[Apple Pro Underwear]

I know this is not in the "correct" section but I am envisioning this to be a very "shoot the breeze" type thread rather than a technical discussion.

________


I'm a designer who does print and web. I will program my own sites if necessary and I keep very up to date with how to execute websites.

Something I see growing more important is CMS systems for the client to manage the website themselves. My company will probably contract a vendor but how do your companies deal with this?

Is it the designer/programmer's responsibility to learn how to set up a CMS? If so what kind? Like Drupal, Joomla and Mambo or something like GoBarry and Light CMS (internet based).

Please chime in.

[boy8cookie]

For all the free lance websites I do, I normally create the CMS in HTML with the most basic interface possible. This allows the most customization for me, plus HTML is easy to work with, both for me and the end user. I use PHP with MySQL for the back end stuff.

I do this for all the sites I do, HTML, Flash, or JS.

[Big Mac]

I'm migrating a site (albeit slowly right now) to ExpressionEngine.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally Posted by boy8cookie 

For all the free lance websites I do, I normally create the CMS in HTML with the most basic interface possible. This allows the most customization for me, plus HTML is easy to work with, both for me and the end user. I use PHP with MySQL for the back end stuff.

I do this for all the sites I do, HTML, Flash, or JS.

So you do a custom solution... i suppose you "invented" a system or re-usable code base and use it according to your needs right? Can you say if you based it off something? I ask because sometimes I wonder if a full-blown CMS is too much and a little admin function for 2 or 3 parts of the website might work.

[Chuckit]

Even just WordPress (which is stupid simple) is enough for a lot of sites. What's best depends a lot on what you're trying to do. But unless we're talking about something really trivial to implement, I think you should consciously rule out existing CMSes before you go reinventing the wheel. Make sure that you'll actually be able to write your own software quicker and get a better result before you commit to it. I knew a guy who spent a month implementing a PHP-based CMS for a site, and then he went and made a very similar site in a few days using WordPress + a few plugins.

[besson3c]

WordPress is indeed a good, basic CMS. I've written my own CMS for musicians and have spent literally years developing it and perfecting it, but I have the luxury of being able to focus it specifically on musicians. If I wasn't doing this, a more generic CMS such as WordPress would be a better use of my time, I think.

[boy8cookie]

Originally Posted by Apple Pro Underwear 

So you do a custom solution... i suppose you "invented" a system or re-usable code base and use it according to your needs right? Can you say if you based it off something? I ask because sometimes I wonder if a full-blown CMS is too much and a little admin function for 2 or 3 parts of the website might work.

I reuse a LOT of my code. I am very "lazy" in that respect. I'm basing the CMS off the client's needs. A lot of the sites I do don't require a ton of customizable elements. Most of the time, I'm creating a CMS for a specific part of the site, like an online store or photo gallery. I'm sure there are templates and things like that which are able to replicate what I make, but I'm used to doing it my way

[Apple Pro Underwear]

I'm familiar with Wordpress and like it a bunch but I really have no idea what other companies use. I'm going to an Event Apart in San Francisco in a few weeks and hopefully I can learn more there.

I honestly wish that there was like some sort of widely accepted CMS that offered different levels of features. I don't feel comfortable yet with the options so far. Clients expect us to make anything happen online and I would hate putting myself in a hole.

[- - e r i k - -]

I've heard good things about Expression Engine.

[nonhuman]

I run a web programming company, and basically just get hired by web designers to do the programming end of web sites. So I've got a bit of experience with this issue. I've just started using Expression Engine for a project, and so far it seems pretty good. I've also used Django extensively which isn't really a CMS, but is a framework that makes it insanely easy to build a custom CMS. I've built a few CMSes from scratch in PHP as well, and of course used WordPress for a number of things.

Obviously it will vary based on the exact needs of the client, but in general I would recommend using a framework like Django, TuboGears, Ruby on Rails, &c. (my personal favorite is Django) because it will allow you to build a CMS to your exact specifications without having to expend a whole lot of effort. This is especially true of Django which provides a built-in yet heavily customizable admin interface that's automatically generated according to your model definitions.

I haven't actually used it myself, but I've heard enough bad things about Drupal that my inclination is to stay away and recommend others do the same. Basically, it sounds like they promise the moon, but make it so hard to achieve that you end up having to pay a ridiculous amount of money to achieve anything (Drupal development is often around $250/hour). This is purely anecdotal, however, and ymmv. I do intend to take a closer look at it myself in the future when I have some free time (ha!).

[Chuckit]

Drupal's problem is that it's built for heavy customization, and anybody who's used enough software knows exactly what that means.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

Obviously it will vary based on the exact needs of the client, but in general I would recommend using a framework like Django, TuboGears, Ruby on Rails, &c. (my personal favorite is Django) because it will allow you to build a CMS to your exact specifications without having to expend a whole lot of effort. This is especially true of Django which provides a built-in yet heavily customizable admin interface that's automatically generated according to your model definitions.

Thanks nonhuman, your post was great. I just want to know what other people are doing. I've seen Django used before by a interviewee and brushed it off as a non-primetime CMS. I was looking at RoR as a framework that might be interesting though. Although Frameworks make things infinitely more technical and requiring more expertise.

My experience with Drupal... hard to use. They promise easy everything but I find they lack a certain "ease of use" quality.

[Chuckit]

Any development requires expertise. If somebody isn't technically adept enough to use Ruby on Rails, he probably isn't going to be able to make a good Web app without it either.

[besson3c]

Make sure your host supports RoR too, and that you won't be painting yourself into a corner. When in doubt, PHP is a safer bet in both respects, although I acknowledge that RoR can help speed development.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

wow, expression engine looks very promising...

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Apple Pro Underwear 

wow, expression engine looks very promising...

Expression Engine is pretty sweet. I haven't gotten too deep into it yet, but will be over the next few weeks. The templating system works very well, and the whole experience is pretty polished. My only real annoyance is that the default way to edit the templates and such is through the web interface. Everything is stored in the database, so you have to to explicitly tell it to save things as actual files in order to edit them in any other way (I use mostly Emacs and TextMate). The client I'm developing for right now has their hosting on a MediaTemple Grid Server which adds in a whole extra layer of complexity just so that you can edit the damned templates in a text editor (due to technical difficulties with MediaTemple the other day I still haven't set it up to allow that...).

As for Django, you're right that it's not quite mainstream yet. But I've been pretty heavily involved with it and in the community for the past few months and it seems to me that it's quickly gaining in usage and, with the 1.0 release next month, is poised to grow even faster. I'd recommend you check it out, the more I've used it the more I've loved it.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

As for Django, you're right that it's not quite mainstream yet. But I've been pretty heavily involved with it and in the community for the past few months and it seems to me that it's quickly gaining in usage and, with the 1.0 release next month, is poised to grow even faster. I'd recommend you check it out, the more I've used it the more I've loved it.

I can program PHP, which Expression Engine uses. I've had minimal experience with Python though, which Django uses. I kind of feel RoR maybe better to invest time in if you're going to learn a new framework.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Apple Pro Underwear 

I can program PHP, which Expression Engine uses. I've had minimal experience with Python though, which Django uses. I kind of feel RoR maybe better to invest time in if you're going to learn a new framework.

The thing that initially attracted me to Django was Python, which I've used in academic and research settings, and really enjoy (my favorite programming language!). The automatic admin interface is what sold me. When I first tried Django my plan was to then give RoR a try as well. I never really got around to it...

[Apple Pro Underwear]

I checked out all the Experience Engine videos and looked into the demo...

This looks like what I was dreaming about. Pretty simple, flexible, easy-to-use, supported and the admin has a tailored feel to it. Too bad it's not free... but since I'd be recommending it to customers with money, that's not a deal breaker for me.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Make sure your host supports RoR too, and that you won't be painting yourself into a corner. When in doubt, PHP is a safer bet in both respects, although I acknowledge that RoR can help speed development.

Won't be painting yourself into a corner? How on earth is it easier to paint yourself into a corner with Ruby than PHP?

[RAILhead]

ExpressionEngine. End of story. The more you work it they way it's intended, the more powerful it is.

[Andhee]

Me and my mate currently are making a whole admin system for a custom CMS, we've made several CMS' before so we know what we're doing. It's a pretty pro job, and it'll be able to be adapted to any website once complete.

I've never heard of that ExpressionEngine whatever it is, but I'm sure its good, but if you want something more individual, you can contact me if you want.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

I love love love Expression Engine now that I've researched it thoroughly and am probably going to use it in my next project... ever heard of CushyCMS (free version)*?

http://www.cushycms.com/

I think this might be a good option for the "low-end" clients.


(Paid version is totally overpriced at $28 per month. EE is 250 for the price of the entire software package.)