[derekn]

Hey all,
I have a beige G3, Rev 2 ROM. I'm thinking of throwing a USB card into a PCI slot and getting a USB keyboard and mouse.

As I understand it, starting up using the power key on the keyboard won't work with a USB keyboard through the PCI card. What about extensions off, holding down the option key when I don't want to boot into the OS X PB etc? Has anyone else given this type of setup a try?

I'd really appreciate any responses, thanks a lot.

[Allah]

I have a G4 AGP and am using a USB to ADB dongle to use my favourite keyboard and mouse. I can startup from the keyboard but I cannot rebuild my desktop. I can invoke the Extensions Manager but not extension off at startup.
Hope this gives you some insight

[blizzard]

I also have a Beige G3 with a USB card in one of the PCI slots. The problem is that the OS has to load drivers for the USB card to work, and of course it can't do that if the computer isn't running. So, none of the USB devices work until about halfway into the boot process when the drivers are finally loaded. So no, in a nutshell, you won't be able to boot using the power key on the USB keyboard. Holding down the Shift or Option keys also shouldn't work, as those are supposed to have their little effects happen before any of the extensions and whatnot are loaded.You should still be able to rebuild the desktop using the new keyboard, because that happens after the computer is done booting.

That said, if you keep your old keyboard around, whenever you want to hold down either the Shift or Option keys for any reason, you can just plug it in and hit the required key combination and then unplug it and move on with life.

Hope this helps.

Blizzard.

[This message has been edited by blizzard (edited 02-03-2001).]

[derekn]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by blizzard:
[B]I also have a Beige G3 with a USB card in one of the PCI slots. The problem is that the OS has to load drivers for the USB card to work, and of course it can't do that if the computer isn't running. So, none of the USB devices work until about halfway into the boot process when the drivers are finally loaded. So no, in a nutshell, you won't be able to boot using the power key on the USB keyboard. Holding down the Shift or Option keys also shouldn't work, as those are supposed to have their little effects happen before any of the extensions and whatnot are loaded.You should still be able to rebuild the desktop using the new keyboard, because that happens after the computer is done booting.

That said, if you keep your old keyboard around, whenever you want to hold down either the Shift or Option keys for any reason, you can just plug it in and hit the required key combination and then unplug it and move on with life.

Hope this helps.

Blizzard.


Thanks Blizzard, that's just the info I needed. Out of curiosity, have you tried to just leave an ADB keyboard plugged in while the USB keyboard is also plugged in?

Thanks again for the info.

[blizzard]

I bought my USB card so that I could attach a two-button mouse to my computer, so no, I have never tried it with two keyboards at once. However, I did have the two mice - ADB and USB - plugged in at the same time, and both worked perfectly for the short time before I retired the ADB mouse. So I can only assume that the keyboards should work the same way.

Maybe you can just keep the ADB keyboard plugged in but tuck it away in a drawer somewhere. It's worth a shot. Let us know how it goes.

Blizzard.

[derekn]

Originally posted by blizzard:
I bought my USB card so that I could attach a two-button mouse to my computer, so no, I have never tried it with two keyboards at once. However, I did have the two mice - ADB and USB - plugged in at the same time, and both worked perfectly for the short time before I retired the ADB mouse. So I can only assume that the keyboards should work the same way.

Maybe you can just keep the ADB keyboard plugged in but tuck it away in a drawer somewhere. It's worth a shot. Let us know how it goes.

Blizzard.

Yeah that's what I was thinking, just leave it plugged in for extensions off startups etc. If all goes as planned I should be ordering on Monday or Tuesday. I'll keep you updated.

Do you know if there is varying quality from one USB card to another? I'm thinking of a PCI card from a company called Aten (www.aten-usa.com). It's a no name I've never heard of but it's only $29.95, most of the others are in the $40-$50 range. I know it's supported by the Apple drivers, there is a link to them on the web site.

Thanks for all the help.

[This message has been edited by derekn (edited 02-04-2001).]

[blizzard]

I'm not aware of problems concerning the quality of various USB cards related to their cost. I too just bought the cheapest one possible, and while I haven't had any problems with it so far, I also haven't been using it for that long. I'd just try out the Aten card and see what it brings you. I'm using a card from a company called StarTech, by the way.

Blizzard.

[petek]

Just a caution about swapping keyboards during boot: ADB wasn't intended to be hot-swappable, and the conventional wisdom is don't unplug or plug in ADB while power is on. It may work, but then again it can cause spikes which could hang the system or at worst blow interface chips...

[derekn]

Okay thanks Blizzard. Sorry about all the questions, just a couple more.

Does the USB software work okay through the PCI card? Also, did you experience any problems installing the card? I've heard that PCI cards can be a bit picky about what slot their in etc.

Pete thanks for the note. I saw the TIL article on ADB not being hot swappable. I was planning on just leaving the keyboard plugged in all the time and leaving it that way in case I need to do an extensions off startup.

[Scotttheking]

I've got a USB and an ADB keyboard.
Both are plugged in, both work fine.

[olePigeon]

Just a tip for your USB card. Don't get ripped off! I bought an Entrega USB card for my G3 and they only had a 2 port version for Mac. I went over the PC section, grabbed their 4-port that was "Windows only," stuck it in my Mac, downloaded the USB Card Support driviers, and it works perfectly.

I am with Scott. I have a G4/400 and had at one time both an ADB keyboard and USB keyboard plugged in at the same time. It's kind of cool to type on two keyboards at one time (it's like the old "Bat" keyboards).

Joe

[-Q-]

You do have to be careful what USB card you buy. I bought a generic CompUSA four port PCI card for my beige G3 and it ended up not working b/c it wasn't compliant with Apple's implementation of the USB standard (so the Apple driver's wouldn't recognize the card).

I ended up with a Belkin card that has been working great.

Q

[cygnusx1]

if you're going to buy the belkin quadrabus card, be sure you realize on your beige G3 mobo that only the bottom port will work, not all 4. that requires at least a new world mobo like the b&w G3 or G4.

[This message has been edited by cygnusx1 (edited 02-05-2001).]

[derekn]

Everyone thanks for your help, Blizzard, Allah, Pete, Scott, OlePigeon, joe@cc, Q, Cygnusx, everyone, I really appreciate it.

Q thanks for the tip, I was thinking of that Aten card or MicroConnectors, but I'm leaning more towards Belkin now. They have a warehouse or something right down the street from where I live so they are kind of the "home" compamy for me.

[MacNN Staff]

crappyg3
New Member


Posts: 3
From: illinois
Registered: Feb 2001 posted 02-06-2001 08:34 AM ��� ���� �� ��
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last month I purchased a $30 Belkin 2-port USB card for my beige G3/266. After I downloaded the software
from Apple all works well. I have an Agfa scanner and an Epson printer hooked up.

Can you return it for a different brand?

Joe
I purchased the smae belkin 2 port usb card and its not working, somehow i get the the feeling that either the motherboard is fried, pci slots are dead, or the actaul usb card is messed up. Its a $30 usb 2-port belkin from the local CompUsa.

Hi, all. Not sure if this would be a "new" topic, but have any of you used a FireWire/USB combo PCI card? If I'm going to add life to my old beige G3, I want to be able to use both.
Any experiences using iMovie with a PCI FireWire card, anyone?

A friend purchased the Belkin card as part of an upgrade to a 9600/300 (G3 card, etc) and is having probs with it - the PCI slots on the 9600 *may* not be compatible with the 2.1 standard that the USB card wants to be able to work correctly. I haven't heard the last of the story, but will post when he has a solution to it.

[Lint]

I have a belkin usb card in my gossamer (beige) g3 and when i go inside to move cards around i have noticed that the usb doenst want to work sometimes. However lasttime i was in ther and having problems i decided to pressed the CUDA MB reset button and all was well. i suggest you give it a shot

Just wanted to let you guys know I also have a Beige g3 with a USB PCI card. It's funny, because before the system boots, it reads what is in the PCI slots, so the USB card gets recognized and I can use my USB logitech optical mouse, it moves around, etc. But as people have already commented, the keyboard won't work when trying to turn extensions off. I have an ADB keyboard with an ADB mouse plugged in, hidding under the desk whenever the system hangs, but the USB keyboard and mouse are used for daily use. However, sometimes my mouse just will just stop working. The pointer will freeze on screen, even though the system didn't crash. Unplugging it and then replugging it in usually works, though it's a pain sometimes and doesn't work all the time either. This happened frequently with the Microsoft Intellimouse Explorer. I'd be playing an input sprocket game like UT or just moving my mouse around my screen and the mouse would just stop working. The mouse was connected to the USB keyboard which in turn was connected to the pci card. Since I switched mouses, this hardly happens but buyer beware, USB PCI cards are far from perfect compared to on-board USB support. But for people who don't have the cash for a new system, they are competent for the average user. Sorry for ranting but hope this helps someone

Originally posted by alex l-r:
Just wanted to let you guys know I also have a Beige g3 with a USB PCI card. It's funny, because before the system boots, it reads what is in the PCI slots, so the USB card gets recognized and I can use my USB logitech optical mouse, it moves around, etc. But as people have already commented, the keyboard won't work when trying to turn extensions off. I have an ADB keyboard with an ADB mouse plugged in, hidding under the desk whenever the system hangs, but the USB keyboard and mouse are used for daily use. However, sometimes my mouse just will just stop working. The pointer will freeze on screen, even though the system didn't crash. Unplugging it and then replugging it in usually works, though it's a pain sometimes and doesn't work all the time either. This happened frequently with the Microsoft Intellimouse Explorer. I'd be playing an input sprocket game like UT or just moving my mouse around my screen and the mouse would just stop working. The mouse was connected to the USB keyboard which in turn was connected to the pci card. Since I switched mouses, this hardly happens but buyer beware, USB PCI cards are far from perfect compared to on-board USB support. But for people who don't have the cash for a new system, they are competent for the average user. Sorry for ranting but hope this helps someone

This happens on my b/w G3 with the MacAlly isweetnet mouse and keyboard. really irritating...I am pretty sure it must be a driver conflict. doesn't seem to have a pattern.

I also could not get a PCI USB card to work in my Umax C600x it would crash on startup while loading the Apple USB drivers, tried two different cards that both worked in my 7500...weird.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by fergsta:
[B] This happens on my b/w G3 with the MacAlly isweetnet mouse and keyboard. really irritating...I am pretty sure it must be a driver conflict. doesn't seem to have a pattern.


The mouse dropping the connection that is...sorry I was a little unclear in my post

[PISCorp]

Strangely enough, if I hold down the
Shift key on start-up on my ADB keyboard,
I'm still able to use my USB XLR8 mouse.

My Macally PCI USB card loads around the
same time as the Extension Manager loads,
so it's possible to use the EM, if I hold down
the Spacebar during start-up.

There is a lot of good info in this thread of messages.... but there is also some poor advice being shared. We've been selling PCI USB cards for more than 2 years now. I'd like to clear up a few points:

When buying a PCI USB card for a Mac, it must be an OHCI card. (There is an alternative form of USB technology called UHCI.) All of the 2 port OHCI cards will work on a Mac.

The 4 port cards are not so simple. The first 4 port cards simply put a USB hub chip onto a PCI card. Entrega was the first to do this. These cards will work fine on a Mac.

The latest generation of 4 port USB cards use a new chip from Lucent. This chip will not work on older Macs (pre-USB Macs). (As some messages in this thread have reported, one port may work.) The nice thing about this card is that each port has its own 12 Mbps bandwidth. On previous 2 port and 4 port cards, the ports shared a single 12 Mbps bus.

Bottom line, most cards will work in a Mac. What you get from companies like Keyspan is a 5 year warranty and knowledgable tech support. With OS X lurking around the corner, you may want to work with a company that really understands the Mac.

All,

We have several Beige G3's with PCI USB cards.

1. Remember, if you boot from a System CD, your USB keyboard and mouse may not work as the needed drivers may not be available.

2. We keep the ADB mouse plugged into the ADB keyboard and then tuck the keyboard/mouse behind the CPU. It pretty much just collects dust but it's always available.

3. Don't plug/unplug ADB devices when the CPU is running. Bad things can happen.

4. There is a USB standard that Apple adhears to (host controller OHCI) but some card manufactures do not (host controller UHCI vs OHCI). An example is the "El Cheapo" CompUSA usb/pci cards that don't work in Macs or even some PC's.

5. Many cards share the USB 1.1 12Mbit bandwidth across their ports. Some USB devices will take up nearly the entire 12Mbit/sec bandwith of the card on one port, USB hard drives, CD-RWs, etc.

6. Most cards provide 500mA per port.

We have had good luck with both Entrega and Belkin cards.

Hi,

I have a beige G3 with an Orange Micro USB/Firewire card. It works fine with USB mice, but it won't work with my CanoScan USB scanner. There is communication, because the button on the scanner does launch Canon's basic software. But when I try to do anything, I just get a clueless error message that the driver couldn't be found. Apparently Canon's driver is returning an error. Different applications (e.g. PhotoShop) give different error messages.

I thought it might be a problem with the power drawn from the USB port, so I tried a powered USB hub. This made no difference at all. The exact same setup works fine with my iBook, using the builtin USB port.

Canon's tech support refuses to help with an add-on card, and Orange Micro's tech support is impossible to reach (I'm still trying). Any suggestions?

[instigator]

Here's a tip: Insert a space in front of all your USB card extensions and driver's names. This will force the USB card to become active earlier in the startup process. I'm still not, however, able to force quit using my Pro Keyboard

Marc

[derekn]

Wow thanks for all the info everyone, especially to Mike.

I wanted everyones opinion on this, would it be best to get a USB card now, or wait until X arrives? I know it's pretty much guaranteed that a USB card will work but is it worth the risk?

Thanks again.

Originally posted by derekn:
I wanted everyones opinion on this, would it be best to get a USB card now, or wait until X arrives? I know it's pretty much guaranteed that a USB card will work but is it worth the risk?

At $30, there's not much of a risk. If you need USB support now, just get the card. You can always sell it on eBay for $15 if it turns out you need a new card. Besides, pre-USB Macs are less likely to be OS X compatible, anyway.

[blizzard]

Just to stick another two cents in here, I am having absolutely no problems with Mac OS X Public Beta and my USB card - indeed, I was pleasantly surprised when I first booted with OS X to find that the USB devices were all supported by the system, no modification needed. Only in a Mac...

So, I wouldn't sweat OS X too much. As someone else said, you could always just sell the broken card and buy a new one.

Blizzard.

[bugs]

David,

I also have the Orange/Canoscan problem. None of the Canon software works right for me and I'm not sure it is the USB configuration. Canon and Omnipage support have no clue. Maybe we could discuss this privately? Others welcome too.
Email to: swell(at)mail.com

cheer,
Tom

Originally posted by David C:
Hi,

I have a beige G3 with an Orange Micro USB/Firewire card. It works fine with USB mice, but it won't work with my CanoScan USB scanner. There is communication, because the button on the scanner does launch Canon's basic software. But when I try to do anything, I just get a clueless error message that the driver couldn't be found. Apparently Canon's driver is returning an error. Different applications (e.g. PhotoShop) give different error messages.

I thought it might be a problem with the power drawn from the USB port, so I tried a powered USB hub. This made no difference at all. The exact same setup works fine with my iBook, using the builtin USB port.

Canon's tech support refuses to help with an add-on card, and Orange Micro's tech support is impossible to reach (I'm still trying). Any suggestions?

If you're looking for a USB card, I got the 2-port Belkin card for my Beige G3 desktop. Wal*Mart around here carries them for $29.96 and an assortment of different USB mice that say "Windows only" but still work on the Mac :-)

-Michael

[moki]

Originally posted by imzadi
:
<STRONG>If you're looking for a USB card, I got the 2-port Belkin card for my Beige G3 desktop. Wal*Mart around here carries them for $29.96 and an assortment of different USB mice that say "Windows only" but still work on the Mac :-)

-Michael</STRONG>

A friend of mine has a Beige G3 that she's trying to get a Belkin USB card (the 2 port version) working on. The card is sitting in the second PCI slot (below the bundled video card), with an additional ATI video card taking up the next slot.

I installed the card, downloaded the USB Card Support installer from Apple, installed that -- but something is amiss. The System Profiler sees the USB card, and it even sees the attached USB Zip drive, but the drive doesn't mount, and the IOmega software doesn't see it either.

It's very strange -- anyone know what might be wrong here? This is a clean OS install (9.2.2), followed by the USB Card Support install (1.4.3 I believe). I tried renaming the IOmega extensions so they loaded after the USB extensions, but that didn't help either.

I also tried just plugging in a USB mouse -- it got power (the mouse lit up), but it didn't work, even after rebooting with the mouse installed. Perhaps the card needs to be in a specific slot, or I'm missing something else...?

[ 04-13-2002: Message edited by: moki ]