[segovius]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

Yes, what EuroAmericans did to Native Americans is deplorable that was 300 years ago. Now look at the coexisence of both communities. they both reside in the worlds most proporous nation, i hardly think either would claim they'd have been better off otherwise.

To the degree that they do not share your benchmark of 'normality' as being represented by material prosperity (as they did not traditionally) they may well claim they were better off.

Certainly in cultures I am familiar with that have changed from traditional to Western I would claim they were 'better off' before.

Jews didnt just arive in a sudden mass immigration to the area, they were migrating there for years, and then they decide to form a state of Israel on the land of their ancestory.

Not quite the full picture.

And it is Israeli land. you know why ? if all the reasons ive stated arent good enough....use your own reasoning and switch the words "Israel" and "palestine" around. The modern state of Israel has been there for 50 odd years, right ? so what, you want to kick them off now ?

Using your logic - where did the Children of Israel originally get the land? According to Judaism (and right-wing Christianity), God gave them it. But what does this mean?

It means taking land off the original inhabitants and slaughtering them - actually, if you take the Bible as historical truth (always dangerous) then you have the record of one of the most extensive systematic campaigns of genocide until the 20th century.

But my point is this: to use the 'it's Israel's land' argument is to implicitly agree with the methodology of how they gained this land (ie in the manner described above) and to legitimize such tactics. You therefore (if yo wish to be logical) cannot criticize those who you see as using similar tactics against them today - unless you have a predisposed bias towards Israel and then it is ok. You are just on one side in a war.

Conversely, if you disagree with such tactics then you cannot logcally use the 'Israel's land' argument.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

they both reside in the worlds most proporous nation, i hardly think either would claim they'd have been better off otherwise.

are you sure?

Jews didnt just arive in a sudden mass immigration to the area, they were migrating there for years, and then they decide to form a state of Israel on the land of their ancestory.

Wrong, it was the stated policy of the European Zionists to import as many Jews as possible into Palestine because that would be their only chance to form a new independent country. And they were so serious about forming their own country that they considered various places around the world to do it, among them in South America and Africa. But Palestine unfortunately became their choice.

The problem with the Israel vs Palestine issue is Jerusalem. It is the Jewish capital, the same way Mecca&Medina is to Islam, and the Vatican is to Catholicism. For some odd reason palestineans(Muslims) seem to value the Jewish capitals with more fervor and obsession that the Jews. Why is that ? is jerusalem suddently a prize ? bragging rights for those who claim it ? i think tothe palestineans it is. To the Israelis(Jews) its merely the capital of their religion.

Because Al Aqsa is a very important part of Islam (go read up on it yourself) and because Jerusalem was a mostly Arab (Muslim and Christian Arabs) district until they were forced out by the new immigrants and terrorists.

goMac answer me these questions (a paragraph each if possible):

I'll take a stab at these questions.

-Was there an Israel before Islam ?

Yes, so?

-Was there an Israel before Palestine ?

Depends on how you look at it and if you believe the Bible. There were people in Palestine before the Jews entered the area but "luckily" the Jews were ordered to commit a genocide so they could have the country for themselves. The question is, do we believe the Jews were successful in committing the genocide or do we believe some might have survived?

-What is to become of the "Jewish State", where would it be relocated to ?

"Luckily" for the Zionist their plan has worked. The Jewish people will be awarded a nation that the Zionists illegally created. This we can thank the West for. But if they could just for one moment stop being greedy and accept the borders from '49 we might be getting peace in the area.

-Whats to become of all the Israelis who moved there ?

Again, they will be rewarded for the illegal deeds of the Zionists and get to stay. Unfortunately no one in Israel or the West will do the same for the real victims of the Zionist project and that is the Palestinian refugees who were forced out of their homes just because they weren't Jews.

-What of Jerusalem ? break down the Synagogues and Churches and erect Mosques ?

No, because that would be illegal according to Islam. Split Jerusalem like it was split before with the most contested area under international jurisdiction.

-What of Hammas ? Whos their next target ... Cyprus or maybe America?

It's Hamas. They don't have a history of attacking anyone but Israel and they wouldn't start attacking others. They should be dealt with in the same way as IRA (remember those Christian terrorists?) and be allowed into the political scene of Palestine.

-What message does that send to other terrorist groups ?(such as those in Chechnya, Algeria, Iraq, Egypt, Kashmir, Thailand, Bali, U.K., U.S.... who all coincidentally seem to belong to the same demographic)

Because you are ignoring all the other. Chechnya should be free like they want. Iraq should be free like it wants. The people of Kashmir should be allowed to choose who they want to belong to or if they want to be independent. The Muslim parts of Thailands just like any other parts of nations should be allowed to become independent if they want to. Oppression creates terrorism. It's as simple as that but I guess it will take another 50 years before you "righteous" people understand that. Simply stated you will f*ck up two more generations before understanding the problem.

You say it's got nothing to do with religion, i say it appears as though religion is the only common factor in all these conflicts around the world. That makes religion a huge deal to those dealing with these idiots who take hostages and blow themselves up.

And I could create a list of worse atrocities made in various parts of the world but they don't make the news that much. Checked how the situation is in Africa? There have been numerous massacres of Muslims by Christians but for some reason you either just don't know about it or you just don't care.

Muslims are pissed off cause its got nothing to do with Islam? Open your eyes and take a good look around. You have north Africans, Arabians, eastern mediterranean, eastern European, centeral asian, south asian and south east asian groups who dont eat the same food, or speak the same language and yet fight/terrorize under the same banner and have the same untranslated and unabridged text as their guide.What do YOU call that ? an unfortunate coincidence ?

Here's another fact about Islam you didn't know.

Muslims are all brothers and sisters in faith. We don't care about race or culture. If you are a Muslim you are apart of the Muslim brotherhood. It doesn't matter what colour your skin are or what culture you belong to. This is something that seems difficult to understand for many Christians. When our brothers and sisters are being oppressed and brutally murdered we get frustrated and angry. When we see that the West is still engulfed in their hypocrisy we get frustrated and angry.

You'd like us to lay down and surrender like "good Muslims" but there's not a chance of that ever happening.

Malcolm X:

Never have I witnessed such sincere hospitality and the overwhelming spirit of true brotherhood as is practiced by people of all colors and races here in this ancient Holy Land, the House of Abraham, Muhammad, and all the other Prophets of the Holy Scriptures. For the past week, I have been utterly speechless and spellbound by the graciousness I see displayed all around me by people of all colors. . . .
You may be shocked by these words coming from me. But on this pilgrimage, what I have seen, and experienced, has forced me to rearrange much of my thought-patterns previously held, and to toss aside some of my previous conclusions. This was not too difficult for me. Despite my firm convictions, I have always been a man who tries to face facts, and to accept the reality of life as new experience and new knowledge unfolds it. I have always kept an open mind, which necessary to the flexibility that must go hand in hand with every form of intelligent search for truth.

During the past eleven days here in the Muslim world, I have eaten from the same plate, drunk from the same glass, and slept in the same bed (or on the same rug) -- while praying to the same God -- with fellow Muslims, whose eyes were the bluest of blue, whose hair was the blondest of blond, and whose skin was the whitest of white. And in the words and in the actions and in the deeds of the "white" Muslims, I felt the same sincerity that I felt among the black African Muslims of Nigeria, Sudan, and Ghana.

We were truly all the same (brothers) -- because their belief in one God had removed the "white" from their minds, the 'white' from their behavior, and the 'white' from their attitude.

I could see from this, that perhaps if white Americans could accept the Oneness of God, then perhaps, too, they could accept in reality the Oneness of Man -- and cease to measure, and hinder, and harm others in terms of their "differences" in color.

With racism plaguing America like an incurable cancer, the so-called "Christian" white American heart should be more receptive to a proven solution to such a destructive problem. Perhaps it could be in time to save America from imminent disaster -- the same destruction brought upon Germany by racism that eventually destroyed the Germans themselves.

They asked me what about the Hajj had impressed me the most. . . . I said, "The brotherhood! The people of all races, color, from all over the world coming to gether as one! It has proved to me the power of the One God. . . . All ate as one, and slept as one. Everything about the pilgrimage atmosphere accented the Oneness of Man under One God.

[Hawkeye_a]

So your saying that Extremists are using Islam(or its interpretation) as justification to terrorize ? To what end ? whats their goal ? Why have so many different "races" chosen Islam as their cover for terrorizing non-muslims ?

I firmly beleive that no one is born evil. These people arent just born thirsty for blood. if they were, they wouldnt need "Jihad" as an excuse/justification to kill. it isnt just a mere coincidencce that so many conflicts around the world have a common idealogy at their core (Jihad). I think thats where the problem lies, not with Islam as a whole, but with respect to Jihad in particular or the way it is taught/interpreted by Muslims. No one thus far has addressed that issue, and hence we will continue to have to deal with these extremisits.

As far as old world borders.....this issue...Jerusalem has something a lot more important to do with it(to the people fighting over it) than mere geographic borders, politics or economics. Its got to do with religion, the supernatural, spirituality and "home"....far more important than the other reasons. Also none of the ancient powers have the will or the power to attain their ancient borders..... hence as far as empires in the timeline of history, it's Americas turn, they had their chance. (Nothing to do with the Israel vs Palestine argument btw).

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

So your saying that Extremists are using Islam(or its interpretation) as justification to terrorize ? To what end ? whats their goal ? Why have so many different "races" chosen Islam as their cover for terrorizing non-muslims ?

I firmly beleive that no one is born evil. These people arent just born thirsty for blood. if they were, they wouldnt need "Jihad" as an excuse/justification to kill. it isnt just a mere coincidencce that so many conflicts around the world have a common idealogy at their core (Jihad). I think thats where the problem lies, not with Islam as a whole, but with respect to Jihad in particular or the way it is taught/interpreted by Muslims. No one thus far has addressed that issue, and hence we will continue to have to deal with these extremisits.

You just don't get it. I'll try to put it as simple as possible to avoid confusing.

1. Islam is a religion you can find in most parts of the world.
2. In most parts of the world you have conflicts, oppression and wars.
3. In some of these conflicts, oppression and wars Muslims are involved.
4. When Muslims are involved in wars they refer to it as a Jihad. (The US call it "War on <insert latest term>", Christians call it their Crusade or Holy War and the list goes on).
5. People are fallible which means that sometimes they use the term of choice in the wrong way (OBL is not conducting a Jihad, the Christians were not in a truly Holy War, and the list goes on)
6. Jihad isn't taught like you think in Islam. You are using the Western media version of the term. Most Muslims know very well what a Jihad is and what the term implies. The average (xenophobic) Westerner doesn't because it's simply too complex for him to understand.
7. Because of this misunderstanding you (just like most Westerners) unjustly condemn Islam and Muslims for the conflicts instead of taking a look at each conflict and seeing what has caused it. You think that just because Muslims are involved in some conflicts that all Muslims support all the conflicts and the ways they are fought.

Simple enough or do you need a simpler explanation?

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by goMac

Then explain what makes Israel different than my example.

In addition to any other arguments, consider this.

How large is Israel? A few hundred square miles.

How large is the Middle East? Several million square miles.

Aren't there some Muslims in those other Middle Eastern nations willing to give their brothers, the Palestinians, a tract of land even TWICE the size of their current land - without even missing it - so that the Palestinians could leave the Israelis alone and the Israelis could leave the Palestinians alone and then the Nation of Palestine would FINALLY exist and exist in a state of peace?

Noooooo...it's MY land because it was mine since...well it was MINE before THAT! Well, if you look here you'd have to see...

What we need is a Solomon like leader to help end this. I doubt OBL is the right guy, though.

Oh, and by the way. I don't know if anyone here has noted that al Qaeda men have been reported now infiltrating into the Gaza area which was the site (just weeks ago) of protests as settlers resisted government efforts forcing them to move.

Jihad

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by segovius

To the degree that they do not share your benchmark of 'normality' as being represented by material prosperity (as they did not traditionally) they may well claim they were better off.

Certainly in cultures I am familiar with that have changed from traditional to Western I would claim they were 'better off' before.

You wouldn't be the first person from another orientation who might have a skewed perspective of the US.

Sayyid Qutb's impressions are very interesting.

Sayyid Qutb's America

Al Qaeda Inspiration Denounced U.S. Greed, Sexuality

by Robert Siegel

Robert Siegel, NPR News

Fans of the Northridge High School Grizzly Bears wrestling team show their spirit. Qutb singled out the town's love of wrestling as evidence of the "brutish" nature of American males.

“This primitiveness can be seen in the spectacle of the fans as they follow a game of football... or watch boxing matches or bloody, monstrous wrestling matches... This spectacle leaves no room for doubt as to the primitiveness of the feelings of those who are enamored with muscular strength and desire it.”
Sayyid Qutb, The America I Have Seen

“The American girl is well acquainted with her body's seductive capacity. She knows it lies in the face, and in expressive eyes, and thirsty lips. She knows seductiveness lies in the round breasts, the full buttocks, and in the shapely thighs, sleek legs -- and she shows all this and does not hide it.”
Qutb, writing in The America I Have Seen, on the American female in the middle of the 20th century



All Things Considered, May 6, 2003 · Egyptian writer and educator Sayyid Qutb spent the better half of 1949 in Greeley, Colo., studying curriculum at Colorado State Teachers College, now the University of Northern Colorado. What he saw prompted him to condemn America as a soulless, materialistic place that no Muslim should aspire to live in.

Qutb's writings would later become the theoretical basis for many radical Islamic groups of today -- including al Qaeda. Qutb increasingly saw the redemption of Egypt in the application of Islamic law.

But NPR's Robert Siegel reports that some of Qutb's conclusions may have been the result of the clash of two very different cultures. "The way Qutb saw America was sharply at odds with the way Americans saw themselves," Siegel says.

Qutb pointed out many things Americans take for granted as examples of the nation's culture of greed -- for example, the green lawns in front of homes in Greeley.

Ironically, Greeley in the middle of the 20th century was a very conservative town, where alcohol was illegal. It was a planned community, founded by Utopian idealists looking to make a garden out of the dry plains north of Denver using irrigation. The founding fathers of Greeley were by all reports temperate, religious and peaceful people.

But Qutb wasn't convinced. "America in 1949 was not a natural fit for Qutb," Siegel says. "He was a man of color, and the United States was still largely segregated. He was an Arab -- American public opinion favored Israel, which had come into existence just a year before."

In the college literary magazine, Qutb wrote of his disappointment:

"When we came here to appeal to England for our rights, the world helped England against the justice (sic). When we came here to appeal against Jews, the world helped the Jews against the justice. During the war between Arab and Jews, the world helped the Jews, too."

Qutb wrote about Greeley in his book, The America I Have Seen. He offered a distorted chronology of American history: "He informed his Arab readers that it began with bloody wars against the Indians, which he claimed were still underway in 1949," Siegel says. "He wrote that before independence, American colonists pushed Latinos south toward Central America -- even though the American colonists themselves had not yet pushed west of the Mississippi... Then came the Revolution, which he called 'a destructive war led by George Washington.'"

When it came to culture, Qutb denounced the primitive jazz music and loud clothing, the obsession with body image and perfection, and the bald sexuality. The American female was naturally a temptress, acting her part in a sexual system Qutb described as "biological":

"The American girl is well acquainted with her body's seductive capacity. She knows it lies in the face, and in expressive eyes, and thirsty lips. She knows seductiveness lies in the round breasts, the full buttocks, and in the shapely thighs, sleek legs -- and she shows all this and does not hide it."

Even an innocent dance in a church basement is proof of animalistic American sexuality:

"They danced to the tunes of the gramophone, and the dance floor was replete with tapping feet, enticing legs, arms wrapped around waists, lips pressed to lips, and chests pressed to chests. The atmosphere was full of desire..."

To Qutb, women were vixens, and men were sports-obsessed brutes: "This primitiveness can be seen in the spectacle of the fans as they follow a game of football... or watch boxing matches or bloody, monstrous wrestling matches... This spectacle leaves no room for doubt as to the primitiveness of the feelings of those who are enamored with muscular strength and desire it."

Egyptian political scientist Mamoun Fandy tells Siegel that Qutb's critique of America was in many ways a critique of Egyptian society. "Fandy says Qutb was warning Egyptians of the West, of modernity, of things they were very attracted to," Siegel says. As for Qutb's revulsion over American sexuality, Fandy says there is no evidence that Qutb ever had a sexual relationship in his life.

Qutb became a leader of the fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood on his return to Egypt. After the overthrow of the monarchy in 1953, he was once considered for a Cabinet post. But he was later accused of plotting against the government and executed in 1966.

"In his prison writings, Qutb equated governments like Egypt's with the pre-Islamic tribes of Arabia. They represented a state of ignorance -- Islam offered liberation," Siegel says. "Among his avid readers were the men who went on to found al Qaeda.

"As for the town? Greeley, Colo., remained conservative -- But since 1969, it's no longer dry."

[segovius]

Originally Posted by mojo2

You wouldn't be the first person from another orientation who might have a skewed perspective of the US.

Sayyid Qutb's impressions are very interesting.

I don't know what you mean by 'another orientation'. I'm Welsh and have lived in the US and the Middle East so I suppose I could pass for 'normal' on a good day.

Qutb is very interesting. Until he became radicalized his views were very similar to many right-wing Americans. Both saw the US as being weakened by immorality, both saw the US as a culture based on 'machismo' (for want of a better word).

Obviously both groups drew differing conclusions as to what this implied and what should be done about it but the point is that both groups - Qutb and associated left-wing intellectuals and right-wing intellectuals and thinkers in the US - were observing the same phenomena. Phenomena that actually existed.

We will never know what path Qutb's life would have taken had he not been arrested and subjected to ongoing torture but clearly in his case, the human right's abuses he suffered confirmed his opinions about the nature of the West and formed his future plans to conduct terrorist activities.

Interestingly, the West (and the US in particular) were behind the scenes working together with the regimes that opposed Qutb's movement - and still are. Of course they lie about this to their populace.

An interesting example would be Syria. To Joe Public (see any thread at random for examples) Syria are the joint 'evildoers' with Iran and a major terrorist threat. In reality, Syria is the place where suspects are secretly shipped to be tortured by the US under a covert agreement with the Damascus regime.

Of course Damascus has been imprisoning, torturing and killing jihadis - what you would call the terrorists who need to be eradicated - as well as innocent members of the public, for many years. Doubtless you know of the infamous Hama massacre - well, guess what - that was Qutb's organization and fighters that got massacred.

I'm not saying what is right and wrong here (though we can discuss that elsewhere if you like) but merely use it as an example of the hypocrisy of the West.

The West keeps it's own people in the dark and constantly feeds them lies - lies about what exactly they are doing, lies about the war, lies about who is and isn't a threat, lies about Islam and on and on....

The East, being on the receiving end of these lies knows the score. The Iraqi insurgents for example must laugh when they here Bush or Blair trotting out the 'we don't talk to terrorists' line. They talked to the IRA and they talk to the insurgents.

You are being lied to continually - they are playing you like a violin. In the East no-one ever believed leaders like Asad or Saddam. We need to start seeing through the smoke-screens.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

You just don't get it. I'll try to put it as simple as possible to avoid confusing.

1. Islam is a religion you can find in most parts of the world.
2. In most parts of the world you have conflicts, oppression and wars.
3. In some of these conflicts, oppression and wars Muslims are involved.
4. When Muslims are involved in wars they refer to it as a Jihad. (The US call it "War on <insert latest term>", Christians call it their Crusade or Holy War and the list goes on).
5. People are fallible which means that sometimes they use the term of choice in the wrong way (OBL is not conducting a Jihad, the Christians were not in a truly Holy War, and the list goes on)
6. Jihad isn't taught like you think in Islam. You are using the Western media version of the term. Most Muslims know very well what a Jihad is and what the term implies. The average (xenophobic) Westerner doesn't because it's simply too complex for him to understand.
7. Because of this misunderstanding you (just like most Westerners) unjustly condemn Islam and Muslims for the conflicts instead of taking a look at each conflict and seeing what has caused it. You think that just because Muslims are involved in some conflicts that all Muslims support all the conflicts and the ways they are fought.

Simple enough or do you need a simpler explanation?

Thats just it though.
-How many groups/nations goto war using the "Crusade" as an excuse ?
-An even better question, would the Catholic/Christian community even support such a notion after the history we already have ?
-U.S.'s war on his n that, is just that war...economics, politics, resources...NOT a major world religion. And even withthat you mave millions opposed to it, protesting freely.
-I havent heard of any mass protest against Jihads or terrorists in the Muslim world. WHY ?!!?!?!? Is it the meaning ? the interpretition ? what ? why hasnt anyone influential such as the Kings n Sultans and Sheiks said/done anything substantial about it ? could it be that they feel it's actually justified ? (i think so).
-I like your quote "Islam is a religion you can find in most parts of the world". Muslims live freely in every part of the world different citizenships, allowed to vote, etc,etc....why isnt the Muslim world (N.Africa, Arabia, central Asia, South Asia) as welcoming to the rest of us the way we have accepted muslims into our communities ? Are we not upto standard cause of our faith ? Do they suffer from a superiority complex ? If we're all the same, why is a non-muslim in the muslim world not afforded the same basic rights a muslim is afforded in the free world ? Culture you say ? Influenced by what ? (hint:religion)
-I am not condeming all muslims in general. We are in our most basic form....human. When i was in Dubai, i heard of the students at one of the universities organizing a protest/march against the U.S. led war in Iraq. Just a big show of course. But never even a whisper against Hammas, Al-Quadea, OBL, etc.

Whats the point of this ? Crusades...centuries ago, acheivements ? held the muslim invaders at bay from invading Europe(forcefully) and tarnished the ideals of christianity in doing so. The result.....look at the free world. We accept Muslims Arabs Hindus japaneeses, etc,etc,etc,etc,etc....as citizens with all rights provided. So were the crusades worth it ? if the chrisendom of today is the result, i say yes. The fact that so many Muslims migrate to our shores (US, Europe(why is Turkey so desperate to join?), Australia) is testimony to the fact that we've done something right....maybe christianity has something to do with that success ? maybe intolerance in the muslim world has some connection to Islam seeing as how the fundamental difference between the two civilizations is religion and the general code of conduct of each society. As a Catholic "Thou shall not kill" makes no exception, leaves no room for different interpretion(since its in plain english as opposedto an ancient language), whereas "Jihad" is very apparently mistranslated or misinterpreted, and sadly noone in the muslim world has taken the reins to taming that beast(extremests), instead they try to say "Oh theyre not muslim".

Another example...KKK "burning cross", obvious christian affiliation.....look at the way the rest of the christian community is ACTIVELY opposed to that group. Quit balming the conflict on Israel or America, it's obvious the muslim community has to deal with it's own issues if it wants to exist in the world of today.

But thats just my opinion. it's easy for you guys to point fingers to Israel and America.....guess whatwe already have people on this side criticizing and analyzing and acting on those issues. What have the muslim communities done about the warring/killing factions on their sides ? nothing.

[Super Glitcher]

Originally Posted by segovius

It means taking land off the original inhabitants and slaughtering them - actually, if you take the Bible as historical truth (always dangerous) then you have the record of one of the most extensive systematic campaigns of genocide until the 20th century.

That's the largest load of I've ever heard! Genocide???

If you'd ever read the Bible bro then you'd know how rediculous this is.
The Bible is not a military campaign and has never once singled out a
human 'enemy' - unlike another book I know.

Please, if you're going to make claims like that, provide some
scriptural reference to prove it - expecting people to take your word
for it is pretty weak.

goMac, if you've got some facts lets hear them. This isn't the time to
say that fact merely exists. Show me the beef or cap it.

And get your facts straight - 'we' never made anyone leave anywhere.
It was the Arabs monarchies who made the Palestinians leave Israel.

[segovius]

Originally Posted by Super Glitcher

That's the largest load of I've ever heard! Genocide???

If you'd ever read the Bible bro then you'd know how rediculous this is.
The Bible is not a military campaign and has never once singled out a
human 'enemy' - unlike another book I know.

Please, if you're going to make claims like that, provide some
scriptural reference to prove it - expecting people to take your word
for it is pretty weak.

Ok.

"The seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them." Deuteronomy 7:1-2

"Do not leave alive anything that breaths. Completely destroy them...as the Lord your God has commanded you." Deuteronomy 20:16

“Thus says the Lord of hosts, “I will punish the Amalekites for what they did in opposing the Israelities when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey” 1 Samuel 15

"So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. And Joshua smote them from Kadesh-barnea even unto Gaza, and all the country of Goshen, even unto Gibeon." Joshua 10:40-41

"And they warred against the Midianites, as the Lord commanded moses, and they slew all the [adult] males. And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones...And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses...And Moses was angry with the officers of the host And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Ba'laam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the female children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." Numbers 31:3

"Observe what I command you this day. Behold, I am driving out from before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. Take heed to yourself, lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land where you are going, lest it be a snare in your midst. But you shall destroy their altars, break their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images (For you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God." Exodus 34: 11-14

"You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before you. Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight; your enemies shall fall by the sword before you. For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful, multiply you and confirm My covenant with you. You shall eat the old harvest, and clear out the old because of the new." Leviticus: 7-9

And on......

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

Thats just it though.
-How many groups/nations goto war using the "Crusade" as an excuse ?
-An even better question, would the Catholic/Christian community even support such a notion after the history we already have ?
-U.S.'s war on his n that, is just that war...economics, politics, resources...NOT a major world religion. And even withthat you mave millions opposed to it, protesting freely.
-I havent heard of any mass protest against Jihads or terrorists in the Muslim world. WHY ?!!?!?!? Is it the meaning ? the interpretition ? what ? why hasnt anyone influential such as the Kings n Sultans and Sheiks said/done anything substantial about it ? could it be that they feel it's actually justified ? (i think so).
-I like your quote "Islam is a religion you can find in most parts of the world". Muslims live freely in every part of the world different citizenships, allowed to vote, etc,etc....why isnt the Muslim world (N.Africa, Arabia, central Asia, South Asia) as welcoming to the rest of us the way we have accepted muslims into our communities ? Are we not upto standard cause of our faith ? Do they suffer from a superiority complex ? If we're all the same, why is a non-muslim in the muslim world not afforded the same basic rights a muslim is afforded in the free world ? Culture you say ? Influenced by what ? (hint:religion)
-I am not condeming all muslims in general. We are in our most basic form....human. When i was in Dubai, i heard of the students at one of the universities organizing a protest/march against the U.S. led war in Iraq. Just a big show of course. But never even a whisper against Hammas, Al-Quadea, OBL, etc.

You're not understanding it. Let me try and boil it down to simplest terms for you.

The Muslims consider themselves one huge group (which they are). The attack on Palestine and the turning of it into Israel was considered by them an attack on them all. This is why religion is involved. People like OBL take advantage of this and use propaganda to scare people into his ranks. If you solve the Israel/Palestine problem, you take away OBL's reason for being within the Muslim community.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by segovius

I don't know what you mean by 'another orientation'. I'm Welsh and have lived in the US and the Middle East so I suppose I could pass for 'normal' on a good day.

Qutb is very interesting. Until he became radicalized his views were very similar to many right-wing Americans. Both saw the US as being weakened by immorality, both saw the US as a culture based on 'machismo' (for want of a better word).

Obviously both groups drew differing conclusions as to what this implied and what should be done about it but the point is that both groups - Qutb and associated left-wing intellectuals and right-wing intellectuals and thinkers in the US - were observing the same phenomena. Phenomena that actually existed.

We will never know what path Qutb's life would have taken had he not been arrested and subjected to ongoing torture but clearly in his case, the human right's abuses he suffered confirmed his opinions about the nature of the West and formed his future plans to conduct terrorist activities.

Interestingly, the West (and the US in particular) were behind the scenes working together with the regimes that opposed Qutb's movement - and still are. Of course they lie about this to their populace.

An interesting example would be Syria. To Joe Public (see any thread at random for examples) Syria are the joint 'evildoers' with Iran and a major terrorist threat. In reality, Syria is the place where suspects are secretly shipped to be tortured by the US under a covert agreement with the Damascus regime.

Of course Damascus has been imprisoning, torturing and killing jihadis - what you would call the terrorists who need to be eradicated - as well as innocent members of the public, for many years. Doubtless you know of the infamous Hama massacre - well, guess what - that was Qutb's organization and fighters that got massacred.

I'm not saying what is right and wrong here (though we can discuss that elsewhere if you like) but merely use it as an example of the hypocrisy of the West.

The West keeps it's own people in the dark and constantly feeds them lies - lies about what exactly they are doing, lies about the war, lies about who is and isn't a threat, lies about Islam and on and on....

The East, being on the receiving end of these lies knows the score. The Iraqi insurgents for example must laugh when they here Bush or Blair trotting out the 'we don't talk to terrorists' line. They talked to the IRA and they talk to the insurgents.

You are being lied to continually - they are playing you like a violin. In the East no-one ever believed leaders like Asad or Saddam. We need to start seeing through the smoke-screens.

Here in the USA a person is free to do pretty much what they want within reason and as long as it doesn't violate the law or hurt the feelings of others they can just live pretty much as they want.

In this regard there are people who enjoy veal. Veal scaloppini, veal chops or cutlets. Veal, the FIRST white meat. I don't care for it. Oh, the taste is ok, I guess. Though I can't really tell much difference between it and regular beef and when I do notice a difference, I gotta say I prefer beef. But the way veal is produced is kinda sickening to me. It's a strange and twisted perversion of life that is uncomfortable and painful and devoid of ANY of the pleasures any bull or cow might enjoy. I can imagine the animal's only relief is that he doesn't live very long.

But there are people who absolutely LOVE veal and prefer it over any other food. Either they love the taste so much that they can overlook the perverse imitation of life it is forced to endure or maybe they get a thrill from knowing this sick twisted existence was forced on this animal just so they can enjoy this Veal Picatta.

All I know is it's a sickly beast and it's sickening to eat it.

BEEF vs VEAL

BEEF: Raised to yield biggest healthiest specimens

VEAL: Removed from mothers at age of 1 day. Milk fed to ensure whiteness of meat but this often causes anemia. Their short lives are spent chained in small wooden pens so narrow they can't turn around and are forced to stand and lie on uncomfortable, slatted floors.

Even though there are people who LOVE it and would eat it every day if they could, it's not my preference. And furthermore, even though this is a country where a man can do whatever a man wants to do, within reason, there are certain things that just strike you as being ****-eyed.

segovius, I accept your praise of Qutb as one man's choice. But I don't think you'd really be able to hold up his pinched and (as you allude), tortured existence as ANYONE'S model of moderation or objectivity. And from this man, of all those whose writings and philosophies might have merit, you and OBL have chosen this little man's twisted perspectives to swallow?

AMERICA vs QUTB

Wrestling - Brutish
Football - Primitive
Boxing & Wrestling - Bloody monstrous spectacles
America - Soulless, materialistic place
Green lawns - Sign of greed
Indian wars - Still underway in 1949
Latinos - Pushed to the South by colonists before 1776
Revolution - A destructive war led by George Washington
Jazz - Denounced
Loud clothing - Denounced
Obsession with body image - Denounced
Bald sexuality - !!!
American females - Temptresses
Innocent Church dance - Proof of animalistic American sexuality

"There is no evidence that Qutb ever had a sexual relationship in his life."

You can choose your own heroes. You can worship as you please. But the idea of following someone who sees things with such a skewed eye seems wrong. Anyone who celebrates Qutb's
****-eyed views enjoys that which is the product of an unnatural life.

"There is no evidence that Qutb ever had a sexual relationship in his life."

[segovius]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Here in the USA a person is free to do pretty much what they want within reason and as long as it doesn't violate the law or hurt the feelings of others they can just live pretty much as they want.

In this regard there are people who enjoy veal. Veal scaloppini, veal chops or cutlets. Veal, the FIRST white meat. I don't care for it. Oh, the taste is ok, I guess. Though I can't really tell much difference between it and regular beef and when I do notice a difference, I gotta say I prefer beef. But the way veal is produced is kinda sickening to me. It's a strange and twisted perversion of life that is uncomfortable and painful and devoid of ANY of the pleasures any bull or cow might enjoy. I can imagine the animal's only relief is that he doesn't live very long.

But there are people who absolutely LOVE veal and prefer it over any other food. Either they love the taste so much that they can overlook the perverse imitation of life it is forced to endure or maybe they get a thrill from knowing this sick twisted existence was forced on this animal just so they can enjoy this Veal Picatta.

All I know is it's a sickly beast and it's sickening to eat it.



Even though there are people who LOVE it and would eat it every day if they could, it's not my preference. And furthermore, even though this is a country where a man can do whatever a man wants to do, within reason, there are certain things that just strike you as being ****-eyed.

segovius, I accept your praise of Qutb as one man's choice. But I don't think you'd really be able to hold up his pinched and (as you allude), tortured existence as ANYONE'S model of moderation or objectivity. And from this man, of all those whose writings and philosophies might have merit, you and OBL have chosen this little man's twisted perspectives to swallow?



You can choose your own heroes. You can worship as you please. But the idea of following someone who sees things with such a skewed eye seems wrong. Anyone who celebrates Qutb's
****-eyed views enjoys that which is the product of an unnatural life.

"There is no evidence that Qutb ever had a sexual relationship in his life."

I never cared much for veal myself - osso bucco is ok I guess if the chef knows what they're doing.

I don't want you to get the wrong idea of my opinion of Qutb btw, it is his primary observations that I see as being correct - and conversely I would also see Strauss's observations (which, being of the same thing, are virtually identical) as correct. It is the later interpretations by Qutb and 'Neocon' thinkers that I would disagree with.

Whilst the problem is the same as both groups state it, my solution would be different. I'm just saying I'm not in the camp that denies or doesn't see the problem, that's all.

[segovius]

forgot to say one more thing: Qutb's views are interesting in a psychoanalytical way. Much like Freud he had an obsession with certain aspects of sex.

Freud tended to focus on incest-related issues and particularly mother/father figures and Qutb was more zoned in on 'hussies' and 'temptresses' and seemed strangely drawn to the more home-erotic elements of Western society. Of course, both men were talking primarily about themselves but that in no way devalues their insight - in fact, imo it adds to it. A thief knows thieves better than law abiding citizens and maybe it takes someone fro the ranks to describe the illness in the psychological arena.

In any event, Qutb's stunted sexuality is on no way representative of Islamic culture and no such link can be made. Islam does not have any hang-ups about sex (though individuals may do - particularly those from male-oriented tribal backgrounds) and it is not regarded as 'dirty' or a 'sin'. In fact in certain parts of the ME there is what can only be described as an ongoing free for all, should one be so inclined to partake of that sort of thing.

[mojo2]

segovius, I guess what I'm trying to say is that if Qutb can be wrong about so many other things, fundamental things that transcend culture and nationality, one must guess that this 'distinctiveness' didn't stop at the sexual. They probably influence his political thought and if everything else about the man is at least slightly off kilter could there be ONE thing about his being that was right and true and moderate and prudent and sufficiently not too far to one side or the other to be seen as something to follow?

Or, is it that because he IS such a tortured soul that vinegar oozes out of his pen instead of ink and it is that acidic quality which attracts?

To gauge a man look at his friends, his family and his heroes.

OBL admires this guy. (!!!???!!!)

Dagnabbit! Now I may have to read this guy's writings. Ugh!

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

As a Catholic "Thou shall not kill" makes no exception, leaves no room for different interpretion...

Perhaps it's time for you to start studying your own holy text?

"So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. (Revelation 2:22-23)"

Want more examples?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Super Glitcher

That's the largest load of I've ever heard! Genocide???

If you'd ever read the Bible bro then you'd know how rediculous this is.
The Bible is not a military campaign and has never once singled out a
human 'enemy' - unlike another book I know.

Do you guys even read your holy books anymore???

When the LORD your God gives you rest from all the enemies around you in the land he is giving you to possess as an inheritance, you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven. Do not forget!

Deuteronomy 25:19

And if you are Jewish it's your 598 mitzvot to wipe out the descendants of Amalek.

And get your facts straight - 'we' never made anyone leave anywhere.
It was the Arabs monarchies who made the Palestinians leave Israel.

I don't know if I should laugh or cry when seeing that there are still people out there who believe this myth......

[segovius]

Originally Posted by mojo2

segovius, I guess what I'm trying to say is that if Qutb can be wrong about so many other things, fundamental things that transcend culture and nationality, one must guess that this 'distinctiveness' didn't stop at the sexual. They probably influence his political thought and if everything else about the man is at least slightly off kilter could there be ONE thing about his being that was right and true and moderate and prudent and sufficiently not too far to one side or the other to be seen as something to follow?

Or, is it that because he IS such a tortured soul that vinegar oozes out of his pen instead of ink and it is that acidic quality which attracts?

To gauge a man look at his friends, his family and his heroes.

OBL admires this guy. (!!!???!!!)

Dagnabbit! Now I may have to read this guy's writings. Ugh!

Have you seen Adam Curtis's film The Power of Nightmares ?

Lots about Qutb. There's a torrent somewhere but don't know if it's cool to post it here.

Guardian article

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by segovius

Have you seen Adam Curtis's film The Power of Nightmares ?

Lots about Qutb. There's a torrent somewhere but don't know if it's cool to post it here.

Guardian article

I've seen it two or three times and wanted to see it again but couldn't remember the name of it and so I settled for another PBS doc on Al Qaeda.

MUCH thanks for reading my mind and answering.

[von Wrangell]

Qutb's work before he got subjected to torture and humiliation was very interesting. Recommended reading IMO.

Milestones was written after the torture and humiliation but still makes for interesting reading.

(before some panic I'm not stating that I agree nor disagree with his work, just that it's interesting)

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Perhaps it's time for you to start studying your own holy text?

"So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. (Revelation 2:22-23)"

Want more examples?

Good choice. Book of Revelations, one of the books i have actually read from the Bible. Coincidentally, it's about the coming of the AntiChrist and the end of the world. According to that book there will be loss of life, at the hand of God , not MAN(aka terrorists acting on behalf of their religion/God).

Like i said, Catholics follow a simple set of rules, 10 commandments. one being "Thou shall not kill". it dosent say , you can make exceptions for "infidels" or leave itself open for interpretation.

I am not denying our rather violent past. but honestly the things you being up took place more than a few centuries ago, and we are not the same, we have opened upto change in many aspects of our faith/religion. Islam is unchanged...in it's practice or principles. Also i am referring to NOW the 21st century AD. Most of the world religions exist in relative peace except, apparently for Islam. Our rather "shameful" past is no justification for Islam to have it's own in this day and age. Do yourself a favour and learn from it the way we have tried to and succeeded in some degree.We arent perfect, but at LEAST we arent using religion as a reason/justification/motive to kill civilians. And if anyone tries to, we do our best as a community to shut them down. Now it's time for you to do the same, if of course killings of civilians in the nam of your religion means anyting to you. If anything, you'll be promoting the image of your religion, which cant be a bad thing. So DO SOMETHING about it. Dont argue islam says this n that, cause whetehr or not you admit it, Muslim-islamic terrorists are using YOUR religion as an excuse to murder people.

Cheers

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

Good choice. Book of Revelations, one of the books i have actually read from the Bible. Coincidentally, it's about the coming of the AntiChrist and the end of the world. According to that book there will be loss of life, at the hand of God , not MAN(aka terrorists acting on behalf of their religion/God).

Like i said, Catholics follow a simple set of rules, 10 commandments. one being "Thou shall not kill". it dosent say , you can make exceptions for "infidels" or leave itself open for interpretation.

I am not denying our rather violent past. but honestly the things you being up took place more than a few centuries ago, and we are not the same, we have opened upto change in many aspects of our faith/religion. Islam is unchanged...in it's practice or principles. Also i am referring to NOW the 21st century AD. Most of the world religions exist in relative peace except, apparently for Islam. Our rather "shameful" past is no justification for Islam to have it's own in this day and age. Do yourself a favour and learn from it the way we have tried to and succeeded in some degree.We arent perfect, but at LEAST we arent using religion as a reason/justification/motive to kill civilians. And if anyone tries to, we do our best as a community to shut them down. Now it's time for you to do the same, if of course killings of civilians in the nam of your religion means anyting to you. If anything, you'll be promoting the image of your religion, which cant be a bad thing. So DO SOMETHING about it. Dont argue islam says this n that, cause whetehr or not you admit it, Muslim-islamic terrorists are using YOUR religion as an excuse to murder people.

Cheers

Dear God......

1. You just don't see how certain people could use the above verse to kill people.

2. The only thing you are doing is trying to pin Islam as the reason for all evil happening in this world.

3. You are trying to pin Islam as some backwards religion who doesn't belong in today's world.

The only thing you've shown is that Christians (your version of Christians that is) are fickle and can't follow their own religion to the letter. You are just one more example of the holiday believer................

[Super Glitcher]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Do you guys even read your holy books anymore???

When the LORD your God gives you rest from all the enemies around you in the land he is giving you to possess as an inheritance, you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven. Do not forget!

Deuteronomy 25:19

And if you are Jewish it's your 598 mitzvot to wipe out the descendants of Amalek.

I don't know if I should laugh or cry when seeing that there are still people out there who believe this myth......

These are all messages of deliverence from oppressors bro!
Not conquest. Try reading it in context.

If it's a myth, prove it wrong.

[Super Glitcher]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Dear God......

1. You just don't see how certain people could use the above verse to kill people.

2. The only thing you are doing is trying to pin Islam as the reason for all evil happening in this world.

3. You are trying to pin Islam as some backwards religion who doesn't belong in today's world.

The only thing you've shown is that Christians (your version of Christians that is) are fickle and can't follow their own religion to the letter. You are just one more example of the holiday believer................

In response to no.1 : Great point! But you don't see anyone taking
this verse out of context and using it to kill people. But, on the other
hand.... let's not turn a blind-eye

This is a great opportunity to drop the 'pull the thorn from you're own
eye before you try to help your brother' verse.

2. no one has made that claim. ever. some lofty exagerations going around!

The fact that you can try and judge someone else's faith doesn't say
much about your character either.

[Super Glitcher]

Originally Posted by segovius

"The seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them." Deuteronomy 7:1-2

Read the context. This is directly after the Israelites had been enslaved for 400 years
by the Egyptians.

Originally Posted by segovius

"Do not leave alive anything that breaths. Completely destroy them...as the Lord your God has commanded you." Deuteronomy 20:16

See above.

Originally Posted by segovius

Thus says the Lord of hosts, “I will punish the Amalekites for what they did in opposing the Israelities when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey” 1 Samuel 15

Try reading the verse before this quote:
"This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt."

This is in response to an attack on Israel. Hardly genocide.
Read the context.

Originally Posted by segovius

"So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. And Joshua smote them from Kadesh-barnea even unto Gaza, and all the country of Goshen, even unto Gibeon." Joshua 10:40-41

Again, read the context:
5 Then the five kings of the Amorites—the kings of Jerusalem, Hebron, Jarmuth, Lachish and Eglon—joined forces. They moved up with all their troops and took up positions against Gibeon and attacked it.
6 The Gibeonites then sent word to Joshua in the camp at Gilgal: "Do not abandon your servants. Come up to us quickly and save us! Help us, because all the Amorite kings from the hill country have joined forces against us."

Originally Posted by segovius

"And they warred against the Midianites, as the Lord commanded moses, and they slew all the [adult] males. And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones...And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses...And Moses was angry with the officers of the host And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Ba'laam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the female children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." Numbers 31:3

To long to post... but again.. READ THE CONTEXT.
This time, Numbers 25.

Originally Posted by segovius

"Observe what I command you this day. Behold, I am driving out from before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. Take heed to yourself, lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land where you are going, lest it be a snare in your midst. But you shall destroy their altars, break their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images (For you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God." Exodus 34: 11-14

Sad example of genocide. This is in response to rampant worship of
false gods and idols - ever hear of the golden calf? Horrible example...

Originally Posted by segovius

"You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before you. Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight; your enemies shall fall by the sword before you. For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful, multiply you and confirm My covenant with you. You shall eat the old harvest, and clear out the old because of the new." Leviticus: 7-9

You haven't listed a chapter here, and honestly given the
your last example I can't say that I expect much..

You say:

Originally Posted by segovius

actually, if you take the Bible as historical truth (always dangerous) then you have the record of one of the most extensive systematic campaigns of genocide until the 20th century.

Where did you learn that? Maybe it's time you start questioning
what is fed to you, or at least look it up for yourself.
What, are you guys just doing blind searches on a net bible or something?

Really, really embarrassing. Please do yourself a favor and read
the book- this is your soul that's one the line. I'd at least go and
read it for myself, otherwise you're letting someone else choose
for you. Even if you don't change your mind, you'd at least have
a bit of credibility..

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Super Glitcher

These are all messages of deliverence from oppressors bro!
Not conquest. Try reading it in context.

If it's a myth, prove it wrong.

The context really doesn't matter. It's always a genocide.

I've spent my time before proving it wrong but most of the time it doesn't matter how well you prove it. You guys will always believe that people just packed up their belongings and decided to leave their homes.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

Also, i think i can finally articulate what ive been trying to say through this thread.

Muslims(at least the ones in here) claim the Quaran and Islam is "perfect". My rebutal is:
How can it be perfect when it leaves itself open to such interpretations that the Taliban, Al Quadea and JI(Indonesia) and Hammas seem to abide by TODAY? in particular this notion of "Jihad". Surely even making a reservation to goto war isnt something a "holy" text should contain in a first place, unless it condones killing of others. Therefore, how can the Quaran unabridged and not translated (interpreted in any which way) be any better than any of the other world religions, that for the most part, condem killing of any kind ?

Also heard on the BBC that Budhists MONKS have become the target of muslim extremists and rebels in the south of Thailand. Add that to your list of Kashmir, E.Timor, Bosnia, Israel, Cyprus, Chechnya, Bali and Kurdishstan. Thats just a fact, you have these people "interpreting" the Quaran in such a dangerous way, and the fact that the Quaran leaves itself open to such interpretations...just makes it an imperfect document (like any other) to me.

Cheers

That's the point really, Islam isn't perfect and was never, ok, except for the years that prophet Muhammad lived and the revelations were still flowing. Fact is humans are not perfect, far from it, and add to that the always active deceptions and seductions of the devil, it's no wonder that deviations from the quranic message occured. Same goes with christianity and the message of Jesus' gospel, and same goes for judaism and the message of Moses' Torah and David's Psalms.

Deviations always occurred, sometimes more and sometimes less.

That said, war and killing on the battlefield was always allowed in God's message regardless in which religion that message was revealed, if it serves the ideal of a just war, in the sense of liberating people that are oppressed and persecuted just because they believe in the one and only God and don't want to give in to polytheism, or if it serves the ideal of selfdefense, ie. a war started by enemies.

In the old testament you will find a lot of warfare being conducted by Moses, David and Salomon.

You might argue that Jesus didn't call for war in the gospels. But then again the jews, of which he was one, too, weren't being attacked and lived relatively secure in the roman empire with full rights to conduct their worship, so that there was no reason for a defensive war, but much more important he didn't condemn Moses and the other prophets for their God-ordered warfare, and he was sent by God not to abolish the previous revelations but to confirm, clarify, update and extend them to gentiles.

You might have grown with the ideas of pacifism and mixed them in with your religion, which is fine but claiming that a religious document is not perfect because it has rules and regulations for defensive or liberating wars is pretty condescending and naive at the same time.

Quite to the contrary, because the Quran has regulations and rules for warfare it is a perfect document.

These regulations call for defensive war until the opponent stops fighting, and calls for making peace if the opponent seeks peace, and calls for killing only those that fight, ie. only armed fighters on the battlefield... anything beyond that is transgression and sinful.


Power corrupts, though, and since dynasties took the role of governing the islamic world, instead of a ruler elected by the elderly with the criterias of righteousness, faith, sense of justice and mercy as well as wisdom in mind, the longing for worldy riches overshadowed any religious motives. In that sense these dynasties were secularists just taking religion as a cover/legitimation...

Taliesin

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by Super Glitcher

These are all messages of deliverence from oppressors bro!
Not conquest. Try reading it in context.

One person's oppression is another person's genocide. Whether or not the groups cited were freeing themselves "from oppression" the point was made: Namely that in the Bible are numerous examples of God directing people to destroy another people. That was the original charge you assigned to him: Come up with examples in the Bible where violent destruction of whole peoples was commanded by God. He provided those examples. Simply because God chose to order these acts of wholesale destruction on behalf of his chosen people is irrelevant; The actions were ordered and, according to some detailed verses, carried out with extreme thoroughness.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

Ok. but thats just it. how do you explaina ll this conflict and all these extremists who target civilians delibrately ?

Look at the world today, look at all the conflicts....including those involving the U.S. Most if not all the conflicts involve muslims (im sad to say). Obviously there's a common element thats causing all this animosity against the west(US, Europe, Australia) and the East(Hindus, Budhists, Russian). So whats the motivating and distinguishing factor here ? lets narrow it down.

Economics ? Social ? Military ? But the extremists claim releigion. if it was about money or resources, etc they'd be a lot more extremists out there who arent Muslim.

So whats the best explination you can come up with ? seriously....given all the conflicts in the world today.... whats the explination ? and whats at the root of that ?

Cheers

(At this point...im open to a discussion...but thats my analysis of the current state of affairs and the apparent conclusion i have managed to come up with, given some the logic i have outlined above)

One point of view would analyse all the violent events happening around the world as muslims commiting the violence following their jihad-ideology.
Another point of view would analyse all the violence occuring around the world as being commited by western armies, secret agencies, paramilitary units, of which only a minority is being reported in the media for obvious reasons (ie. secrecy, denials...).

If I would look at the last century and the five years of this one, I would easily find western, if you want christian people and countries bathing in violence against each other and others way in the majority: Germany against world1, England, France, Russia and arabs against ottoman-empire, genocide of armenians,Germany against world2, genocide of jews, Japan against neighbours, US against Japan, nuking of japanese towns, North- against South-Corea, US against North-Corea, China against US, Russia against itself and neighbouring countries, US against Vietnam, US against Cambodia, Cambodia against itself, Russia against Afghanistan, US and islamic mujahedeens against Russia, western world and Iraq against Iran, Iraq against itself, western world and Iran against Iraq, Iraq against Kuwait, UN against Iraq, Russia against Chechnya, Serbia against Bosnia, islamistic mujahedeens against US, US against Afghanistan, US against Iraq, islamistic mujahedeens against Spain, islamistic mujahedeens against Morocco, islamistic mujahedeens against Saudi-Arabia, islamistic mujahedeens against Britain, islamistic mujahedeens against Iraq.

Just because you are able to tag these occurings of violence with names like ww1/ww2, cold-war, WoT... doesn't distract from the fact that the vast majority of violence on this planet is being committed by non-muslims.

The only difference is that violent islamists are relatively powerless and use therefore spectacular attacks and media-compatible suicide-bombings to multiply the effect on the civilian population of their supposed enemies.

Taliesin

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Next to them there is a chair and a place setting for the "REAL" Muslims or MODERATE Muslims. But there is no one sitting there. If there is someone there they appear to be strangely absent, missing, invisible, moot or perhaps they're just demonstrating their characteristic submission so well as to make them effectively absent.

As much as I dislike saying it, when it comes having made a better case of being a real group worth mentioning and recognizing, the liberal/progressive/left have AT LEAST represented the ideal challenge issued by JFK, to "stand up and be counted."

Not quite possible as in the west, as most muslims are living in secondworld-countries with dictatorships that are supported by the west for obvious reasons and that prohibit any public activity, be it of religious, political or humanitarian sort.

The only fora they have to use their free speech, at least in some islamic countries, are the mosques, and more and more of these mosques are financed by Saudi-Arabia's wahabists, that adhere to a discriminating and dumbed down version of Islam.

So, even if there were mosques that develop an original and uncorrupted version of Islam, you are hardly able to hear from it as you are not attending these mosques and public announcement is seldomly allowed under repressive regimes. That leaves only muslims in the west, but those are often discredited by both westerners and radical muslims in the west and east, because they are not seen as real muslims, but more like westernized muslims...

Taliesin

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by mojo2

I don't want to be FORCED to submit to these things and it's not in YOUR or VW's power to change the fact that a goal of Islam is world domination. And, if submission isn't voluntary it will be made compulsory.

You basically follow the ideas of radical Islam thinking it's the real Islam. It's not, if you really knew the Quran, and not just on the surface, you would know that. What radical Islam is doing is taking verses of the Quran out of its historic, spiritual and textual context, exaggerating the meaning and generalising it for all humans and times, for example:

In the Quran there is a verse in which God says that the religion of truth will outshine/achieve victory... over all other religions, even if the disbelievers didn't/don't like it.

That's obviously the verse that radical Islam and your idea of Islam seems to rotate around:

1. It's a prophecy announced by God and that God brought to fruit.
2. Religion of truth is not meant as meaning the religion of Islam, eventhough it can include it if it's the right Islam, it means the never changing message of God, the belief in the one God, the worship of the one God, the commiting of good in the name of the one God...
3. It was meant in the historic context, that prophet Muhammad and his followers would win in the war polytheistic Mecca started. The disbelievers were off course the polytheists of Mecca and those from among the jews and christians that rejected the prophet and allied themselves with the polytheists of Mecca.

Radical islam is not only calling jews and christians alike disbelievers, but also generalising that verse for all times and turning it into an order to actively fulfill that prophecy through violence...

Only radical muslims follow the goal of world-domination, while the Quran clearly says anyone who strives for worldly power and riches loses in the afterlife, and even more important that there should be no compulsion in religion.

Taliesin

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Super Glitcher

If you subscribe to even this one thing you are then
inherently subject by the words of the prophet,
a l l o f t h e m. There's no logical way around that.
Muhammad states he is gods only prophet and that
the Qu'ran is gods only book.
That seems pretty rigid to me....

No, the shahada just insures that you believe in God and His message in the Quran as voiced by prophet Muhammad.

All other sayings of the prophet Muhammad can serve as a guidance, if used carefully since only the Quran is reliably preserved over the ages, but the Quran is the ultimative authority.

The Quran clearly confirms all other prophets and their messages from Adam till Jesus, and confirms the messages of Moses' Torah, David's Psalms and Jesus' gospel.

Taliesin

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by mojo2

But, here is the matter as I see it. Many in the Muslim world believe and admire and LOVE Osama because he is taking the religion back to it's basics.

No, part of muslims admire and love Osama Bin Ladin not because of his religious ideas, which many see as flawed in most regards, but because he symbolises arabic heroism against a much stronger opponent, ie. the US. Many muslims feel sad because of the loss of civilians in the 9/11-attacks, but nonetheless feel a sort of pride because an arab achieved to confront and challenge the biggest military/economic/political power of the world, the US.

Taliesin

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

If I would look at the last century and the five years of this one, I would easily find western, if you want christian people and countries bathing in violence against each other and others way in the majority: Germany against world1, England, France, Russia and arabs against ottoman-empire, genocide of armenians,Germany against world2, genocide of jews, Japan against neighbours, US against Japan, nuking of japanese towns, North- against South-Corea, US against North-Corea, China against US, Russia against itself and neighbouring countries, US against Vietnam, US against Cambodia, Cambodia against itself, Russia against Afghanistan, US and islamic mujahedeens against Russia, western world and Iraq against Iran, Iraq against itself, western world and Iran against Iraq, Iraq against Kuwait, UN against Iraq, Russia against Chechnya, Serbia against Bosnia, islamistic mujahedeens against US, US against Afghanistan, US against Iraq, islamistic mujahedeens against Spain, islamistic mujahedeens against Morocco, islamistic mujahedeens against Saudi-Arabia, islamistic mujahedeens against Britain, islamistic mujahedeens against Iraq.

Just because you are able to tag these occurings of violence with names like ww1/ww2, cold-war, WoT... doesn't distract from the fact that the vast majority of violence on this planet is being committed by non-muslims.

The only difference is that violent islamists are relatively powerless and use therefore spectacular attacks and media-compatible suicide-bombings to multiply the effect on the civilian population of their supposed enemies.

Taliesin

Conspiracy theories ? Everyones out to get Muslims ? do u actually beleive that ? lol...

Ill stick to more realistic reasoning here, until proved otherwise thankyou.

And as for the wars in which Chrisendom has been involved in in the past 205 years...

How many of them were fighting in the name of religion ? by killing civilians ?.....1. The IRA which has been denounced by almost every christian community the world over.

Most of the recent wars Chrisendom has been involved in involved geographic conquest, politics or resources. We/They never used religion as reasoning...because they cant. It dosent allow it.

It might not make a difference to you, but soldiers killing soldiers is very different to militia killing civilians, at least to me. And beleive you me, if there was a group out there, killing in the name of Christianity or Catholicism, i among the vast majority of the Christian community wont tolerate it, let alone support them...as opposed to the support Alquadea and Hamas get in their respective countries.

Cheers

PS>> the IRA has all but disappeared as well...as opposed to terrorists in Kashmir, Israel, Chechnya, Algeria, Egypt, Iraq, Afghanistan, Cyprus, Indonesia, Thailand, E.Timor, Sudan and Kenya.

[segovius]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

And as for the wars in which Chrisendom has been involved in in the past 205 years...

How many of them were fighting in the name of religion ? by killing civilians ?

Wonderful sights were to be seen. Some of our men (and this was more merciful) cut off the heads of their enemies; others shoot them with arrows, so that they fell from the towers; others tortured them longer by casting them into flames. Piles of heads, hands and feet were to be seen in the streets of the city. It was necessary to pick one's way over the bodies of men and horses. But these were small matters compared to what happened at the Temple of Solomon, a place where religious services are normally chanted ... in the temple and the porch of Solomon, men rode in blood up to their knees and bridle reins. Indeed it was a just and splendid judgement of God that this place should be filled with the blood of unbelievers since it had suffered so long from their blasphemies.

Raymond of Aguiles who accompanied the First Crusade 1099. A total of about 40,000 Muslims were killed in that two-day massacre of Jerusalem. Jews were murdered along with the Muslims, many were huddled into the synagogues and burned alive.

The Second Crusade (1147-1148) was called by Pope Eugenius III and preached by St. Bernard, the abbot of Clairvaux:

To Bernard war against infidels was not only justified but holy: "Indeed whether a man dies in bed or in battle, no doubt the death of his saints will be precious in God's sight, but if in battle certainly his death will be more precious.... it is better to massacre then so that their sword is no longer suspended over the heads of the just. The Christian glorifies in the death of a pagan because thereby Christ himself is glorified."

Linky

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

the IRA has all but disappeared as well....

A security alert near a primary school in Ballymena, County Antrim, has ended.
Police said an Army explosives team defused three viable pipe bombs found at Casement Place in the Harryville area at about 1000 BST.

More than 140 pupils at Harryville Primary School were sent home on Monday morning because of the alert. Forty homes near Casement Street were also evacuated.

LInky

Loyalist paramilitaries must end their violence and allow democratic politics to move forward, Northern Ireland Secretary Peter Hain has urged.

Mr Hain was speaking on a visit to St Louis's Catholic Primary School in Ballymena, which was targeted by sectarian arsonists in August. (He) strongly condemned loyalist threats to desecrate Catholic graves at Carnmoney Cemetery in Newtownabbey on Sunday. He was speaking on a visit to St Louis's Primary School, more than a month after it was attacked by arsonists.

At the end of August, extra police were put on guard outside Catholic churches and schools in the town, as sectarian attacks increased.

St Louis's Primary School was attacked just one day after nearby St Mary's Primary in the Harryville area was petrol bombed.

Thirty police officers were involved in Operation Striker, which covered 50 Catholic-owned properties, churches, schools and GAA sports grounds. Vehicle checkpoints were set up in Ballymena, Ahoghill and Portglenone, while mobile patrols covered other locations.

Linky

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by segovius

Raymond of Aguiles who accompanied the First Crusade 1099. A total of about 40,000 Muslims were killed in that two-day massacre of Jerusalem. Jews were murdered along with the Muslims, many were huddled into the synagogues and burned alive.

The Second Crusade (1147-1148) was called by Pope Eugenius III and preached by St. Bernard, the abbot of Clairvaux:



Linky





LInky



Linky

1. the crusades were 500-1000 years ago. im not denying they happened. Would Christians tolerate that today ?

2. The IRA. Sure there are conflicting report. but guess who's trying to dismantle their networks and disarm them. Other Christians in the same community. the same cant be said of Al Quadea or Hamas.

The year is 2005 not 1099. The Crusades, as u pointed out could have involved the killing of Jews as well....now guess which community is Israels and the Jews greatest ally (even through the holocaust). Yet , one community STILL remains at odds with everyone else Christians, Jews, Hindus and Budhists....and this is NOW, today, in this day and age.

And once again, the mistakes we made 1000 years ago, dosent justify other communities making them today.

Cheers.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

Conspiracy theories ? Everyones out to get Muslims ? do u actually beleive that ? lol...Ill stick to more realistic reasoning here, until proved otherwise thankyou.

Huh? You are reading into it something I have not claimed. This occurrences of violence committed in the vast majority by christians (ie. europeans and russians), shintoists (ie. Japan) and atheists were most of the part directed against themselves not against muslims.

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

And as for the wars in which Chrisendom has been involved in in the past 205 years...

How many of them were fighting in the name of religion ? by killing civilians ?.....

It might not make a difference to you, but soldiers killing soldiers is very different to militia killing civilians, at least to me. And beleive you me, if there was a group out there, killing in the name of Christianity or Catholicism, i among the vast majority of the Christian community wont tolerate it, let alone support them...as opposed to the support Alquadea and Hamas get in their respective countries.


Cheers

PS>> the IRA has all but disappeared as well...as opposed to terrorists in Kashmir, Israel, Chechnya, Algeria, Egypt, Iraq, Afghanistan, Cyprus, Indonesia, Thailand, E.Timor, Sudan and Kenya.

[/QUOTE]

But that's the point really, it doesn't matter what justification you use for the violence, if christians committed these violent occurences, it's really uninteresting if they did it in the name of chrisendom or in the name of capitalism. Christians have used whatever justification was able to gather mass-public-support: In the times when faith in God was still strong among christianity, the justification was used from inside the holy bible, when faith in materialism/capitalism replaced faith in God among the masses, the justifications were off course searched and used accordingly.
The reason why islamic militants are using religion for their causes is because in the islamic world the people still have strong faith in God, eventhough they are unfortunately not educated enough and scholarly secure in the holy scripture.
By the way in the wars of christianity civilians were killed en masse, and I don't even talk about crusades or some wars hundreds of years back, no, the wars of just the last century have achieved a death-toll among civilians higher than in most ancient wars, and they were also often targeted directly and not just out of mistake.

But don't misunderstand me, I'm not espescially singling out christianity because I think that something is wrong with christians, but only because you and most others here are christians, if not by faith then at least by descent. It's not a feature of christianity to be violent but a feature of humanity. Where faith in God is the ultimate motivation of people to live and act, the justification for the violence are searched and used from inside the holy scriptures, where faith in materialism/capitalism... is the ultimate motivation of people to live and act, the justification for violence is searched and used accordingly.

Taliesin

[segovius]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

1. the crusades were 500-1000 years ago. im not denying they happened. Would Christians tolerate that today ?

2. The IRA. Sure there are conflicting report. but guess who's trying to dismantle their networks and disarm them. Other Christians in the same community. the same cant be said of Al Quadea or Hamas.

The year is 2005 not 1099. The Crusades, as u pointed out could have involved the killing of Jews as well....now guess which community is Israels and the Jews greatest ally (even through the holocaust). Yet , one community STILL remains at odds with everyone else Christians, Jews, Hindus and Budhists....and this is NOW, today, in this day and age.

And once again, the mistakes we made 1000 years ago, dosent justify other communities making them today.

Cheers.

The point is that the same benchmarks are not being used and therefore no meaningful discussion can be had as we are not comparing like with like. Until we have an equal playing field that unconditionally states that actionX = labelX = consequenceX and have it applied unilaterally across the globe (to governments also) then no progress will be made in debate or in any putative 'war' on terrorism or any other ideology.

Look at some selected terms from those articles I linked to - I'll bold the bits that need attention:

Loyalist paramilitaries must end their violence....

...Primary School in Ballymena, which was targeted by sectarian arsonists...

Violence does not pay and progress will only be made when paramilitaries leave the stage.....

They were speaking on a visit to St Louis's Primary School, more than a month after it was attacked by arsonists .

extra police were put on guard outside Catholic churches and schools in the town, as sectarian attacks increased.

Can you honestly say that if a Muslim (of any agenda or none) had planted a firebomb at at a primary school or set fire to one then he would be described as a sectarian arsonist ?

Actually the insurgents in Iraq are in fact sectarians in the proper use of the term but they are never described as such.

Why are Hamas (which I'm sure you are aware was partly an Israeli creation) not described as paramilitaries ?

Why is it always terrorism when Muslims are involved and violence when someone else does the same thing ?

So there is a double standard - a conscious one that is perpetuated through the media according to a specific agenda. This is not conspiracy theory, it is a fact. You can find a hundred examples of it every day if you are prepared to look and able to see. Or if you are a Muslim on the receiving end of it.

Your comment "Yet , one community STILL remains at odds with everyone else Christians, Jews, Hindus and Budhists" is a result of this process. I know of no such community, Muslim or otherwise.

I know of certain individuals who are racially prejudiced, some who are anti-Semitic and some who are Islamophobic and these exists in such communities as the Muslim, the Jewish and the British and American in all parts of the world.

I know of no instance of where such sub-groups actually constitute the community itself although I have heard such claims many times. Strangely, always from members of the aforementioned sub-groups as it happens.....

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

You basically follow the ideas of radical Islam thinking it's the real Islam. It's not, if you really knew the Quran, and not just on the surface, you would know that. What radical Islam is doing is taking verses of the Quran out of its historic, spiritual and textual context, exaggerating the meaning and generalising it for all humans and times, for example:

In the Quran there is a verse in which God says that the religion of truth will outshine/achieve victory... over all other religions, even if the disbelievers didn't/don't like it.

That's obviously the verse that radical Islam and your idea of Islam seems to rotate around:

1. It's a prophecy announced by God and that God brought to fruit.
2. Religion of truth is not meant as meaning the religion of Islam, eventhough it can include it if it's the right Islam, it means the never changing message of God, the belief in the one God, the worship of the one God, the commiting of good in the name of the one God...
3. It was meant in the historic context, that prophet Muhammad and his followers would win in the war polytheistic Mecca started. The disbelievers were off course the polytheists of Mecca and those from among the jews and christians that rejected the prophet and allied themselves with the polytheists of Mecca.

Radical islam is not only calling jews and christians alike disbelievers, but also generalising that verse for all times and turning it into an order to actively fulfill that prophecy through violence...

Only radical muslims follow the goal of world-domination, while the Quran clearly says anyone who strives for worldly power and riches loses in the afterlife, and even more important that there should be no compulsion in religion.

Taliesin

Ahh, but if bin Laden wins then it WILL be the ideas of radical Islam thinking that will be enforced. Even one as learned and eloquent as you may be in the correct interpretation would be forced to adopt bin Laden's radical view. Is this not true?

[mojo2]

the words of CAIR's former board chairman, Omar Ahmad: "Islam isn't in American to be equal to any other faiths, but to be dominant."



"The hardest thing for Westerners to understand is...militant Islam's...ultimate goal...to apply the Islamic law (the Shari‘a) globally. In U.S. terms, it intends to replace the Constitution with the Qur'an. This aspiration is...far-fetched to many non-Muslims, it elicits more guffaws than apprehension...that used to be the same reaction in Europe...now it's...widely accepted that..."Europe will be Islamic by the end of the century."



More recently, the Middle East Media Research Institute tells us, Ahmad Dewidar, the prominent imam of the Islamic Center in New York and a lecturer at Manhattan University, referred in an interview to mosque-talk of how the White House -- "through the domination of Islam and its ideas" -- would become the "Muslim House.



"I was shocked," he says. "These people had really hid the fact that they were Brotherhood."

He says he found out that the U.S. Brotherhood had a plan for achieving Islamic rule in America: It would convert Americans to Islam and elect like-minded Muslims to political office.

"They're very smart. Everyone else is gullible," Saied says. "If the Brotherhood puts up somebody for an election, Muslims would vote for him not knowing he was with the Brotherhood."

Saied says he left the group after several years because he disliked its anti-American sentiments and its support for violence in the Middle East.

"With the extreme element," he says, "you never know when that ticking time bomb will go off."

[von Wrangell]

To add to segovius point above. Take a look at headlines when it comes to the biggest attempt at genocide since WWII in Europe. How often does it say "Christians massacred the innocent Muslim population" or "Mass grave found adding to the list of massacres committed by Christians"? Not once. It only refers to it as "Formal funerals to Bosnia mass-grave victims", "New Srebrenica mass grave found" and "Experts uncover graves in Bosnia".

These were innocent people slaughtered by Christians for not being Christians. Where's the mention of that?

"the road to which you want to take Bosnia and Herzegovina is the same highway of hell which Slovenia and Croatia took. Don't think you won't take Bosnia and Herzegovina to hell and the Muslims into annihilation... Muslims can't defend themselves if there is war here"... (Karadžić speaking at the Bosnian parliament, March 4, 1992)

:cue Hawkeye_a blaming the victims:

[Y3a]

These Crusades..... So how many Catholics were killed by the Muslims? how many were captured and became slaves? The children of those slaves went to beg for the release of their fathers. what happened to them??

WHY did the Christians end up killing the Muslims in Bosnia and Herzegovina? Had enough beheadings? The violence done by Muslims can't be defended. Why is it they just can't behave in a civilized manner? Perhaps they are NOT as civilized as reported?? forget my lyin' eyes...(how do you say that in French??)

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

:cue Hawkeye_a blaming the victims:

Ummm.... in case you forgot that general area, the Balkans has been the staging point for the muslim invasion of Europe for centuries. I would hardly consider the war and genocide solely the fault of the Europeans in that area. It did happen..... and you know what ? guess who made them pay ?....the oh so evil "west" and the "infidels". As a matter of fact.... guess who took them to task for war crimes. Now if only those pesky muslims in Afghanistan or S.Arabia would have done the same with demons like Osama Bin Laden....oh.....but what that ? he's fighting for Muslims ? maybe thats why there hasnt been a single mass demonstration against him in the muslim world.

In fact lets....expand on that....apart from all the "politicians" in the mid-east yapping and denouncing terrorism, i wonder what public opinion is.....Hammas still exists, Al Quadea still exists, The idiots in Indonesia still exists, and what have the 1 billion muslims done about all the genocides conducted by their brotherin ? *crickets chirping*

Empires have come andgone...the issue of race has waved it's ugly head time and time again throughout the ages. And yet.... there are people who made the right choices and did the right things..... Martin Luter king Jr.(Christian) and Ghandi(Hindu), all brought about dramatic social change not more than 55 years ago..... which is more than can be said of the hateful, spiteful, vengeful ways of people like OBL(muslim).

So yeah, Melosovich was a problem....guess who organized concerts to bring aid to the victims in that region ? Guess which troops were at the front lines fighting against that sort of behaviour against ANYONE IRRESPECTIVE OF RELIGION/RACE. Europe didnt want another Hitler......neither did the U.S. or Chrisendom.

So where are the muslims marching against Al Quadea and Hammas and OBL ? Where are the concerts in the middle east that will send aid to the civilian victims in Israel ? the U.S. ? Bali ? Delhi ? etc..... nowhere.

Speaking of French......10 days of rioting. what have they acheived ? im sure there was some reason. ive heard first hand accounts of racism against muslims by the police force in France. But why didnt the Indians do the same in India against the british ? Why did Rosa Parks and MLK fight even greater odds peacefully ?

So yeah.....poor victimized muslims.... get real. i say those civilians in the NYC, London, Bali, India, Madrid, Jerusalem, Armenia (which by the way was genocide that almost wiped out an entire community that Turkey(muslim) will not even admit to), etc,etc,etc.... have it just as bad. The difference ? Muslims communities do nothing about the killers on their side of the fence, and sometimes even go so far as to praise them.

Cheers

[Y3a]

This will be an interesting war to end all wars. The west with vastly superior firepower and technology vs the billions of emotional violent Muslims with swords and machine guns. The large areas like Indonesia will be nuked like the deserts of Iran and Syria. Our high tech sonic and EMF weapons will be put to the test, and the genetic warfare that so many have said wouldn't happen WILL!
Will it end in fire?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

How many of them were fighting in the name of religion ? by killing civilians ?.....1. The IRA which has been denounced by almost every christian community the world over.

*cough*

The IRA thing is nothing at all to do with religion - it's to do with whether the folks of Northern Ireland want to be controlled from Westminster or Dublin. The whole thing is no more religious than ETA's little campaign down in Spain/France is.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

Speaking of French......10 days of rioting. what have they acheived ? im sure there was some reason. ive heard first hand accounts of racism against muslims by the police force in France. But why didnt the Indians do the same in India against the british ? Why did Rosa Parks and MLK fight even greater odds peacefully ?

Huh? Maybe because the British used senseless brutal and murderous violence against them?

During the middle of the second millennium, several European countries, including the Portuguese, Dutch, French, and British, who were initially interested in trade with India, took advantage of fractured kingdoms fighting each other to establish colonies in the country. The English managed to thwart the other colonisers and came to rule much of the country by 1840. After a failed insurrection in 1857 against the British East India Company, popularly known in India as the First War of Indian Independence, most of India came under the direct administrative control of the crown of the British Empire.

Wasn't there also a massacre at a peaceful manifestation where 400 Hindu were killed, women and children included in the 1920s?

Here is another example:

In 1858, a rumor spread among Hindu soldiers that the British were greasing their bullets with the fat of cows and pigs, the former sacred animals to Hindus and the latter unclean animals to Muslims. A year-long rebellion against the British ensued. Although the Indian Mutiny was unsuccessful, it prompted the British government to seize total control of all British interests in India in 1858. Claiming to be only interested in trade, the Raj steadily expanded its influence until the princes ruled in name only.

So yeah.....poor victimized muslims.... get real. i say those civilians in the NYC, London, Bali, India, Madrid, Jerusalem, Armenia (which by the way was genocide that almost wiped out an entire community that Turkey(muslim) will not even admit to), etc,etc,etc.... have it just as bad. The difference ? Muslims communities do nothing about the killers on their side of the fence, and sometimes even go so far as to praise them.

Cheers

Certainly these people were victimized unfairly, but so are many Muslims, whether you like it or not.

See, discrimination does not discriminate; it is a question of context. It's all relative.

For instance, you are victim of your ignorance and your prejudice.

[Spliffdaddy]

I recall the Americans were victimized by the British not so long ago...

Does that give us an excuse for misbehaving today?

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by Pendergast

Huh? Maybe because the British used senseless brutal and murderous violence against them?

I was trying to point out the fact that despite the brutality of the British in India, Ghandi and the freedom movement was mostly peaceful, as opposed to organized terror against the Brits in India or abroad. That is in stark contrast to what all the lille islamic-terrorist groups as doing today. peaceful vs hateful ways to reaching their goals. Ghandi is way up on my list of idols just cause he acomplished so much peacfully.

Doofy:
I'm not all to familar with the N.Ireland issue, ill admit. But from my perspective and what ive read about the whole issue (Michael Collins, Easter rising(1912), etc), there is definately a religious factor at play. I'll admit, many of my high school teachers were Irish Catholic(County Donegal actually), and most of what i know i heard from them. And in all fairness, they got along just fine with ppl from N.Ireland and the U.K....despite religious differences. I'm not sure how big an issue religion is in the conflict, but i think it does play a part given the mostly Catholic Republic vs the mostly Anglican/Protestan North.

But anyway, my point being that, Chrisendom seems to take care of the idiots on our side of the fence.....Hitler, Milocivich, KKK, IRA, etc,etc... have been met with massive public disapproval and have been dealt with due to their racist policies. Looking at the Muslim world it's quite apparent that the public dosent seem to be aganst the terrorists/extremists/murderers on their side of the fence. Sure politicians will talk and make a big show of what little they do. But i think the general public reflects whats in the hearts and minds of a society, and until i see millions of muslims marching against alquadea, OBL, Hammas, etc...i wont be convinced that theyre against such evil or that anything concrete is being done to combat such filth.

Cheers

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally Posted by Pendergast

Certainly these people were victimized unfairly, but so are many Muslims, whether you like it or not.

See, discrimination does not discriminate; it is a question of context. It's all relative.

For instance, you are victim of your ignorance and your prejudice.

Discrimination, at least due to religion is not a question of context. it's either happening or not....but thats my opinion.

And yeah, im not a victim of ignorance and preudice. (you sound like MJ there lol).

I'm against Americans targetting arab-americans after 9/11. im against Bush invading Iraq. I am against Milocivich. Notice.....it dosent matter what part religion plays in the conflict. Also notice, the factions i am against in the fore mentioned are predominently non-muslims. If i were ignorant and prejudice, i would unconditionally support one and not the other, and as you might not have noticed, Im quite vocal about the fore mentioned on these boards as well.

So yeah ur entitled to your opinion. But thats wont curb me from voicing mine (mostly from experience and observation) against peoples who are obsessed with discriminating due to religious differences.

Cheers

EDIT>> Ugh. why do i keep coming back to the PL ? Quit provoking me to reply. Ive said more than enough on this subject. I take your leave...hopefully permanently(in the PL at least).

[Y3a]

I guess because the Muslim world has only one school 'textbook' and its over a THOUSAND years old that they have trouble dealing with the modern world. This is why they are behind socially, and technologically. They have nothing to offer in the way of skills for the most part. Thats why they don't get jobs, and because they 'did so well in islamic studies' they think this will get them some kind of respect? It's not the rest of the worlds fault that they chose a short sighted culture. The problem is further aggrevated by their inability to discuss rationally these issues, but instead claim some sort of evilness on the part of others.