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typoon · Feb 16, 2001, 05:32 PM

Here is a site that has the images of both OS's Notice the MANY things that windows copied. it is in German but the Pictures speak for themselves.

here is the site http://www.robs-world.de/tmp/vergleich.jpg

Notice how lame XP is. geez they eve took the flower pictue too.

mindwaves · Feb 16, 2001, 05:43 PM

I didn't even know that they took the flower. First the duck, then the flower, then iTunes, then the Aqua interface. Microsoft really digusts me. EVERYONE, BOYCOTT THEIR PRODUCTS PLEASE!!!!!! I will do my part then Microsoft will learn.

nealconner · Feb 16, 2001, 05:48 PM

I use windozes (I have no choice), BUT... I'll use Netscape 4.7 and StarOffice instead of IE and Word. The similarities! Its disgusting.

RAzaRazor · Feb 16, 2001, 05:50 PM

That is Awesome!

I love the german statements of disgust! (Or at least looks like disgust from my non-german speaking POV!)

RR

foobars · Feb 16, 2001, 05:51 PM

As much as I dislike the Luna interface I have to admit this is a pretty lame comparison.

Whoever made this should note:
1) The magnifying glass was Microsoft's first. Apple copied it.
2) The Windows and OSX folders have nothing in common. One is blue, one is manillia. One is open, one is closed. If anything Luna's logos are more like OS8's only flipped.
3) The power icon is a convention. Everyone uses it.
4) So they copied a duck. Get over it.
5) I don't know what the person who made this graphic is saying about the trash, but putting it in the lower-right corner is no crime. Remember the trash is in the dock now. You can start worrying when the recycle bin gets moved to the task bar.

More than anything this picture proves Microsoft has done a great job of copying OS8, and how is that anything new.

[This message has been edited by foobars (edited 02-16-2001).]

shmerek · Feb 16, 2001, 06:03 PM

Windows ist sehr schleckt!

gorgonzola · Feb 16, 2001, 11:36 PM

Actually, that page was funny because of the German but kind of wrong. Even if they did steal those icons, who cares? It's not like the stupid flower is part of the OS! Ah, the yellow flower, you know that, the document that is not even installed with Mac OS X. It's only in their screenshots.

Yes, it does make them look kind of similar, but I don't think it's that big a deal if they stole a duck or two here and there (although, I must admit that the duck was cool). What's more serious is their blatant infringement on the soon-to-be-well-known X of Mac OS X. WinXP -- Mac OS X? Not enough of a difference. That's what really bugs me.

Also what bugs me is that they think Luna is a competitor to Aqua. Luna is (a) ass-ugly and (b) pretty nonfunctional. I do agree that Win2k was a pretty good OS, probably the best version of Windows they've released, but WinXP, despite all the good things about it (.NET (although this depends on what you think of .NET), vector graphics layer, that "login pausing" thing, merging of consumer OS and pro OS, speed, stability, ease of use, integration, etc), is not good. Although all the features I listed above are probably present, I'm betting that MS's implementation of these features is woefully suboptimal.

Showed it to a few Windows users today and they spent about ten minutes bitching about the name ("what the hell is 'XP'?!?") and another ten bitching about how Luna blows.

By MWNY 2002, I think we'll be in a very different place than we are now...

------------------
the oddball newsletter
------------------
it's only after you lose everything that you're free to do anything

PMG4DP · Feb 17, 2001, 04:59 PM

The point is...they stole OUR duck!!! I love that duck!

------------------
"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Translation..."One people, one empire, one leader"

Cipher13 · Feb 17, 2001, 05:25 PM

Originally posted by gorgonzola:
Also what bugs me is that they think Luna is a competitor to Aqua. Luna is (a) ass-ugly and (b) pretty nonfunctional.

By MWNY 2002, I think we'll be in a very different place than we are now...

It is a competitor.
(a) - some people don't care about looks.
(b) - have you actually used it? If not don't speak of functionality.

Yes... I agree we will be. Whether that is a good place or a bad place, only time will tell...

Cipher13

bleen · Feb 17, 2001, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by PMG4DP:
The point is...they stole OUR duck!!! I love that duck!

Let's all call Apple. Get to the highest level of Management you can on the phone or Highest level in Apple Legal. Demand that they Sue MS about the theft of the rubber duck (and other icons/object) that Microsoft stole. Allowing MS to make changes and improvements that aren't stolen from Apple.

Or... leave XP is it's sadden state, wait till OS X comes out. OS X vs. Win XP will Hurt if not Kill MS. (In a hurt state Apple Legal can come in and the US Justice department allied again't the falling empire) Afterwards, we laugh and laugh and laugh, and a Mac/UNIX unfication will be harmony to the world... they should make it an addition to "It's a Small World" at Disneyland, people wearing UNIX and Mac shirts singing together.

[This message has been edited by bleen (edited 02-17-2001).]

Cipher13 · Feb 17, 2001, 07:17 PM

<<Gets an image of people in Mac and Unix shirts holding hands dancing around in a circle in a green pasture with a rainbow in the sky, singing some happy song>>
*shudder*

Cipher13

John_McKee · Feb 17, 2001, 08:52 PM

I have yet to see this duck picture, where can I find it. (from the windows screenshot)

-john

Cipher13 · Feb 17, 2001, 09:03 PM

Here ya go:

Cipher13

jamesa · Feb 17, 2001, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by Cipher13:
Here ya go:

Cipher13

What is this "turn off kitchen computer" business?

I wouldn't put any windows products anywhere near my kitchen appliances. Lord knows what it might do to them.

------------------
"When you've just got a shiny new hammer, every problem looks like a nail." -- Anonymous

Cipher13 · Feb 17, 2001, 09:25 PM

Hahaha, burnt toast for breakfast every morning

I'd say thats the name the user gives to the computer - "Kitchen computer".
So it could have "Turn off my computer", or "Turn of wintel crap" or whatnot...

Cipher13

WeEeEeEdAsH · Feb 17, 2001, 10:48 PM

Does someone have the pic? It won't load...

mindwaves · Feb 17, 2001, 10:50 PM

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/g...ndowslogon.gif

ctt1wbw · Feb 17, 2001, 11:54 PM

Originally posted by Cipher13:
Hahaha, burnt toast for breakfast every morning
I'd say thats the name the user gives to the computer - "Kitchen computer".
So it could have "Turn off my computer", or "Turn of wintel crap" or whatnot...

Cipher13

Maybe that's Microsoft's new slogan that they will copy from Apple, too. "The power to burn toast."

And maybe, just maybe, the masses of apathetic consumers can finally see that Macrohard innovates nothing. It copies everything and then calls it their own. I can't stand that type of corporate behaivor.

JustenBias · Feb 18, 2001, 12:00 AM

I thought taking a look at that image would be fun. It's apparently been slashdotted (MacNNed?).

Anyway.

I really don't need to see it. History repeats itself. Microsoft is a little bit smarter now. So, naturally, they'll keep copying Apple (hey, they got away with it once). Instead of doing it quite so blatantly, they'll be a bit more subtle. You'll see that extra touch of blue. That tad bit of transparency. That extra pinch of duck.

But does it matter? Not really. Because it isn't original.

That's the reason I love my Mac. I can say my computer was cool first. And in sixty years, when we have Mac OS XXX, and Windows XXXP, my computer will still be cooler...

Why? Because it was original. Because it was cool first.

Justen

exa · Feb 18, 2001, 12:17 AM

Does anyone have the original comparison pic, not loading, jpeg is corrupt or something

mindwaves · Feb 18, 2001, 12:21 AM

Originally posted by exa:
Does anyone have the original comparison pic, not loading, jpeg is corrupt or something

What browsers are you using? Use iCab, a non-Microsoft product that works well.

WeEeEeEdAsH · Feb 18, 2001, 12:30 AM

I Used every browser, it isn't the pic, it is the loading time. It seems to time out everytime, Reload does dick **** , so please, someone host it!?!?

Cipher13 · Feb 18, 2001, 01:28 AM

Image is here

EDIT: Its a little big so I just did the link

Cipher13

[This message has been edited by Cipher13 (edited 02-18-2001).]

Feb 18, 2001, 01:33 AM

as for the duck being "stolen" ... http://search.photodisc.com/am/src/p...&st=2&v=1&vc=1

Sjakelien · Feb 18, 2001, 07:14 AM

I believe the duck is from Adobe. I've seen many product presentations of Adobe, and always the duck was there. The duck (called "Ducky") is also included in the sample site that comes with (Golive's) Dynamic Link.
But there is more: If you save an image as a JPEG with the "Save for Web" feature of any recent Adobe application, and open it in a text-editor (for instance BBEdit light) you will notice that in the first line of the header the word "Ducky" is included.
I smell a conspiracy here.....

scottiB · Feb 18, 2001, 10:40 AM

More about the duck... .

While I understand that Ducky is a licensed image, I fail to understand why, after the thousands of licensable images out there, they chose the duck. No robins? cardinals? blue jays? emus? dodos? swans? geese? Or a frickin' pink flamingo!?!

typoon · Feb 18, 2001, 11:33 AM

Originally posted by scottiB:
More about the duck... .

While I understand that Ducky is a licensed image, I fail to understand why, after the thousands of licensable images out there, they chose the duck. No robins? cardinals? blue jays? emus? dodos? swans? geese? Or a frickin' pink flamingo!?!

Don't know if a picture of a Windows User would be a good idea (oops I meant a dodo Bird) Pink flamingo? maybe Other birds would be nice though

typoon · Feb 18, 2001, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by JustenBias:
I thought taking a look at that image would be fun. It's apparently been slashdotted (MacNNed?).

Anyway.

I really don't need to see it. History repeats itself. Microsoft is a little bit smarter now. So, naturally, they'll keep copying Apple (hey, they got away with it once). Instead of doing it quite so blatantly, they'll be a bit more subtle. You'll see that extra touch of blue. That tad bit of transparency. That extra pinch of duck.

But does it matter? Not really. Because it isn't original.

That's the reason I love my Mac. I can say my computer was cool first. And in sixty years, when we have Mac OS XXX, and Windows XXXP, my computer will still be cooler...

Why? Because it was original. Because it was cool first.

Justen

Right on!!!

maxintosh · Feb 18, 2001, 11:36 AM

I agree. The duck might not be original Apple artwork, but it is a visual cue Apple has used with advertising Mac OS 9. Microsoft's using it was obviously an attempt to confuse users. It's so stupid and it's so dirty I find it almost funny.

Seriously, though, what happened is obvious. Apple unveiled an incredible new operating system and Bill Gates wet his pants. Windows is getting stale and there's not tons of praise for ME in the media. Everyone is talking about Mac OS X now, not Windows anymore.

Those images look like they were made up on Photoshop. There are a lot of things they forgot. Items on the taskbar? A clock, maybe? Desktop icons? Programs? Sheesh. No wonder Microsoft "couldn't give any details". What a bunch of crap.

It's almost funny, in a disgusting kind of way..
Maxintosh

The Evener · Feb 18, 2001, 04:18 PM

Maxintosh,

Great post . You definitely highlighted the true motivation behind the demo of Windows XP (not to be confused with OS X) and their new Luna interface (not to be confused with the Aqua interface) -- typical Microsoft ("What do you want to assimilate today?") and vaporware announcements. For a great big coming out, the demo pictures were pretty spartan for showing off the "eXPerience" of their upcoming Windows update.

Sure, those users who point out that ducks or flowers are not Apple trademarks are right, but it sure is bizarre to see those same things pop up in a XP demo. It's not like there is a shortage of substitute birds or vegetation that could have been used in lieu of them. Perhaps there is some marketing report floating around Microsoft that found consumers respond most favorably to rubber duckies and orange flowers?? For me, the placement of the "Recycling Bin" in the right corner of the screen is the strangest Mac-inspired modification I've seen yet. Maybe Gates felt he could do it with a straight face since the trashcan has officially been moved to the right side of the Dock in OS X?

No wonder Gates had to keep Apple around...where else would he get his cues from?

[This message has been edited by The Evener (edited 02-18-2001).]

RealityCheck · Feb 18, 2001, 05:21 PM

Oh give me a break with the Windows XP is biting Mac OS X crap. I never realized Apple invented the letter X. Maybe they stole X, like the GUI, from Xerox. Hell, maybe they even stole X from X-Windows or UNIX or Linux? Like Apple never stole an idea (*cough* Laser Printer *cough*). And for the love of God people, get an eye exam, the Mac OS 9 duck and XP duck are different! They're facing opposite directions. Now Apple ripped off creation using a duck! When will Apple's thievery end?

Remember, for all your criticisms of Microsoft, they built a modern OS in-house. Apple paid $400 million for a glorified BSD distro and a Objective C API that no one touches outside of NeXT geeks.

The only similarites Luna and Aqua share are colors. Oh wait, Apple did invent the color blue too. Damn those Redmond folks. Personally, I detest Windows, and find it an insult when anyone tries to compare that crap to the venerable Mac OS 9 UE.

Cipher13 · Feb 18, 2001, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by RealityCheck:
Oh give me a break with the Windows XP is biting Mac OS X crap. I never realized Apple invented the letter X. Maybe they stole X, like the GUI, from Xerox. Hell, maybe they even stole X from X-Windows or UNIX or Linux? Like Apple never stole an idea (*cough* Laser Printer *cough*). And for the love of God people, get an eye exam, the Mac OS 9 duck and XP duck are different! They're facing opposite directions. Now Apple ripped off creation using a duck! When will Apple's thievery end?

Remember, for all your criticisms of Microsoft, they built a modern OS in-house. Apple paid $400 million for a glorified BSD distro and a Objective C API that no one touches outside of NeXT geeks.

The only similarites Luna and Aqua share are colors. Oh wait, Apple did invent the color blue too. Damn those Redmond folks. Personally, I detest Windows, and find it an insult when anyone tries to compare that crap to the venerable Mac OS 9 UE.

Um... excuse me, but you seem to me missing the entire point.
Apple FIRST used the duck on a log in screen. Now XP does.
Now just think of the names...
MacOS X... Windows XP...
Aqua... Luna...
Don't you see it?
Apple does something, then MS copies it.
If you don't get that, I'm not even going to bother elaborating.

Cipher13

RealityCheck · Feb 18, 2001, 06:43 PM

Cipher, thank you for reading my post. I invite you to do so again, and this time do it slowly. You obviously didn't comprehend it.

Let me reply in the spirit of your post:

StarOS/Alto == Mac OS UI (Apple stole ideas from PARC's technology)

Just think of the names:

Xerox (favorite idea bank), UNIX (basis we used to build an OS, because we couldn't write our own kernel), X-Windows (Mac users will never draw a parallel, because anything not from Cupertino, or Redmond doesn't count), Linux, Sex, Generation X. Hell, why not use X? We can buy the letter from Xerox's going out of business sale.

Apple Records == Apple Computer (Jobs always wanted to be worshiped like Lennon. Why not label your company after the Beatles record co.?)

Chicago == Capone (Since you didn't get my original post, I'll help you here. This piece is in contrast to your Aqua == Luna comment. Back around the times of Windows 95, Microsoft codenamed the project Chicago. Apple, then working on System 7.5, named their project Capone hoping to strike fear in the hearts of Chicago. Microsoft likely named their new GUI project Luna, because the moon controls the tides, a subtle dig in the ever-going OS wars. Not because the OSes look anything alike sans a color.)

Apple and Microsoft are using an image from Adobe. The duck. Blame Adobe for licensing the image to both.)

Another company does something, Apple copies it!

Give it a rest. Everybody borrows from others.

Did you know, GUIs even pre-date Xerox? Windows, icons, and mice go as far back as the mid-60s.

Stop acting like bitter trolls because Apple lost. Revel in the fact you think you have a better OS.

Zhukov · Feb 18, 2001, 07:27 PM

It is worth noting that Apple did pay for the ideas and then substantially changed what Xerox had done.

If people believe the WIntel idea that apple originally stole the GUI then they have failed to get their facts straight before commenting in forums and they end up looking silly.

Norm1985 · Feb 18, 2001, 07:28 PM

RealityCheck = stupid @ss

Apple was already in the works of Macintosh System and Lisa OS well before they visited PARC. They did take some ideas from Alto, but they had premission because Xerox was stupid. At least they had premission. Microsh*t dosen't.

------------------
Mac OS for productivity.
UNIX for stability.
Palm OS for mobility.
Windows for solitaire.

Simon Kornblith · Feb 18, 2001, 08:07 PM

If someone will give me the original image I'll host it on my server...I want to see it too.

Email to [email protected]

Fyre4ce · Feb 18, 2001, 10:20 PM

Um, Apple did not steal anything from Xerox PARC. They bought the GUI, because Xerox was too stupid to realize what they had.

------------------
Fyre4ce

"I need a vacation." - Terminator robot

RealityCheck · Feb 18, 2001, 10:51 PM

And if people bothered fact checking, Microsoft didn't steal GUI elements from Apple. First, Apple licensed Microsoft the Macintosh technologies to help in development of an Office suite. Steve Jobs and Bill Gates sat down to discuss how Microsoft and Apple would work together, a contract was drawn up. In the deal, Microsoft received support from Apple and in term agreed not to produce mouse based, windowing application software for the IBM PC. Much to Steve Jobs dismay, it never barred applying these technologies to operating systems.

Read the following book. It goes into detail on the above subject:

"Gates: How Microsoft�s Mogul Reinvented An Industry and Made Himself The Richest Man In America" written and copyrighted by Stephen Manes and Paul Andrews Published by Doubleday Dell Publishing Group, 1993. New York.

That's why Apple lost the "look and feel" lawsuit. Xerox tried to sue Apple with the Lisa/Macintosh, over "look and feel" issues and also lost.

The only real bone of contention an Apple user can raise is QuickTime. Microsoft was guilty as hell over that, and paid $150 million dollars to Apple, and an undisclosed private sum, to settle it. Microsoft gave Apple, in effect, what Apple gave Xerox 17 years earlier. Ring a bell? Of course not, you'll try to tear my post apart with out of context blurbs, instead of taking time to understand what is actually being said.

Zhukov: If the following statement was a dig at me: "If people believe the Wintel idea that apple originally stole the GUI then they have failed to get their facts straight before commenting in forums and they end up looking silly."

Again, read what I said at the end: "Did you know, GUIs even pre-date Xerox? Windows, icons, and mice go as far back as the mid-60s."

In your over-zealous attempt to flame me, you missed that part. Maybe you don't have the brain power to comprehend that. Point is, it was a typical Windows user argument about the Mac. Mac users are just as bad at making false, blanketed statements.

Here's a further tidbit FYI:

Douglas C. Engelbart invented the mouse, concept of windows, and showcased a primitive GUI in 1968, the Alto had the first true GUI being funded by a major corporation. PARC initiative was to create the, "office of the future."

In the Star, PARC'S final version of the Alto, there were icons representing paper, printers, folders, files, in-out boxes that were all easily accessible with the flick of a wrist, and a click of a button. To access anything, you used a mouse. To find a document, you merely looked for a picture called an icon and clicked on it. Never was there an need for a DOS style command prompt. The Alto/Star machines were the also the first microcomputer to use a laser printer, and Ethernet, a high speed networking protocol.

And, even though Lisa was in development before Apple saw the Alto, take a look at this:

Jobs wanted to carry the Lisa a step forward. Under the advise of Steve's friend Trip Hawkins, Apple's philosophy would change yet again. They would further implement the borrowed ideas of the Xerox PARC-Engelbart model. The Lisa now included windows, icons, and a mouse.

Apple's biggest innovation was QuickDraw and its method for over-lapping windows. Also, the Lisa gave us the venerable trash.

For all the ideas Apple stole, it cost Jobs a mere 100,000 shares. Quite a steal. Steve didn't make another one-sided deal until he got Apple to fork over $400 million for his dying NeXT.

Norm1985, I'll repeat, Since you justify Apple's thievery from Xerox was ok because of stupidity; Apple was as equally dumb as Xerox:

Steve Jobs and Bill Gates sat down to discuss how Microsoft and Apple would work together, a contract was drawn up. In the deal, Microsoft received support from Apple and in term agreed not to produce mouse based, windowing application software for the IBM PC. Much to Steve Jobs dismay, it never barred applying these technologies to operating systems.

For perspective on the truth on Xerox, Lisa, and The Mac, read:

"Insanely Great: The Life and Times of Macintosh, the computer that changed everything" written and copyrighted by Steven Levy. Publisher: Penguin Books, a division of the Penguin Group, 1994. New York

So please, save the Apple rules, Microsoft sucks mentality. CAREFULLY READ what I said. Take a look at the above books. I only paraphrased from my paper on GUI origins, but those books expand on it, without typical AI/MacNN forum propaganda skewing facts.

reader50 · Feb 19, 2001, 12:04 AM

I used a translation page to try and translate the annotations on that picture. Some of the translations didn't come out too well, if anyone can correct them I will edit the post.
---------------------------------
* Topmost Icon *
Auch ein Ikon aus der Sherlock Familie
Also an icon out of the Sherlock family

* Yellow Flower Pictures *
So ein Zuuufall... M$ verwendet auch ne Blume um die neue Oberflache zu demonstrieren.
Such a chance... To demonstrate m$ also ne flower around the new surface.

* File Folders *
Ordner gelb = Win
Ordner blau = Mac
Yellow file = Win
Blue file = Mac

* MacOS X picture caption *
kopiert von Apples MacOS X Webpage
copies of Apple's MacOS X Webpage

* Trash.. uh..., Recycle Bin *
ach, sie mal einer an an welcher Stelle nun der Mulleimer steht!
Alas, it once one at at which place the gauze bucket now stands!

* Magnifying Glass *
Apples Sherlock Ikon von MacOS 9
Apples Sherlock icon of MacOS 9

* The Ducks *
Klar, reiner Zufall
Clearly, pure chance

* Power Buttons *
Ausschalten
Turn off

gorgonzola · Feb 19, 2001, 12:25 AM

Originally posted by RealityCheck:
Oh give me a break with the Windows XP is biting Mac OS X crap. I never realized Apple invented the letter X. Maybe they stole X, like the GUI, from Xerox. Hell, maybe they even stole X from X-Windows or UNIX or Linux? Like Apple never stole an idea (*cough* Laser Printer *cough*). And for the love of God people, get an eye exam, the Mac OS 9 duck and XP duck are different! They're facing opposite directions. Now Apple ripped off creation using a duck! When will Apple's thievery end?

Remember, for all your criticisms of Microsoft, they built a modern OS in-house. Apple paid $400 million for a glorified BSD distro and a Objective C API that no one touches outside of NeXT geeks.

The only similarites Luna and Aqua share are colors. Oh wait, Apple did invent the color blue too. Damn those Redmond folks. Personally, I detest Windows, and find it an insult when anyone tries to compare that crap to the venerable Mac OS 9 UE.

Few responses: The 'X' in Mac OS X is indeed a reference to the Unix core. I don't really know why Microsoft had to come up with Windows Experience just so that they could use the letter X, but fine, this is a reality check.

The duck thing is just a bit of fun. Aqua and Luna do look similar (the vector graphics layer, the antialiasing, the blue taskbar, the integrated apps, etc), and people were just joking around that even a duck is there, just like in Mac OS 9. It's not like people are seriously complaining about copyright infringements.

And let me tell you one thing: Mac OS X is not a goddam BSD distro slapped together with a Obj-C API that "no one touches but NeXT geeks." Why don't you go talk to a bunch of people that are developing in Cocoa -- I bet half of them never used a NeXT machine. The point is that NeXT failed. Not enough people were using their machines. There aren't a whole lot of NeXT geeks out there. Cocoa is an excellent API, as Omni guys will tell you (who are, admittedly, NeXT geeks). It's much faster to write for -- they wrote in support for some of Netscape's suggestions faster than Netscape did for their own browser. You can write a pretty powerful app in a day if you're a good developer.

Yes, Microsoft did create a modern OS in house, and I applaud them for this. On the other hand, what is the point of reinventing the wheel? Why have just stability, multitasking, and protected memory when you can have all of that and allow advanced users almost infinite possibilities with an OS core that already exists. There's a lot of information about Unix, and there are some things that it can do that can't be done in *any* graphical OS easily. (For instance, finding every jpeg file between 13 and 34 days old and putting it into a new folder). Apple's OS does everything Microsoft's does, but it also allows advanced users to use tons of preexisting software (like X11) that's very, very powerful. I can run GIMP on Mac OS X. Can you run it on Windows?

And as for it being a BSD distro -- give me a break. The last thing that Apple wants to make is a Linux clone. You obviously haven't understood -- Linux uses a GUI to improve text-based Unix (this is CLI focused), while Mac OS X uses text-based Unix to improve the GUI. The CLI is really nowhere to be seen in normal operation of the OS, and the only reason is there is to provide a backbone for Aqua. It's really centered around the GUI, and all the BSD stuff does is allow this graphical environment to operate with great stability.

Apple's choice to use Mach/BSD is a good one -- why reinvent the wheel when there are solutions that have been tested time and time again. Plus, now they have instant support from the Linux community, and as John Carmack said, "I love having a command-line available while I'm coding for OpenGL in Aqua."

Your post shows that you have fundamentally misunderstood why Mac OS X has been built like it has.

Go troll somewhere else. You get a reality check.

------------------
the oddball newsletter
------------------
it's only after you lose everything that you're free to do anything

[This message has been edited by gorgonzola (edited 02-18-2001).]

Stegabot · Feb 19, 2001, 12:27 AM

Reality Check,thank you for your post,but unfortunately there are some things in your previous post that are false.One of them is that Apple stole Xerox work regarding the GUI.This is the first thing that every PC users spew that will make every Mac user angry and defensive.The truth is that Xerox invited them to Palos Altos to check out their work in which Steve Jobs and company did.They paid for the visit and if you persist that Apple stole something over there,I'll tell you what they stole,it's not the GUI,it's people(engineers that are working on the GUI project.) that they manage to purloin from Xerox.If you don't believe me,go to ZDnet and check the Mac section,the topic is Apple cracks on Aqua skins and scan thru the talkback until you see the name Troy Allen. Read it,he knows what he is talking about.About Microsoft stealing from Apple, there are instances they blatantly did,one thing that comes to mind is Quicktime in which Microsoft used a third party to get the Quicktime source from Apple and used that to make Windows Media Player.Unfortunately for Microsoft ,they were caught redhanded because if I am not mistaken,they copied it almost code by code.On WindowsXP and MacOSX,they are different in many ways INCLUDING the interface.The thing that many Mac users are up in arms about is that Bill Gates last year had spoken publicly ridiculing Apple's new interface and now they release an interface that in first glance look like Aqua and called it Luna.Normally,I wouldn't care but it would matter to Joe Six Pack when the time comes in upgrading their computers and we all know the FUD that will happen,when both of these OSes comes to be preloaded in their respective machines.If you think that I am one of those rabid Mac fan, I'm not,I recommend PCs to friends who want them and Macs on those who do.I don't shove them my platform preference,I let them decide what they want to use.Also,thanks for the references,I'll buy some of those books when I have enough money to spend.

the frog · Feb 19, 2001, 12:31 AM

Reality Check: Haven't you ever heard the phrase "Don't believe everything you read?"

Just because you've read someone else's term paper on second-hand Apple-Xerox-Microsoft history doesn't make you an authority. The only people who know the truth were there. Were you?

________________
It has been said that every man has his disciples and Judas always is the one to write his biography.

Spheric Harlot · Feb 19, 2001, 01:09 AM

Originally posted by the frog:
Reality Check: Haven't you ever heard the phrase "Don't believe everything you read?"

Just because you've read someone else's term paper on second-hand Apple-Xerox-Microsoft history doesn't make you an authority. The only people who know the truth were there. Were you?

Actually, virtually everything RealityCheck said *is* pretty well-documented.

One point:
The code for QuickDraw may have been actually written at Apple, I'm not sure off-hand. The concept (and the name!), however, were first developed in the late 60's - although by the same man who later went to work for Apple and implemented it for the Mac. So, one could say that it wasn't technically an Apple thing either...

BTW, RealityCheck: Your first post may have been more or less correct in content, but your tone was partly more than inflammatory.

And you must admit that using a rubber duck for the login screen, of all things they could have used, and using a blue color scheme for your first demonstration, and using an "X" in the name, which usually denotes a *nix, which Whistler is *not*, can hardly be a coincidence.

Nor the official introduction of the new GUI just a couple of weeks before OS X, making *that* look like a "me too" product - that's just perverse.

Thanks for balancing the bitching though.

-chris.

apple4ever · Feb 19, 2001, 01:38 AM

The one thing we are forgetting here is while Apple may have taken(or bought) other peoples ideas, there are the first ones to use those ideas in a commercial product for sale to the general public. Before that they were just novelties. examples-mouse, gui, usb, etc

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Pennsylvania Patriot
Mac Lover

david.burney · Feb 19, 2001, 01:41 AM

Another note of interest - if Microsoft and Apple have always had these code names for their interface (as reality check says)...why all of the sudden is Microsoft using their's to market their OS. They've never used one before...but Apple starts touting "Aqua" and so here comes "Luna" of course to confuse the everyday consumer. Confuse em' and they'll stick with what they're familiar with...and that would be windows, correct?

And while I'm sure the X in MacOS X has it's roots in UNIX...let's not forget it's the Roman numeral for 10 as well. A happy coincidence I'm sure, but it sure makes for a great marketing strategy...a little something xtra for those who think different (developers and creative alike).

Everything in this topic seems to revolve mainly around Microsoft and Apple from the specific viewpoint of the developer. Let's not forget about the one thing that Microsoft is good at (or at least their ad agency)...marketing. And I mean from the aspect of their marketing being effective, not trendy or cool. Don't think for a second that this isn't all being planned out from a marketing stand point...Windows XP and MacOS X, Luna and Aqua. Of course, maybe that's all because Bill's feeling a little threatened. But even so, does anyone really have a chance in hell of denting their marketshare? While I think the majority of the name game is for confusion, it just shows how low the guy will sink...

db

tiguyg4 · Feb 19, 2001, 01:50 AM

About the duck. I think the duck was sorta fair game. The image of the duck is part of the free images on the Photoshop 6 cd. As such, I think it was pretty much up for grabs. I am nto saying that i respect microsoft or anything. I think the new start menu is the ugliest thing ever created. I just thinks its pitiful how the only things listed on it are products made by Microsoft. Whats next, a version of windows that locks out software not made by microsoft?

Stegabot · Feb 19, 2001, 01:52 AM

That's true.Microsoft's greatest assest is their PR people.Apple needs to be aggresive with presenting MacOS X and it's advantages to their customers.

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Computers are tools that we use and are the extension of our brains,not the other way around.

Bogartte · Feb 19, 2001, 02:17 AM

Personally, I can't wait for OS X so that I can use the integrated Mail
part and finally dump Outlook Express... then, when the Apple/Microsloth agreement ends, Apple will bring out a totally new and unbelievable Cyberdog to go with it

Feb 19, 2001, 03:59 AM

Well, I wish it really mattered. Facts are I'm afraid that MS will roll on, like it or not. I wish OS X would "hurt" or "kill" MS, but that won't happen. I personally would be glad if Apple could just get back to 10 or 15 % marketshare. I doubt that will happen either though unless they figure out a way to license the OS without killing themselves.