[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

I am not talking about making the Finder non-brushed metal. Or nicer folder icons. Beyond all traditional stuff.

I am talking about a whole new way to get around your computer. VISTA is stealing Apples look and the second that happens Apple tends to leapfrog them by 10 years.

This came to me after watching the demo's of Apples new Aperture app. It makes great use of core image and expose. The magnifier is also incredible. The whole finder should be based on Expose and Core image.

Currently the Finder is the only difficult part users have a problem with in my experience. They can't understand or handle the fact that application windows remain viewable over the files they are looking for on the desktop.

With Spotlight finding things are easier than ever and makes the Finder more useless.

The way I think things should work is when you click on the finder the entire thing comes forward like a full screen app. Icons could be slid around on the screen as smoothy as moving icons around in the dock. The Finder should be a single window with perhaps a drawer or tray on the side of the screen. This would be used to have pop-up like windows that slide in or out to shuffle files around. Spotlight should be more prominent at the top of this single window.

The idea's are limitless but I think it is due time that everything is gutted and started from scratch. You can see Steve TRIED to do this in early OSX builds by making the Finder called "desktop", no files on the desktop and a single window mode button.

What radical idea's can you see Apple coming up with? (don't say 3D for the sake of saying 3D).

[rickey939]

I don't think much will change in terms of the Finder's UI in v10.5 at all.

[Randman]

I think iTunes will replace every app, including the Finder.

[tooki]

Well, I love Looking Glass's use of 3D as a way to minimize or windowshade applications, but that's really beside the point.

Frankly, I just want the OS 9 Finder re-coded in Cocoa. I do not in the slightest agree that Spotlight negates the need for a Finder -- search is not a substitute for organization. People understood the Classic Finder because what you saw corresponded exactly to what is on the disk. Mac OS X's and Windows' increasing levels of abstraction are a really bad thing for usability.

Anyway, some dynamic grouping à la Aperture would rock, though, as well as its level of responsiveness.

tooki

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally Posted by tooki

I do not in the slightest agree that Spotlight negates the need for a Findertooki

In its current form, no. It is slow and the results are displayed well.

I DO think it can take over for 80% or rummaging.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

In its current form, no. It is slow and the results are displayed well.

I DO think it can take over for 80% or rummaging.

Agreed...the Finder is on it's way to the grave. I feel sorry for those that can't see that.

The transition will be gradual though...Apple won't simply pull the Finder out. It'll be around for years...but a new type of Spotlight-enabled browsing tool will take over with the Finder as a fallback app that you can launch if needed.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by tooki

Well, I love Looking Glass's use of 3D as a way to minimize or windowshade applications, but that's really beside the point.

Frankly, I just want the OS 9 Finder re-coded in Cocoa. I do not in the slightest agree that Spotlight negates the need for a Finder -- search is not a substitute for organization. People understood the Classic Finder because what you saw corresponded exactly to what is on the disk. Mac OS X's and Windows' increasing levels of abstraction are a really bad thing for usability.

Anyway, some dynamic grouping à la Aperture would rock, though, as well as its level of responsiveness.

tooki

100% agreed. GMTA and all that

cheers

W-Y

[mdc]

are the people who are complaining or can't fathom the idea that windows can sit on top of their icons, windows users or ex-windows users?

i find that windows users don't work well with multiple windows and love their maximize button.
if mac os ever goes this way, i am not going to be happy.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by mdc

are the people who are complaining or can't fathom the idea that windows can sit on top of their icons, windows users or ex-windows users?

i find that windows users don't work well with multiple windows and love their maximize button.
if mac os ever goes this way, i am not going to be happy.

Another GMTA! 100% agreed.

cheers

W-Y

[Big Mac]

I think Apple may be frightened of the hue and cry that would come from us, its core user base, if it deviated from the current Finder paradigm. It has been fairly apparent that, other than the Dock, the Finder is the system component that gets altered the least from release to release. It would require some serious of the box thinking to push through a divergent mode of file management.

[osxrules]

I think the OS X Finder is better than the OS 9 one. I don't see how people can say the old Finder was better. It didn't have column view, which IMO is one of the most useful parts of the Finder. Not to mention the list of aliases down the side.

I would prefer the Finder to just recognise permissions properly, come with tabs and if it can't read data from somewhere due to an IO error to just copy the bits it can read instead of deleting the file.

Themes that aren't hacks wouldn't go amiss either. Some people get tired of looking at the same freakin' interface for 5 years.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

I wish there was a way to store often used windows but NOT in the dock. If windows on the desktop could turn into small icon like ones with Expose and enlarge when clicked, drop some stuff in, and then shrinks again it would be great.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

I wish there was a way to store often used windows but NOT in the dock. If windows on the desktop could turn into small icon like ones with Expose and enlarge when clicked, drop some stuff in, and then shrinks again it would be great.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

The way I think things should work is when you click on the finder the entire thing comes forward like a full screen app. Icons could be slid around on the screen as smoothy as moving icons around in the dock. The Finder should be a single window with perhaps a drawer or tray on the side of the screen. This would be used to have pop-up like windows that slide in or out to shuffle files around. Spotlight should be more prominent at the top of this single window..

How would this increase usability in any way? This sounds like a usability hit for people with complex file organization.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

I wish there was a way to store often used windows but NOT in the dock. If windows on the desktop could turn into small icon like ones with Expose and enlarge when clicked, drop some stuff in, and then shrinks again it would be great.

I think you're asking for OS 9 Finder style tabs.

[tooki]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

Agreed...the Finder is on it's way to the grave. I feel sorry for those that can't see that.

The transition will be gradual though...Apple won't simply pull the Finder out. It'll be around for years...but a new type of Spotlight-enabled browsing tool will take over with the Finder as a fallback app that you can launch if needed.

Anyone who thinks a search (no matter how good) can replace a file navigator is delusional. Visualizing what is on a disk or in a folder is a critical function. Search can't do that.

You have to understand: search and navigation are complementary technologies, not competitive ones. Neither one is a substitute for the other.

Spotlight is a great search tool, I use it a lot. But if I already know where something is, I want to navigate to it. Searches don't work well for this, because the file will be found both in the original location as well as the backup folders. Sure, I could do a custom search to search only one place, but in less time, I could just have navigated to what I need.

Of course, a proper Finder makes navigation easy. The current one often makes mistakes that slow me down.

tooki

[tooki]

P.S. And yes, I realize that Steve Jobs claimed that search will replace the Finder. Not the first time he's been delusional...

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

I think you're asking for OS 9 Finder style tabs.

I am indeed.

[chabig]

Funny that MacosXrumors has a story on this very topic today...

http://www.macosxrumors.com/articles...-on-spotlight/

Chris

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by tooki

Anyone who thinks a search (no matter how good) can replace a file navigator is delusional. Visualizing what is on a disk or in a folder is a critical function. Search can't do that.

You have to understand: search and navigation are complementary technologies, not competitive ones. Neither one is a substitute for the other.

Spotlight is a great search tool, I use it a lot. But if I already know where something is, I want to navigate to it. Searches don't work well for this, because the file will be found both in the original location as well as the backup folders. Sure, I could do a custom search to search only one place, but in less time, I could just have navigated to what I need.

Of course, a proper Finder makes navigation easy. The current one often makes mistakes that slow me down.

tooki

I don't think we're talking about the same thing.

Spotlight isn't just about search...it's about organization and navigation also.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by chabig

Funny that MacosXrumors has a story on this very topic today...

http://www.macosxrumors.com/articles...-on-spotlight/

Chris

Finder + more Spotlight = Duh.

I'm sure the good folks at macosxrumors don't know crap and are just guessing but they're guessing in the right direction...anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding him/herself.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally Posted by chabig

Funny that MacosXrumors has a story on this very topic today...

http://www.macosxrumors.com/articles...-on-spotlight/

Chris

Cool, I beat him by an hour.

[production_coordinator]

I just hope and pray they bring back extensions that can conflict with hardware and applications and bring down my entire computer. I miss having a coffee break every hour or so.

[MindFad]

Wow, Aperture's interface is really impressive. I really hope it is a sign of what's to come with Leopard. but Apple has seemed pretty bent on keeping the Pro apps' interfaces separate from everything else, though I always thought that was wrong. I was hoping the new plastic interface (Mail.app) would tie everything together—maybe in Leopard. That would be sweet; I really think it looks great. (And brushed Finder needs to go. Textures with resolution independence are no good.)

[khufuu]

Originally Posted by tooki

Anyone who thinks a search (no matter how good) can replace a file navigator is delusional. Visualizing what is on a disk or in a folder is a critical function. Search can't do that.

You have to understand: search and navigation are complementary technologies, not competitive ones. Neither one is a substitute for the other.

Spotlight is a great search tool, I use it a lot. But if I already know where something is, I want to navigate to it. Searches don't work well for this, because the file will be found both in the original location as well as the backup folders. Sure, I could do a custom search to search only one place, but in less time, I could just have navigated to what I need.

Of course, a proper Finder makes navigation easy. The current one often makes mistakes that slow me down.

tooki

Just thinking out loud here....

The only reason we have directories is to find files. I think that Spotlight could be the new paradigm (or the beginning of one anyway).

Each time you do a search it has to have some sort of 'context'. These could be 'active' files, 'backup' files, or 'archive' files. User defined contexts could be implemented over and above the standard ones. Backup files could be those that you've designated as historical backups. The archive files could be those ones which you've archived out to tape/device and removed from the system (the meta-data on them could remain behind for you to determine which tape/device you've put them on so that you could efficiently restore them.)

Spotlight could default to user to only active files. The user could, of course, override the default context to get different results as required.

I think Spotlight might just be the beginning of the new meta-data file system that people have been waiting for.

Tooki... what is so essential about visually seeing what's on disk or in a folder? What additional information are you getting that a good metadata search wouldn't give you?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

Will Apple BLOW OUR MINDS with 10.5's interface?

Only if Steve says "this will blow your minds"

[mhuie]

Originally Posted by khufuu

Just thinking out loud here....

The only reason we have directories is to find files. I think that Spotlight could be the new paradigm (or the beginning of one anyway).

Each time you do a search it has to have some sort of 'context'. These could be 'active' files, 'backup' files, or 'archive' files. User defined contexts could be implemented over and above the standard ones. Backup files could be those that you've designated as historical backups. The archive files could be those ones which you've archived out to tape/device and removed from the system (the meta-data on them could remain behind for you to determine which tape/device you've put them on so that you could efficiently restore them.)

Spotlight could default to user to only active files. The user could, of course, override the default context to get different results as required.

I think Spotlight might just be the beginning of the new meta-data file system that people have been waiting for.

Tooki... what is so essential about visually seeing what's on disk or in a folder? What additional information are you getting that a good metadata search wouldn't give you?

Every person has their own method of organization. The computer can "try" to read your mind, but all it can do is *help* you find things, it's not going to replace the way you retrieve your data. I don't want the computer to show me what it thinks I want, I want things where I put them.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

The desktop metaphor is way way way to dated. Think of all the computers you see with cluttered as hell desktops, downloading a new file or inserting a CD makes you shuffle though all that mess to find what you are looking for. God help you if you don't know the file name of the CD or what you just downloaded.

I strongly believe things would be easier if there was a tray on the right hand side that only showed drives and inserted media. An area below that could have "Smart searches" or alies's to folders. This tray would not float above all apps, just based in the finder. This sounds much like iTunes.

I remember this was the original plan for Rhapsody.

[khufuu]

Originally Posted by mhuie

Every person has their own method of organization. The computer can "try" to read your mind, but all it can do is *help* you find things, it's not going to replace the way you retrieve your data. I don't want the computer to show me what it thinks I want, I want things where I put them.

Um. That's the point. You wouldn't have to remember WHERE you put anything. It wouldn't matter if your a 'good' organizer or not. Instead of putting the file in a specific place you would tag the file with relevant information about what's in the file.

e.g.: If you were a vet and had several pictures of various dogs, you'd probably put the breed of the dog into your metadata instead of creating a new folder and putting the file within that folder. If you were an artist, that same picture might be coded by color. If that was your friend's dog it would be coded under your friend's name.

The point is that you don't really care WHERE the file is you actually care about what's in the file.

This is all really just hypothetical anyway but it's still interesting to think about what might be coming down the pipe.

[Ji Eun]

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

I wish there was a way to store often used windows but NOT in the dock. If windows on the desktop could turn into small icon like ones with Expose and enlarge when clicked, drop some stuff in, and then shrinks again it would be great.

windowshadex by unsanity has a "minimize in place" feature that does precisely this *minus* drag and drop capability a-la expose.

[CaptainHaddock]

There will always be a need for people to visually navigate to files and folders. The Finder - i.e., an app dedicated to visual and hierarchical file navigation on OS X - is never going away, even if it uses more Spotlight technology in the future (like smart folders) to make navigation more flexible.

Things I bet Leopard will bring:
1. Full Quartz 2D Extreme for an even faster GPU-driven desktop.
2. Resolution-independent interface elements.
3. More robust and flexible Spotlight.
4. Leaner code that makes Cocoa apps even faster.
5. Under-the-hood CoreImage and CoreAudio enhancements that make Mac-centric multimedia development a cinch.

Maybe we'll also get some GUI enhancements, like that nice dark look used in Aperture.

[Maflynn]

Perhaps I'm in the minority but 10.5 is so far off in the future, I'm not even thinking about it. being so much time between now and the release any GUI design is bound to be changed before we see the final product.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by mhuie

Every person has their own method of organization. The computer can "try" to read your mind, but all it can do is *help* you find things, it's not going to replace the way you retrieve your data. I don't want the computer to show me what it thinks I want, I want things where I put them.

The thing is, the computer isn't 'trying' or 'guessing' anything. It's not 'reading your mind' either. It does what you ask him to do.

If you're looking for Rock music, it'll find all your Rock music. If you're looking for Beatles music, it'll find all your Beatles music. If you're looking for pictures of your family, it'll find pictures of your family. If you're looking for e-mails from "JimmyJoeJimBob" that were sent in the last 7 days, it'll find e-mails from JimmyJoeJimBob sent in the last 7 days. If you're looking for .dmg files downloaded last month, it'll find .dmg files downloaded last month. If you're looking for a contact who's phone number is 555-2020, it'll find the contact number with phone number 555-2020.

If you didn't ask to find the right thing, that's your problem...just like it's your problem if you opened the wrong folder and you're not finding the file you're looking for. The computer won't guess what folder you want to open and open it for you.

There's no indication that storing files in static folders is going the way of the dodo. Afterall, iTunes 5 has added folders for static organization...iPhoto has 'em, Aperture has 'em, Safari has 'em.

What we're looking at is a more powerful way of organizing and retreiving files. Storing *everything* in static folders makes little sense nowadays. It makes finding files difficult because there's only one way to get to them: knowing the path to the file.

"But navigation and searching are complementary"...absolutely.

But the dominant browsing method should now be metadata searching with manual navigation as a fallback. Not the other way around.

[OreoCookie]

Check out macosxrumors.com. They say a few things on what to expect for Leopard. Enjoy.

[mpancha]

I still feel the old metaphor desktop suits the computer perfectly well. Then again, my system is organized similarly to my desktop. My hard drive is just like my filing cabinet, everything's labeled, everything is exactly where I put it and expect it to be. My desktop only has the files I am working on, or will be working on that day, and nothing more. Nice and simple.

Personally I have no problems with the current finder, but I see room for great imporvement. I agree with an iTunes like interface, with smart folders in a bar of their own, a media tray. With the coming of aperture, we see the possibility of auto-grouping, stacking, so on, and I'd love to see that implemented in the finder.

The more I can get my computer to work just like my desk, the better for me.

[SMacTech]

Originally Posted by tooki

Anyone who thinks a search (no matter how good) can replace a file navigator is delusional. Visualizing what is on a disk or in a folder is a critical function. Search can't do that.

i

tooki - this is so true. I have many files, with the same name, on the same disk. Spotlight is useless for me to find the ONE I want when I can just navigate to it.

Some are forgetting how applications use an established hierarchy of its files into folders, in specific locations. In a database application, you don't just throw all of the files into one folder.

The Finder will never go away, and to think that it can be easily replaced by a single great fantastic search tool is silly.

However, the Finder may get some cosmetic enhancements that abstracts the real stuff underneath their user space. But the functionality we have now in the Finder will not go away, but indeed it will advance with more features.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by SMacTech

tooki - this is so true. I have many files, with the same name, on the same disk. Spotlight is useless for me to find the ONE I want when I can just navigate to it.

Some are forgetting how applications use an established hierarchy of its files into folders, in specific locations. In a database application, you don't just throw all of the files into one folder.

The Finder will never go away, and to think that it can be easily replaced by a single great fantastic search tool is silly.

No...*you're* silly for making such a claim...Spotlight isn't just a search tool.

If you do indeed have many files with the same name, how do you tell them apart? Your answer was 'navigate to it'...if you've navigated to it, there are only a few possible ways you can tell them apart:

1. They were in different folders.
2. They were in different formats in the same folder.
3. Maybe spatiality...but you can't have two files with the same name and extension in the same folder...so...

Anyways...1 and 2 are 'metadata'. (So is 3 but I won't get into that.)

If you can't find your file using Spotlight, it's because you're still thinking the 1984 way of organizing files.

Obviously, whatever folder's name was could be tagged to a file as metadata. With a decent UI, such tagging would be no more difficult than creating a folder. Same with file format...but that one is a freebie and you don't need to tag that information manually.

File path is metadata. It would be entirely possible to create a hierarchical browser that acts like the Finder we know today using metadata tags and using them as a path.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by mpancha

The more I can get my computer to work just like my desk, the better for me.

Yes...there are a lot of people like you. And that's fine. There will always be a system that allows you to make use of static objects to store files.

But what about the group of people that aren't tidy? Should they stop using computers because after a few weeks, their desktop is littered with files?

With the growing number of files on computers, it's nearly impossible to organize them all in a timely manner. How do you guys do it? It's simple, e-mail clients, address book apps, music apps, browsers, photo apps...they all organize most of the files for you. You're just left with text documents, picture/image files, presentations, PDFs, to organize. No wonder things are more manageable.

If you want to prove to me that a hierarchical system is the end all system in 2005, don't use iPhoto, iTunes, Address Book, or Safari, Mail for organizational purposes. Use them only to view or play the file in question. Open them all from the Finder.

Can someone explain to me why these remaining files can't be organized automatically though? Pictures/photos/images are held back by technological constraints...a picture is worth a thousand words but who's gonna take the time to tag a thousand words, right?

But text documents, presentations, PDFs...these things can sure as hell be organized automatically.

The tidy folks have got to realize that's it's possible to be tidy with both a metadata rich system and a static and hierarchical system but that only the metadata rich system can work wonder for someone that is untidy.

[mpancha]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

The tidy folks have got to realize that's it's possible to be tidy with both a metadata rich system and a static and hierarchical system but that only the metadata rich system can work wonder for someone that is untidy.

Don't get me wrong, I still use metadata info to help me search stuff all the time. Why go through the finder and folder hierarchy when I can easily hit command+space and type in a keyword? I do it all the time.

The way I see it, expose/spotlight/and all the other tools and programs we have to search for stuff quickly and easily... is like having a realy great secretary who knows what you're thinking without you completing the though.

[SMacTech]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

No...*you're* silly for making such a claim...Spotlight isn't just a search tool.

If you do indeed have many files with the same name, how do you tell them apart? .

Yes, as a developer, I have many backups of the same files, folder, source code, etc.

I tell them apart by their location. I use Spotlight all the time, but for somethings it doesn't work in the manner that I would like it too. In 1984, the MacOS never had the ability of folder organization that HFS+ has. MFS was the thing back then. I don't think like that.

Please don't refer to me as being silly! I expressed my opinion of an idea as being silly, not YOU personally.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by SMacTech

Yes, as a developer, I have many backups of the same files, folder, source code, etc.

I tell them apart by their location. I use Spotlight all the time, but for somethings it doesn't work in the manner that I would like it too. In 1984, the MacOS never had the ability of folder organization that HFS+ has. MFS was the thing back then. I don't think like that.

Please don't refer to me as being silly! I expressed my opinion of an idea as being silly, not YOU personally.

Fine...your *idea* is silly.

As for the 'many backups of same files, folder, source' idea...here's the thing, it's nice that you can do it manually, but wouldn't it be grand if the OS took care of the versioning for you?

Seems to be the way Apple is heading looking at iPhoto and Aperture (although I'm assuming the way iPhoto handles it pales in comparison to the way Aperture does it because Aperture uses *CoreData* to handle the versioning/non-destructive changes of photos)...

Imagine the Finder (or whatever app that may replace the Finder) handling the versioning of your code?

One file...all versions...modifications to the file handled and remembered by CoreData.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Apple will have to do something radical to counter Vista. Not just another face to the windows or icons, I mean a totally different way of looking at the Finder. NOTHING about the finder now works well.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

Apple will have to do something radical to counter Vista. Not just another face to the windows or icons, I mean a totally different way of looking at the Finder. NOTHING about the finder now works well.

Judging by some of the response in this thread of people wanting to hold Apple back and keeping old practices, I think Apple is up for a major challenge. I don't want Apple to alienate the folks that want to keep storing files inside folders and use paths as a way of organizing things, but I don't want them to only keep offering the 1984 way of doing things (and for the record, the 1984 way includes HFS, not just MFS ).

If Apple isn't ready to push the Finder into the realm of 'just another app'...I'm hoping it'll at least have a new toggle to flip into 'metadata browsing' mode. The current Spotlight integration in the Finder just doesn't do it for me. There should be a way to browse files by specific metadata without the user having to type anything in.

The current Finder has it backassward...currently, you gotta type something in and then fine-tune the search by adding criteria. What we need is a way to browse files by metadata and fine-tune with something typed in. This would do it for people...this would solve the problem and the hatred for Spotlight by some people.

[SMacTech]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

Imagine the Finder (or whatever app that may replace the Finder) handling the versioning of your code?

One file...all versions...modifications to the file handled and remembered by CoreData.

I can envision how this mystical application will work, and how it will obscure the file structure which lies underneath that the Finder now shows us.

However, the Finder won't go away and you will see Spotlight features and performance improve. It will provide even better integration with the Finder. Don't get me wrong, I love the concept of which you are referring too, and agree it will happen. But the paradigm of the Finder, whether it is column view or spatiality, will still exist for a long time.

This mystical app me of the new front row software in the new iMac, with its remote control interface, using simple large icons for selecting what you want. However, things are still held in folders and have a path.

[Randman]

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

Apple will have to do something radical to counter Vista.

Simplicity and effectiveness. While Vista goes crazy with widgets and eye candy and other Apple and Google "killers", (and crashes because of the hefty requirements to run it), Apple can turn the table and make what works even better, even more logical and even more reliable.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by SMacTech

I can envision how this mystical application will work, and how it will obscure the file structure which lies underneath that the Finder now shows us.

However, the Finder won't go away and you will see Spotlight features and performance improve. It will provide even better integration with the Finder. Don't get me wrong, I love the concept of which you are referring too, and agree it will happen. But the paradigm of the Finder, whether it is column view or spatiality, will still exist for a long time.

This mystical app me of the new front row software in the new iMac, with its remote control interface, using simple large icons for selecting what you want. However, things are still held in folders and have a path.

Oh...I agree.

And your point about Front Row is spot on...we'll need 2 things to achieve this. As people have mentioned, we'll need a resolution independent UI. And we'll need to be able to navigate the Finder using a remote. While this won't be the optimal way to use the computer for browsing, it will be necessary as the concept of not always needing to sit in front of the computer grows.

The Finder with column view or spatiality is prefect right now for this...if Apple wants people to use Spotlight for browsing though, they'll need to improve it so that someone can browse the files by metadata without needing to type anything in.

[dashiel]

Originally Posted by SMacTech

I can envision how this mystical application will work, and how it will obscure the file structure which lies underneath that the Finder now shows us.

However, the Finder won't go away and you will see Spotlight features and performance improve. It will provide even better integration with the Finder. Don't get me wrong, I love the concept of which you are referring too, and agree it will happen. But the paradigm of the Finder, whether it is column view or spatiality, will still exist for a long time.

This mystical app me of the new front row software in the new iMac, with its remote control interface, using simple large icons for selecting what you want. However, things are still held in folders and have a path.

i agree, but would like to add to this - while folders and files will continue to exist they will simply become an underlying layer that hardly anyone, but "power" users will fiddle with in the next 10-15 years. the desktop/file/folder structure will be to the new interface, what the command line tool is to the GUI today.

spotlight enabled mail has already transformed that experience for me. nothing gets filed anymore (at least by hand). i have an 1 imap account, 2 pop3 and gmail account all funneling to my inbox. my mail folder structure is as follows:

permanent smart folders
smart folder for items from today
smart folder for items that i haven't yet addressed
smart folder for emails older than 1 year (this is my clinging to the past folder, which i use to
smart folder for all emailed bills
file emails by hand. i'm using it less and less though, i suspect it will be gone when leopard is released)

temporary smart folders
current clients
current email discussion lists

i also do have a dozen or so hold over folders. some of these are from the import of the previous email client, some are just remnants of my old way of doing things. i suspect i will may end up in a situation where i do have some very generic "stupid folders" - work, friends, family, finances, lists used in combination with smart folders and actions, but each day i find myself using folders less and less.

i suspect that the sheer amount of email necessitates some automation, also its asynchronous creation forces me to have some sort of system. currently my use of the finder doesn't really approach email for volume, but to a posters point above, that volume is increasing at a fairly decent clip. my transition in the finder is going take a lot longer though, partly for technical reasons - the current support for meta data is good, but not ideal. certain documents don't get indexed for instance. also as a 20 year GUI user i'll admit that i'm a creature of habit and it's more of cognitive dissidence than actual hinderance of technology.

this post has meandered way off my initial intent, but basically, while files and folders will exist in 15 years, the 15 year olds of the day will look at the concept the same way 15 year olds today look at bash. i for one am really excited at the potential - 30+ years with almost no innovation in the way we interact with computers is an absurdly long time.

[el chupacabra]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

If you do indeed have many files with the same name, how do you tell them apart? Your answer was 'navigate to it'...if you've navigated to it, there are only a few possible ways you can tell them apart:

1. They were in different folders.
2. They were in different formats in the same folder.
3. Maybe spatiality...but you can't have two files with the same name and extension in the same folder...so...

Anyways...1 and 2 are 'metadata'. (So is 3 but I won't get into that.)

what if you forget the meta data names you gave the files so you cant type it in to search for it. I don't know the names of all my folders, I just recognize them when browsing then think "oh yea I think what I need is in here".

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Apple needs to put the FIND back in FINDer. Right now it is too much of a scavenger hunt. God help you if you are looking for some file someone created and you don't know the file name.

[wataru]

Search is worthless if you don't already know what you're looking for. There will always be a need for visual browsing of file hierarchies.