[clarkgoble]

The above was at a graveyard for British defenders in France.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2003150899,00.html

The fact they included swasticas makes you think...hmm...we saved their ass why?

Even worse. A new survey shows that 1 in 3 French want Sadaam to win.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...631671,00.html

[Kitschy]

Extremely sad.

[Mastrap]

Morons.

Oh, and the swastika is the wrong way round.

[Kitschy]

Originally posted by Mastrap:
Morons.

Oh, and the swastika is the wrong way round.

Hmm...I thought it means something different depending on which way it goes. I remember hearing that...

I dunno.

[clarkgoble]

The Germans had it the wrong way. It is an old sanskrit symbol. Ironically you can actually find it on some ancient Jewish synagogues. Unfortunately because of its association with the Nazis (who, as I mentioned, had it backwards) it has forever been tainted. Sort of like inverted pentagrams which used to be a common Christian symbol until it became associated with Satanism in the late 19th century.


http://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~preety/history/swastika.html

Its actually a very common symbol. In its connection to gammadia it was significant in Judaism and especially early Christianity.

[Ver de Terre]

Originally posted by Kitschy:
Hmm...I thought it means something different depending on which way it goes. I remember hearing that...

I dunno.

The original Sanskrit word/symbol means "good luck." It hasn't completely fallen into disrepute in Asia, where it has retained its that meaning. Of course, there was a minor uproar when a Pokeman trading card with the symbol hit the U.S. The ancient Romans were also fond of it.

It took truly disgusting minds to adopt as their sign a backwards symbol for good luck. I'd say that's a good sign they knew they were evil.

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by clarkgoble:
The Germans had it the wrong way. It is an old sanskrit symbol. Ironically you can actually find it on some ancient Jewish synagogues. Unfortunately because of its association with the Nazis (who, as I mentioned, had it backwards) it has forever been tainted. Sort of like inverted pentagrams which used to be a common Christian symbol until it became associated with Satanism in the late 19th century.


http://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~preety/history/swastika.html

Its actually a very common symbol. In its connection to gammadia it was significant in Judaism and especially early Christianity.

Sorry, yes, I am aware of the history of the swastika.

What I meant to say is that they've got it the wrong way round when trying to imply that Bush and Blair have extreme right wing tendencies.

[clarkgoble]

What I meant to say is that they've got it the wrong way round when trying to imply that Bush and Blair have extreme right wing tendencies.

Not only that but they have terrible penmanship.

[Kitschy]

Heh...musta ran outta spray paint cuz it's missin a leg.

[Morpheus X]

Its a disgusting thing to do, even if you are against this war and think of Bush and Blair that way you should atleast have respect for the dead!

Even though i dont think the french need to be grateful to the US atleast not more than the US should be to the french.

[Troll]

Originally posted by Morpheus X:
Its a disgusting thing to do, even if you are against this war and think of Bush and Blair that way you should atleast have respect for the dead!

I think 99% of French people would agree with you there.

"Saddam will win and make your blood run," "Death to Yankees," "Exhume your rubbish, it soils our land." That doesn't represent the average Frenchman's sentiments at all. This is an isolated act of vandalism. It's disgusting, but I wouldn't read too much into it.

[Timo]

I see the spelling of "rosbeefs" has improved...I thought it used to be "rosbifs." And they say our civilization is in decline...

[Morpheus X]

Originally posted by Timo:
I see the spelling of "rosbeefs" has improved...I thought it used to be "rosbifs." And they say our civilization is in decline...

Like Troll pointed out this is not a statement by the people of france but a stupid act by a few fanatic brainless ***holes and you shouldnt judge a country because of an disgusting act by a few fanatics.

[SimeyTheLimey]

I don't speak French* (unpardonable though that is). Could someone explain what the grafitti says about Saddam?


* Or rather, I speak O'Level French. As "Let's Parlez Franglais" once put it: ne persons pas parlez O'Level French.

[Morpheus X]

Originally posted by Troll:
I think 99% of French people would agree with you there.

"Saddam will win and make your blood run," "Death to Yankees," "Exhume your rubbish, it soils our land." That doesn't represent the average Frenchman's sentiments at all. This is an isolated act of vandalism. It's disgusting, but I wouldn't read too much into it.

[Timo]

Originally posted by Morpheus X:
Like Troll pointed out this is not a statement by the people of france but a stupid act by a few fanatic brainless ***holes and you shouldnt judge a country because of an disgusting act by a few fanatics.

Eaaassy there, Morpheus, friend, ("Gruss Got") consider your source. Notice I wrote "our" civilization, not "their" civilization. Of course this was the uninspired work of some wackos and only a fool would mistake vandalism for the zeitgeist (such that there is such a thing) of the nation.

FWIW the sentiment I saw in Paris last week more resembled the sentiment I see here in New York, among my colleagues: What Price War?

[Morpheus X]

Originally posted by Timo:
And they say our civilization is in decline...

That sentence gave me the impression you meant their civilisation is in decline and thats why i reacted on it. I guess i misunderstood.

[Timo]

Originally posted by Morpheus X:
That sentence gave me the impression you meant their civilisation is in decline and thats why i reacted on it. I guess i misunderstood.

Our civilization: in the West. It wasn't a very good joke anyway.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally posted by Troll:
I think 99% of French people would agree with you there.

"Saddam will win and make your blood run," "Death to Yankees," "Exhume your rubbish, it soils our land." That doesn't represent the average Frenchman's sentiments at all. This is an isolated act of vandalism. It's disgusting, but I wouldn't read too much into it.

It is discusting. And I would guess that most people in France would agree that it goes to far.

However, according to this one third of all French surveyed want Saddam to win...

[Troll]

Ah, forgot to translate the bit on the far right:

"Bush, Blair to the War Crimes Tribunal."

That's almost funny! All of these violent, racist comments and then a call for justice before the WCT!

[theolein]

I think France should be bombed after Iraq is finished. The survivors should be put up against the wall and shot. That'll teach them for speaking another language and voting for Clinton.

[Sven G]

Anyway, rosbifs is just too funny...

Vive l'ordinateur!

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by davesimondotcom:
However, according to this one third of all French surveyed want Saddam to win...

Pathetic indeed.

[Troll]

Originally posted by davesimondotcom:
It is discusting. And I would guess that most people in France would agree that it goes to far.

However, according to this one third of all French surveyed want Saddam to win...

I'm not sure that article is accurate. I recall seeing the "sondage" and the question posed as I recall was "Do you want the Iraqis to win or the Americans to win." I don't recall Saddam being named. I think the Iraqi people are seen by the French not only as victims (of both their situation and the American soldiers that are killing them) but as underdogs.

[clarkgoble]

I recall seeing the "sondage" and the question posed as I recall was "Do you want the Iraqis to win or the Americans to win." I don't recall Saddam being named.

Sort of like those folks who weren't fans of Hitler or the Nazis but still wanted the Germans to win over France.

[theolein]

Originally posted by clarkgoble:
I recall seeing the "sondage" and the question posed as I recall was "Do you want the Iraqis to win or the Americans to win." I don't recall Saddam being named.

Sort of like those folks who weren't fans of Hitler or the Nazis but still wanted the Germans to win over France.

Are you trying to impress with your knowledge of history and famous persons? I don't know if you're talking about the Vichy governemnt under Field Marshall Petin or the collaborators, most of whom were tried and executed after the war, with the notable exception of Fran�ois Mitterand.

[swsteckly]

The fact they included swasticas makes you think...hmm...we saved their ass why?

Comments like this make me wonder why France saved your ass in the American Revolution.... why?

Sadly, most Americans seem to be able to only see one side... theirs.

[BkueKanoodle]

Umm France saved our Ass's in the Revolution because they wanted to take away from the glory of the british empire, their biggest "enemy" at the time.

Wait a second, that kind of sounds like what they were complaining about the US doing in the Middle east, or even worse, working for, "regime change"

The US on the other hand saved their ass's during WWII to save them from the brutal occupation by an invading country that was recognized by most the world as evil, and was intent on exterminaiting the jewish race and ruling all of europe.

And yes I thank the french for heliping us during the revolution 200 years, ago, but WWII is still fresh enough in the sands of American and French history, that it takes on more relevance to our current diplomatic situation then events 2 centuries ago.

[3gg3]

Originally posted by Mastrap:
Morons.

Oh, and the swastika is the wrong way round.

Appears as normal when driving on the left.
Ambidexterous interpretation welcome

[Morpheus X]

Originally posted by BkueKanoodle:
Umm France saved our Ass's in the Revolution because they wanted to take away from the glory of the british empire, their biggest "enemy" at the time.

Wait a second, that kind of sounds like what they were complaining about the US doing in the Middle east, or even worse, working for, "regime change"

The US on the other hand saved their ass's during WWII to save them from the brutal occupation by an invading country that was recognized by most the world as evil, and was intent on exterminaiting the jewish race and ruling all of europe.

And yes I thank the french for heliping us during the revolution 200 years, ago, but WWII is still fresh enough in the sands of American and French history, that it takes on more relevance to our current diplomatic situation then events 2 centuries ago.

So that means France should always do what America demands of them? Is that why you helped them to maintain a free democratic country, so you can take that freedom away from them yourself?

Friendship between countries is the same as the friendship between friends. Do you always expect blind loyalty from your friends even though they think its completely wrong what you are doing? Dont you expect from them to stop you if they think you make a terrible mistake? I rather have friends that dont kiss my **s all the time but have their own opinion and i give them every right to speak for themself and to tell me honestly without fear of losing my friendship their opinion. Friends should have the right to have another opinion and to act accordingly. Friends that only do as you say are not real friends! Thats my opinion!

[BkueKanoodle]

No friends should not expect blind loyalty, but a "friend" should have a friends back in the time of need. Friends have a common goal and interest. Friends don't make deals behind the backs of their friends for their own gain.

This isn't like some stupid argument between friends over 5 bucks. The french have chosen to side with an an Evil, brutal dictator to protect their own financial interests. To say weapons inspections were working is a joke. They had 12 years.

Meanwhile the french and the french companies are lining up to profit off of iraq througout the 90's, all the while not only were they whining how sanction were not working, they were working to undermine them. How are they supposed to work that way?

With friends like that, we don't need enemies.

[simonjames]

Blue - you have links to backup these claims? As much as I'd like to believe you I prefer to see with my own eyes.

[Morpheus X]

Originally posted by BkueKanoodle:
No friends should not expect blind loyalty, but a "friend" should have a friends back in the time of need. Friends have a common goal and interest. Friends don't make deals behind the backs of their friends for their own gain.

This isn't like some stupid argument between friends over 5 bucks. The french have chosen to side with an an Evil, brutal dictator to protect their own financial interests. To say weapons inspections were working is a joke. They had 12 years.

Meanwhile the french and the french companies are lining up to profit off of iraq througout the 90's, all the while not only were they whining how sanction were not working, they were working to undermine them. How are they supposed to work that way?

With friends like that, we don't need enemies.

France is on the side of Saddam? Sorry but now i cant take you serious anymore!

To say weapons inspections were working is a joke? Even Blix said that there was progress.

And to your last statement:

http://www.gulfwarvets.com/aiding.htm

And to make sure every country is involved i just found this:

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarti...15&ItemID=2766

This shows that there is a differents between companies involved with Iraq and government involved with Iraq!

Since its a proven fact that IBM was involved making business with "The third Reich" during WWII and i dont think the US Government was on Hitlers side!

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by BkueKanoodle:
No friends should not expect blind loyalty, but a "friend" should have a friends back in the time of need. Friends have a common goal and interest. Friends don't make deals behind the backs of their friends for their own gain.

This isn't like some stupid argument between friends over 5 bucks. The french have chosen to side with an an Evil, brutal dictator to protect their own financial interests.

[snip]

With friends like that, we don't need enemies.

When will the likes of you learn that "If you're not with us, you're against us" only works in the sandbox and in Westerns (just a bigger sandbox really).

It's a friend's duty to let you know if they think you're doing something incredibly stupid.

And you can bet your ass that once this war is over - whenever that may be - france and Germany will be among the first to deal with the mess you leave behind. Just like in Afghanistan.

-s*

[theolein]

Originally posted by BkueKanoodle:
Umm France saved our Ass's in the Revolution because they wanted to take away from the glory of the british empire, their biggest "enemy" at the time.

Wait a second, that kind of sounds like what they were complaining about the US doing in the Middle east, or even worse, working for, "regime change"

The US on the other hand saved their ass's during WWII to save them from the brutal occupation by an invading country that was recognized by most the world as evil, and was intent on exterminaiting the jewish race and ruling all of europe.

And yes I thank the french for heliping us during the revolution 200 years, ago, but WWII is still fresh enough in the sands of American and French history, that it takes on more relevance to our current diplomatic situation then events 2 centuries ago.

I posted this in another thread. I'll post it agains so our friend who likes calling people a**holes:

What makes me wonder is that America media (and a fair amount of you here as well, it seems) forget so quickly, and above all so selctively. No one here seems to remember the response NATO made to the attacks on 9/11. They invoked the article on an attack on a member country for the first time. Hosts of nations supported the American "war on terror". America's favourite whipping boy, France, sent an Aircraft carrier to take part in attacks on Afghanistan, French planes are based in Kyrgyzstan to this day that participated in that conflict. There are units French soldiers that do duty in the international force north of Kabul. French soldiers and their Airforce were in every conflict from the first Gulf War to Bosnia and Kosovo. Obviously, they regarded those conflicts as justified. French UN peacekeeping units in Bosnia were the only ones to actually do their duty and defend the areas assigned to them from Bosnian Serbs. 78 French soldiers lost their lives there. The Dutch, in Srebrenica didn't even try to prevent the massacre there, yet no one makes jokes about Dutch soldiers surrendering quicker than you can say, "Hands up".

Every one here gets on their high horse about how ungrateful France is for the US/UK liberating it from the Germans 59 years ago. Isn't it amazing how conveniently an entire country with such an enlightened media and population, such as yours, remember those facts from all that way back, yet nothing since? Isn't it amazing how one can attribute other nations getting in the way of "American sovereignty" and "American self defense", when a really large number of people and nations simply have seen no proof of the threat to the USA from Iraq apart from some American politicians saying so?

If your country decided that no one has the right to privacy any more, or for a more realistic exmaple, if your government decided to ban private posession of firearms, because the politicians in Washington say it is a "threat to our nation", what would the resulting protests look like? Would everyone suddenly believe what the government is saying or would there be large protests?

Other nations and medias (not only European, take a look at the Time of India) do not see the war in Iraq as being anywhere close to American self defense. This war affects everyone here and across the globe. It is messing badly with our economies and many people are worried about the future, because they see Islamic terrorism being on the rise, and unrest in our large Muslim minorities, which are a part of our populations. They are highly sceptical of what this war will achive in the long run. It is their right, as, believe it or not, they also have and know the concept of sovereignty.

I'm not pro Chirac as I think he's an egoistic bastard who's in it for the money and prestige, but neither would I trust many other politicians who are so keen on wasting blue eyed boys and girls lives in a conflict of dubious purpose.

[clarkgoble]

Every one here gets on their high horse about how ungrateful France is for the US/UK liberating it from the Germans 59 years ago. Isn't it amazing how conveniently an entire country with such an enlightened media and population, such as yours, remember those facts from all that way back, yet nothing since?

Not true. We remember DeGaulle as well. <grin>

[theolein]

Originally posted by clarkgoble:
Every one here gets on their high horse about how ungrateful France is for the US/UK liberating it from the Germans 59 years ago. Isn't it amazing how conveniently an entire country with such an enlightened media and population, such as yours, remember those facts from all that way back, yet nothing since?

Not true. We remember DeGaulle as well. <grin>

That was actually a good one.

[itai195]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:

And you can bet your ass that once this war is over - whenever that may be - france and Germany will be among the first to deal with the mess you leave behind. Just like in Afghanistan.

-s*

Won't that be nice! We've dealt with a few messes France has left over (eg Vietnam, Panama), this is a welcome change of pace.

[clarkgoble]

Have the French finished cleaning up Algeria?

http://www.hrw.org/press/2001/05/france-0516.htm

[clarkgoble]

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/fralgier.htm

[Morpheus X]

Originally posted by itai195:
Won't that be nice! We've dealt with a few messes France has left over (eg Vietnam, Panama), this is a welcome change of pace.

LOL now i cant take you serious anymore! You were in Vietnam for your own interest!

[itai195]

Originally posted by Morpheus X:
LOL now i cant take you serious anymore! You were in Vietnam for your own interest!

From "The American Age" by Walter LaFeber, one of the formost experts in US Foreign Policy:

... the French had to be helped in Asia or they would be even weaker and less cooperative partners in western Europe. The United States poured over $4 billion into the French attempt to defeat Ho between 1950 and 1954. The money did little good. Neither French arms nor French-controlled Vietnamese governments could stop the revolution. During early 1954, France's commander decided to fight a climactic battle at Dien Bien Phu, near the northern Vietnamese border. It was one of the great errors of twentieth-century military history. The French garrison occupied the bottom of a valley while Ho's Viet-minh armies bombarded the garrison by moving artillery to the heights -- a feat the French did not think the shabby-looking Communist army could pull off.

Eisenhower privately called the French "a hopeless, helpless mass of protoplasm." Dulles, nevertheless, warned publicly in late March 1954 that Vietnam had to be saved even if it "might involve serious risks." He and Eisenhower secretly spelled out those risks in early April, when the president asked congressional leaders for authority to use, if necessary, U.S. forces to save the French position. Led by Democratic Senator Lyndon Johnson from Texas, the congressmen refused to go along unless the British also joined. They warned that there must be "no more Koreas with the United States furnishing 90 percent of the manpower." Prime Minister Churchill, who considered the French effort a lost cause, flatly rejected any plan for intervention.

And it goes on... Additionally, the French broke an agreement in 1946 to allow Vietnamese autonomy. They then broke a later agreement to provide political freedom to the Vietnamese when they attacked Hai Phong Harbor.

Additionally, about 70% of the 16,000 French troops at Dien Bien Phu were either Vietnamese or were French Foreign Legion (eg former Nazis).

Yes the United States had interests in Vietnam, but it's quite clear that our involvement, at least initially, was an attempt to mop up France's mess.

[Sarah31]

of course this is a disgusting act but i take offense to the british claiming that it is a desicration of only their war dead. both of those articles in the original link fail to mention the 1100 canadian souls that are at rest there.

but since canada does not support this war i suppose our dead were not worth mention. despite canada's stand it is unfair to those men lying in those graves to forget their ultimate sacrifice.

just my 2 cents

[itai195]

Originally posted by Sarah31:
of course this is a disgusting act but i take offense to the british claiming that it is a desicration of only their war dead. both of those articles in the original link fail to mention the 1100 canadian souls that are at rest there.

but since canada does not support this war i suppose our dead were not worth mention. despite canada's stand it is unfair to those men lying in those graves to forget their ultimate sacrifice.

just my 2 cents

Perhaps you will prefer this article, which mentions the Canadians and Australians buried there: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/02/in...pe/02GRAV.html

[BkueKanoodle]

Originally posted by Morpheus X:


This shows that there is a differents between companies involved with Iraq and government involved with Iraq!

Since its a proven fact that IBM was involved making business with "The third Reich" during WWII and i dont think the US Government was on Hitlers side!

This argument is totally garbage, as the french government could stop these countries from doing business. and the french government is the one whining to get the sanctions lifted so the french oil companies can put the contracts they already have signed with iraq into effect.

Further more if you want to place a distinction between government and companies, how can you say the US is in this for oil money? After all there is a difference between companies and government, at least according to you.

For informationon how french and russian oil companies pushed heavily on goverment to stall at the UN, see

http://usainreview.com/1_21_Security_Council.htm

Cronyism exists on both sides of the Atlantic



It also helps to know that while IBM did help the nazi's it was IBM's maneuvering and scheming to hide this fact from the US govermentthat allowed this to happen. Their were numerous investigations on this at the time, and it was only later that IBM was forced to admit that they were invovled with Germany.

http://www.acsa2000.net/ibm_and_hitler.htm

Not like today where the companies are blatantly trying to get a piece of the oil pie and keep saddam in power.

[Sarah31]

Originally posted by itai195:
Perhaps you will prefer this article, which mentions the Canadians and Australians buried there: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/02/in...pe/02GRAV.html

heh. i would have to create an account to read that link. but i will take your word and in fact i do appreciate it. all my feelings on this war aside the initial articles posted made me sad because this is a disgusting crime committed on all those individuals of all nationalities in that cemetery.

my hope is that the individuals are caught and are punished. i also hope that the french government will apologize for this act on behalf of their people who owe those men their freedom.

thanks for posting your link. truly.

[Troll]

My understanding of the contracts situation is that US companies tendered for all of those contracts but didn't get them because their quotes were less competitive. Of course, there were political concerns too. The US was more active in Gulf War I and the Europeans are probably better acquainted with the view from under the table, but it's not for want of trying that US companies didn't get those contracts.

To go back to this:

The US on the other hand saved their ass's during WWII to save them from the brutal occupation by an invading country that was recognized by most the world as evil, and was intent on exterminaiting the jewish race and ruling all of europe.

If that were the case, why did it take the US so long to get involved? And why did they only react after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour. Please, they got involved because they realised they were next! Another example of the selective memory Theolein was referring to!

[simonjames]

considering the use of the swastika (reversed or otherwise) you get no prize for guessing the group of people who did the graffiti - neo nazi morons

What they did was extremely wrong and they should hang by their balls for doing it

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by simonjames:
considering the use of the swastika (reversed or otherwise) you get no prize for guessing the group of people who did the graffiti - neo nazi morons

What they did was extremely wrong and they should hang by their balls for doing it

Actually, I doubt that. My guess is that they were just calling Bush and Blair Nazis. Not that that makes it any better of course.

[calamar1]

"Mort aux Yankees"

That means "Yankees Suck", right?

Aha! The French are Red Sox fans! i knew there was a reason i liked 'em!