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Green Leaf · Jul 12, 2002, 08:03 AM

Remember back to your childhood. Think about all the fun you had. Think about the brownies, cookies and cake. Think about that warm apple pie on a summer day. Life was good.

2002 and Apple pie is still kickin chocolate cakes butt. We got better computers, and we got better software than those chocolate eating PC punks.

My previous question was what's the difference between the DOS command line and the Apple Terminal. It was a simple question which all of you used to JUMP DOWN MY BACK. I'm just an average user, who came to this forum to seeks some answers. To my dismay, most of the advanced Apple users think they are better than the newbies.

I write this now because it sickens me how defensive and protective you are of OS X. I love Apple and I love OS X. I only had a question. Why do you have to turn that into "he's not a real mac user".

it's just sad

EDIT: I changed the thread title.

[ 07-14-2002, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: Green Leaf ]

Mac Guru · Jul 12, 2002, 08:23 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Sad but true, we are moving backwards <hr /></blockquote>Ummmmmm NO!

Are you so Naive as to even equate DOS and the Terminal as being on the same level!?

Terminal is FAR superior to ANYTHING DOS ever did, this is a large step in the right direction. Obviously you've never used the terminal for extended periods of time. It's THERE because it's a powerful feature and is there so you can use it if you want and COMPLETLY IGNORE it if you don't feel it's needed, hell you could even delete it.

I feel the complete opposite about your stance on CLI. DOS and UNIX are old, but UNIX is FAR more superior, and adding this powerful tool to our OS has added so much to our world. Keep it comin Apple!

msuper69 · Jul 12, 2002, 08:24 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Green Leaf:
I remember when i first became a mac user. No more DOS Mode, no more command lines. That's one of the things that i really liked about the Apple. Things were easier. Yet, after all those years of bragging about no DOS.....Apple implements a terminal.

Sad but true, we are moving backwards<hr /></blockquote>Ha! Finally having a solid UNIX based kernel instead of that patch upon patch upon patch single-tasking crash-prone piece of crap we used to have is hardly going backwards.

Nobody is forcing you to use the command line.

sniffer · Jul 12, 2002, 08:33 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Green Leaf:
I remember when i first became a mac user. No more DOS Mode, no more command lines. That's one of the things that i really liked about the Apple. Things were easier. Yet, after all those years of bragging about no DOS.....Apple implements a terminal.

Sad but true, we are moving backwards<hr /></blockquote>Trying to compare OS X and Win3.11/Dos? You must be joking!

Ohh. A small part of me kind of miss those happy times. *Slap my self* <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
Oki, perhaps not!

Zim · Jul 12, 2002, 08:34 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Green Leaf:
I remember when i first became a mac user. No more DOS Mode, no more command lines. That's one of the things that i really liked about the Apple. Things were easier. Yet, after all those years of bragging about no DOS.....Apple implements a terminal.

Sad but true, we are moving backwards<hr /></blockquote>You have no concept of what a unix shell can do for you.

Its not so much different of having movies vs. books. Both are valid for their own use, but have different interfaces. Make the movie the GUI, the book the command line.

In that context DOS is like a 3rd graders book report. Terminal (and the unix shell(s) it represent(s)) is like the Encyclopedia Britannica in what it can offer you (if you know/want it to).

So don't use it if you don't want to. But the addition makes the Mac much more powerful (and useful) than it ever was.

Mike

sniffer · Jul 12, 2002, 08:41 AM

The dos age kinda of ended after MS introduced DirectX.
After that you only needed dos prompt for real when you had to input format -q c:, and use fdisk. And also when you needed boot discs of course.

SMacTech · Jul 12, 2002, 09:31 AM

While the pre OSX mac did not have something equivalent to terminal, I think terminal is a godsend to finding out exactly what is going on behind the scenes. Don't lament the fact that we now have it. As zim and others have said, 'don't use it if you don't want too'
While not being a CLI geek, I learn something new everyday using terminal.
The latest one being sudo fs_usage to see every running process accessing the filesystem. I had one errant process hitting the FS causing the system to crawl. I could have never known what it was without the terminal program.

[ 07-12-2002, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: SMacTech ]

starman · Jul 12, 2002, 09:32 AM

I can see why there's a PERCEPTION of moving backwards, but it's clear you don't understand the power of UNIX.

Mike

philzilla · Jul 12, 2002, 09:34 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Dr Evil:
ya just... don't... get it, do ya Scott?<hr /></blockquote><img border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" title="" src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" />

chris.p · Jul 12, 2002, 11:46 AM

can someone explain what these great things are? im genuinely inquiring- ive been on x for months, and havent even opened the terminal - in laymans terms please

Ghoser777 · Jul 12, 2002, 12:02 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by chris.p:
can someone explain what these great things are? im genuinely inquiring- ive been on x for months, and havent even opened the terminal - in laymans terms please

<hr /></blockquote>Sure thang. Terminal provides you with a quick way to interface with the computer. Have you ever thought it easier to tell the computer to do something instead of clicking on stuff and using the GUI? The terminal allows you to use a language (it can be hard to figure out at first) so that you can speak to your computer. Want to remove every file on your computer that ends with the extension .exe? You can use terminal to do that. Want to remove all the languages except English? Youc can do that in terminal as well.

There's plenty of other reasons why the terminal is good. There always was a console in Mac OS, but apple kept it private. Now that X is here, and we have a great UNIX underpinning that gives us stability and other goodies, apple has given us the option to communicate with our computers (if we so choose) in a different way.

You don't have to use terminal - it's only there if you want to use it. It's an addition. There's no reason to think it a step back. It's just an option.

F-bacher

Vanquish · Jul 12, 2002, 12:19 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> There always was a console in Mac OS, but apple kept it private <hr /></blockquote>Is that so ???, why the hell didn't they include it in the MacOS ??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" title="" src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" />

King Bob On The Cob · Jul 12, 2002, 12:19 PM

What was the key-combo for the OS 9 debug console again?
I always had to pull myself out of total system lock ups with it. It was really close to being the Restart Key Combo which is how I stumbled on it.

cwasko · Jul 12, 2002, 12:27 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by chris.p:
can someone explain what these great things are? im genuinely inquiring- ive been on x for months, and havent even opened the terminal - in laymans terms please

<hr /></blockquote>In general the terminal gives you the ability to work with massive amounts of information, at the same time. As the previous reply stated, you can perform multiple actions to files that are in nested directories. You can write scripts which perform many different actions - automaticaly and all on a schedule. The list is truly huge with that you can do with a UNIX terminal. Read the MacOS X Unix forum here, and there are some kewl things covered in there.

I've always been a UNIX geek (at heart) and now that OSX is around, I can really play

Going backwards, as the original poster implied, is a complete falacy. No users are forced to use the Terminal and simply by its existance, makes the OS more advanced and flexible.

Ghoser777 · Jul 12, 2002, 12:44 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by King Bob On The Cob:
What was the key-combo for the OS 9 debug console again?
I always had to pull myself out of total system lock ups with it. It was really close to being the Restart Key Combo which is how I stumbled on it.<hr /></blockquote>It's Apple-Restart (I think). I usally type "FINDER G" in it to get out of a lock up (if possible)

Matt Fahrenbacher

Dr Evil · Jul 12, 2002, 01:00 PM

I don't know about you guys, but I ALWAYS had Macsbugs installed in the Systems/OSes till around 9 when it became flaky. You could jump into it and kill a program by hitting Apple-Power Key and see other debugging info. When the System or App crashed, it dumped you right into Macsbugs and a lot of the time, you could kill the app and everything was fine if you had saved.

As for the terminal, I can't live without it. I had always been afraid of DOS and CLI in general, but when I got Public Beta, it started growing on me. I use it for a lot of things that its just faster to type for, like ftp and ssh into remote machines and machines on my network. Its great for removing those pesky files with permission problems and just rm -rf'ing a folder is faster than dragging it to the trash and emptying it.

If you want some fun, at the Mac OS X login prompt, type this into the login: >console
without a password

That will drop you into the Darwin core of OS X WITHOUT Aqua. I love it. Freaks people out. So does taking notes in class on my iBook in VI.

Mac Guru · Jul 12, 2002, 01:05 PM

I've always wanted to try that out but how do you get back out of the console? Is it pretty easy?

Is the >console mode more or less just the terminal? Or is it something different?

Mac Guru

road runner · Jul 12, 2002, 01:17 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Dr Evil:
I don't know about you guys, but I ALWAYS had Macsbugs installed in the Systems/OSes till around 9 when it became flaky. ...... <hr /></blockquote>it was very useful indeed, often you could bring it up if the machine froze by using command-powerOnKey and then escape from the comflicting program or restart etc.

ntsc · Jul 12, 2002, 01:22 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
I've always wanted to try that out but how do you get back out of the console? Is it pretty easy?

Is the >console mode more or less just the terminal? Or is it something different?
<hr /></blockquote>Its very easy, when you are done just type "logout" and the OS will relaunch the WindowManager. If the worst comes to the worst you simple type "Reboot" and this should restart your machine in the normal way.

Green Leaf · Jul 12, 2002, 05:41 PM

I guess i just don't understand teh Terminal language. Apple has prided themselves on delivering to the public software that the average person can figure out.

With the Terminal, i can't figure it out. It's Greek!
Why must it be so complicated?
Why can't the terminal be POWERFUL and easy to use?

[ 07-12-2002, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: Green Leaf ]

cpk0 · Jul 12, 2002, 05:48 PM

Did you not read any of teh above posts? We arent making it any more complicated then you want it to be, so if you don't want it complicated...it's not. many people jsut spent there time explaining why UNIX and the terminal are so great, i'd advise scrolling up a bit to read them. <img border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" title="" src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" />

fmalloy · Jul 12, 2002, 06:01 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mac Guru:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Sad but true, we are moving backwards <hr /></blockquote>Ummmmmm NO!

Are you so Naive as to even equate DOS and the Terminal as being on the same level!?<hr /></blockquote>Look - leave this person alone, and try to explain things nicely, OK?

Much of the poster's assertion is true. We have an OS which was appears to have been previously completely graphical and now is a GUI on top of a command-line based system (UNIX). You open Terminal and it looks just like DOS - just when M$ dumps the command line in XP. You get a kernel panic with text scrolling over your graphics.

To turn the tables on another person who replied, do *YOU* have any concept of how this looks to your average MacOS X user? Looks bad, right?

You're asking if the person is naive - obviously so, and the way to address it is to kindly explain the value of Terminal, which other more considerate people have done.

Sheesh.

JLL · Jul 12, 2002, 06:03 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Green Leaf:
I guess i just don't understand teh Terminal language. Apple has prided themselves on delivering to the public software that the average person can figure out.

With the Terminal, i can't figure it out. It's Greek!
Why must it be so complicated?
Why can't the terminal be POWERFUL and easy to use?<hr /></blockquote>Why can't an F16 be POWERFUL and easy to fly?

alien · Jul 12, 2002, 06:25 PM

At university, I've been using Unix and the command shell since 1994.
At home, I've been using Mac since 1995.

Until OS X, I was very frustrated that I couldn't combine them.

Apple, and those working on the standard Unix tools like X Window etc, seem to be accomplishing this marriage in a very elegant way. It still needs work, but it's getting there.

One nice thing with the Unix shell is that you can send results from one command as input to other commands. This can do incredibly powerful stuff if you have lots of information to go through. OTOH, you don't need to use it if you are an ordinary home user.

The "language" may seem a little difficult at first sight. It's not difficult to learn the basics though. But remember that Apple didn't invent it, they are using standard Unix shell commands. Unix has been worked on by thousands of programmers for decades. Apple can't change things to the easier I'm afraid.

I think there is a Terminal FAQ at <a href="http://www.macosxhints.com" target="_blank">www.macosxhints.com</a> and there are Unix Shell tutorials at <a href="http://www.macdevcenter.com." target="_blank">www.macdevcenter.com.</a>

Or fire up Terminal and type "ls", "ls -al", "man ls" (without the quotes).

Mactoid · Jul 12, 2002, 07:51 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Green Leaf:
With the Terminal, i can't figure it out. It's Greek!
Why must it be so complicated?
Why can't the terminal be POWERFUL and easy to use?<hr /></blockquote>There is no such thing. You can have power, or you can have simplicity. You can not have both. It is the complexity of the terminal that gives it its great power. In a simple interface, it is very easy to do things that the designers intended you to do. But, if you want to do something that they did not have in mind, then you are out of luck.

Unix is surprisingly easy once you "get it", but it does have a learning curve. Once you get used to it however, then you will find that simple things are simple to do and hard things, while maybe not easy, are at least possible.

If you want to take advantage of the unix shell, you must be willing to commit time and effort into learning it. If you don't wish to do so, then you are free to stick with the Finder and all it's limitations.

Green Leaf · Jul 12, 2002, 08:13 PM

you guys talk like you knew all about Unix and it's commands since it was created.

Look, I've never seen it until OS X
I don't understand
I don't know the commands
It's tough and other mac users that i've talked too agree

my point is that Macs weren't suppose to be tough
they were suppose to be as easy

and yes, i realize that i don't have to use the terminal
i was just inquiring about it's purpose

Mactoid · Jul 12, 2002, 08:37 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Green Leaf:
Look, I've never seen it until OS X
I don't understand
I don't know the commands
It's tough and other mac users that i've talked too agree

my point is that Macs weren't suppose to be tough
they were suppose to be as easy

and yes, i realize that i don't have to use the terminal
i was just inquiring about it's purpose<hr /></blockquote>I'm glad you understand that you don't have to use the terminal, however the comment that "my point is that Macs weren't suppose to be tough they were suppose to be as easy" makes it sound like you don't belive it.

Mac's are easy. Assume you remove the shell capabilities from someones computer. If that person never uses the terminal in the first place, did you make the OS easier by removing it? No, of course not (I assume you find that statement agreeable. If not please do explain). The OS is just as easy to the user as it was when the command line was available. This user would see no difference.

However, if the user used the terminal frequently then, then he would miss it greatly if it was removed (i know i would). Therefore, by removing theCLI the OS would be hurt. By having the CLI the OS is not hurt.

What I'm saying is that you can not argue that the CLI makes the Mac OS harder just by being there. You would have to argue that users who did not want to use it were forced to use it if you want to prove that the OS is not simple. Alternativly, you could argue that the GUI parts of the OS are not simple.

ps: missrepresenting the contents of this thread by using an inaccurate "MWNY Revealed!!!" type title benefits no one and goes against this forums stated policy. You should consider changing it back.

[ 07-12-2002, 08:58 PM: Message edited by: Mactoid ]

KidRed · Jul 12, 2002, 08:55 PM

What does this have to do with 'secrets of macworld revealed" or 'inside scoop'?

I hate when people cry wolf for attention....

Adam Betts · Jul 12, 2002, 09:23 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KidRed:
What does this have to do with 'secrets of macworld revealed" or 'inside scoop'?

I hate when people cry wolf for attention....<hr /></blockquote>Looks like Green Leaf is just another troll. Or perhaps Green Leaf is KellyHogan in disguise.

moreno · Jul 12, 2002, 09:31 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />My previous question was what's the difference between the DOS command line and the Apple Terminal. <hr /></blockquote><a href="http://www.disney.com" target="_blank">www.disney.com</a>

Synotic · Jul 12, 2002, 10:35 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Green Leaf:
you guys talk like you knew all about Unix and it's commands since it was created.

Look, I've never seen it until OS X
I don't understand
I don't know the commands
It's tough and other mac users that i've talked too agree

my point is that Macs weren't suppose to be tough
they were suppose to be as easy

and yes, i realize that i don't have to use the terminal
i was just inquiring about it's purpose<hr /></blockquote>Photoshop is harder than AppleWorks... it's obviously a step backwards. I had a friend that actually felt that way until I finally just got him to be quiet and showed him how much more powerful and how great it can be. Sure it's not easy as hell but it's not necessarily hard. I never knew anything about UNIX and it's commands nor have I ever read anything about it.. I just picked it up.. It's really not that hard. Of course it has a learning curve. The Mac OS is supposed to be easy, and it is, for the most part. Would you say that Mathematica is a step backwards since even a 1000 page manual is not good enough for it? Or the Project Builder? They should just completely ditch that, it makes no sense.. what the hell is Objective-C? I'm not going to start a thread and say that C++ is a horrible language because I've never seen it, I don't understand it, I don't know the syntax, and it's agreeably tough. What would I do if I wanted to learn it? Get a book, find someone who knows it, scour the web. If everyone started a thread saying how horrible something is just because they don't get it since they've never (obviously) done any research on it then we'd be flooded with useless threads. I am sure if you've never used a computer in your life and just were told to use Mac OS X for the first time you'd say it was a step backward and books and paper are better... lots of people still think that...

If you really do want to learn this powerful addition (which I seriously doubt), scour the web, get a book, feel free to IM me seeing as you have AOL (:shakes head: you really must not catch on quick...).. my SN is also Synotic.

good luck

SecretAgentX · Jul 13, 2002, 12:49 AM

maybe greenleaf is ahead of his time in how computers should be:

Greenleaf: "Computer"
Computer: "blleeedeeebeep"
Greenleaf: "This room has too much blue in it"
Computer: "specify perameters"
Greenleaf: "Lower blue tones by 25%"
Computer: "done�is this ok?"
Greenleaf: "Yes"
Computer: "blleeedeeebeep"

Or maybe I am just too much of a ST technology fan.

The CLI's, like em or not, have their place like anything else.

::maroma:: · Jul 13, 2002, 01:29 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by SecretAgentX:
maybe greenleaf is ahead of his time in how computers should be:

Greenleaf: "Computer"
Computer: "blleeedeeebeep"
Greenleaf: "This room has too much blue in it"
Computer: "specify perameters"
Greenleaf: "Lower blue tones by 25%"
Computer: "done�is this ok?"
Greenleaf: "Yes"
Computer: "blleeedeeebeep"

Or maybe I am just too much of a ST technology fan.

The CLI's, like em or not, have their place like anything else.<hr /></blockquote>Well said.

Musti · Jul 13, 2002, 01:35 AM

[ 07-13-2002, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: Musti ]

ASIMO · Jul 13, 2002, 02:44 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JLL:
Why can't an F16 be POWERFUL and easy to fly?<hr /></blockquote>Oh, but it is. Don't tell you've never flown one! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Targon · Jul 13, 2002, 03:24 AM

So far im not convinced commands like the following are easy to fathom:

tar -zvxf filename.tar.gz
% date > system-config.txt
% echo "% ifconfig -a" >> system-config.txt
% /sbin/ifconfig -a 2>&1 >> system-config.txt
% cat /etc/resolv.conf
% echo "% netstat -rn" 2>&1 >> system-config.txt
% bpalogin -D -d 3 2>&1 >> system-config.txt

Im still not sure about this entire Unix entity and its suitablity for Apple and its longtime users. Jobs has this vision of a Digital Hub future. Yet he sells Apple a networking/administrative OS that corporations and businesses use to manage networks and users in a workplace environment. Really what they should have bought was a Media OS. Im starting to feel now that BeOS, in hindsight was the best and most suitable OS candidate for Apple at the time and to develop into the Digital Hub vision.

Now it seems we have this Grandpa Munster/FrankeinOS for Unix ppl........ :-(

Mactoid · Jul 13, 2002, 04:35 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Targon:
So far im not convinced commands like the following are easy to fathom:

tar -zvxf filename.tar.gz
% date > system-config.txt
% echo "% ifconfig -a" >> system-config.txt
% /sbin/ifconfig -a 2>&1 >> system-config.txt
% cat /etc/resolv.conf
% echo "% netstat -rn" 2>&1 >> system-config.txt
% bpalogin -D -d 3 2>&1 >> system-config.txt<hr /></blockquote>Hey, they all still make sense to me, and i've been out drinking all night <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

The point is, that you only need to use those if you want to. If you can't make heads or tails out of those commands, it's no real loss. If you can, good for you. Mr. Green Leaf hasn't responded to my previous post yet, and I don't really expect him too. Like I said, those commands, as arcane as they may be don't subtract from the average users OS X experience. But the people who understand them really do appreciate them being available! It's a win-win situation. I don't know why people are complaining just because they don't know how to use the command line, jealousy I suppose.

thanatos · Jul 13, 2002, 05:04 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Targon:
So far im not convinced commands like the following are easy to fathom:

tar -zvxf filename.tar.gz
% date > system-config.txt
% echo "% ifconfig -a" >> system-config.txt
% /sbin/ifconfig -a 2>&1 >> system-config.txt
% cat /etc/resolv.conf
% echo "% netstat -rn" 2>&1 >> system-config.txt
% bpalogin -D -d 3 2>&1 >> system-config.txt

Im still not sure about this entire Unix entity and its suitablity for Apple and its longtime users. Jobs has this vision of a Digital Hub future. Yet he sells Apple a networking/administrative OS that corporations and businesses use to manage networks and users in a workplace environment. Really what they should have bought was a Media OS. Im starting to feel now that BeOS, in hindsight was the best and most suitable OS candidate for Apple at the time and to develop into the Digital Hub vision.

Now it seems we have this Grandpa Munster/FrankeinOS for Unix ppl........ :-(<hr /></blockquote>That means you never used BeOS. BeOS had a Terminal too...

As said before: If you don't like the Terminal, don't use it, nobody is forcing you...

chris.p · Jul 13, 2002, 06:34 AM

Ghoser777, cwasko,

thanks for the insight, i feel i know a bit more now - cheers dudes!

gerbnl · Jul 13, 2002, 07:58 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Green Leaf:
and yes, i realize that i don't have to use the terminal
i was just inquiring about it's purpose<hr /></blockquote>Used to work with VMS, DOS and Mac

I used to love the DOS prompt... ok, you need to learn lots of stuff before one can find it's way around, and when you learned it turned out there's very little usefull stuff one can do with it (esp compared to VMS) But the stuff you CAN do with it screams when compared to most GUI alternatives.

I stalled well into '98 before installing windows. And even then i dropped to the prompt whenever i had to do stuff like copying lots of files. When our company switched to winnt for servers i tried to move heaven and hell to get XLNT installed which would enable me to use VMS's DCL on a winbox (i failed btw)

Its all related to specific tasks,
when i needed to write a letter, or draw a flowchart, or use email i used my Mac: much more convenient.
when i needed to move stuff around or make installers i used the DOS prompt: way faster.

Now there's OS X, both conveniences in one box! There's a new learning curve for me, this time unix's terminal. I will learn to used it proper.

but what is my point again?

Oh! yes:

Just go for one of those really,really slow WinXP/ Intel III boxes you friends complain about! reformat his or her harddrive, install DOS 5 or so and wordperfect 4.2 on it. I bet he never knew how fast his box really could be

coping with all that overhead, that is the purpose (well, it the purpose you could make it)

mr_sonicblue · Jul 13, 2002, 10:43 AM

See here people, Microsoft has unveiled their patented, all wonderful, all powerful, all knowing SOFTWARE FOUNTAIN OF YOUTH! Yessiry folks, make your software look and feel and operate like it did many years ago. No longer will it need to feel the mid-life crisis burdens of a GUI, preemptive multitasking, and stability! Now yours, <a href="http://www.microsoft.com/windows/sfu/default.asp" target="_blank">for just $99!</a>

(Point being, Microsoft has for a while sold a set of tools which adds a real Unix prompt to windows...and it's up to 3.0 now, so obviously someone is using the thing...moving backwards? certainly not, considering the vast amount of new software it gives windows users access to.)

pliny · Jul 13, 2002, 11:04 AM

what's the deal with the phony thread name--i hate when this is done, it is VERY lame

[ 07-13-2002, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: pliny ]

fmalloy · Jul 14, 2002, 01:19 PM

Green Leaf - looks like you're not going to get your answer; there are a lot of self-righteous jerks in here...

I'll explain it as best *I* can:

With X, Apple moved from a GUI-only based system (Mac OS) to a command-line based system (UNIX) creating a very powerful GUI which runs on top of that. It sounds like a step backward and in some ways it is. However, the command-line system its running on top (again, UNIX) is so powerful, stable, flexible, and attractive that it was really the best choice.

Yes, Terminal is just like MS-DOS command line - forget what the snobs tell you. But, since UNIX is so much more superior it's worth it. And to those of us who use UNIX at work every day (myself included) its like getting the best of both worlds - a world-class GUI and a world-class OS.

Apple did what Linux could not - provide a UNIX system anybody's Mom can use. You can use it your whole life without ever using Terminal. Terminal is a window into Geekdom, but you never have to go there if you don't want to. The GUI is driving the car, and Terminal is opening the hood

The Terminal is a great thing for new people to play around with on a rainy day. Just make sure you've got a UNIX book at your side.

So in summary, yes, Mac OS has gone back to a command-line system, but at the same time know its a huge step forward.

Folks - was that so hard?

MacGorilla · Jul 14, 2002, 01:24 PM

The Mac OS Terminal gives you unparalleled power (Yum, power) over your system, giving you amazing flexability. However, you don't need to use the Terminal at all. Mac OS X includes GUI tools for nearly everything and developers have nicely filled in some gaps (check versiontracker for examples).

Unix has long been based on a command line, since it started back in the days before GUIs. Having Unix underpinning nows gives Mac OS X an amazing shot of power and stability.

unfaded · Jul 14, 2002, 02:57 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by fmalloy:
Green Leaf - looks like you're not going to get your answer; there are a lot of self-righteous jerks in here...

I'll explain it as best *I* can:

With X, Apple moved from a GUI-only based system (Mac OS) to a command-line based system (UNIX) creating a very powerful GUI which runs on top of that. It sounds like a step backward and in some ways it is. However, the command-line system its running on top (again, UNIX) is so powerful, stable, flexible, and attractive that it was really the best choice.

Yes, Terminal is just like MS-DOS command line - forget what the snobs tell you. But, since UNIX is so much more superior it's worth it. And to those of us who use UNIX at work every day (myself included) its like getting the best of both worlds - a world-class GUI and a world-class OS.

Apple did what Linux could not - provide a UNIX system anybody's Mom can use. You can use it your whole life without ever using Terminal. Terminal is a window into Geekdom, but you never have to go there if you don't want to. The GUI is driving the car, and Terminal is opening the hood

The Terminal is a great thing for new people to play around with on a rainy day. Just make sure you've got a UNIX book at your side.

So in summary, yes, Mac OS has gone back to a command-line system, but at the same time know its a huge step forward.

Folks - was that so hard?<hr /></blockquote>Well said :o)

I know a couple of Terminal commands, but I'm no expert by ANY means. If I truly cared to customise everything to my every whim, I would learn the terminal like the back of my hand.

But, I don't care that much, and it doesn't affect my MacOS X experience one damn bit, and it never will if I don't want it to. I can download porn with out the terminal, thank you. j/k ;o)

mmm...iPorn...

Millennium · Jul 14, 2002, 03:20 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Targon:
So far im not convinced commands like the following are easy to fathom:

tar -zvxf filename.tar.gz
% date > system-config.txt
% echo "% ifconfig -a" >> system-config.txt
% /sbin/ifconfig -a 2>&1 >> system-config.txt
% cat /etc/resolv.conf
% echo "% netstat -rn" 2>&1 >> system-config.txt
% bpalogin -D -d 3 2>&1 >> system-config.txt<hr /></blockquote>You use BeOS as an example of a "better way". Evidently you've never used BeOS, which not only had a Terminal, but one which was based very heavily off of Unix (even its shell was very similar to the one OSX uses). I don't have a machine with BeOS in front of me, but at least half of the commands you typed in will work there too. And considering that it's a Unix shell, even if some of the other specific commands you listed wouldn't work (due to the fact that it's not quite Unix), everything runs basically the same way.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Really what they should have bought was a Media OS.<hr /></blockquote>"Media OS" isn't even a real term; it's a marketing phrase invented by Be back in the days of PR2, if I'm not mistaken (I ran BeOS for some time a few years back). No other program or firm has ever used that term.

All it meant was that the OS was made for running multimedia applications. And so is OSX. It may have a Unix kernel underneath, but what the heck does that matter?

Methinks I spy a BeOS zealot....
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Now it seems we have this Grandpa Munster/FrankeinOS for Unix ppl........ :-(<hr /></blockquote>When have you ever had to use the Terminal for anything, except perhaps to fix that annoying locked-files-in-the-Trash bug?

I'll tell you: zero. Aside from the occasional bug, anything you wanted to do with OSX you could have done via the GUI. The Terminal, as with BeOS, is only there for people who want ti use it.

So get over your inane anti-Unix prejudice, already.

neilw · Jul 14, 2002, 05:31 PM

For me the problem with DOS was not that it was a CLI, but that it was an appallingly bad one. There is a class of Mac user that has always wished for a built-in CLI in the system, just not something as god-awful as DOS.

Typical graphical interfaces are fine for everyday needs, but a CLI gives you a level of control and flexibility that you just don't get any other way. GUIs typically allow you to do a set of things that the designer thought were most useful. The CLI lets you do basically anything. The price you pay for that power is needing to learn an arcane language, and yes, it is arcane.

With all that said, I've been using UNIX for 20 years or so, and I hardly ever use Terminal on my PowerBook for much other than "top". OSX's grandest success is in eliminating the need to go UNIX hacking until you want to. It is another tool at your disposal, and in this case one that has been contributed to by a zillion programmers over 30-odd years. There's way more useful functionality there than will ever get ported to GUI-based apps.

Don't learn it if you don't want to, but be glad it's there for those who need it.

dfiler · Jul 15, 2002, 01:15 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mac Guru:
I've always wanted to try that out but how do you get back out of the console? Is it pretty easy?

Is the >console mode more or less just the terminal? Or is it something different?

Mac Guru<hr /></blockquote>This post got me chuckling. Mac Guru, I think the Guru police are about to show up and take your guru status away. ;-)

For someone asking the question in this manner, the distinctions will be trivial. Sorry, I think that came off a bit condescending. After retyping the sentence three times, I couldn't figure out a better way to say it. I don't want OS X early adopters to sound like unix elitists though� we {should} understand that different users have different levels of need and desire for the �terminal�.

To unix newbies here are some factoids that may (or may not) be of use:

The word �terminal� is being used quite loosely in this discussion. Terminal actually refers to a program in the same sense that Internet Explorer refers to a program. The terminal program does relatively little, acting as the middle-man between you and the operating system. To be even more picky, the terminal is actually a terminal emulation program. There are many terminals and terminal emulation programs that can be used to interact with OS X. The word �shell� should probably be substituted for �terminal� in most of these posts. Shells are what interpret the commands that you type.

Anyone else want to chime in and improve my alleged clarification? I�m sure that there are important adjectives that can be added to the word �shell��

Adam Betts · Jul 15, 2002, 01:33 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by fmalloy:
Green Leaf - looks like you're not going to get your answer; there are a lot of self-righteous jerks in here...<hr /></blockquote>If you looked at the old title of this thread, you'll understand why people wouldn't want to answer.

I remember it was something like "MACWORLD EXPO: SECRET REVEALED!"

This is a very LAME way to get attention.

Oneota · Jul 15, 2002, 02:02 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Green Leaf:

My previous question was what's the difference between the DOS command line and the Apple Terminal. It was a simple question which all of you used to JUMP DOWN MY BACK. I'm just an average user, who came to this forum to seeks some answers. To my dismay, most of the advanced Apple users think they are better than the newbies.
<hr /></blockquote>As I read it, your original post wasn't a question at all. It was a flamebait. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but from looking at this text:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I remember when i first became a mac user. No more DOS Mode, no more command lines. That's one of the things that i really liked about the Apple. Things were easier. Yet, after all those years of bragging about no DOS.....Apple implements a terminal.

Sad but true, we are moving backwards <hr /></blockquote>...I don't really see a question in there. See, a question, by definition, has a little thing called a "Question Mark" at the end of it. It is a statement seeking an answer. Your original post had either a period, or no punctuation at all, and did not seek information, but rather was a (mis-)informative statement.

Sorry, but I ain't buying the whole "I just asked a question and now everyone hates me" thing.