[dcolton]

The CIA organized 9/11...
Man never wealked on the moon...
Area 51...
Who killed Kennedy...

What is your favorite conspiracy theory...that you believe?

Mine. I think there is an organized effort, among a small group of mostly liberal people, to control the media and tilt American opinion in the interests of these select people and their agenda. As the FCC de-regulates media more and more and huge corporations buy more and more tv stations and radio stations...the marketplace of ideals is limited to what only a few people find news worthy.

[ghost_flash]

Originally posted by dcolton:
The CIA organized 9/11...
Man never wealked on the moon...
Area 51...
Who killed Kennedy...

What is your favorite conspiracy theory...that you believe?

Mine. I think there is an organized effort, among a small group of mostly liberal people, to control the media and tilt American opinion in the interests of these select people and their agenda. As the FCC de-regulates media more and more and huge corporations buy more and more tv stations and radio stations...the marketplace of ideals is limited to what only a few people find news worthy.

Bush stole the election.

[Ayelbourne]

Originally posted by dcolton:
The CIA organized 9/11...
Man never wealked on the moon...
Area 51...
Who killed Kennedy...

What is your favorite conspiracy theory...that you believe?

- that Saddam Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction poised to be launched within 45 minutes.

No, really! It was quite troubling... I was ever so nervous.

[Logic]

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
Bush stole the election.

Bush won the election.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by dcolton:
Man never wealked on the moon...

Are there whelks on the moon? AFAIK, the moon's seas aren't really seas. Therefore, whelking would be difficult.

[Ayelbourne]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Are there whelks on the moon? AFAIK, the moon's seas aren't really seas. Therefore, whelking would be difficult.

If astronauts never walked on the moon, then why are they still picking bits of cheese out of their spaceboot lugs?

[Millennium]

I believe that what most people call UFOs are actually experimental military aircraft, still in the testing stages.

I think that the "close encounter" and abduction reports, on the other hand, are probably untrue; either deliberate fabrications or products of hallucination or delusion (depending on the account).

[MindFad]

Originally posted by Logic:
Bush won the election.

But America did not vote for Bush. [/derail]

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Millennium:
I believe that what most people call UFOs are actually experimental military aircraft, still in the testing stages.

I think that the "close encounter" and abduction reports, on the other hand, are probably untrue; either deliberate fabrications or products of hallucination or delusion (depending on the account).

Ever read anything by John Keel on the matter?

He claims that there is something out there. That poltergeists, ufos, hauntings, etc all have similar properties. That they all are coming from the same mischievous source. The same actions,smells, and feelings occur in all these instances.

1. Electrical disturbances.
2. Foul smell. Usually sulfric.
3. Unusually deep fear.
4. Cold spots.

He believes they are pranksters from another dimension.

I have my theories as well.

[dcolton]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Ever read anything by John Keel on the matter?

He claims that there is something out there. That poltergeists, ufos, hauntings, etc all have similar properties. That they all are coming from the same mischievous source. The same actions,smells, and feelings occur in all these instances.

1. Electrical disturbances.
2. Foul smell. Usually sulfric.
3. Unusually deep fear.
4. Cold spots.

He believes they are pranksters from another dimension.

I have my theories as well.

What are your theories Zimph?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by dcolton:
What are your theories Zimph?

Basically the same as his. He claims to not know their purpose.

I believe it's to deceive.

[voodoo]

Seek help Zimphire.

My fav is Who Killed Kennedy�.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Seek help Zimphire.

Do I need to say the "S" word?

I don't think so.

[dcolton]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Basically the same as his. He claims to not know their purpose.

I believe it's to deceive.

I think I understand. If so, we have the same belief.

[f1000]

That MacNN promotes flamebait topics to get more hits.

Cha-ching!

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Do I need to say the "S" word?

I don't think so.

Silly

[Sven G]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
1. Electrical disturbances.
2. Foul smell. Usually sulfric.

Well, if one is to trust the typical ufological (or ufo-illogical?) scenarios, it's almost sure that the UFOs (real or virtual) must have some sort of electro-magnetic propulsion system: that would also account for the instantaneous change of direction while maneuvering, and so on.

Now, how could a vehicle be autonomously propelled by electromagnetical forces without "pulling itself up by its own boots"? The force propelling it should be external to the vehicle itself, thus, obviously. Could this be possible? Maybe by some form of toroidal (superconductive?) electromagnets which would ionize the surrounding air (the so-called corona effect, at 30 kV or more, IIRC), and generate a strong current through the air itself, thus providing an external, reactive force on the vehicle (with a plasma-like effect)? Or something else, more or less similar? Who knows...

That's a potentially very interesting field of discussion, IMHO: a clean form of electromagnetic propulsion could save the world from the irrationalities of the current oil-driven economy, for example - as long as it is pursued with peaceful and humanly empowering intentions (see good use of science and technology, etc.).

P.S.: I had thought about all this some years ago, when I was an engineering student: not really sure if I recall the exact terms correctly (wasn't it, essentially, something like F = IL x B, for the magnetic force on a coil...?) - anyway, the overall meaning should be evident...

[f1000]

Originally posted by Sven G:
Well, if one is to trust the typical ufological (or ufo-illogical?) scenarios, it's almost sure that the UFOs (real or virtual) must have some sort of electro-magnetic propulsion system: that would also account for the instantaneous change of direction while maneuvering, and so on.

Now, how could a vehicle be autonomously propelled by electromagnetical forces without "pulling itself up by it own boots"? The force propelling it should be external to the vehicle itself, thus, obviously. Could this be possible? Maybe by some form of toroidal (superconductive?) electromagnets which would ionize the surrounding air (the so-called corona effect, at 30 kV or more, IIRC), and generate a strong current through the air itself, thus providing an external, reactive force on the vehicle (with a plasma-like effect)? Or something else, more or less similar? Who knows...

That's a potentially very interesting field of discussion, IMHO: a clean form of electromagnetic propulsion could save the world from the irrationalities of the current oil-driven economy, for example - as long as it is pursued with peaceful and humanly empowering intentions (see good use of science and technology, etc.).

Magnetohydrodynamic (MHD) engines generate far too little thrust to be of any use in terrestrial aerospace vehicles. One could never be used to hover against the Earth's gravity.

Also, it takes energy to power electromagnets. This energy has to come from somewhere; most likely, it'll have to come from fossil fuels.

[ghost_flash]

Originally posted by f1000:
Magnetohydrodynamic (MHD) engines generate far too little thrust to be of any use in terrestrial aerospace vehicles. One could never be used to hover against the Earth's gravity.

Also, it takes energy to power electromagnets. This energy has to come from somewhere; most likely, it'll have to come from fossil fuels.

The H in MHD would preclude it for space use. Hydro-dynamic. It has to be in the water.
The use of magnetism to hover is not new. There is a fellow who supposedly discovered how the pyramids were built and would build these huge structures by himself and the internal magnetic fields?, I'm not sure, but it was an interesting program into his life and mystery.

I think the secret of the pyramids are also the secret to UFOs.

My .02
Edit:

Found it: http://www.rense.com/general39/coral.htm

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
I think the secret of the pyramids are also the secret to UFOs.

I think angels of light helped out indeed.

[f1000]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Ever read anything by John Keel on the matter?

He claims that there is something out there. That poltergeists, ufos, hauntings, etc all have similar properties. That they all are coming from the same mischievous source. The same actions,smells, and feelings occur in all these instances.

1. Electrical disturbances.
2. Foul smell. Usually sulfric.
3. Unusually deep fear.
4. Cold spots.

He believes they are pranksters from another dimension.

I have my theories as well.

Well, if an electrical disturbance (like a lightning bolt) were to inspire unusually deep fear in an individual, it could result in a loss of bladder/bowel control. This would explain both the cold spots and foul smells. You might say that 1 -> 3 -> 4 -> 2.

But seriously, according to string theorists, it might be possible to communicate with other dimensions through gravitons.

[John F. Smith]

I'm not exactly sure how to fit this in here, and it's not aimed at anybody in particular, but:

[f1000]

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
The H in MHD would preclude it for space use. Hydro-dynamic. It has to be in the water.
The use of magnetism to hover is not new. There is a fellow who supposedly discovered how the pyramids were built and would build these huge structures by himself and the internal magnetic fields?, I'm not sure, but it was an interesting program into his life and mystery.

I think the secret of the pyramids are also the secret to UFOs.

My .02
Edit:

Found it: http://www.rense.com/general39/coral.htm

The H in MHD includes such "fluids" as plasmas, and plasma rocket engines have been worked on for years (which is why I know they won't work for hovering UFO's). If you use magnets to guide/propel ionized gas molecules, then it's MHD (do a Google on it).

As for your "the use of magnetism to hover is not new" statement, levitating a magnet a few inches above another one is a far cry from levitating a large, heavy object miles above the Earth's surface. It is, for all practical purposes, impossible to levitate an object as large as a Boeing 747 20,000 feet above the Earth using only magnets. Study some college physics before challenging me on this statement.

Edit: That link is pseudoscientific garbage. I give it two thumbs down.

[James Christ]

Some are true and have been revealed:

http://www.jonronson.com/index.html

http://www.jonronson.com/rulers.html

http://books.guardian.co.uk/extracts...449284,00.html

http://www.jonronson.com/them_bohemia.html


The best way to conspire is to do the unbelievable.

[coolmacdude]

Originally posted by Millennium:
I believe that what most people call UFOs are actually experimental military aircraft, still in the testing stages.

I think that the "close encounter" and abduction reports, on the other hand, are probably untrue; either deliberate fabrications or products of hallucination or delusion (depending on the account).

That was initially my position as well.

Then I began reading books and doing some research on the topic.

And I must say, the volume and credibility of eyewitness testimony and physical evidence pointing to a very different explanation is rather disturbing.

Most of it is not in the mainstream.

I found some even more disturbing possible reasons for this.

[Sven G]

Originally posted by f1000:
It is, for all practical purposes, impossible to levitate an object as large as a Boeing 747 20 000 feet above the Earth using only magnets.

Let's see... Oversimplifying, a very big aircraft-like vehicle would be subject to a gravitational attraction force, say, of the order of magnitude of 1-10 MN (meganewtons) - or maybe even more for spaceship-like objects, - so we would have, approximately, for the required hypothetical electromagnetic force,

F = ILB = 10^6...10^7...

One could, theoretically, act on the current intensity (I), on the electromagnetic coil length (L), and on the magnetic field intensity (B) to satisfy this equation. Of course, as you said, this indeed seems impossible to do in the current context. Maybe the UFOs use some method which involves factors unknown to us at this moment (some "virtual" or "equivalent" currents, coil lenths, magnetic fields, etc.?): it's all pure speculation, obviously - and more of the semi-serious kind. Maybe it's not at all electromagnetism, but some form of anti-gravity? Or it could be our well-known classical physics, but implemented in some new way: who knows?

Anyway, the electromagnetic (MHD, etc.) explanation is quite fascinating, at least theoretically!

Eventually, there must be some way to avoid fossil fuels: until then, here are some more or less interesting (YMMV) links on UFO-like propulsion systems:

NASA Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Project

UFO Propulsion Research from Nairobi Kenya

UFOSeek.com UFO Propulsion Links

etc. etc.

[f1000]

Originally posted by Sven G:
One could, theoretically, act on the current intensity (I), on the electromagnetic coil length (L), and on the magnetic field intensity (B) to satisfy this equation. Of course, as you said, this indeed seems impossible to do in the current context. Maybe the UFOs use some method which involves factors unknown to us at this moment (some "virtual" or "equivalent" currents, coil lenths, magnetic fields, etc.?): it's all pure speculation, obviously - and more of the semi-serious kind. Maybe it's not at all electromagnetism, but some form of anti-gravity? Or it could be our well-known classical physics, but implemented in some new way: who knows?

Eventually, there must be some way to avoid fossil fuels: until then, here are some more or less interesting (YMMV) links on UFO-like propulsion systems:

Yes, you are oversimplifying.

Powerful electromagnets are large and heavy. The strongest commercial magnets that most laypeople are familiar with are the ones found in MRI's (1.5T). No human on Earth could detach a scissor or any other large ferrous object that was stuck to an energized MRI; instead, the MRI must first be demagnetized (a slow and expensive process for superconducting magnets). People inside MRI's have even been killed by improperly restrained metal objects that were drawn like missiles into the bore. Yet, despite such apparent power, MRI magnets exert very little force at moderate distances (only a few tens of feet away). This is simply the nature of magnetic fields: their intensity drops off quickly with distance.

The field generated by a magnet that could lift a Boeing 747 20,000 feet into the air would wreak havoc on Earth, and would also tear the magnet apart. There's a reason why it's hard to build superconducting magnets past the 10 T range - the incredible Lorentz forces generated tend to cause the magnets to explode!

[Sven G]

Originally posted by f1000:
The field generated by a magnet that could lift a Boeing 747 20,000 feet into the air would wreak havoc on Earth, and would also tear the magnet apart. There's a reason why it's hard to build superconducting magnets past the 10 T range - the incredible Lorentz forces generated tend to cause the magnets to explode!

Well - good to know that!

... So, if UFOs really exist, they must use some other method: only time will tell, probably...

[gadster]

D'oh.

[gadster]

Riddle me this. Why is much of Nikola Tesla's research STILL classified?? wtf?

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by gadster:
Riddle me this. Why is much of Nikola Tesla's research STILL classified?? wtf?

Well, he did spend years trying to build death rays . . .

[finboy]

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
Bush stole the election.

The Iraq war was about oil, or revenge.
Neocons are running the country.
Cheney went to war to get contracts for Halliburton.
Osama is already in custody.

[Sven G]

... Man, it's rather impressing how people seem to be interested in alternative forms of propulsion!

Anyway, in the meantime (waiting for the secret of electromagnetic-or-not levitation to be discovered, maybe), "we" always have the A380, which is probably the best airplane currently (almost) available:



BTW (see a post above), "poor" (relatively, of course: see the magnetic field unit) Nikola Tesla is probably rolling in his grave, even laughing at us "evolved" human beings of the 21st century, seeing that his efforts at making a completely new form of clean energy have been implemented so partially: of course, if the overall political/economical system remains as it is, it seems to be rather unlikely that we could transcend the fossil fuels, etc. irrationality in a reasonable time (see big business interests, of the "I want it all and now" - the so-called profits, of course! - kind, and so on)...

[funkboy]

Originally posted by coolmacdude:
...I must say, the volume and credibility of eyewitness testimony and physical evidence pointing to a very different explanation is rather disturbing.

Most of it is not in the mainstream.

I found some even more disturbing possible reasons for this.

You can't seriously expect to leave us hanging with that, can you?

What were the more disturbing possible reasons?

[James Christ]

Originally posted by finboy:
The Iraq war was about oil, or revenge.
Neocons are running the country.
Cheney went to war to get contracts for Halliburton.
Osama is already in custody.

Wrong thread.

[coolmacdude]

Originally posted by funkboy:
You can't seriously expect to leave us hanging with that, can you?

What were the more disturbing possible reasons?

Oh boy. ::opens proverbial can of worms::

That will take me a while.

I'm very busy right now but I'll try to have something up by tomorrow.

[Ratspittle]

Originally posted by Sven G:
Well, if one is to trust the typical ufological (or ufo-illogical?) scenarios, it's almost sure that the UFOs (real or virtual) must have some sort of electro-magnetic propulsion system: that would also account for the instantaneous change of direction while maneuvering, and so on.

Now, how could a vehicle be autonomously propelled by electromagnetical forces without "pulling itself up by it own boots"? The force propelling it should be external to the vehicle itself, thus, obviously. Could this be possible? Maybe by some form of toroidal (superconductive?) electromagnets which would ionize the surrounding air (the so-called corona effect, at 30 kV or more, IIRC), and generate a strong current through the air itself, thus providing an external, reactive force on the vehicle (with a plasma-like effect)? Or something else, more or less similar? Who knows...

That's a potentially very interesting field of discussion, IMHO: a clean form of electromagnetic propulsion could save the world from the irrationalities of the current oil-driven economy, for example - as long as it is pursued with peaceful and humanly empowering intentions (see good use of science and technology, etc.).

P.S.: I had thought about all this some years ago, when I was an engineering student: not really sure if I recall the exact terms correctly (wasn't it, essentially, something like F = IL x B, for the magnetic force on a coil...?) - anyway, the overall meaning should be evident...

I think you may be alluding to the biefield-brown effect demonstrated in the 50s and 60s, which had more to do with capacitive(sp?) methods of creating a field, rather than magnetic (electo or otherwise). Two large plates seperated by the perfect dialectric, pump in enough dc voltage, and after a certain point, the plates will move in the direction of the positive plate. This is a fact, look it up.
If you arrange a series of these large capacitors in a saucer type shape and vary the voltages to them , in theory you could steer, and make ubrupt changes in direction. I think the field produced ionizes the air on the positive side thus creating a vacuum which pulls the capacitor in that direction (simillar to lift, but without the need for speed).
There are some cool videos out there on the web that show experimentors actually demonstrating the biefield brown effectI.
BTW, if you like conspiracy books read the book Disclosure, it'll blow you away.

[Sven G]

Originally posted by Ratspittle:
[...] BTW, if you like conspiracy books read the book Disclosure, it'll blow you away.

Thanks for the great info!

Yes, of course it could also be something electrostatic, or similar. (To be honest, I haven't opened a physics book since the university years, so what I said was based mostly on generic memories and common sense.)

BTW, I immediately found the web site associated with the book - very interesting:

http://www.disclosureproject.org

[Ratspittle]

I found this book on the 50% off table while waiting to get my car fixed last week...normally not something I would read...particularly with the cheesy cover (yeah I know DJABBIC), but it was cheap and seemed an interesting premise. It was astounding, and very little input from the author, mainly a collection of interviews. I wanted to go out and tell all my friends to read it, but it is a little hard to bring up that topic with a lot of people.

[Sven G]

Other seemingly interesting sites (haven't read them yet, however):

http://www.electricspacecraft.com

http://www.electrogravityphysics.com

http://www.infinite-energy.com

http://www.gravitation.org

etc. etc.

[coolmacdude]

Originally posted by Ratspittle:
I wanted to go out and tell all my friends to read it, but it is a little hard to bring up that topic with a lot of people.

And that's the problem. Many people don't understand that UFO investigation is a real science. Many respected people are in this field, and are treating it just as any other type of scientific study. There is plenty of physical evidence to study and people to interview. But it doesn't get treated that way. Everyone who claims to have had an encounter is passed off by the mainstream as either a lier/hoaxer or as a lunatic, when that's not the reality at all. I'll be posting a lengthy summary of my study into the phenomena and Roswell in particular sometime later this evening.

[coolmacdude]

Originally posted by funkboy:
You can't seriously expect to leave us hanging with that, can you?

What were the more disturbing possible reasons?

The big picture is really more than I can sum up here, but I'll try. This is just a basic overview.
This is also the longest post I've ever written, but I think the subject matter deserves it.
Also as an FYI, I had to break this up into five posts because of the length.

Also I know this thread was started as a humorous activity, but everything I say here, I am 100% serious about. If you want to call me a lunatic or a crazy, that's fine, doesn't bother me. But don't say I am just joking.

Let me preface by saying I've read dozens books and discussions on the UFO phenomenon and Roswell, by various individuals, eyewitnesses, respected scientists, and ex-military. Like other researchers I have attempted to not begin an inquiry into something with any preconceptions or bias about what I would find or the end result. However, I think the available evidence speaks for itself and points to a decidedly different story than what the government would have us believe.

Whatever it was that crashed at Roswell (and it was not a weather balloon) was important enough that the government moved to quash all public knowledge of it immediately after the event. The story in the paper and the rumors and gossip generated from it had already began to spread beyond Roswell even before the Air Force (at that time known as the Army Air Force) changed their story. Some had already begun to talk about what they saw. This is something the government could not tolerate. So they proceeded to stamp out all public information regarding the incident through blackmail and intimidation. What followed was one of the most outlandish suppressions of speech by the government in history. It rivaled tactics used by the KGB and the Gestapo. I am not in the least exaggerating on this. Everyone in the Roswell area who knew or had heard anything about the incident received visits from military officers. Many were threatened with imprisonment or even execution if they spoke up again regarding anything that they had seen. They were told that nothing had happened, they had seen nothing, and would not discuss it any further for the rest of their lives. The psychological torture continued as many were forced to repeat this over and over until the officers were convinced they believed it wholeheartedly.

As horrible as this information suppression was, it worked and accomplished what the military wanted. The Air Force story stuck. It was a weather balloon and no one was going to question that because they had all been silenced. Between 1950-70 Roswell faded from public view and basically everyone forgot about it.

It didn't generate any more interest until some of the high ranking military officers involved in the coverup began to come clean. As many of these men were late in age, it was surmised that they probably wanted to have a clear conscience before they died.

I will now give a brief summary of some of the most important Roswell witnesses and what testimonies they have given. There are many more, for anyone that wants to look into it further. Several key witnesses include Major Jessie Marcel, Major Edwin Easley, and Captain Oliver "Pappy" Henderson.

Marcel was the chief Intelligence Officer at the Roswell Army Airfield in 1947. According to his testimony, his office received a call from rancher Mac Brazel about a crashed aircraft in one of the rancher's fields. Col. Blanchard, commander of the base, dispatched a contingent that included Marcel to investigate the crash. What they found was beyond anything they could have expected. Marcel relates, "When we arrived at the crash site, it was amazing to see the vast amount of area it covered. It was nothing that hit the ground or exploded on the ground. It's something that must have exploded above ground, traveling perhaps at a high rate of speed, we don't know. But it scattered over an area of about three quarters of a mile long, I would say, and fairly wide, several hundred feet wide." This represents orders of magnitude more debris than would have been produced by a weather balloon. After returning to the base with the debris, Blanchard examined it and ordered it flown to Wright Field Ohio after stopping in Ft. Worth texas to show it to Gen. Roger Ramey. He then subsequently told William Haut, the public information officer, to issue a press release that they had recovered a "flying disc". Within an a very short time after seeing the wreckage, Generel Ramey publicly retracted that statement and substituted the weather balloon story. Also Marcel is the man in the famous Roswell photo kneeling beside wreckage (which is from a balloon). He says this happened at Ft. Worth and he was told to pose with this false wreckage (that was not part of the recovered Roswell debris) as part of the new cover story. This was to bolster the new claim that it was just a weather balloon. Regarding what was actually recovered, Marcel said the material at Brazel's ranch had highly unusual physical properties that were beyond any human technology at the time and was in his words, "not of this earth, definitely not balloon material of any kind." Additionally he added, "I didn't know what we were picking up. I still don't know what it was...it could not have been part of an aircraft, not part of any kind of weather balloon or experimental balloon...I've seen rockets... sent up at the White Sands Testing Grounds. It definitely was not part of an aircraft or missile or rocket."

Capt. Henderson claimed to be the pilot of the plane that flew the wreckage to Wright Field. He was sworn to secrecy and didn't talk about the event until Roswell started to gain greater coverage in the press. Even then he never discussed it publicly and only told his family. After he died his family testified about what he told them. Below is an affidavit from his wife.

--
(1) My name is Sappho Henderson

(2) My address is:_ XXXXXXXX

(3) I am retired.

(4) My husband was Oliver Wendell Henderson, who was called "Pappy," because he was older than the other pilots in his squadron during World War II and had prematurely gray hair._ We met during World War II, when he flew with the 446th Bomb Squadron; he flew B-24s and had_ 30 missions over Germany, for which he received two Distinguished Flying Crosses and the Air Medal with Four Oak Leaf Clusters.

(5) After the war, he returned home and was sent to Galveston Air Force Base, then transferred to Pueblo AFB, and then sent to Roswell (later Walker AFB), where he stayed for 13 years.

(6) While he was stationed at Roswell, he ran the "Green Hornet Airline," which involved flying C-54s and C-47s, carrying VIPs, scientists and materials from Roswell to the Pacific during the atom bomb tests._ He had to have a Top Secret clearance for this responsibility._ After separating from the service, he operated a construction business in Roswell._ He died on March 25, 1986.

(7) In 1980 or 1981, he picked up a newspaper at a grocery store where we were living in San Diego._ One article described the crash of a UFO outside Roswell, with the bodies of aliens discovered beside the craft._ He pointed out the article to me and said, "I want you to read this article, because it's a true story._ I'm the pilot who flew the wreckage of the UFO to Dayton, Ohio._ I guess now that they're putting it in the paper, I can tell you about this._ I wanted to tell you for years."_ Pappy never discussed his work because of his security clearance.

(8) He described the beings as small with large heads for their size._ He said the material that their suits were made of was different than anything he had ever seen._ He said they looked strange._ I believe he mentioned that the bodies had been packed in dry ice to preserve them._ He was not aware of the book [The Roswell Incident] that had been published about this event at the time he told me this.

(9) I have not been paid or given anything of value to make this statement, which is the truth to the best of my recollection.

Signed:_ Sappho Henderson
Date:_ July 9, 1991

Signature witnessed by:_ Steve Goode

Subscribed and sworn before me this 9th day of July, 1991
XXXXXXXXXXXXX, Notary Public
In and for the County of Los Angeles State of California
--

[coolmacdude]

Easley never revealed as much as Marcel or Henderson, nor as publicly. However, what he did say for most of his life provides more evidence for a coverup. Edwin Easley was the Provost Marshall of the Roswell Army Airfield in 1947. He was also in charge of the military team responsible for cleaning up the crash site. This included setting up a cordon to block access by civilian vehicles (Roswell firemen responded to the crash as well, believing it was an airplane), and removing any traces of evidence for what actually crashed there. Throughout his life, until just before he died, Easley kept his secrets. But his denial was the interesting part. On the many occasions when he was asked about the Roswell events, his response was not "that it was just a weather balloon". Instead he said that he could not talk about it because he "promised President Truman never to discuss it." Such a promise, to the POTUS no less, seems rather ridiculous if it was just a weather balloon. Clearly it was something much more important. Shortly before Easley died, he conducted three phone interviews with Roswell researcher Kevin Randle. In these he would still not reveal any details but did give Randle some evidence of what he believed truly happened. Randle told Easley that he was investigating the possibility that an extraterrestrial event occurred at Roswell and that he believed there was much more than the military was revealing. Easley told him that "that would not be the wrong angle to pursue."

Randle also spoke to several other members of the 509th that didn't want to be identified publicly, but confirmed much of Marcel's testimony. Many of the witnesses have said that even this long after the event, they are still fearful of the consequences in the threats they were given in 1947 and hence are reluctant to publicly associate themselves with an extraterrestrial explanation for Roswell. Several others, while not wanting to make a public statement were comfortable in at least passively acknowledging it. Patrick Saunders, who was the Roswell base adjutant in 1947, wrote on the flyleaf of a copy of Randle's book The Truth about the UFO Crash at Roswell, "This is the truth and I never told anybody anything."

In the process of attempting to dissociate Roswell form the AIr Force story, after the first group of people started to talk more began to come forward. To date there have been several dozen witnesses who have given persuasive testimonies that whatever was recovered was definitely not a weather balloon, nor any sort of military craft, and was probably extraterrestrial. Some of the better testimonies are available here and here. Many are from military officers involved in the events or family members of deceased ones who are telling what they spoke of before they died. Many more would undoubtedly come forward were they not still afraid for their lives.

I still think some the most compelling evidence for the alien connection to Roswell occurred at the time of the incident. On July 8, 1947, the Roswell Daily Record printed a story that the 509th Bomb group of the Roswell Army Air Force had recovered a flying saucer on a nearby ranch. (This was from Haut's press release.) After the story was changed and declared a weather balloon, General Ramey in Texas stated that the crash wreckage was misidentified. This notion is so outrageous that I can't believe it still holds any credence. All Air Force officers, then and now, receive extremely detailed training on anything that flies and any equipment that is used by anyone in the sky. The 509th was the most elite unit in the country and were the same ones who flew the A bomb missions in WWII. In addition, weather balloon crashes were fairly common in that part of the country, so I'm sure many of these men had seen them before. At the very least they certainly knew what they looked like. Even the most poorly trained of them could not have mistaken a weather balloon for a flying saucer, even on a bad day. There is also a lot of documentation available that the contents of the crash were transported to Fort Worth, Texas and then to Wright Field in Ohio. Again, such a procedure would have made no sense and would not have occurred had what crashed just been a weather balloon.

The Air Force's current story is just as absurd as it was at the time. In 1997 they released an update to their stance on Roswell stating that it wasn't just a weather balloon but a special type of weather balloon used for spying on the soviets. This was called a Mogul balloon. Again, this does not even remotely explain the security measures used after the Roswell cleanup, something which have never been duplicated to my knowledge, nor the incredible disparity in the amount of wreckage recovered compared to the mass of a weather balloon, nor the eyewitness testimony about the unusual properties of the wreckage. Clearly it was something of much more serious consequence than a weather balloon.

After all the serious ufologists laughed at this explanation and again demanded the truth, the Air Force felt more pressure. So they changed their story AGAIN! They said they had erred and a rechecking of their records showed that it was not a Mogul balloon but in fact a different type called a Fugo balloon! If the Air Force actually expects this to sway anyone else they are completely deluded. They have completely lost all respect from me and other serious UFO researchers and frankly at this point things are beginning to reek of a huge coverup. (Remember, they completely denied the existence of Area 51 for decades until we shoved the satellite photos up their ass.) And their environmental violations with hazardous waste relating to experiments conducted there continue to be sequestered by Presidential order.

Yet unfortunately many people will still take anything the government says at face value. This includes other supposedly serious UFO researchers. Kal Korff wrote a book in which he attempts to smear the credibility of all the Rowell witnesses and prove that the Air Force is really telling the truth now and it was just a Mogul balloon. However, the book was published before the Air Force changed their story again to the Fugo balloon. Oops, better luck next time Kal.

Many people have said that final proof for an extraterrestrial explanation to Roswell cannot be established on human testimony alone, and that we need physical evidence. I tend to agree with this. These people say that surely if an alien craft crashed and the military took possession of it, there would be documents somewhere substantiating this and that the government has to have records that could provide more info. Many have used the lack of availability of such documents as evidence that they do not exist. They say that surely a secret this big could not have been kept without leaks. However, after the Roswell event there was very little if any paper that mentioned anything like what the witnesses were describing. This was of course because it was all top secret, and guarded very closely. That was until 1984. That is when an anonymous source placed a pile of documents at the door of Jamie Shandera, a movie producer in Los Angeles. These documents describe a top secret government project known as Majestic-12. This was a steering group set up by President Truman after Roswell to determine how to deal with UFOs and the extraterrestrial phenomena occurring around military bases. (Radar would pick up many contacts traveling at an extremely fast speed that would linger around important bases.) The Majestic-12 documents (MJ-12) refer to policies set up in the 40s and 50s to investigate the origin of UFOs and what to do in the case of alien contact. They substantiate the fact that Roswell did involve an alien crash and that there was wreckage and bodies recovered from the crash site. A lengthy analysis then took place to attempt to determine the nature of the aliens, how their craft worked, and what if any threat they posed. Now of course the main question here is are these documents authentic and can they be trusted. Well, the physical evidence says yes. A detailed study of the documents has shown that the typewriter used was an Underwood, which first appeared around 1940. Chromatography tests on the ink and pencil markings show that they were made around 1950. Red ink security stamps are identical to those used in that era, and so on. But all that notwithstanding, what about the documents themselves? Could they have been faked? Research at the national archives and examinations of other since declassified Top Secret documents have shown remarkable similarities compared to the MJ-12 files. In addition, the documents reference other documents which are known to exist but remain classified. Of course none of this has stopped the chronic debunkers. They maintain the documents are forgeries and contain no credible evidence. However, nuclear physicist and respected UFO researcher Stan Friedman in his excellent book Top Secret/Majic details his 12 year research into the documents and provides more than enough evidence in my opinion for their authenticity. The documents remain controversial, but then again so does the entire Roswell event.

[coolmacdude]

Another interesting fact regarding the general public's knowledge about UFOs and Roswell is that despite a mountain of new evidence that has come out over the last 10 years pointing squarely to a non-terrestrial event occurring at Roswell and a large government coverup, this information has somehow been kept out of the mainstream media. See this article for some interesting theories on why and how that has happened. In addition a good book about the subject is Dolan's UFOs and the National Security State: Chronology of a Coverup. It's also important to note here that Roswell is only one of thousands of cases involving UFO contact. Some of the more recent ones are even more credible. Do a search regarding a solar eclipse that took place in Mexico City in 1991 for info on a UFO witnessed by thousands of people, as well as photographed and videotaped by dozens. Yet, incredibly, again this went virtually unmentioned in the US media.

The most provocative evidence to date regarding Roswell was disclosed in 1997. That was the year Colonel Philip J. Corso of the US Army published The Day After Roswell. Before I say too much about the contents, I want to discuss Col Corso himself so I'll just start by saying that in the book he describes his own encounters with the Roswell materials while working at the Pentagon with Army Intelligence and the ongoing efforts of the various intelligence branches of the government to maintain the coverup of what really happened.

Col Corso in my opinion has the highest credentials of anyone to speak on the Roswell incident so far. He was a decorated war veteran of WWII. He was the Army's lead man in rebuilding Italy after the war (he stayed in Rome for 3 years after the war ended working to stabilize the country). His leadership was greatly admired and his actions and the way he handled himself speak volumes. Just after the war, he was instrumental in successfully moving 10,000 jews still under oppression from Rome to Palestine. He served on President Eisenhower's National Security Council from 1954-57. He was the battalion commander of a NIKE nuclear missile complex in West Germany from 1957-61. And after that he was appointed the head of the Foreign Technology department at the Army Research and Development division of the Pentagon. More recently, his testimony before Congress played a principle role in revealing a coverup of the government's knowledge about POWs in the Korean War. Most of this he relates in the book and none of it is in dispute, even among debunkers. Research by many people have thoroughly established his military record. This makes him the highest ranking military officer to date to come forward with evidence of the coverup and the true nature of Roswell.

As if that weren't enough, Senator Strom Thurmond wrote a foreword for the book in which he expresses nothing but admiration and respect for the Colonel. It is also known that he was a lifelong friend of Corso. Neither that nor the contents of the foreword are in dispute. Now this is where things get interesting. When the book was released Senator Thurmond was the current chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee. This gave the impression that one of the most powerful men in the government and with oversight power over the military supported Corso's statements that the gov. had been hiding the truth about Roswell and the existence of extraterrestrials from the public for over 50 years. This was unacceptable to certain individuals within the government so they decided to have the Senator's statements quashed. (Flashback to 1947, read: the gov. ALWAYS gets what they want when it comes to UFO publicity). They pressured Simon and Schuster (publisher of the book) to remove the Senator's comments and demanded that all printed copies be recalled. S&S rightly called BS at this and refused. This did not stop the government and there was no way they weren't eventually going to get their way on this, but unfortunately for them the book finished printing and was distributed before they could take any further action.

The contents of the book are truly amazing. Although Corso says he was not at Roswell, he saw one of the alien bodies when a convoy carrying wreckage from Roswell passed through a base he was stationed at. (His description of it is basically the same as the grey which popular culture now associates with aliens.) Years later in 1961 when he was at Army R&D at the Pentagon, he was put under the command of General Arthur Trudeau. The General gave him a filing cabinet and told him there was some special material inside he wanted analyzed. The General also wanted a plan on how it could be used. Corso says in the book that this is why Roswell completely fell off the radar for years after the event. The government was ripe with Soviet spies and the material was so secret no one could be trusted with it. So it languished in storage. What Corso found in the filing cabinet were records detailing the recovery of the Roswell craft and alien bodies. There were photos and autopsy reports, as well as several interesting artifacts from the craft. Some of these included a piece of circuitry, a laser, and a head interface device. He says the Army got the contents through the events that occurred after the wreckage arrived at Wright Field. It was taken charge of by a General Nathan Twining who analyzed the components of the material and then distributed parts of it to the various military branches he felt would benefit most from their study. Corso describes how scientists analyzed the material he had and made interesting hypotheses about their function and design. He even says ideas learned from the study of the Roswell material was given to American companies and it helped in the development of several modern technologies like the laser, fiber optics, and super-strength fibers. Basically, there was some reverse engineering of the Roswell craft and it led to better understandings of new technology.

In a common theme you may have started to notice, there was initially no significant media coverage of Corso's book. I could not understand this in the least. The media loves controversy. At the slightest hint of it, they are all over a story. Yet here was one of the most controversial books ever written on one of the most controversial subjects in existence and they were nowhere to be found. Despite that, the ufological community was initially excited about Corso's book. Here we had someone who was a high ranking respected military officer, and there was even a powerful current Senator supporting him. Maybe this was finally a source who could bring some credibility to UFO investigative science and could give important clues about the truth regarding Roswell. But it was not to be.

Recall what I said earlier about UFO publicity and the government, somehow they always manage to to pull it off. Immediately after the book was published, Senator Thurmond's office issued a statement to the AP saying the foreword had been intended for another book (Thurmond had also agreed to write the foreword to another of Corso's books not having to do with UFOs) and that he did not support the ideas put forth in Corso's book and wanted his foreword removed. This caused a firestorm. As this was (supposedly, see below) a personal request from Senator Thurmond, Simon and Schuster had no choice but to oblige, and his foreword was pulled from future printings of the book (it only remains in the first printing). At this, the debunkers came out in full force and trashed Corso with everything they had. They claimed he pulled a bait and switch on the Senator, getting him to write the foreword for a different book and then including it in The Day After Roswell. They said he was a madman who made up tall fairly tales about aliens and government conspiracies. But there is something that points to a different explanation. Along with the foreword, Corso and his co-author WIlliam Birnes received a signed release from Senator Thurmond authorizing S&S to include the foreword in the book. And it clearly indicated The Day After Roswell as the book. This is normal, and most publishers require it before they will include a foreword or an introduction by someone other than the author. But this didn't matter to the debunkers, they simply said Corso forged the document. There are three possibilities I can see.

[coolmacdude]

The first, is that Corso is a complete fraud, made up the book, and deceived Senator Thurmond about the foreword. I find this incredibly difficult to believe. What possible reason would Corso have to make up as ridiculous a lie as TDAR would be if it is not true. Corso was a well respected military officer with an impeccable record of service. He took an incredible risk in coming forward with this book. Why would he risk his own reputation, as well as that of his family and friends, to propagate a lie? Surely he had to believe the ultimate truth regarding his book would eventually be borne out by history (as I believe it will be, one way or another). If it is a fake, what would possibly compel him to trade his respected status as a career military officer for the scorn and derision he would get being remembered as a fool? Why would he throw away his lifelong friendship with Sen. Thurmond and betray the Senator's trust and glowing praise of Corso by twisting his intentions around to support something he didn't? I have not been able to come up with even one possible reason. It definitely wasn't for money. Corso was 82 when the book was published and died a year afterward. He never saw a dime from it. Certainly if money was his motive he would have published the book a long time ago while he had time to reap the benefits. The only reason I can think of for why Col. Corso would do this is because of the overwhelming importance of the what he wanted to reveal. The contents of the Thurmond foreword are not in dispute. The man he describes is not even remotely one who would be capable of fabricating something of this caliber. Either Corso had a complete reversal of character after a long and distinguished life, or he felt it was worth the risk to his reputation to bring the truth out in the open. In addition, virtually everything in Corso's book that is not still classified (where he was, what he did, who he had contact with, developments in American industry, etc.) has been verified by outside sources.

Another possibility is that Senator Thurmond is senile, and was in some kind of delusional state when he wrote the foreword and authorized its use in TDAR. Then afterward, having come to his senses, he demanded it be removed. I consider this the least likely explanation, and so I will not say anything further about it.

The final possibility is that of foul play by the government. This is what I believe happened. Either the Senator was blackmailed or someone on his staff, either of their own volition or by order of someone else, released the statement for him. Consider that the government (possibly through the Senator's staff as well) tried all they could to get the Senator's comments removed before the book was published. Having failed to do that, it was clear only a statement from the Senator himself would have the power to do it. Corso believed this is what happened. Apparently Thurmond's staff were unaware the Senator had endorsed Corso and were shocked to find out about it. And because of the Senator's advanced age, his staff routinely did things on his behalf anyway. That fact is well known and is not in dispute. Perhaps someone on his staff was blackmailed by the same people who tried to have the foreword stripped to begin with. Or perhaps they were afraid having Senator Thurmond associated with UFOs would damage his reputation and in turn theirs. Or they may simply have been successful at convincing the Senator that associating himself with Roswell was not a good idea. Some have said these events are not possible, that no one would have the audacity to cover up Senator Thurmond's true feelings. To that I say this, would the same government who threatened people with their lives if they spoke the truth in 1947 be capable of suppressing the opinion of one Senator? It's a no brainer.

But regardless of who was responsible for Thurmond's reversal, it accomplished exactly what the government wanted. Corso's reputation went in the toilet and he was regarded as a lier and a crazy. In fact this was the only aspect about TDAR that received significant media coverage. As an example, Time Magazine ran an article containing a single paragraph attacking him, without even giving any context. Plus Senator Thurmond had been successfully distanced from the book. The government had killed two birds with one stone, destroying Corso's reputation and ending the official support of any gov. officials. No one believed Corso anymore, even many within the UFO research community. This is what shocked me the most. UFO investigators are always hunting for more witnesses and rarely dismiss anyone offhand, no matter how wild their story is. Yet even though Corso had some of the best credentials of anyone to ever speak on UFOs, the government was successful at convincing them he was a nutcase. And anyone who questioned the authenticity of Thurmond's statement was labeled a conspiracy theorist and lumped together with Corse in the fruitcake pile. Corso's death right after the book was published basically meant that he never had a chance to defend himself. To make matters worse, Corso's son was not immediately able to get the rights to the book, so eager to cash in on it in some way, he started a website (corsofiles.com) that offered a premium membership supposedly granting subscribers access to more "secret" material than was included in the book. The site went nowhere, was probably a scam, and was shut down shortly thereafter. This further damaged Corso's reputation, and most people are now comfortable in dismissing him as a lier. Again I say to that, why? At least give one possible reason? Anything?

Admittedly Corso did make one big mistake. He hired William Birnes as a co-author to write the book from his notes and documents rather than doing it himself. He probably felt that a professional writer could present the information better. Unfortunately this was wrong. The book was poorly edited. Even Birnes admitted mistakes were made to meet a deadline. And even worse, Birnes packaged the information together in a story format that resembled a work of fiction and he did so rather poorly. The result is that some of the book reads like a bad Sci-Fi novel. This was probably done to increase its palatability for the general public, especially those who didn't know a lot about Roswell. A dry scientific journal type of report would not have had the same wow factor. However (even though most people don't know it), scientific presentations and hard facts are far more respected in professional ufology than entertainment value. This was another reason many UFO researchers were reluctant to endorse Corso. I think he probably regretted this mistake. When asked about the questionable format of his book, Corso replied, "I had thousands of pages of information which I gave to my co-author, who took it and put it into a barely readable language." Corso also said he planned to write a second book stating things in a more matter of fact way and providing more verifiable documentation. But he died before he had the chance.

[coolmacdude]

But despite the government's efforts to suppress any official endorsement of Corso (the Thurmond foreword), no government agency or military officer has put out any information disagreeing with or attempting to disprove anything in the book, as they frequently do with many Roswell stories. Neither have they attacked Corso himself. In additon, the Pentagon and other military bases actually ordered hundreds of copies of the book, and it is still sold in the Pentagon bookstore today. Many people in the military appear to be supporting Corso if only be default. Corso provides some interesting reasons as to why this could be in the book. That has to do with the political intrigue that followed the Roswell events. After Gen. Twining divided up the artifacts and documents, different divisions put what they had into storage. Years later when they wanted to do something with it, each one only had part of the puzzle. The Air Force probably still had the craft. The Army had a lot of the pieces and the medical information on the crew. The Navy and CIA had whatever was initially given to them and what they had gleaned from others. But everyone wanted more. Any information about "the cargo" or "the package" as it came to be known within the government, was highly coveted. If Corso is telling the truth, this information could be valuable in determining the next step. My interpretation of Corso is that he was a highly respected military officer who felt compelled, even at the possible expense of his reputation, to talk about the incredibly important events he participated in and to provide the best interpretation he could as to what really happened. But unfortunately, government interference, bad writing, greed, and his untimely death combined to squelch what he was trying to say.

Keep in mind also, whether or not you agree with my assessment of Corso or the events surrounding his story, he is only one witness out of thousands to claim to have experienced UFO activity and/or alien contact. The amount of evidence that exists could fill a library. And much more would exist if people were not afraid to speak out because they would be publicly ridiculed. Until the science behind UFO investigation gains greater respect in the mainstream (something we are all working towards) and people stop believing everything the government says just because it's the government who's saying it, things will continue to be this way. Like the earth shattering ideas of the middle ages, those who's conclusions would lead to a radical reinterpretation of the universe and even life itself are always initially met with opposition, labeled insane, persecuted, et al. This is no different. In the face of overwhelming evidence, we eventually had to succumb to science and acknowledge that earth was not the center of the universe. But it took centuries. Similarly, it will take a long time for us to acknowledge that humans might not be the center of universal life. But that day will come.

Disclosure has to be the next step in the process. Corso reveals in the book that after President Truman was informed about the Roswell event he initially wanted to make it public immediately. However Gen. Twining and others convinced him otherwise fearing another War of the Worlds (which had occurred only 9 years before Roswell). Then, according to Corso, Twining came up with a brilliant plan. He knew a secret like the existence of extraterrestrial life would be far too big for the government to keep forever. So he proposed gradually revealing it over many years. He knew things would leak out, people would talk, etc. But if that translated into a gradual disclosure of small bits at a time, then the public would become accustomed to the existence of alien life through culture (books, movies, TV) as well as information that leaked from the government. If this is true, then this plan has worked admirably. If aliens are real and the Roswell events happened as the witnesses say, then most of the information is already public. Even the general populace would now know what the aliens look like, what kind of vehicles they fly, and the kinds of activities they engage in. As a result of this, a government announcement that alien visitation is a reality would be far less shocking today than it would have been in 1947. However, clearly whoever within the government controls this information still feels the time is not yet right. Corso even sensed that he himself was part of the disclosure process. That he was given access to things even though some people might have known he would be more likely to make them public at a later date. Normal procedure was not to tell anyone who didn't already know. This was dispensed with when he was given the file cabinent. And since no government official has challenged the book, he felt someone made a decision that the public was ready for the next step in the revelation. But, even if there is some kind of master government plan to eventually reveal the truth, that doesn't really make me feel any better. I still want to know now.

So where do we go from here? Easy. We find out what we can on our own. For myself, I no longer need the government's explanation. Many others who have researched the Roswell incident have reached the same conclusion. Here is another report by Kent Jeffrey that provides some additional information. The amount of stuff I have studied has already convinced me of what is going on in the skies. In the 57 years since Roswell, there has been almost an exponential increase in the number of reported UFO sightings and abductions. Both these phenomena are a reality and anyone who tries to dismiss them all as hoaxes, mass delusions, or whatever else, has just made up their minds and simply isn't willing to accept any more evidence that disagrees with their beliefs. Many people do exactly that though.

These people follow Stan Friedman's 4 rules of debunkery:

1. What the public doesn't know, we are not going to tell them.

2. Don't bother us with the facts, our minds are made up.

3. If we can't attack the data, we will attack the people; it is much easier.

4. Do one's research by proclamation, rather than investigation. It is much easier and most people won't know the difference.

Well I think that's about all I have to say for now. If anyone has any questions about information in this report or would like to know where I got any of this information or would like more outside sources to read, I would be glad to answer any questions. If anyone would like to read an interview with Col. Corso, one is available here. It was conducted by Michael Lindemann of CNI News before he died.

I look forward to the day when the government will finally trust the people with the knowledge and the truth can be spoken freely.

Best Wishes,
-Jonathan Reitnauer

(If ufology is ever to gain more scientific respect, we can't be afraid to publicly associate ourselves with genuine interest and investigation into it.
This is an important scientific field like any other.)

[eklipse]

Interesting reading. Thanks, coolmacdude.

[Sven G]

Yes, very interesting.

The only caveat, IMHO, is that those Roswell aliens looked very much like the "typical" (!), stereotyped extra-terrestrial humanoids: very ugly, with enormous heads, disproportionate, and so on.

Not really sure about that thing - which, anyway, doesn't invalidate the UFO phenomenon in general in any way.

Personally, I'm rather an agnostic on this front. The most important, "practical" thing is, anyway, IMHO, to try to develop some form of new energy and new propulsion for flying vehicles, for us humans (trains, on the ground, are, of course, already - in principle - magnetically levitated, even if the technology isn't yet in so widespread use: see, for example, the various German, Swiss and Japanese projects around the world)...

[coolmacdude]

Originally posted by Sven G:
The only caveat, IMHO, is that those Roswell aliens looked very much like the "typical" (!), stereotyped extra-terrestrial humanoid: very ugly, with enormous heads, disproportionate, and so on.

Yes however keep in mind that that image did not become widely recognized as the "alien" stereotype until after Roswell. It made a few appearances beforehand from claimed abduction experiences, but did not achieve widespread popularity in UFO accounts/movies etc. until afterward.

[coolmacdude]

As someone previously mentioned, the Disclosure Project is one of the most important movements of the recent era to putting the study of the UFO phenomena out into the mainstream and revealing the coverup that remains in place by the government today. They have over 400 credible witnesses who are retired military officers, former intelligence agents, defense contractors, scientists who have worked on these classified projects, and others who have testified as to what they saw and were told to keep quiet about.

They have credible evidence that not even recent Presidents have had access to this information, because it is so secret.

The group even held a major press conference in May 2001 where 20 of these witnesses gave testimony and answered questions from the media. Dr. Greer, head of the Disclosure Project also gave a summary of what his 8 year research into UFOs and his interviews with all of these witnesses has revealed.

Yet again, this event was rebuffed by the mainstream media and most people still don't know about it.

You can watch a steam of it here: (Windows Media 9 required)
http://69.56.146.50/netrostream113/npcc.wmv

To make matters worse, the Congressional hearings and more open disclosure of classified projects the group is advocating were sidetracked by 9/11 and the gov. really is less interested in revealing secrets now than they would have been beforehand.

But the battle continues nonetheless.