have HD-TVs.

Almost ALL HDTV's burn out over time, use a ton of power and generate heat. I am not leaving a TV on all day to watch animations when it has a $400 bulb in it that needs replacing every 5000 hours or so. Even worse Plasma's and LCD's fade over time...permanently.

Fact is, there are a few who want it but very few who will use it on any regular basis. If that is what you want buy a MacMini that does way more including animations.

[centerchannel68]

So you leave your Xbox 360 + HD TV on ALL DAY?

Or is it possible that you might just SOMETIMES want to watch animations, not necessarily leaving it on the entire day?

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

So you leave your Xbox 360 + HD TV on ALL DAY?

Or is it possible that you might just SOMETIMES want to watch animations, not necessarily leaving it on the entire day?

Like I said if that is what someone wants go nuts. If that is what you want go nuts.

What I am saying is that for ME I think the current method looks nice and I wouldn't skip out on Apple TV JUST for visuals.

If you are the type that would... well I guess we won't see you in this thread again until Apple changes things. In the mean time lots of people will be buying them.

P.S. Again with many current RP-HDTV's the bulb needs to warm up for a couple minutes and turning the set on and off is not good and shortens the life of the unit. So no, I am not going to turn on the TV to pick a song and watch animations for 45 minutes now and again.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by MaxPower2k3 

Ah, sorry then. I didn't realize that. Is there any one leading product outside of TiVo's market, or is it just an assortment of smaller brands?

Unfortunately, it seems the rest of the world comes after the US to Apple. I think they want to keep up their successful image in their primary market, (the US) so for them to release a product that, even if successful elsewhere, doesn't do well in the US would, in their eyes, hurt their image.

There are many brands of DVRs out there. I don't know, but I don't think there is one brand that overshadows all the other brands. I know many people who have DVRs, but of various brands.

The US-centricity of Apple is no surprise, but it may hurt them in the long run. The Apple-TV is probably fine, since a good DVR would have needed to be without any digital-rights scheme. Apple would never have that.

So, Apple makes a monitor-less iPod. Sure, why not.

The US-centricity of Apple will hurt them more with the iPhone. Europe is *the* GSM market. The US market is an afterthought.

V

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

Like I said if that is what someone wants go nuts. If that is what you want go nuts.

What I am saying is that for ME I think the current method looks nice and I wouldn't skip out on Apple TV JUST for visuals.

If you are the type that would... well I guess we won't see you in this thread again until Apple changes things. In the mean time lots of people will be buying them.

P.S. Again with many current RP-HDTV's the bulb needs to warm up for a couple minutes and turning the set on and off is not good and shortens the life of the unit. So no, I am not going to turn on the TV to pick a song and watch animations for 45 minutes now and again.

So you only use your TV if you have it on for 45 minutes or longer? I've listened to music with friends and watched visuals for hours before, FYI. And no, I'm not skipping out on the iTV purely because of visuals, but a conglomeration of the other reasons I've stated: Lack of surround sound, lack of ability to encode DVDs, etc.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

So you only use your TV if you have it on for 45 minutes or longer?

Yes. I never do quick on and off's with it. If I want visuals well the 360 does it better than anything else or I can look at my computer.

Anyway, i am not saying Apple shouldn't add visualizers but it is a bit silly to skip it just for that.

[imitchellg5]

You guys are teh nerdy.

[andreas_g4]

Originally Posted by Calimus 

I only have the basic $12/mo cable, but still record probably 50 shows a month….

You must have an awesome load of crap at your viewing disposal…

[Calimus]

Originally Posted by andreas_g4 

You must have an awesome load of crap at your viewing disposal…

Perhaps. If you consider Simpsons, PBS shows(Nova, Frontline), That 70's show, Frasier, Heroes, Lost, etc. to be crap.

Why spend thousands or even tens of thousands of extra dollars over a lifetime to pay $90 a month or more for cable, when you can't even watch everything available on the free stations(If you time shift only the shows you want to the times you want to watch). I only watch maybe an hour of TV a day, so it makes no sense to pay for all the extra channels. $12 a month for cable, $5.99 for netflix, and I'm set.

Edit: Also, by 50 shows, I meant 50 episodes, I probably only have 10-15 different shows my wife and I record.

[andreas_g4]

Originally Posted by Calimus 

Perhaps. If you consider Simpsons, PBS shows(Nova, Frontline), That 70's show, Frasier, Heroes, Lost, etc. to be crap.

Why spend thousands or even tens of thousands of extra dollars over a lifetime to pay $90 a month or more for cable, when you can't even watch everything available on the free stations(If you time shift only the shows you want to the times you want to watch). I only watch maybe an hour of TV a day, so it makes no sense to pay for all the extra channels. $12 a month for cable, $5.99 for netflix, and I'm set.

Agreed, what you mention is no crap (except for Lost…). Still, one has to be very, very carefull nowadays not to record crap…

[Steve Bosell]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

Yes. I never do quick on and off's with it. If I want visuals well the 360 does it better than anything else or I can look at my computer.

Anyway, i am not saying Apple shouldn't add visualizers but it is a bit silly to skip it just for that.

I have the xbox media center that is much better than the media functions of the 360, and like I said, I use it primarily for listening to music. You should check out milkdrop, is is awesome, no need to blaze up.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Calimus 

Perhaps. If you consider Simpsons, PBS shows(Nova, Frontline), That 70's show, Frasier, Heroes, Lost, etc. to be crap.

Simpsons and 'That 70s show' are utter crap. Along with any Family Guy (or related) cartoons.

Fraser, Heroes, Lost, Dexter, Arrested Development et al are good shows.

V

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Simpsons and 'That 70s show' are utter crap. Along with any Family Guy (or related) cartoons.

One man's trash is another man's treasure.

[Dark Helmet]

Can I get this Milkdrop on a Mac?

[Calimus]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

Can I get this Milkdrop on a Mac?

Haven't tried this myself, just came across it after readying about Milkdrop from the earlier posts.

projectM

[willed]

Ironically in the UK, the Apple website is using the same tagline as the US one: "If it's on iTunes, it's on Apple TV"

Well that's lovely, but there are no TV shows or movies on iTunes UK!

No point in buying this thing, especially in the UK.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by Calimus 

Haven't tried this myself, just came across it after readying about Milkdrop from the earlier posts.

projectM

It sucks. I tried it many times. It's nothing like Milkdrop, even htough it is supposed to be.

[macintologist]

Sorry if this is offtopic, but speaking of Apple TV not being a DVR. I did a quick google search and there is not a single DVR on the market it seems that does not require a monthly subscription. I was really suprised by that, given the fact that it would be so easy to cut into Tivo's market by simply offering a non-subscription DVR.

[slugslugslug]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

Sorry if this is offtopic, but speaking of Apple TV not being a DVR. I did a quick google search and there is not a single DVR on the market it seems that does not require a monthly subscription. I was really suprised by that, given the fact that it would be so easy to cut into Tivo's market by simply offering a non-subscription DVR.

Are you talking just set-top boxes here? Because I was under the impression that all the computer add-ons that record TV (eyeTV, MythTV, etc.) eschew the subscription model.

Of course, they can cost a lot up front, since you essentially need to dedicate a whole computer to your telly, but I imagine people are managing with older generic PCs running Linux.

[macintologist]

Originally Posted by slugslugslug 

Are you talking just set-top boxes here? Because I was under the impression that all the computer add-ons that record TV (eyeTV, MythTV, etc.) eschew the subscription model.

Of course, they can cost a lot up front, since you essentially need to dedicate a whole computer to your telly, but I imagine people are managing with older generic PCs running Linux.

Oh yea, a commputer thats something completely different. I'm a big EyeTV fan. But I mean just a dedicated set-top box like you said. Is there some unwritten rule that DVRs MUST be subscription-based??

[Calimus]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

Oh yea, a commputer thats something completely different. I'm a big EyeTV fan. But I mean just a dedicated set-top box like you said. Is there some unwritten rule that DVRs MUST be subscription-based??

The problem comes in getting the listings. There are a few free services that you can get listings from, Zap2it is the one I use on my dvr box. Tivo, ReplayTV, etc all have their own. I suppose a set top box company could just use one of the free listing services, but many of them require the end user to answer a survey every 6 months to continue getting free listings downloads.

After all a dedicated set-top box really is just a computer that is limited only by the software installed. There are a number of cases you can buy, and even pre built MythTV boxes that are as small as a Tivo, just as quiet, but have no monthly service. In the end it all comes down to ease of use. Tivo offers things that the free services can't(recommendations, better UI).