[bbxstudio]

Hey geniuses - what was that thing about non-black pixels in the scroll thumb pixm again? Mine keep jumping back a wee bit (I had this figured out and licked in an earlier build but updated the thumbs for the 40th time and need assistance (I'll write it down this time, promise). BTW, the perpetually-in-progress BBX MIRAI is looking s-w-e-e-e-e-t =) ... I'm trying to get it all cleaned up for a preview soon(ish).

[bbxstudio]

Oh, and has anybody figured out that whole 'white halo' around cocoa widgets thing yet?

[bbxstudio]

And why do developers insist on using 'selected' list sort button states to build banks or rows of buttons? I'm using a left-aligned 'indicator' to denote the selected state rather than a whole color change (I want the theme entirely constructed in the same material) and in these violating apps I'm faced with whole rows of buttons with their indicators turned on (Themepark does this in the pixm preview pane to site an example)... this must violate Apple's updated human interface guidelines for Aqua. Not life-threatening but frustrating nontheless.

[quandarry]

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
Hey geniuses - what was that thing about non-black pixels in the scroll thumb pixm again? Mine keep jumping back a wee bit (I had this figured out and licked in an earlier build but updated the thumbs for the 40th time and need assistance (I'll write it down this time, promise). BTW, the perpetually-in-progress BBX MIRAI is looking s-w-e-e-e-e-t =) ... I'm trying to get it all cleaned up for a preview soon(ish).

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...hreadid=161976

[CarbonG4]

hey bbx, quandarry has the right solution for the scroll thumb issue... just use a 95% black 1-pixel stroke at both ends of your scroll thumb cap transparencies and you should be all set.

about the list view headers -- you have something wrong in your pxm's. cocoa applications use the pxm resources differently than carbon applications, but it can be corrected to make cocoa apps only display the selected state for one column in a list header series:


edit: the sticky in the picture below should say "all selected states"


I hope I've answered the right question... I think this is what you were asking. Btw Swiz/Max, do I have the right solution?

Later
//Carbon

[phillryu]

Carbon, that screenshot made my heart literally jump. Thought it was mirai. Oh well

[bOOzo]

Originally posted by CarbonG4:
hey bbx, quandarry has the right solution for the scroll thumb issue... just use a 95% black 1-pixel stroke at both ends of your scroll thumb cap transparencies and you should be all set.

I hope I've answered the right question... I think this is what you were asking. Btw Swiz/Max, do I have the right solution?

Almost right. You don't have to make it a stroke, one pixel at each end is enough. And you can use 99% black.

[smeger]

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
And why do developers insist on using 'selected' list sort button states to build banks or rows of buttons? I'm using a left-aligned 'indicator' to denote the selected state rather than a whole color change (I want the theme entirely constructed in the same material) and in these violating apps I'm faced with whole rows of buttons with their indicators turned on (Themepark does this in the pixm preview pane to site an example)... this must violate Apple's updated human interface guidelines for Aqua. Not life-threatening but frustrating nontheless.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you talking about the column headers in the pxm# editor that stretch horizontally across the editor? If so, they're just standard Aqua.

If you're talking about the row headers that stretch vertically top-to-bottom in the editor, those are the standard horizontal ones flipped and stretched to compensate for the fact that Aqua didn't have anything usable (and it was a serious freakin' pain in the ass to do, too!).

What is the "white halo" thing you're talking about?

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by CarbonG4:
I hope I've answered the right question...

Perfectly! Thank you so much =) I was just relying on the names of the resources as opposed to what they actually did (I guess nobody at Apple is too woried about cleaning up the sloppy leftovers and working titles inside Aqua).

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by phillryu:
Carbon, that screenshot made my heart literally jump. Thought it was mirai. Oh well

Don't worry man, you'll be one of the first to see it when it's ready Hopefully it'll make your heart jump then (it should, it's looking really cool).

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by smeger:
I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you talking about the column headers in the pxm# editor that stretch horizontally across the editor? If so, they're just standard Aqua.

Carbon aswered my question - my bad (well, Apple's bad, my misunderstanding).

What is the "white halo" thing you're talking about?

Non-metal window widgets (close, collapse, zoom, toolbar) 'disabled-state' masks don't premultiply properly in cocoa applications for some reason (I'm not talking about the all-in-the-same-position-or-else issue). At least they never have for me. Not to worry though, I'll harp on about that later on if it gets to be a problem.

[CarbonG4]

bbx:
" Non-metal window widgets (close, collapse, zoom, toolbar) 'disabled-state' masks don't premultiply properly in cocoa applications for some reason (I'm not talking about the all-in-the-same-position-or-else issue). At least they never have for me. Not to worry though, I'll harp on about that later on if it gets to be a problem."

What you're referring to here I believe is yet another inconsistency between how Carbon and Cocoa apps render the GUI. This cannot be avoided. What is happening here is in Cocoa applications, the close widget is masking over itself, as well as the minimize and the maximize widgets:

Here is the classic example of this when it was first discovered (as I recall) by starfleetX w/ his Iridium theme:

(Btw, please do not contact me for this theme, I will not distribute it)

As you can see above, the close widget is masking all widgets while in the background state of the Cocoa application (lower titlebar) -- but the Carbon application (upper titlebar) renders fine.

This is even noticable in Aqua itself... just not as apparent:


See how the Cocoa app (lower titlebar) widgets are more opaque than the widgets shown directly above in the Carbon app?

It all sucks, and there isn't much than can be done about it unless you use completely non-transparent background titlebars and you're foreground and background titlebar widget caps are the same color -- basically exactly how Watercolor and FatalE are done to prevent the inconsistency entirely. Obviously this isn't an elegant solution for all designs, but it works perfectly for both Watercolor and FatalE because it stays true to the original designs of both interfaces.

//Carbon

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by CarbonG4:
This cannot be avoided. It all sucks, and there isn't much than can be done about it...

Man, that blows - I can't believe Apple left things this sloppy. They need to clean it all up someday (but who knows these redundant and ill-behaved resources may linger for some time). I wonder if with Panther's redesigned surface and possible use of themes (although they're more likely to be the OS9 kind with selectable flat-Aqua in different 'flavors' yo) they'll tidy up a bit.

[CarbonG4]

[blah blah blah]One would think that the company who tends to set the interface standards in the computer industry would take more pride and care in their work and make it as consistent as possible. It's clearly not their job to make their OS theme-friendly if they don't want it to be theme-friedly, but as I pointed out above some of these inconsistencies are noticable in Aqua itself.[/blah blah blah]

[yadda yadda yadda]//Carbon[/yadda yadda yadda]

[mrtew]

Originally posted by CarbonG4:
It all sucks, and there isn't much than can be done about it unless you use completely non-transparent background titlebars and you're foreground and background titlebar widget caps are the same color..... it works perfectly for both Watercolor and FatalE because it stays true to the original designs of both interfaces.

I was going to say that I've never had the problem with my Titanium theme I'm working on, and that explains why. I am not using any transparency at all (except for the menus) or even any shifts between active and background windows, because I want it to look like real metal kinda; an illusion I think would be destroyed by the elements changing around, especially becoming clear.

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by mrtew:
I am not using any transparency at all because I want it to look like real metal kinda; an illusion I think would be destroyed by the elements changing around, especially becoming clear.

I hear ya' brother - I'm doing the same thing with Mirai, all-metal-no-plastic, like it was sculpted out of die-cast metal (and man does it ever look like die-cast metal) - I don't want a titch of that metal going transparent. I've been struggling (for what, a year now) trying to get around the fact that I don't want transmogrification between materials anywhere, that it all be as much like an assembly of touchable physical objects rather than virtual ones - so no metal buttons will light up and turn to plastic or get tinted. The buttons push in like real metal buttons would. Try designing into Aqua's space and try not to rely on the transmogrification between materials or even color-shifts and you see just how difficult this can be.

I want it to look like windows assembled from die-cast metal are hovering and drifting over the desktop. I want the dock to look like a die-cast drawer that pops up magnetically on command... the icons to look like die-cast metal badges hovering as well. The biggest thing ticking me off is the fact that icons dragged to the finder window toolbar are ghosted with white instead of becoming semi-transparent when the window is in the background. I've had to resort to designing all-white linework 'glyph' versions of the logos one might drag to the toolbar, but then this plays out into the dock, so the trash becomes a 2D glyph that pops over the edge of the metal drawer if magnification is turned on. So now I'm toying with the idea of making the trash a badge and recommending that users not use it in their toolbar if the ghosting is shattering the illusion (not that it would ever bother anyone the way it bothers me, but hey)...

[fireside]

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
BTW, the perpetually-in-progress BBX MIRAI is looking s-w-e-e-e-e-t =) ... I'm trying to get it all cleaned up for a preview soon(ish).

no one cares if its dirty or not LETS JUST SEE THE DAMN THEME!!!!

[Sage]

Oh, let him have his fun!

BTW bbx... what about the Genie effect? Metal doesn't do that! (And metal doesn't scale at warp speed either! Yike!)

[NetworkShadow]

lol I bet it's going to be the best damn theme ever, I'm sure it's worth waiting for, but it is getting hard to wait for even a preview. But you also have to take in mind that a preview would only make us more excited and want the theme even more. It might be better not to make a preview until say a month or less before it's ready.

If it's as good as it sounds, and I know it will be, I hope apple notices it and works a deal to put it in panther or something cool like that. Nothing would be better than having a BBX quality interface officially supported by Apple.

[CarbonG4]

Originally posted by Sage:
Oh, let him have his fun!

BTW bbx... what about the Genie effect? Metal doesn't do that! (And metal doesn't scale at warp speed either! Yike!)

Maybe it's Hg

//Carbon

[I'mDaMac]

Originally posted by fireside:
no one cares if its dirty or not LETS JUST SEE THE DAMN THEME!!!!

I agree! We're used to seeing "in progress" themes. Screenie soon please

BTW, what would the ETA be once the first screenshot is shown? AND what kind of cool extras do you have planned so that we can transform our desktop experience from Aqua to MIRAI?

[Mike S.]

Originally posted by fireside:
no one cares if its dirty or not LETS JUST SEE THE DAMN THEME!!!!

Seriously, it's feeling like OmniWeb 5 until the OmniGroup finally just said forget it, we'll finish it when it's done.

This theme has been "coming soon" since November 2002 and not so much a teaser pic to show for it.

Why not do like car companies and release some kind of obscured image or a zoomed partial?

The downside is that if it's all you say, people will be nagging even more but at least they'll know it exists...

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by NetworkShadow:
lol But you also have to take in mind that a preview would only make us more excited and want the theme even more. It might be better not to make a preview until say a month or less before it's ready.

That's right - I was going to release a teaser preview this weekend as I'm really excited about its progress, but then I realized that with the baby coming this week I have no idea just how long finishing up will take and I would get totally slammed with 'release it now! must have it now!' - then I might not be able to deliver the final product before people got anxious or be forced to release it without anything extra but the Safari skin (which is done), including icons and other necessary bits and pieces.

I'll also make sure the period between preview and release is a week or less - I'd hate to see ports based on the preview show up for XP before the Mac theme is even released, that would suck large.

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by Sage:
BTW bbx... what about the Genie effect? Metal doesn't do that! (And metal doesn't scale at warp speed either! Yike!)

True, but it doesn't hover either, so there have to be some concessions.

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by Mike S.:
This theme has been "coming soon" since November 2002 and not so much a teaser pic to show for it.

That's because it's a surprise - so much so that even the logo would ruin the surprise to some extent. It's also no longer the theme it was in November - that theme for all intents and purposes is dead because it's changed so much since then. Had I released that former incarnation then, it wouldn't be anywhere near as cool as it is now - so it's a good thing nobody has seen a preview up until now. Perhaps an 'in progress' would have been a much better choice than 'coming soon' I suppose.

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by I'mDaMac:
...what kind of cool extras do you have planned so that we can transform our desktop experience from Aqua to MIRAI?

Hmm, for sure: 2 flavors of OSX theme (injected aluminum plates with black rubber seals and white glyphs, and injected aluminum plates with no rubber and white glyphs), a Safari skin (well 2, one for each flavor), construction kit (bits and pieces of the injected aluminum surface to build things with), a dock skin, tons of icons and icon templates, desktops (even got some of the best PC futuristic wallpaper guys doing some for it), alert sounds, and 99% sure a funky iTunes remote Konfabulator Widget (and maybe 2, one for each flavor). Possibly: iTunes skin, Camino skin, more Widgets, more app skins.

It really is the nicest theme/scheme I've ever done - I'm going to take my time to make sure it's freakishly tight and fun to use.

[fireside]

*sigh* keeping the theme top secret will just make us MORE curious and want to see the darned thing. atleast you could show a freaking widget or SOMETHING. i mean, come on. you have to draw the line somewhere. i mean, when Carbon or Swiz or Max post a screenie of their next theme, people get excited, but they dont go "NOW NOW NOW." i think the only reason people would go "NOW NOW NOW NOW" about mirai is that its been underraps for so long and no one has the slightest clue to what it will look like. *sigh* i can always dream, cant i?

[mrtew]

Originally posted by bbxstudio:
It really is the nicest theme/scheme I've ever done - I'm going to take my time to make sure it's freakishly tight and fun to use.

I am the opposite of you.... I can't stop posting preview shots of my unreleased theme! You'd better not talk yours up any more... no theme possible will be able to live up to the hype you're generating! :-] And you'd better release it before the baby comes because you won't give a carp about a bunch of Mac guys you've never met after you have a kid in the house.

[FB Eye]

BBX, DON'T post any previews or teasers!!!

From what I've seen around here, people will start buggin' you with thing like "make this smaller, can this be purple?, this button is too rounded, blah blah blah" and we'll never see the end of it. And if you start listening to any of them, we'll never get the theme in this century (you perfectionnist!!! )

I can't wait to pop in here one morning to read:

MIRAI released!!!

I'll probably wet my pants then...

[fireside]

how the heck does bbx even know if people will like the damn theme if he is the only one who has seen it?

[CarbonG4]

Originally posted by fireside:
how the heck does bbx even know if people will like the damn theme if he is the only one who has seen it?

Because of his huge success and user-base that he established from his OS 9 interfaces.

[fireside]

Originally posted by CarbonG4:
Because of his huge success and user-base that he established from his OS 9 interfaces.

that doesnt mean its going to be good. yes, you can make an awesome product, but at the same time, after you make the awesome product, you can make a really really lousy one too.

[swiz]

I have total confidence that bbx's release will be stunning, and probably the most comprehensive package available for OSX GUI's.

The one thing I can see happening though unfortunately is those who dont love it or find little things they dont like about it will be jumping all over him talking about how overhyped it was. Its a loveless job just like referee-ing in a sport.

[NetworkShadow]

Originally posted by swiz:
I have total confidence that bbx's release will be stunning, and probably the most comprehensive package available for OSX GUI's.

The one thing I can see happening though unfortunately is those who dont love it or find little things they dont like about it will be jumping all over him talking about how overhyped it was. Its a loveless job just like referee-ing in a sport.

You'll always have a few people who don't like it. My theme Dark Glass seems to be a 50/50 love/dislike, and as a first theme I'm happy with that. But with BBX's I'm sure most people will love it. The only things I ever didn't like by BBX are a few of his first OS X icon sets. Most designers know what people will like, so I wouldn't worry about this theme not being good.

[Mike S.]

Injected aluminum, rubber seals and white gliphs you say...

How about a fun Photoshop project to pass the time? Anyone want to create some imaginary mock-ups for BBX to laugh at?

Watermark it so nobody from another forum tries to pass it off as the real deal, wouldn't want to ruin BBX's reptutation.

[CarbonG4]

Originally posted by Mike S.:
Injected aluminum, rubber seals and white gliphs you say...

How about a fun Photoshop project to pass the time? Anyone want to create some imaginary mock-ups for BBX to laugh at?

Watermark it so nobody from another forum tries to pass it off as the real deal, wouldn't want to ruin BBX's reptutation.

Well having personally been a beta tester for BBX since November 2002, I can accurately depict the theme for you in this confidential artist rendering:



Later
//Carbon

[phillryu]

Carbon, don't ever do that again!! Sure, it practically gave me a heart attack, but ok, it's pretty funny.

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by fireside:
that doesnt mean its going to be good. yes, you can make an awesome product, but at the same time, after you make the awesome product, you can make a really really lousy one too.

Well that's true, but I'm pretty confident people will like it - besides, I'm not out to win any popularity contests or create the ultimate 'populist' theme kit... I'm just doing what I always do, making myself happy and hoping others will also enjoy it. A lot of people generally do...

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by NetworkShadow:
The only things I ever didn't like by BBX are a few of his first OS X icon sets.

I never did an OSX icon set ever - Mikkel Maddsen did one based on Mercury, but it was done without my help or art direction, I just game him my blessing to release it.

[CarbonG4]

bbx, sorry if I raised the bar for you w/ my mockup -- causing you to have to start from scratch to top my design.

Now in all seriousness, I think it's safe to say most everyone is excited about your themes but don't break down and post any previews too far in advance. If it has worked for you in the past to stay quiet about your designs then keep doing it. Otherwise your designs will just be picked apart by potential users, and we all know you can't please everyone. It doesn't really make sense coming from me I suppose, since I usually jump the gun. I do that because I don't really have any set design in mind, so I don't mind getting feedback and ideas while I develop Meteora... but now I have started completely over. So you can't really win -- regardless of which angle you play.

Anyway, keep on pushing those pixels dude.
//Carbon

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by swiz:
I have total confidence that bbx's release will be stunning... The one thing I can see happening though unfortunately is those who dont love it or find little things they dont like about it will be jumping all over him talking about how overhyped it was.

Thanks Swiz - means a lot coming from a talented guy like yourself =)

I'm really not worried at all about the people who won't like it - and not everybody will... I have a very minimalist style these days, so it's more tight and understated than flashy. People used to the floating glass bubble or inset plastic thing from Apple's designs may not dig the continuous surface with 2D glyph thing. I guess we'll see, but I won't be losing sleep if even a large number of people say 'wah?' - I'll be happy with it and it'll be the best I could do at the time so that's all that matters.

As for hype - yes I've spoken enthusiastically about it with you guys in this forum, but more on a 'hey fellow themers, I'm having fun, let's share' level than anything else. You'll notice that I'll get pulled into these 'tell us more' discussions in totally unrelated posts (like this one) when I refer to it or mention its progress in passing. Of course I'm going to talk about it, it's fun =)

But the true 'focused assault' hype stage hasn't even begun (You'll see some serious hype once I actually get down to it - only then can I be accused of not delivering when it hits). Right now I'm just telling it like it is, describing what it looks like and what it will be comprised of but that's it. I guess because I generate hype launching stuff for a living it tends to seep out unintentionally. I'm not even trying to get people worked up yet.

[bbxstudio]

Originally posted by CarbonG4:
bbx, sorry if I raised the bar for you w/ my mockup -- causing you to have to start from scratch to top my design.

Now I'll never be able to live up to expectations - thanks dude, you just killed a years's worth of development... back to the drawing board

[NetworkShadow]

He's working like Apple, keeping it under wraps until it's done. Fair enough.

[Mike S.]

Wow Carbon, greatest theme EVER!

Please tell me that's what it looks like BBX, I'd rush to be the first to download it!

Such quality...