[Uncle Skeleton]

Have you ever tried the mental exercise of casting aside your personality for a moment and trying to argue the other side? Maybe we can have a thread where everyone posting must only argue the side they don't believe (and leave your sarcasm tags at the door). I'll start


You know, there really is only one way to bring peace to an unsettled area like the middle east, and that's to systematically eliminate all the countries/organizations that have proved themselves unacceptable by insisting on violence. Iraq, Iran, Palestine, all of them. I don't mean killing anyone, just dismantling their governments and collecting them under the rule of a malevolent 3rd party, like the US. We can keep order in the region in a fair and balanced way, and individual people can finally get on with their lives. In peace. It worked for ancient China, at least so the martial arts movies tell us.


Ooh, that was a change of pace. I'm up for another one.


How can we really know that evolution happened, short of going back in time? By its nature we can't reproduce it in a timely fashion. It can't be proved or disproved (nor can any scientific theory), so what good is it, besides a useful framework for organizing the natural world. Well what's another useful framework for world organizing that may or may not be true? The bible, that's what. Also, W(here)TF did viruses come from, anyway?


Who's next?

[mojo2]

If the Bushies saw past their fear that doom was impending EVERY SECOND OF THE DAY, they might find there actually IS room to at least TALK to Syria or Iran, directly. Even if it's nothing more than to say:

"We don't want war but if you are trying to establish a global caliphate we must stop you."

And even if they respond by calling for a worldwide holy war, at least we would have TRIED to negotiate! At least we talked about it first.

[ebuddy]

Abortion is a necessary evil for hedging against over population and unwanted children. While statistically, there is little to show that there will be more "wanted children", think about it. If you don't want a child and you abort it, you have one less child that you didn't want. Pregnancy is painful and could potentially hinder schooling and career.

Bush is a war monger. If we want to eliminate terror, start with the CIA.

Religion causes societal ills and also propogates more religiosity statistically relieving societal ills, but I know people that grow up religious that were repressed and went crazy when they left the house. Christianity is particularly to blame for our societal problems because of this.

Evolution is fact.

[Dakar]

This won't turn into mass level patronization. No siree

[BlueSky]

I was admiring Bush's brown suit recently. It reminds me of Reagan, whom I sorely miss.

[Shaddim]

I've thought about doing this for a while, changing political "sides" for a week or so, just to look at things from a different perspective. However, last time I did this, perhaps a decade ago, when I reverted back I was more conservative than when I started the exercise.

[moodymonster]

I can't not do sarcasm...

I'm going to volunteer for the Labour party because I believe in their manifesto - regardless of what it happens to be at the time - I don't accept the notion that their manifesto changes to reflect that of the Conservatives, or that the reverse is true. I also believe Tony Blair is an honest and true leader. I have complete trust and faith in UK politicians. I don't believe that John Prescott's son is involved in any shady dealings with regard to buying up 'brown' land which is then cleared by his father (deputy PM) for development.

I have no contempt for those that sit in the Palace of Westminster.

...see, sarcasm.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

I've thought about doing this for a while, changing political "sides" for a week or so, just to look at things from a different perspective. However, last time I did this, perhaps a decade ago, when I reverted back I was more conservative than when I started the exercise.

I feel like it would be more productive (or at least entertaining) if everyone did it at once. We get into ruts, and if just one person switches ruts, all you have is a rut imbalance.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by mojo2

If the Bushies saw past their fear that doom was impending EVERY SECOND OF THE DAY, they might find there actually IS room to at least TALK to Syria or Iran, directly. Even if it's nothing more than to say:

"We don't want war but if you are trying to establish a global caliphate we must stop you."

And even if they respond by calling for a worldwide holy war, at least we would have TRIED to negotiate! At least we talked about it first.

No, if we allow even one hostile state to remain, under the guise of neutrality, it will just become a haven for terrorists. It's us or them. Basically, the only outcome is that one ideology will end having to conquer the world and eliminate all the others, otherwise terrorists might kill people sometimes. It might as well be our ideology that takes over, because let's face it, ours is the best one.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by ebuddy

Abortion is a necessary evil for hedging against over population and unwanted children.

Not necessarily, there's also forced sterilization (or unforced, if you want to take all the fun out of it )

Bush is a war monger. If we want to eliminate terror, start with the CIA.

That's completely different. US "terror" is just retaliation for far worse crimes. The CIA's victims abandoned all human rights when they chose to take up terrorist activities.

Evolution is fact.

Nothing in science is "fact."

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

I've thought about doing this for a while, changing political "sides" for a week or so, just to look at things from a different perspective. However, last time I did this, perhaps a decade ago, when I reverted back I was more conservative than when I started the exercise.

Same here. I was once *gasp* a registered Dem. Even voted for Clinton the first time around.

Course I was 18-25 during this fuzzy period.

But after seeing lots of stuff, I switched sides.

Now I don't consider myself either side. Just too much crap going on.

I don't believe in sides anymore. And I wish America as a whole didn't either.

Vote for the person running, not the party.

[Rumor]

Bush is so great. He knows exactly what this country needs. The economy is booming, there are more jobs than ever and war is the only way we will ever "free" the Middle East.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton

No, if we allow even one hostile state to remain, under the guise of neutrality, it will just become a haven for terrorists. It's us or them. Basically, the only outcome is that one ideology will end having to conquer the world and eliminate all the others, otherwise terrorists might kill people sometimes. It might as well be our ideology that takes over, because let's face it, ours is the best one.

Anyone who is sincerely interested in a peaceful outcome has to admit that the existence of just one country where Islam and secularism co-exist robustly, peacefully and in harmony and respectful of their neighbors and their borders means that there is hope for peaceful co-existence on a global scale.

The country I'm thinking of is Turkey.

My only problem is that the Turkish government controls the Mosques and the Imams teachings in Turkey, thanks to Ataturk.

Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (IPA: [ˈmustafa keˈmal ˈataˌtyɾk]; March 12, 1881–November 10, 1938), until 1934 Gazi Mustafa Kemal Pasha, Turkish army officer and revolutionist statesman, was the founder and the first President of the Republic of Turkey. Mustafa Kemal established himself as a successful military commander while serving as a division commander in the Battle of Gallipoli.

Following the defeat of the Ottoman Empire at the hands of the Allies, and the subsequent plans for its partition, Mustafa Kemal led the Turkish national movement in what would become the Turkish War of Independence. His successful military campaigns led to the liberation of the country and the establishment of the Republic of Turkey.

As the Republic's first president, Mustafa Kemal introduced a range of far reaching reforms which sought to create a modern, ostensibly democratic and secular state. According to the Law on Family Names, the Turkish Grand Assembly presented Mustafa Kemal with the name "Atatürk" (meaning "Father" or "Ancestor Turk") on November 24, 1934. Mustafa Kemal Atatürk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He was brutal in forcing political and cultural changes on the peoples and yet, even though the change eventually took hold, Turkey is still in the process of change.

This should be noted by those who believe that America can just come into the Persian Gulf area like an elephant in a china store and run roughshod over the customs and sensibilities of the peoples in trying to force new ways on them.

It has been nearly 100 years that Turkey has followed the course envisioned by Ataturk and the delicate relationships between the secular and the Islamic are STILL evolving.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Rumor

Bush is so great. He knows exactly what this country needs. The economy is booming, there are more jobs than ever and war is the only way we will ever "free" the Middle East.

While he may see his course of action as necessary to establish a global line in the sand from which to stop the spread of Islam, I get the idea that the Islamic world is holding it's breath and waiting for some grand display by Pres. Bush to create a new state of rapprochement with the Islamic world.

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by mojo2

While he may see his course of action as necessary to establish a global line in the sand from which to stop the spread of Islam, I get the idea that the Islamic world is holding it's breath and waiting for some grand display by Pres. Bush to create a new state of rapprochement with the Islamic world.

You don't understand the point of this thread, do you?

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Rumor

You don't understand the point of this thread, do you?

Actually, I do.

I guess I'm not extremely cartoonish enough for you, huh?

Should I utter "Bush sukks" a few times to make you happy?

I'm assuming the role of an intelligent moderate Muslim interested in looking at things objectively. Because I consider myself an intelligent moderate Christian interested in looking at things objectively, this position represents my opposite.

Who are you pretending to represent?

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Anyone who is sincerely interested in a peaceful outcome has to admit that the existence of just one country where Islam and secularism co-exist robustly, peacefully and in harmony and respectful of their neighbors and their borders means that there is hope for peaceful co-existence on a global scale.

The country I'm thinking of is Turkey.

Why not the old U S of A? We have muslims here, and they've managed to get along without blowing anything up. Clearly, they can live fine in our society, just don't let them try to run a country of their own. For whatever reason, they're clearly not qualified.

And in America we don't even bother with this part:

My only problem is that the Turkish government controls the Mosques and the Imams teachings in Turkey, thanks to Ataturk.

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Who are you pretending to represent?

A Bush fan like yourself.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton

Why not the old U S of A? We have muslims here, and they've managed to get along without blowing anything up. Clearly, they can live fine in our society, just don't let them try to run a country of their own. For whatever reason, they're clearly not qualified.

And in America we don't even bother with this part:

No, I think your President and his military are trying, with mixed results, to allow the fledgling Iraqi government to take hold and grow into the job of governing their country, THEIR WAY.

However, you may have noticed a few weeks ago during the height of the Israeli assault on Lebanon that Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki came out in support of Hezbollah. Certain instincts die slowly. I think, along with your law enforcement efforts, your society acts as a transformative element in helping to keep Islamic jihad minimized. And that points out the importance of an environment in supporting certain types of growth.

Where in the USA jihad is minimized, in other countries it flourishes.

But on the other hand Democracy flourishes in America, but it is stunted in it's growth or even in it's ability to take root in other countries.

I believe Islamic nations and rulers have done a fair job of governing their nations and, inshallah they will continue to govern well under Islam. However, these are the most difficult of circumstances for a young government to face and certain habits die slowly but if there is to be a free Iraq with equality for both Shia and Sunni as well as Kurds it will not be an American solution which brings about peace. It will be an Islamic solution. And at the end of the day, whether you leave Iraq or not will be to YOUR credit or shame.

If Iraq becomes an Islamic state such as Iran it will be because Allah deems it so and I will have learned never again to go against the word of Allah.

But if you wish to have a truly Democratic iraq you must understand that some things can not be rushed. If you are more concerned with leaving then why don't you go now and stop all the killing having to do with your presence?! Just go. And the Iraqi people will clean up the mess that you brought to them. And one day brothers may stop killing brothers in Iraq. But you will have shown your true colors for all the world to see and you should not be proud of the sight.

Whether you stay or after you are gone, Muslims will govern Iraq. But if you leave without Iraq becoming an enduring democracy, I believe that will help assure and hasten the day when you will learn the true character of Islamic leadership, first hand.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Rumor

A Bush fan like yourself.

Wow! When abe isn't available maybe you could stand in for him. I mean your posting styles are SO similar.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton

We get into ruts, and if just one person switches ruts, all you have is a rut imbalance.

They's grooves, not ruts.



On-topic: Damn, I'm ugly.

[Stradlater]

Agnostics just can't make up their mind!

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by mojo2

But if you wish to have a truly Democratic iraq you must understand that some things can not be rushed. If you are more concerned with leaving then why don't you go now and stop all the killing having to do with your presence?! Just go.

Who cares if they are democratic or not? I just want them to be peaceful. The simplest way to accomplish that is imperialism. And imperialism is not consistent with "just go now," or even "just go later." If you know of a better way to foster peace than imperialism, I'd like to hear it, and a justification of how it will work in the face of what we know about these nations.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton

Who cares if they are democratic or not? I just want them to be peaceful. The simplest way to accomplish that is imperialism. And imperialism is not consistent with "just go now," or even "just go later." If you know of a better way to foster peace than imperialism, I'd like to hear it, and a justification of how it will work in the face of what we know about these nations.

Ahhh! Then we have reached an agreement. There can be peace if the world is Islamic. And since Islam is winning (after all, you and your 'posse' are tied up, facing great internal discord, your taxes are going to fatten the already too phat fat cats and kill your noble troops, the military families are already paying a greater burden of this war than in any other war in American history and well, you know all the reasons) not only in Iraq but in Israel and we are achieving victory all over the world wherever we go, it is Allah's will that his followers should be shown favor.

4:69 "Whoso obeyeth Allah and the messenger, they are with those unto whom Allah hath shown favour, of the prophets and the saints and the martyrs and the righteous. The best of company are they!"

You should just surrender and don't worry. It will not be as bad or as painful as some portray it to be.

When you go to someone's messy home is that pleasant? Or is there pain when you enter a home which is clean and well ordered? For most people a sense of pleasure and relaxation and contentment comes from living in a sense of order.

The Islamic world is merely different from what you are used to. But just like going into a well ordered home of a friend, you quickly get used to the order and soon enjoy a sense of well being.

Think of it. No more war. No more big business taking advantage of the downtrodden. No more scare tactics and hate mongering.

Peace can be yours.

Allah smiles on you.

[Spliffdaddy]

We should shun this failed capitalistic experiment and create a government whose sole responsibility is to ensure our every need is met. And we should model it after the French government. Food, shelter, healthcare, and education shouldn't cost us a dime. It's well past time for the wealthy and the corporations to PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE. Our government will dictate the salaries of executives. Everyone will share the wealth. Doctors and bartenders will have the same income. Fossil fuel vehicles will be taxed at 400% of their value, while electric cars will be free - courtesy of government subsidies. There will be no "war on drugs", no misguided "war on terror".
All those who choose to work must join a labor union. Our federal government representatives will be appointed by the local union presidents, on our behalf. Education will no longer be "outcome-based", which is unfair to students who are academically-challenged - as well as detrimental to the well-being of our cherished teachers.
National security will be provided by the UN. Our current military will be disbanded, and all officers will be jailed. The position of "Commander in Chief" will cease to exist, as we will rely on the judgement of the world community in order to protect our national interests.
Jews, Christians, and other hate-based faiths will not be tolerated. The only accepted religion will be Islam. The government will promote an atheistic society - as will the education system.
Blacks, Hispanics, and Pacific Islanders will be entitled to 50% of all white men's income - in order to make reparations for their past sins.
Abortions will be required for all women - at the government's expense - in an effort to eliminate unwanted children. Live childbirths will become wards of the state and donated to science for fetal stem cell research.
Guns, knives, knitting needles, and other dangerous weapons are to be confiscated by the UN peacekeepers - which will patrol every neighborhood, and negate the need for police officers.
All citizens registered as Republicans will be required to attend indoctrination camps, where they will be taught how to be more open-minded - or simply shot.

[mojo2]

Amen frère, Spliffdaddy!

And when the man refuses to agree to our demands we should all pour out into the streets in protest and we should do this several times a year. What a beautiful thing!

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Ahhh! Then we have reached an agreement. There can be peace if the world is Islamic.

No there can't. Muslim nations have fought each other for millenia.

And since Islam is winning

No they're not. Their death rate is higher than ours (the US). Even if they are resisting us successfully, that's hardly "winning." If things continue exactly as they are, I think that's called a stale mate. Neither side is within reach of destroying the other, only tormenting it.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Live childbirths will become wards of the state and donated to science for fetal stem cell research.

Nice. Can we also maintain our population with little clones of Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter?

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton

No there can't. Muslim nations have fought each other for millenia.



No they're not. Their death rate is higher than ours (the US). Even if they are resisting us successfully, that's hardly "winning." If things continue exactly as they are, I think that's called a stale mate. Neither side is within reach of destroying the other, only tormenting it.

The only thing that's stale, mate, is your argument.

I think you are too prideful and that your side's pride will be it's downfall. We fight for common decency and values which even Americans can respect. We look at all of the wantonness and decadence from the west and we see how your evil and wickedness seep into our society and we do NOT think, "salaam aleikum!"

You just keep your asses out of the Islam lands! You are not wanted here and we will never accept your democracy. Big friggin deal! Democracy can kiss my sanskrit!

[Uncle Skeleton]

Democracy is a gift. If you don't want it, fine with me, you're no longer welcome to it. But you darn well better stop spreading death and destruction, or your ass will be conquered.

Doesn't it make you the slightest bit nervous that we Americans already wiped out a whole continent of "Indians?" It's not like we're gun shy about genocide.

[jamil5454]

Go America!

Genocide isn't exactly something to be proud of. You know, it goes both ways. Americans can be wiped out too.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton

Democracy is a gift. If you don't want it, fine with me, you're no longer welcome to it. But you darn well better stop spreading death and destruction, or your ass will be conquered.

Doesn't it make you the slightest bit nervous that we Americans already wiped out a whole continent of "Indians?" It's not like we're gun shy about genocide.

Tabari IX:69 "Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah's helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We Fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will Fight him forever in the Cause of Allah. Killing him is a small matter to us."

You love life. We love death.

[badidea]

Originally Posted by Doofy

On-topic: Damn, I'm ugly.

Yeah, I puked when I looked in the mirror this morning!

[analogika]

Originally Posted by mojo2

I consider myself an intelligent moderate Christian interested in looking at things objectively

Yes, you are all of those things.

[mojo2]

The level of discourse on FNC's "Fox and Friends" morning show borders on the idiotic.

Dumbed down discussion and not very funny. Ugh! How can anyone watch that regularly?

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton

Not necessarily, there's also forced sterilization (or unforced, if you want to take all the fun out of it )

Compassionate Conservatism hard at work here I suppose.

That's completely different. US "terror" is just retaliation for far worse crimes. The CIA's victims abandoned all human rights when they chose to take up terrorist activities.

You may call freedom-fighting terrorism. Paul Revere; terrorist, George Washington; terrorist, Gen. Corwallis; terrorist. A fundamentalist Christian jihad of the highest order.

Nothing in science is "fact."

I suppose the young, flat-earth Creationists hold the lock on "facts" huh? You're right, nothing in science is fact. Nothing except, theory supported by empirical evidence standing the test of over a century of zealots like those who claim nothing in science is fact.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

We should shun this failed capitalistic experiment and create a government whose sole responsibility is to ensure our every need is met. And we should model it after the French government. Food, shelter, healthcare, and education shouldn't cost us a dime. It's well past time for the wealthy and the corporations to PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE. Our government will dictate the salaries of executives. Everyone will share the wealth. Doctors and bartenders will have the same income. Fossil fuel vehicles will be taxed at 400% of their value, while electric cars will be free - courtesy of government subsidies. There will be no "war on drugs", no misguided "war on terror".
All those who choose to work must join a labor union. Our federal government representatives will be appointed by the local union presidents, on our behalf. Education will no longer be "outcome-based", which is unfair to students who are academically-challenged - as well as detrimental to the well-being of our cherished teachers.
National security will be provided by the UN. Our current military will be disbanded, and all officers will be jailed. The position of "Commander in Chief" will cease to exist, as we will rely on the judgement of the world community in order to protect our national interests.
Jews, Christians, and other hate-based faiths will not be tolerated. The only accepted religion will be Islam. The government will promote an atheistic society - as will the education system.
Blacks, Hispanics, and Pacific Islanders will be entitled to 50% of all white men's income - in order to make reparations for their past sins.
Abortions will be required for all women - at the government's expense - in an effort to eliminate unwanted children. Live childbirths will become wards of the state and donated to science for fetal stem cell research.
Guns, knives, knitting needles, and other dangerous weapons are to be confiscated by the UN peacekeepers - which will patrol every neighborhood, and negate the need for police officers.
All citizens registered as Republicans will be required to attend indoctrination camps, where they will be taught how to be more open-minded - or simply shot.

I mean...

err...

[ebuddy]

I've got no rhythm.