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The official Leopard thread (Page 28)
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sushiism
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Aug 31, 2007, 05:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by lookmark View Post
they're going to need to make it much more open to third-party expansion. Otherwise its marketshare will remain small.
Evidence please outside of the loudmouthed but otherwise tiny Firefox extension crowd
     
Kevin
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Sep 1, 2007, 09:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Not exactly. Nobody thinks, "Gee, I really want to patch my system." The idea is more like, "I find Aqua hard on my eyes. I wish I could have something a little more pleasing."
I can do that without APE. I hate the way it patches the system and slows things down.

That is why I stopped using Kaleidoscope back in the day.

I wont use any theme that requires you to install software that patches the system.

I am glad Max offers smooth stripes as a installer.

I'd suggest any theme maker that makes themes that don't REQUIRE shapeshifter to make installer packages instead.

I remember hot swapping Extras.rsrc files when I used to theme back in the pre-public beta days with Sprocket.

Or wait.. it was the theme app before sprocket I think.,..
     
Kevin
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Sep 1, 2007, 09:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by lookmark View Post
I'm all for Apple removing InputManagers if it's proved too much of a security risk... but they need to offer a way for developers to add plug-ins for Safari. People want and need plug-ins for their browser; it's one reason Firefox remains popular and has managed to steal away an astonishing 10-15% marketshare from IE.
Um someone managed to make a nice plugin for Safari..


As for haxies and various systemwide UI hacks -- again, if Apple really wants to discourage things like APE they need to offer an API for developers to customize the OS X UI. Unless they do, someone will *always* find some way to patch the system and offer users what they want.
And when their system crashes and acts slow or weird cause of it, Apple wont have to deal with them.
     
Chuckit
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Sep 1, 2007, 01:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
I can do that without APE. I hate the way it patches the system and slows things down.
Some people realize their computers are pretty ****ing fast these days and the minor slowdown from having, say, Shapeshifter or Dashboard running is insignificant compared to the time it takes to reinstall your system if on-disk patching goes wrong.

Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
I wont use any theme that requires you to install software that patches the system.

I am glad Max offers smooth stripes as a installer.
So it's OK if it patches the system, just as long as it does it in a way that's not easily reversible and has the potential to completely require a reinstall of the entire OS if it goes wrong? Yes, I wish all applications physically patched crucial system components. That would be so much better and more secure than the targeted runtime patching that's taking flack in this thread.

Seriously, you seem to be suggesting that physically and permanently ****ing up code is better than temporarily and safely changing the code at runtime. That's nuts.
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Sep 1, 2007, 08:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
Um someone managed to make a nice plugin for Safari..

1) Open up your home directory.
2) Locate the Library folder and open it**.
3) Locate (create if necessary) the InputManagers folder.
4) Drag the entire "SafariBlock" folder into the InputManagers folder.
5) Restart Safari.


Anyway, the 1passwd people appears to have made inroads into making plugins without InputManagers, so we'll see how this turns out.

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Taylor C
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Sep 1, 2007, 08:54 PM
 
I absolutely adore Safari, but I can't live without a few plugins. Firstly, Inquisitor is amazing, I need Stand to force things to open in tabs, and I love Saft's ability to create shortcuts (example: I type 'mnn' into my address bar and it takes me to MacNN); this is the single feature I can't live without. On top of all of that though, Safari 3 is really impressive so far.
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sushiism
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Sep 1, 2007, 09:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Taylor C View Post
s (example: I type 'mnn' into my address bar and it takes me to MacNN); this is the single feature I can't live without.
Plenty of ways to achieve that without plugins
     
Chuckit
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Sep 1, 2007, 09:22 PM
 
There's a simple way to achieve that without modifying the program or introducing side effects?
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TETENAL
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Sep 1, 2007, 09:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Taylor C View Post
I type 'mnn' into my address bar and it takes me to MacNN
Are you really significantly faster typing "mnn" instead of "macnn"? I can't imagine it makes a difference.
I have an auto-click tab group in my bookmarks bar that opens all my favourite MacNN forums at once, so I beat you anyway.
     
lookmark
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Sep 2, 2007, 09:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by sushiism View Post
Evidence please outside of the loudmouthed but otherwise tiny Firefox extension crowd
I'm not even such a Firefox fan (I've loved Safari from day one, and Firefox on OS X is pretty clunky), but it's success is very noticeable, and Safari for Windows, by all accounts, was met with modest interest - at best.

Now having an extensible browser is just one factor out of many (Safari is still in beta; it doesn't respect a bunch of Windows UI traditions; etc.) but if Apple really wants Safari to be a viable alternative to IE, IMO a robust and open plug-in system for your browser is essential.

Alternatively, they can just provide UI for the major things people get plug-ins for, e.g. ad blocking. (Once you get used to ad-free browsing it's almost impossible to go back, no?) But I don't think Apple is bold or (from a commercial perspective) foolish enough to do that.
     
sushiism
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Sep 2, 2007, 01:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
There's a simple way to achieve that without modifying the program or introducing side effects?
I'd probably edit my hosts file to point mnn.com to here if I really wanted to do that

but to be honest putting it in the bookmarks bar and pressing cmd+1-9 is faster
     
analogika
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Sep 2, 2007, 01:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by lookmark View Post
Now having an extensible browser is just one factor out of many (Safari is still in beta; it doesn't respect a bunch of Windows UI traditions; etc.) but if Apple really wants Safari to be a viable alternative to IE, IMO a robust and open plug-in system for your browser is essential.
I don't think Joe Flatfork really cares.

The relevant bit for him is that somebody tells him that Safari is a *secure* alternative to IE. That's all it has to be, IMO. If it's unconfusing, pretty, and secure, it's fine.
     
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Sep 2, 2007, 02:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by TETENAL View Post
I guess the designated Downloads folder will make this less of a problem, but anyway: When the rightmost column of icons on the Desktop is full, are new icons still created under the Dock (this is so annoying in Tiger) or is the Finder finally Dock aware in this regard?
* bump *
     
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Sep 2, 2007, 05:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by TETENAL View Post
* bump *
Yes. The finder is dock aware.

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Kevin
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Sep 3, 2007, 10:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Some people realize their computers are pretty ****ing fast these days and the minor slowdown from having, say, Shapeshifter or Dashboard running is insignificant compared to the time it takes to reinstall your system if on-disk patching goes wrong.
I can notice a difference. If I can noticeably feel a see a difference it effects performance. The only thing the installer does is replace one file for another. As I've stated before, even when OS X was buggy as all get out, I used to hot swap these files.
So it's OK if it patches the system, just as long as it does it in a way that's not easily reversible and has the potential to completely require a reinstall of the entire OS if it goes wrong? Yes, I wish all applications physically patched crucial system components. That would be so much better and more secure than the targeted runtime patching that's taking flack in this thread.
Um, his installer doesn't PATCH anything. Just replaces a file with another without patching. Meaning the system sees that file like it did the original. System isn't effected by patching as it runs.
Seriously, you seem to be suggesting that physically and permanently ****ing up code is better than temporarily and safely changing the code at runtime. That's nuts.
No, no I am not. You are taking what I am saying, and exaggerating it .

You are also exaggerating the dangers of Max's Smooth Stripes installer.

My complaints about APE are valid however.I hate "On the fly" patching systems like that.

Aaron was the same way. I loved the way it made system 7 look. But hated the way it slowed things down and made the system less stable.

All one needs to do is go into the GUI forum to see how many problems people had with APE applications.

Back in the day when I had an installer for Sosumi and the rest of the themes I had made, there was rarely a problem. (of course not as many people themed)
     
Chuckit
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Sep 3, 2007, 12:52 PM
 
All one needs to do is go back to the days of hot-swapping to see that that screwed people's systems over much worse than APE does. As far as I can tell, Shapeshifter does the exact same thing in a safer way (i.e., by replacing the file's contents in memory rather than on the hard disk).
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Kevin
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Sep 3, 2007, 01:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
All one needs to do is go back to the days of hot-swapping to see that that screwed people's systems over much worse than APE does.
The only people that had problems where people putting in Extras files for OLD versions of the OS in newer versions. This is why it was stressed for the cranially impaired not to do such a thing. But still, even then we didn't have the application and compatibility problems that fill the GUI forum all the time. It was an occasional issue with a few people that "Didn't get it"
As far as I can tell, Shapeshifter does the exact same thing in a safer way (i.e., by replacing the file's contents in memory rather than on the hard disk).
It live patches over the original extras.rsrc.

Replacing the file entirely, and patching it as you go is a whole different ballgame.

There was a theme Engine that installed these types of themes, plus original restored Aqua at one time. All you had to do is re-log in.

No system patches, no application oddities or weirdness. No slowness on launching apps. No weird drawing widget oddities.

I used to do Kal themes back in the day. Even did a personal OS 9 hack of Platinum. After using OS 9 at work WITHOUT these additions, I realized how much faster my workflow was. how much more response the OS was.

Now, I am not saying Shapeshifter slows down OS X like Kal did OS 9. We do have faster hardware now.

But Shapeshifter and Kaleidoscope but share similar problems because they both patched the system in a similar way.

I noticed that the themes Apple had for THEIR engine worked great and didn't slow down the OS like Kaleidoscope too.

BTW I think it Macfixit, or some other Mac site that did a test of my Sosumi theme, and Aqua. And the GUI was over all more responsive to the OS using my theme over Aqua at the time. I figure it would be even more so with Simple Aqua.

All I can figure out was, it was because I got rid of the stripes, and made the pattern resource BIGGER and one plain grey color. Plus my transparencies weren't as obnoxious. (Latter Apple also changed to a darker transparency, probably seeing it made things faster)

At the time I OS X first came out, I am talking pre-public beta days I was watching and taking care of my Uncle that was paralyzed from the neck down. And could barely talk. So I had a lot of time to tinker with those first OS X theme applications (I have them backed up.. Sprocket was a real winner.. then it disappeared...Apple legal was being really jerky then..) And the Extras.rsrc is CRAMMED with thousands and thousands of files. Some not even used by the OS anymore.

Apple needed to make it simpler. That is why there aren't many themes out there. It takes TONS of time to make a COMPLETE overhaul. It took me forever to put out Sosumi. Which was one, if not the first full Aqua replacement. Meaning one that had none of the original aqua elements in it.

But with each release Apple would add MORE resources, and leave in old crud.

That and people not respecting your work (and some other unmentionables) really killed what was looking like the start of a killer themeing group in this forum.

Many of those first guys no longer come here anymore. :/
     
goMac
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Sep 4, 2007, 02:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Some people realize their computers are pretty ****ing fast these days and the minor slowdown from having, say, Shapeshifter or Dashboard running is insignificant compared to the time it takes to reinstall your system if on-disk patching goes wrong.
Patching an application's memory space is not the only way to avoid on disk patching. (Well, for themes at least...)
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Chuckit
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Sep 4, 2007, 03:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
Patching an application's memory space is not the only way to avoid on disk patching. (Well, for themes at least...)
I'm intrigued. If you're not replacing the data in memory or on disk, where in the world are you doing it?
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Big Mac
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Sep 4, 2007, 03:32 PM
 
Perhaps he's referring to a proper application level plug-in architecture.

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Kevin
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Sep 5, 2007, 06:00 AM
 
Big Mac the extras.rsrc is close to what OS 9 called "Theme files" Remember Platinum, Modern, etc. Apple doesn't support 3rd party people messing with it's "themeing engine" but it's really no different.

I'd rather have my system see what it normally does than have it swapping files via memory.
     
analogika
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Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
Big Mac the extras.rsrc is close to what OS 9 called "Theme files" Remember Platinum, Modern, etc. Apple doesn't support 3rd party people messing with it's "themeing engine" but it's really no different.

I'd rather have my system see what it normally does than have it swapping files via memory.
That's file-patching.
     
Kevin
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Sep 5, 2007, 06:14 AM
 
Well in the case you are patching NEW images into the SAME file the system uses. Unless you add to, or take away from the file in a way it's not meant to there are no problems at all.

The only problems people had with installers that replaced the Extras file was, some not so smart people were using OLD installers for OLD OSs. The Installer would even tell them what OS it supported. But did it anyhow.

I'd call that Karma.

In the almost 8 or so years I've been tinkering with the Extras.rsrc and HOT SWAPPING them, I've ran into zero problems.

I guess I miss the glory days of themeing. Where ANYONE could use the theme. You didn't have to spend extra money to use a themeing engine already built into the OS. Some of the most bad-assed themes were created during this time, and are still in use as some of the top fav themes.

I'd just like to see a CHOICE. I realize that Shapshifter ADDS the ability to do things you can't normally do. But a lot of themes simply don't use these features. And a stand-alone installer version of them would be a nice choice. And would probably get your theme used more by people that dislike APE like products and don't want to pay for something they can basically do with the OS now.

That is why I applaud Max for having installer versions of certain themes of his.
( Last edited by Kevin; Sep 5, 2007 at 06:21 AM. )
     
analogika
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Sep 5, 2007, 07:11 AM
 
It's still on-disk patching.

The question was what goMac was talking about when he said that
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
Patching an application's memory space is not the only way to avoid on disk patching. (Well, for themes at least...)
     
Kevin
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Sep 5, 2007, 08:06 AM
 
Yeah I'd be all for a way to do such a thing that doesn't mess with on the fly patching. SO far though, me simply replacing the file that has been modified works the best. No bugginess problems or incompatibilities. No slowdown..

That is why it made me mad that someone didn't build an application to make OS 9 themes at the time. The best of Kaleidoscope, without the slowdown.

Because say, the Kal version of Platinum was a lot slower than the OS 9 version.
     
Chuckit
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Sep 5, 2007, 09:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
Well in the case you are patching NEW images into the SAME file the system uses. Unless you add to, or take away from the file in a way it's not meant to there are no problems at all.
There are no problems if nothing goes wrong with Shapeshifter, either. It's kind of tautological, really.
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goMac
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Sep 5, 2007, 11:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
Yeah I'd be all for a way to do such a thing that doesn't mess with on the fly patching. SO far though, me simply replacing the file that has been modified works the best. No bugginess problems or incompatibilities. No slowdown..
Don't expect that to hold true forever in all cases.
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Kevin
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Sep 6, 2007, 06:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
There are no problems if nothing goes wrong with Shapeshifter, either. It's kind of tautological, really.
True. But it just so happens that SS has had more problems over the years.
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
Don't expect that to hold true forever in all cases.
Well I doubt SS will ever come out with a version just as fast or stable as manually replacing the files.. so..

BTW how is it going to work in 10.5?
     
goMac
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Sep 6, 2007, 07:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
BTW how is it going to work in 10.5?
Can't talk about that, under NDA. After 10.5 comes out I'd be glad to talk about it. (Well, I have no idea what Unsanity is planning, so don't ask me about Shapeshifter under 10.5...)
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Dakarʒ
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Sep 7, 2007, 09:15 AM
 
So, is it a little unusual that's it's less than a month from launch and we don't have a concrete date yet?
     
SirCastor
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Sep 7, 2007, 09:40 AM
 
As I recall, there's usually an event and then Steve says something like "It's available today...". I don't recall ever having a release date, but my memory may be off.
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Chuckit
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Sep 7, 2007, 09:58 AM
 
I recall at least for Panther and Tiger seeing Steve announce the release date about the month in advance. I was just wondering what the actual date will be myself.
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Sep 7, 2007, 10:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
Can't talk about that, under NDA. After 10.5 comes out I'd be glad to talk about it. (Well, I have no idea what Unsanity is planning, so don't ask me about Shapeshifter under 10.5...)
STart your phrase with "I can neither confirm nor deny...." and then say whatever you want.
     
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Sep 7, 2007, 10:46 AM
 
For some reason I had it in my head that the release date was Oct. 24 or 27, or something like that?
     
Dakarʒ
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Sep 7, 2007, 10:49 AM
 
The Leopard page on Apple's website certainly doesn't indicate that.
     
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Sep 7, 2007, 10:51 AM
 
I'm pretty sure that was the date they set when they postponed the release initially because of their developers working on the iPhone. Maybe the date was not meant to be firm.
     
Dakarʒ
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Sep 7, 2007, 10:53 AM
 
Either way, I have to say that, since they haven't actually given that firm date yet and it's September, a late October release becomes all the more likely.
     
Chuckit
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Sep 7, 2007, 11:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
For some reason I had it in my head that the release date was Oct. 24 or 27, or something like that?
Apple has always just said "October." Some rumor site suggested it would be the 27th.
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goMac
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Sep 7, 2007, 01:08 PM
 
Steve will usually announce the release date about a month beforehand. I've never heard of him making an OS upgrade "available today" aside from minor updates.
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imitchellg5
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Originally Posted by goMac View Post
Steve will usually announce the release date about a month beforehand. I've never heard of him making an OS upgrade "available today" aside from minor updates.
I've heard it's due out the 26th. We'll see. It would be nice since I have school off that day
     
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Sep 11, 2007, 02:27 PM
 
Do they have a set price on it? Will there be a special price for current Tiger users?
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Sep 11, 2007, 02:54 PM
 
$129 and no.
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Sep 11, 2007, 03:10 PM
 
People, seriously stop asking that. If you're new to Mac, do a little search. If you're a Mac oldie, then why would you assume it would be any different from any other OS release?
     
tmelcher
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Sep 12, 2007, 02:44 AM
 
I personally am really eager to hear the final release date, as I have my copy of the WWDC beta but am not an ADC member, so I'm still running 9A466, which has all sorts of annoying bugs. After installing it on a FireWire external hard drive when I first got it, I decided it was stable enough to use as a primary operating system, and, to be fair, it really is pretty good, but the little bugs are really starting to get to me.

I know I could just go back to Tiger, but there's no way to downgrade without reformatting, and you also have to reformat to move from a beta of Leopard to the full release. Needless to say, I don't want to have to go through the work of archiving and then reconfiguring my OS twice in such a short window of time.
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Sep 12, 2007, 06:39 PM
 
I'm having a hard time finding the posts about OS upgrades for people who bought Macs after the announcement of the release date. Can anyone point me in the right direction? I completely forgot about Leopard when I bought my new iMac because I really needed a new computer, but now that it's September, I'm curious about the rules for upgrades.

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Sep 12, 2007, 06:42 PM
 
Well, there hasn't been a release date set yet has it? So I don't think you need to worry

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Sep 12, 2007, 07:10 PM
 
As erik points out, there usually isn't a comp upgrade policy until the release date is announced, and it has applied in the past to customers who have bought after the announcement.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
ghporter
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: San Antonio TX USA
Status: Offline
Sep 12, 2007, 09:31 PM
 
For some reason I was thinking it had been announced. I was probably thinking of something else. Drat. Ah well, at least I can get it at the student price...

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Kevin
Baninated
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: In yer threads
Status: Offline
Sep 13, 2007, 06:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
Can't talk about that, under NDA. After 10.5 comes out I'd be glad to talk about it. (Well, I have no idea what Unsanity is planning, so don't ask me about Shapeshifter under 10.5...)
I am betting (hoping) it will be rendered irrelevant.
     
Dakarʒ
Professional Poster
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: A House of Ill-Repute in the Sky
Status: Offline
Sep 13, 2007, 08:50 AM
 
You and me both. I don't feel like waiting till themepark gets updated 6 months later to customize my comp.
     
 
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