Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

RedHerring · Jun 20, 2005, 10:22 PM

Just a quick update to any Firefox users out there...

From Josh Aas's blog:

Firefox Mac Builds with CFRunLoop

I posted a test build of Firefox to the mozilla.org FTP site.

ftp://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.or...ac.PLEVENT.dmg

This build uses the CFRunLoop event system, which should be a major performance win, especially for plugins and drawing. We need the community to test this quite a bit so we can try to get this in for Firefox 1.1. Give it a spin and let me know how it goes!

quietjim · Jun 20, 2005, 11:00 PM

This link actually downloads an application called Deerpark.

Millennium · Jun 20, 2005, 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by quietjim

This link actually downloads an application called Deerpark.

"Deer Park" is the codename for the prerelease builds of Firefox 1.1. They're using the codename to distinguish it from release-quality builds.

Truth be told, I haven't seen much of a speed boost per se, though Flash is definitely animating more smoothly and it's using much less CPU time. The big win for me, though, is that it seems to have fixed the SPROD issues I was having with certain Flash files.

PurpleGiant · Jun 20, 2005, 11:10 PM

Deer Park is the code name of the new Firefox version under development. It will be renamed Firefox when it's out for public release.

EDIT: beaten by mil

CharlesS · Jun 20, 2005, 11:11 PM

Originally Posted by quietjim

This link actually downloads an application called Deerpark.

They change the name of the development builds to remind you that this is not a final release build and may have bugs.

turtle777 · Jun 21, 2005, 10:03 AM

Using optimized builds for G3, G4 or G5 processors helps a lot as well, speedwise.

-t

Randman · Jun 21, 2005, 10:33 AM

Still liking Safari 2.0 more on OSX. FF kills on Windoze, though.

stevek · Jun 21, 2005, 10:40 AM

Will we ever get a verzion of Firefox that Zoom(s) correctly? I like being able to use my Apple+Shift+Z keyboard shortcut to keep my screen real estate on my PB in check, and using Safari, it kicks butt. Firefox leaves a lot to be desired, though.

Millennium · Jun 21, 2005, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by turtle777

Using optimized builds for G3, G4 or G5 processors helps a lot as well, speedwise.

I've used these before, but do they have optimized builds with CFRunLoop yet? Last I remember, Firefox wasn't building quite right on Tiger, and so they had to stop making optimized nightlies for a while.

TETENAL · Jun 21, 2005, 11:24 AM

Should have used RAEL instead of CFRunLoop directly.

Millennium · Jun 21, 2005, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Should have used RAEL instead of CFRunLoop directly.

As I understand it, they're going with CFRunLoop because Camino had already switched to that model, so the first attempt at getting it into Firefox was just a matter of throwing a few switches. Of course, nothing is really that simple -there are always bugs- but the initial effort to get it ported was very small.

A question, though: what would be the advantage of RAEL over CFRunLoop? I haven't been able to find much documentation on the matter, but if I understand things correctly switching to RAEL would cause problems with Camino because of the Carbon/Cocoa mix.

TETENAL · Jun 21, 2005, 12:03 PM

I would assume Camino uses NSRunLoop (i. e. just let Cocoa handle the run loop stuff). And that's what Firefox should do as well; use the API with the highest level available for the task – which would be RAEL for a Carbon app. Whenever you use higher level APIs you automatically benefit from change, optimizations etc. Apple makes at underlying technologies. The lower level the API you use is, the more you are on yourself.

ph0ust · Jun 21, 2005, 03:02 PM

when are they going to make it a tabbed browser that actually opens tabs instead of windows? i like firefox quite a bit, but it seems that opera is the only browser that will open ALL links in tabs. even if i set the preferences in firefox to open tabs it always opens a new window (yes, i know that if i use a hotkey or if i right click i can select open in new tab, but i don't want to do that nor is it the way a TABBED browser should work). safari is the same. firefox does this even under windows os. i just don't get it.

F_Elz · Jun 21, 2005, 03:20 PM

Opera sounds like what you want. Although it's not everyone's type.

Randman · Jun 21, 2005, 03:26 PM

Opera =

Millennium · Jun 21, 2005, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

I would assume Camino uses NSRunLoop (i. e. just let Cocoa handle the run loop stuff).

The Cocoa parts of Camino probably do this, but the Gecko engine is Carbon. As I understand things, to integrate this kind of Carbon code into Cocoa's event loop you have to drop down to CFRunLoop in the Carbon code; RAEL won't work directly. Apparently, both RAEL and NSRunLoop build upon CFRunLoop -there are functions which allow you to extract the CFRunLoop from both of these- but they are not mutually compatible.

See this document for Apple's explanation of how Cocoa and Carbon both build on top of CFRunLoop.

And that's what Firefox should do as well; use the API with the highest level available for the task – which would be RAEL for a Carbon app.

Except that, as I understand this, RAEL will not work. The Gecko engine must remain embeddable in Cocoa, and using RAEL would not allow that. The point is that Firefox is using the highest-level tool available for their task, but RAEL is not that tool. This is the entire point of exposing technology at multiple levels (as with CFRunLoop and NSRunLoop/RAEL): different technologies have different needs.

Whenever you use higher level APIs you automatically benefit from change, optimizations etc. Apple makes at underlying technologies.

Given that RAEL builds on CFRunLoop, it is somewhat unlikely that Firefox will miss out on very much. There aren't many -if, in fact, there are any- layers of abstraction between the two technologies. Firefox will still benefit from any optimizations and changes Apple makes up through CFRunLoop.

albook · 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by Millennium

I've used these before, but do they have optimized builds with CFRunLoop yet? Last I remember, Firefox wasn't building quite right on Tiger, and so they had to stop making optimized nightlies for a while.

Drumsticks share G5 optimized Firefox Trunk builds with the CFRunLoop patch included: http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?t=256517
I have been avaiting feedback on the patch before I include it into my G4 optimized builds. But since there seem to be no major regressions, I'll give it a shot tomorrow.

Its correct that the Firefox build process was broken on Mac OS 10.4, but only for a few days.
I received Mac OS 10.4 april 28. and the build process was broken until Mark Mentovai came up with a patch may 5.
I'm currently building Firefox on Mac OS 10.4.1, using GCC 4.0.0 (Xcode 2.1)!

Follow the link in my signature...

Edit: The CFRunLoop patch (bug #282940) have just been checked in. So it will be included in all Trunk builds from tomorrow.

TETENAL · Jun 21, 2005, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by Millennium

The Cocoa parts of Camino probably do this, but the Gecko engine is Carbon.

The Gecko engine works with its own Gecko events or whatever they are called. All platform native events are translated into those Gecko events. It is my understanding that Camino directly translates the Cocoa events into Gecko events. There's not intermediate CFRunLoop stuff.

You know, I don't know any immediate disadvantage of using CFRunLoop, but Mozilla's tendency of always using the lowest level API leads to both severe code-bloat and that non-native feeling that the Mozilla.org apps suffer from (except of Camino of course which has chosen to use the high-level Cocoa APIs wherever possible). I just happen to disagree with their design philosophy.