[OldManMac]

After Bush's chest thumping, proclaiming that we will defeat the terrorists in Iraq, and we will deliver democracy to the Iraqi people, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld is now laying the groundwork for an exit strategy in Iraq, as he sends a clear message to the people that we are getting tired of getting our clocks cleaned, and that the status of their country does depend on them after all. It looks as if we're going to desert them in the near future, just like we did Afghanistan, telling them that they need to take care of themselves, and then just leaving the country to its own devices.

http://apnews.excite.com/article/200...D877339O0.html

Rumsfeld Says Iraqis Must Stop Insurgents

Dec 25, 10:36 PM (ET)

By ROBERT BURNS

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - In his Christmas eve encounters with U.S. military commanders and hundreds of their troops, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld heard - and said - little about armor or troop shortages, issues that have made him a political target in Washington among both Democrats and Republicans.

His main message over a four-city tour was quite different: that the insurgency has staying power and a seemingly endless supply of weapons, and the time has come for ordinary Iraqis to realize that they - not the Americans - will ultimately decide who prevails in this conflict.

During a visit to U.S. troops in Kuwait earlier this month, Rumsfeld was challenged by several soldiers on issues like lack of vehicle armor, pay and troop deployments. Some saw his responses as callous, triggering calls by some in Congress for him to resign, just days after President Bush had decided he wanted the 72-year-old Rumsfeld to stay for a second term at the Pentagon.

On his Iraq trip, Rumsfeld faced no such challenges. Instead, he emphasized his personal support and understanding of the sacrifices troops make, especially around the holidays.

"You face a determined and vicious enemy," Rumsfeld said in dinner remarks Friday to hundreds of 1st Cavalary Division soldiers at a post near the Baghdad International Airport, where they feasted on a holiday meal of prime rib, fried shrimp and chicken, mashed potatoes and all the fixings.

Underscoring Rumsfeld's point, just hours after he left, the death toll grew as a suicide bomber blew up a gas tanker in the upscale Mansour district of Baghdad, home to many foreign missions as well as top Iraqi government officials.

During his visit, Rumsfeld said it would be unrealistic to predict that the level of violence will recede once the Jan. 30 elections are held. In the end, he said, it will be a "uniquely Iraqi solution," not American.

Earlier in Fallujah, the restive city that had been the insurgents' main haven until U.S. forces overran it last month - and are still rooting out holdout fighters - Rumsfeld used a simple analogy to explain his view that the time is arriving for Iraqis to take responsibility for their own security.

Faced with a chore like digging a ditch, a typical American, he said, will grab a shovel and start digging. In Iraq now, however, the task is to step aside and get the Iraqis to dig their own ditches.

He warned against allowing the Iraqis to become too dependent on the U.S. military. More independence is what's needed, he said.

"That's the only way," Rumsfeld said during a meeting with top U.S. commanders in Tikrit, at the northern tip of the so-called Sunni Triangle that had been deposed President Saddam Hussein's bedrock of support. He called it the key to eventually getting the 151,000 U.S. troops out of Iraq.

In that meeting, Lt. Gen. Thomas Metz, the senior ground commander in Iraq, made a similar point. He said Maj. Gen. John Batiste, whose 1st Infantry Division essentially rules north-central and northeastern Iraq, and who was sitting in the same meeting, must stop thinking of that as his area of responsibility and instead get local Iraqi commanders to take it as their own.

Batiste agreed and said that within six months he expects an Iraqi National Guard division headquarters, with 15 battalions of guardsmen, to be ready to take control of his area. There already are 11 battalions in place, he said.

"We're on the verge of something great here," Batiste said.

In his session with Metz and Batiste, Rumsfeld pointedly noted that some in Washington keep saying that American commanders in Iraq feel they need more troops, or that they're not getting the resources they need. He asked Metz: What has Batiste told you he needs that he has not received?

Metz made no mention of troop levels, but he said Batiste could use more specialized drone aircraft used for surveillance and reconnaissance, and that he needs more linguists because many of them have succumbed to the tactics of intimidation used by insurgents.

Batiste described intimidation as a highly effective tool of the insurgents, and he estimated that 90 percent of the insurgent violence is directed by former loyalists to Saddam Hussein. He said death threats are delivered to the mail boxes of Iraqis who cooperate with the Americans or are otherwise circulated in ways that make it difficult to maintain Iraqi loyalty in the face of threats to their families. He showed Rumsfeld a photograph of what he called a hand-written death threat that was among weapons and other materials recovered during a raid Thursday night.

[demograph68]

I'm worried... that's all I have to say.

[ambush]

[demograph68]

She's hawt!

[shmerek]

I'd hit it

[Millennium]

Originally posted by KarlG:
It looks as if we're going to desert them in the near future, just like we did Afghanistan, telling them that they need to take care of themselves, and then just leaving the country to its own devices.

Forgive me, but I fail to see how this article says anything of the sort.

The elections are occurring on a schedule laid out long ago. I fail to see how anything is being changed. Nor, frankly, do I see how we're "getting our clocks cleaned". But then, this isn't about that, is it? The fact is that when the Iraqis finally have their own elected government, it will in fact be their responsibility to start eliminating the insurgency. Why wouldn't it be? Is it not the responsibility of any nation to ensure its people's safety; indeed, if not any nation's first responsibility to its own people?

Or would you prefer that Iraq never regain its independence?

[Face Ache]

Welcome, Mr Rumsfeld, to Fantasy Island!

[ambush]

FACE ACHE IS IN DA HOUZE

[MacGorilla]

So we charged in, killed and destroyed, fueling an insurgency we can't control now we're leaving saying, "Good luck".

No wonder people all over the world love the USA.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally posted by Millennium:
The elections are occurring on a schedule laid out long ago. I fail to see how anything is being changed.

Exactly. Sometimes it�s simply breathtaking how the gloom and doom crowd proves itself simply INCAPABLE of keeping up with anything.

We�ve been hearing about the scheduled elections and the planned power change-over for MONTHS on end now. Everyone but the �gloom and doom whine about literally EVERYTHING� crowd that is.

[MacGorilla]

Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
Exactly. Sometimes it�s simply breathtaking how the gloom and doom crowd proves itself simply INCAPABLE of keeping up with anything.

We�ve been hearing about the scheduled elections and the planned power change-over for MONTHS on end now. Everyone but the �gloom and doom whine about literally EVERYTHING� crowd that is.

There is a difference between gloom and doom and plain realism.

No one wants to see Iraq crumble into complete chaos and anarchy. No one wants to see elections fail or fall victim to violence. But some things to keep in mind:

1. In the current climate of Iraq, the elections will be difficult to carry out nation wide, with some areas controlled by the insurgents. Its very important that if you are going to have elections, they must include everyone or you are just asking for more trouble.

2. Even successful elections wont cure the problem. The insurgency has its roots in other causes and elections wont solve the problem.

I would pospone elections until the country is more stable and secure. I don't know if thats possible but thats my take.

[eklipse]

I can't wait to see who the officially-elected-Iraqi-scapegoat is going to be.

[olePigeon]

His main message over a four-city tour was quite different: that the insurgency has staying power and a seemingly endless supply of weapons, and the time has come for ordinary Iraqis to realize that they - not the Americans - will ultimately decide who prevails in this conflict.

God damn I'm good.

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...hreadid=231546

[Krusty]

Oooh ... time to whip out this classic again

[budster101]

Originally posted by Krusty:
Oooh ... time to whip out this classic again

What a thought provoking picture.

[Sven G]

FYI, here's an interesting and very recent interview with Noam Chomsky: I especially like his calm and balanced, reasoned way of telling "untellable" truths. (Of course, as usual, for many people they are just unthinkable things, � la "conspiracy theories".)

Oil? Surely a very important component of why the war was begun - not the only one, anyway.

Carl Von Clausewitz (1780-1831), a brilliant Prussian military of some time ago, once said: "War is the continuation of politics by other means." Exactly what is happening today, sadly, yet another time...

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by budster101:
What a thought provoking picture.

No, just provoking, there's little actual thought in it.

[budster101]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
No, just provoking, there's little actual thought in it.

I never said what thoughts it provoked in me, but I'm only happy to give you a clue as a proud American.

The photo can be easily manipulated to show how other countries do not like the idea of a Democracy in the Middle East. A few have been named over and over again, only to be dismissed by those whose hatred for the USA has clouded their minds so they cannot see the truth.

France, Germany, Russia, and China would really like for Iraq to fail at becoming a Democratic Nation, not to mention Iran who is only happy to send kill squads into Iraq.

Do they realize the USA is really at war with Iran, and has been for some time? Iraq is the battle ground, just like France was in WWII when we fought the Germans to free them from the Nazi occupation.

The older I get, the more clearly I can see, my eyes aren't as strong but I'm much wiser so that makes up the difference.

[MacGorilla]

I wouldn't be surprised with Iran was fueling the insurgency. I wouldn't be surprised if Chalabi has a hand in it these days.

[Curios Meerkat]

Originally posted by MacGorilla:
I wouldn't be surprised with Iran was fueling the insurgency. I wouldn't be surprised if Chalabi has a hand in it these days.

Iran will gain from a "democratic", shiite-dominated Iraq. Don't forget Sistani is iranian. Chalabi is a whore, he switched sides as soon as the US started losing.

There's only one country in the ME that has to gain from instability in Iraq, and that country is not Iran.