[ZXspectrum]

***

I think that we should pay for themes!

I am new to this wonderful �ThemeWorld� but everybody knows that Today there is no future for any product/ Industry without $$$.

It looks to me that the main themers are serious talented artist that are detecting most of their spare time to do this, and will be happy to be appreciated.

By paying for themes we can push this to the NeXT level


ZXSpectrum
DEMARK

[Jaey]

I don't think many people would buy themes, unless they costed 10 cents each. We did pay $20 for ShapeShifter, it was certainly worth it, but I definitely would not pay for any themes.

[cloudaj]

yeah i think if themes were to be paid for, then a different business model for SS should have been made. Something like royalty fees on themes. Having to pay for shapeshifter and then drop money for themes...i don't know about that. I'd probably do it but I wouldn't be happy about it

[NetworkShadow]

Apple might try to sue your ass for selling the modded Extras.rsrc files that are in the themes. Also you'd have to buy other themer's themes too, and that would kinda suck.

[Patcarla]

Originally posted by NetworkShadow:
Apple might try to sue your ass for selling the modded Extras.rsrc files that are in the themes.

Exactly..

[dws]

Originally posted by Jaey:
I don't think many people would buy themes, unless they costed 10 cents each. We did pay $20 for ShapeShifter, it was certainly worth it, but I definitely would not pay for any themes.

So, you think a theme is only worth 10 cents? How insulting. How dismissive of all the hours it takes to come up with a theme.

I had thought that the fact that themes were provided free of charge should be considered a wonderful boon to the Mac community; a noble act of giving.

If Jaey's insult is the way that many feel, then I've changed my opinion about themes being offered from the goodness of people's hearts and generous spirits. They should cost.

As the feature set of ShapeShifter expands, I think that Unsanity should integrate a mechanism that allows for the watermarking of theme elements; so that all would know who created something. This could lead to incorporating the concept of compensation for the hard work done by themers.

People will freely give of themselves; but only as long as they are appreciated. In the absence of appreciation, then cold, hard cash would be a suitable substitute.

[ZXspectrum]

Originally posted by NetworkShadow:
Apple might try to sue your ass for selling the modded Extras.rsrc files that are in the themes. Also you'd have to buy other themer's themes too, and that would kinda suck.

If that was directed at me I am not selling I am buying.

*A good lawyer can solve that problem.

ZXSpectrum
DENMARK

[chezpaul]

Yeah, charge them 5$... or 7$.. I think with 5$ people wouldn't even think with the kind of hype we get with themes like Omega for instance.

[NetworkShadow]

Originally posted by ZXspectrum:
If that was directed at me I am not selling I am buying.

*A good lawyer can solve that problem.

ZXSpectrum
DENMARK

Well I'm not paying for a lawyer and I doubt I'd pay for any themes other than Omega. (and I plan to send a few $ over paypal to BBX when omega does come) I really think paying for themes is obscured, it's like paying for desktops or icons. People made a huge fuss over paying $20 for SS, I don't think $5 per theme in addition to SS will go over well ether.

[Jaey]

Originally posted by dws:
So, you think a theme is only worth 10 cents? How insulting. How dismissive of all the hours it takes to come up with a theme.

I'm not really certain how to address this question. I definitely do not want to insult themers or their work, but I really wouldn't want to pay anything for a theme.

[ZXspectrum]

Originally posted by Jaey:
I'm not really certain how to address this question. I definitely do not want to insult themers or their work, but I really wouldn't want to pay anything for a theme.

1. http://www.wackypixel.com/ doing pretty good.

2. People made a huge fuss over paying $20 for SS because if always difficult to pay for something that was given away for free.

Look what happened from the moment that SS was out�a lot

ZXSpectrum
DENMARK

[Jaey]

I wouldn't buy anything from there.

[ZXspectrum]

Originally posted by NetworkShadow:
Well I'm not paying for a lawyer and I doubt I'd pay for any themes other than Omega. (and I plan to send a few $ over paypal to BBX when omega does come) I really think paying for themes is obscured, it's like paying for desktops or icons. People made a huge fuss over paying $20 for SS, I don't think $5 per theme in addition to SS will go over well ether.

1. http://www.wackypixel.com/ doing pretty good.

2. People made a huge fuss over paying $20 for SS because if always difficult to pay for something that was given away for free.

Look what happened from the moment that SS was out�a lot

ZXSpectrum
DENMARK

[:dragonflypro:]

Hey, last I checked you were able to make donations to the themers... and you should.

It isn't hard.... and if everyone who used the good ones donated 2 bucks per theme... or say 10 for the entire themers library... that would certainly help out a lot.

The themers don't get into this for cash.... but a digital Jefferson, Hamilton.... or a Jackson if you're nasty .. would certainly keep the themes from the talented flowing.

Conclusion: donation-ware works.... and it is cool.

T

[Jaey]

That's a good point. Donate to the themers you think deserve the cash. You shouldn't have to pay, though, for every theme you download. Nobody would do that.

[quandarry]

people do themes with the sweat off their bags.
with the work that goes into them no one could afford to pay for that sweat.

[ZXspectrum]

Originally posted by :dragonflypro::
Hey, last I checked you were able to make donations to the themers... and you should.

It isn't hard.... and if everyone who used the good ones donated 2 bucks per theme... or say 10 for the entire themers library... that would certainly help out a lot.

The themers don't get into this for cash.... but a digital Jefferson, Hamilton.... or a Jackson if you're nasty .. would certainly keep the themes from the talented flowing.

Conclusion: donation-ware works.... and it is cool.

T

The themers don't get into this for the $$$� maybe.

But if you create a market for them I think they will be more then happy to this for a job.

Donation-ware is noble but also very amateur.


*Just paid $20 for �Power Metal Swizstyle�

[Jaey]

They wouldn't make any money.

[ZXspectrum]

Originally posted by Jaey:
They wouldn't make any money.

You are missing the point!

Nobody expect them to leave their jobs and become full time themers. It�s the 1st step that we need to take, Paying for SS paying for themes� and who knows maybe in a few years instead of choosing from 10 good themes that are free we will choose from a 1000 themes for sale.


ZXSpectrum
DENMARK

[Lefo]

I may pay for SS; I paid for Kaleidoscope. But, I will never pay for a theme. Never did in Kaleidoscope, and there were tons of schemes to choose from. It was a labor of love for a lot of people, myself included. Those who wanted to be paid for their schemes had various reasons for their requests. One in particular was due to help out with a child who had medical needs.

If anyone asks for donations for their theme and I felt the theme was that good, then I'd contribute. Otherwise, no. Bad enough we have to pay to change them. Expecting more is unrealistic. Regardless of whether you believe that or not, the Kaleidoscope model proved it in the past. No reason to see a change in the business model or the general public perception now.

Lefo

[dws]

Originally posted by Jaey:
They wouldn't make any money.

As the state of OS X themes current exists; no, they wouldn't make much money.

But... Move forward a few years, and take into account the natural progression of applications such as ShapeShifter & other programs (Xtender?), then you could easily reach a point where the benefits of (what will be called themes, but which will be very different than what we see today) will be significant enough that monetary compensation will be deserved.

There is a valid business model here. Some people can't see it quite yet, because all they're looking at are a few resources swapped on the fly.

Looking at the future is why I think now is the time to lay the groundwork for themes that cannot be copied or modified by anybody but their authors. Protection of one's intellectual property is an essential first step in creating a valid business model.

The concept of donationware is fine, for now; but falls apart when the day comes that uber themes could be available at CompUSA.

A common mistake that people make when thinking of themes is to equate ShapeShifter with Kaleidescope. Kaleidescope, as good as it was, was still the end of a process; and had limitations that could never be overcome. ShapeShifter is quite a different beast; with capabilities that will redefine what we think of as a theme. I don't have to have any insider knowledge of Unsanity's plans for SS. I know Cocoa, I know Quartz; and I know that OpenGL could be added to mix - leading to possibilities that will redefine (what we call) themes.

Many will say that I'm wearing rose-colored glasses, or that Unsanity doesn't make enough money to devote the time and effort necessary to develop what I'm talking about; but I think that it will be inevitable.

Or... I've used up all my gray matter creating my entry to the SS contest (and drank way too much coffee in the process) and am now living in a world of delusion; divorced from all reality!!!

[ZXspectrum]

Originally posted by dws:
As the state of OS X themes current exists; no, they wouldn't make much money.

But... Move forward a few years, and take into account the natural progression of applications such as ShapeShifter & other programs (Xtender?), then you could easily reach a point where the benefits of (what will be called themes, but which will be very different than what we see today) will be significant enough that monetary compensation will be deserved.

There is a valid business model here. Some people can't see it quite yet, because all they're looking at are a few resources swapped on the fly.

Looking at the future is why I think now is the time to lay the groundwork for themes that cannot be copied or modified by anybody but their authors. Protection of one's intellectual property is an essential first step in creating a valid business model.

The concept of donationware is fine, for now; but falls apart when the day comes that uber themes could be available at CompUSA.

A common mistake that people make when thinking of themes is to equate ShapeShifter with Kaleidescope. Kaleidescope, as good as it was, was still the end of a process; and had limitations that could never be overcome. ShapeShifter is quite a different beast; with capabilities that will redefine what we think of as a theme. I don't have to have any insider knowledge of Unsanity's plans for SS. I know Cocoa, I know Quartz; and I know that OpenGL could be added to mix - leading to possibilities that will redefine (what we call) themes.

Many will say that I'm wearing rose-colored glasses, or that Unsanity doesn't make enough money to devote the time and effort necessary to develop what I'm talking about; but I think that it will be inevitable.

Or... I've used up all my gray matter creating my entry to the SS contest (and drank way too much coffee in the process) and am now living in a world of delusion; divorced from all reality!!!

Exactly my point!

More than that Themes are addictive and if we wont abuse this fact we will have a strong loyal community.

ZXSpectrum
DENMARK

[kmkkid]

Originally posted by ZXspectrum:


I think that we should pay for themes!


ZXSpectrum
DEMARK

Please just go away.


Chris

[ZXspectrum]

Originally posted by kmkkid:
Please just go away.


Chris

Give me a good reason and i will

ZXSpectrum
DENMARK

[NetworkShadow]

Originally posted by kmkkid:
Please just go away.


Chris

I agree.

[ZXspectrum]

Originally posted by NetworkShadow:
I agree.

Every time it�s the same story when it comes to money the best solution is to run away. I know that it's hard for you guys to see the big picture but try to be less emotional about this and you will understand.


ZXSpectrum
DENMARK




I hope that you are not just being Cheap?

[Jaey]

I've decided that I'm done with you. From now on, you are ignored.

[onlooker]

I have to touch on this now. In a case such as Omega I think that BBX is obviously deserving of payment - if I understand what it is he is doing correctly, but as for just mod'ing resources I couldn't accept money for that. It's time consuming yes, but it's not all that. I started theme-ing that way a while back when I helped Derek Gordon start to update his fur theme (with out his consent originally) from 10.1.x to 10.2+. I've been mod'ing my resources ever since.
I have to agree that that those are not my resources to be charging money for. It's basically pasting custom elements over the work of Apple designers, and it belongs to Apple. What BBX is doing is far different.

I couldn't live with myself if I were to charge for a simple resource mod that actually doesn't belong to me, and I certainly wouldn't pay for one.

[ZXspectrum]

Originally posted by Jaey:
I've decided that I'm done with you. From now on, you are ignored.

This is an important subject that you can ignore if you like. But I didn�t say anything directly against you so I don�t understand why you are so personal.
If you want to ignore someone why announce it? Just do.

I have notice on this Gui forum a lot of emotional people that are getting mad very quickly and sometimes behaving like children.
If they hear something that they don�t like immediately they attack.

If you care about themeing I think you should trust me on the money thing, it will only make things better.

Have a nice day


**I don�t know what is your profession but I can assure you that I am more than qualified to speak about money.

[Frisbee]

I personally think paying for themes is a bad idea. I would pay for something like shapeshifter, because it has a long term use. Themes on the other hand, I use for a week at max, get bored with them, switch to another. Also, in order to preview the theme, you would have to look at some type of screenshot the artist posts on their website. Previews don't always do a theme justice- they can make them look better or worse, and I have downloaded what I thought to be awesome themes in the past, yet they turn out to be bad when actually used. Also, a preview doesn't do a good job of illustrating how usable a theme is, possibly what bugs it has... an author could purposely use the theme in a situation which it looks very well to deceive a user into buying it. You speak so much of a business model- could you try to illustrate?

The current model is great. If I ever did find a theme that I thought was really great, I used it for a long time, and I thought the author deserved some cash, I'd give it to them. If someone else doesn't want to, I understand. So unless the priced themes had demo periods of about a month, I would probably just give up and make my own theme. We have a great community going, and if it's not broke, don't fix it.

Many people say that if we can buy a mac, we can buy themes / theme changing utilities, etc. They are overlooking the possibility that we may not have bought our mac, yet we do have to pay for software etc. If I had bought my computer, I'd have gotten some $300 pre-installed linux x86 box, because I can afford it.

Please, don't make themes a luxury banned from those who can't afford it, these great works of art should be available for all.

[kingskel]

Optional donations (as it is currently) is the most practial approach.

Personally, I rarely buy software, but I use and like Milk so much I donated a small amount to Max. As it's the only one I like and use, I use the .dlta and bypass SS.

Ultimately, those who appreciate software and can afford it will pay, and those who don't use it as much or can't afford it won't.

With this question, as others have pointed out, there's additional issues of legality, a very small market (not only because of Mac marketshare, but people who actually "switch" themes enough to make it worthwhile for the authors), and a public suddenly being asked to pay for something they have been receiving for free. Discussion and new ideas are great, but this one seems impractical.

[Jaey]

I counted my themes, and if each theme costed just $1 (and ShapeShifter $20), I would need $51 just for a little design that (as Frisbee said) I'm going to change every week. You can do a lot with $51, and I'm planning on getting more themes.

If each theme was $1, I wouldn't buy many (if any at all), so the $20-$25 I would be paying would be wasted.

[quandarry]

die...

[wibs]

Originally posted by onlooker:
In a case such as Omega I think that BBX is obviously deserving of payment - if I understand what it is he is doing correctly, but as for just mod'ing resources I couldn't accept money for that.

He's still just swapping around resources. Maybe to a greater extent than before, but my judgement on Omega is reserved until after I put it on my computer (or at the very least after I see a screenshot of something other than a backwards Konfabulator widget in 3D space not shown at proper scale). Usability in dark themes I think isn't going to be an issue that completely disappears with SS 1.5 (which is an opinion based on no facts, no facts is all I have to work with.)

Even if you assume that BBX is doing much more than just swapping resources, and ShapeShifter 1.5 allows absolutely incredible customizability, does this mean that you would be willing to pay for every other theme also using SS 1.5 to do what it's supposed to do?

If you want to support someone with a donation that's great, you're a better (or at least wealthier) person than I am. Download fees are ludicrous.

[ZXspectrum]

O.k.

$1= 1 theme

Than according to MacUpdate.com alone!!!

1st month's Salary:

MAX - $17,000 (6 themes)
SS - $7000 (3 themes)

*ShapeShifter = 20,000 downloads!! (VT+MU)

-----

Maybe it�s never going to be a big business but it�s defiantly a business it�s called accessories, which is in some industries it turned into their main business

[Jaey]

You have to realize that as soon as you start charging for the themes, a lot less people will download them. The market would be much smaller, and not much money would be made from it.

[Lateralus]

Without the theme developers, ShapeShifter is worthless and does nothing. Unsanity should give theme developers a cut of the profits.

[TheSpaz]

Here's what I think... I don't think much... but, I just thought about this...

If I was a themer (which I don't have the patience for)... I would make a theme and of course it would be hard and a lot of work, but there's a certain part of me that would say "Hey, I like doing this and seeing the end result makes me happy." And then after the theme is made... most themers will post it on the internet somehow or another in hopes that someone else will experience their feeling and enjoy their hard work. When I share a desktop picture on the internet that I make... I don't say "Well, I'm not getting money when people download my desktop, so it wans't worth making it"... Instead I say "Hey, I hope I made someone's desktop happy... that's all it was. And a small part of that is that "I like it" so it doesn't matter if people use it.

Know what I'm saying? Who else feels like this. Donations are nice... but, I don't think themers should actualy CHARGE money for themes

(not all of us have money... hehe)

[ZXspectrum]

Originally posted by TheSpaz:
Here's what I think... I don't think much... but, I just thought about this...

If I was a themer (which I don't have the patience for)... I would make a theme and of course it would be hard and a lot of work, but there's a certain part of me that would say "Hey, I like doing this and seeing the end result makes me happy." And then after the theme is made... most themers will post it on the internet somehow or another in hopes that someone else will experience their feeling and enjoy their hard work. When I share a desktop picture on the internet that I make... I don't say "Well, I'm not getting money when people download my desktop, so it wans't worth making it"... Instead I say "Hey, I hope I made someone's desktop happy... that's all it was. And a small part of that is that "I like it" so it doesn't matter if people use it.

Know what I'm saying? Who else feels like this. Donations are nice... but, I don't think themers should actualy CHARGE money for themes

(not all of us have money... hehe)

Is this means that if you will be happy at your job or even your part time job you will just work for free? What are you saying?

�Well, I'm not getting money when people download my desktop, so it wasn�t worth making it" - You are comparing a Screenshot that you took to months of hard work?

�(not all of us have money... hehe)� - but you have a computer/website/server space�.come on please don�t be so spoiled.



It looks to me like most people on this Tread are using what is called in a professional language �emotional blackmail� when People are using Guilt felling to Manipulate.

Please try to stay processional and stick to the point

Thanks
ZXSpectrum
DENMARK

[swiz]

Bottomline is, themes are a labor of love. We start them because we are inspired to make our workspace more personalized to ourselves and ultimately, someone else also enjoys the look. Getting paid for it would be nice but thats just common sense, who's gonna turn down money? Donation-ware is good. I havent received even approaching a dollar amount which would pay any of my bills in a given month but thats why I have other sources of real income.

I can say though , when I do get an email that someone has donated voluntarilly, it makes me feel so good inside. In a day and age where so many people pirate apps and stuff just to get out of having to pay for them, for someone to wantingly give there donation out of shear appreciation; that is a pretty freaking warm and fuzzy feeling for me.

Thanks

[Tulkas]

Originally posted by swiz:
Bottomline is, themes are a labor of love. We start them because we are inspired to make our workspace more personalized to ourselves and ultimately, someone else also enjoys the look. Getting paid for it would be nice but thats just common sense, who's gonna turn down money? Donation-ware is good. I havent received even approaching a dollar amount which would pay any of my bills in a given month but thats why I have other sources of real income.

I can say though , when I do get an email that someone has donated voluntarilly, it makes me feel so good inside. In a day and age where so many people pirate apps and stuff just to get out of having to pay for them, for someone to wantingly give there donation out of shear appreciation; that is a pretty freaking warm and fuzzy feeling for me.

Thanks

Yup, I agree. Money just can't buy that warm fuzzy feeling

[NetworkShadow]

Originally posted by Tulkas:
Yup, I agree. Money just can't buy that warm fuzzy feeling

Indeed. I'm just going to use my themes as portfolio peaces to help me get design jobs that do pay. Themes should be free.

[ZXspectrum]

Originally posted by Tulkas:
Yup, I agree. Money just can't buy that warm fuzzy feeling

Money can't buy what???


I think SWIZ meant that the warm fuzzy felling is coming from the donation, which is just a nicer way to give money.

If you truly want to appreciation someone you write him a nice letter it feels more personal, but if you think he is a Pro and not an amateur pay him for his work.
I paid him $20 for Power Metal because I thought it was professional and complex I see it as advance design.


Please don�t take this the wrong way I am just trying to find out if some of the talented people in this community have ambitions to take their skills to the NeXT level, but than again sometimes people are afraid of that.


We start at $1 for a theme - it won�t kill anyone the themers will get thousands of warm fuzzy fallings, and have more time to do more themes.


P.s- I saw are everybody where nervous when SWIZ was announcing is retirement or the crazy mad comments on BBX delaying his theme, why do you think all of this had happened

[ZXspectrum]

Originally posted by NetworkShadow:
Indeed. I'm just going to use my themes as portfolio peaces to help me get design jobs that do pay. Themes should be free.

I don�t want to pay for themes 2 but it�s not about me and it�s not about the money it�s about having the possibility to see the full potential of Themeing.

[Tarambana]

Why do you think paying for themes will make them reach "their full potential"? I already think there are some themers (Max, Swix�) that do make themes up to their full potential. Also, I can't understand what would change if we paid that would save us from half-finished themes. Do you think they would just come to an end? Because in mi opinion, they'd still be there, at least for the ones that don't want to pay.

All that said, I think what we have now works quite well. Yet if themers started asking for money, I would gladly pay.

Tara.

[ZXspectrum]

Originally posted by Tarambana:
Why do you think paying for themes will make them reach "their full potential"? I already think there are some themers (Max, Swix�) that do make themes up to their full potential. Also, I can't understand what would change if we paid that would save us from half-finished themes. Do you think they would just come to an end? Because in mi opinion, they'd still be there, at least for the ones that don't want to pay.

All that said, I think what we have now works quite well. Yet if themers started asking for money, I would gladly pay.

Tara.

It�s very simple the themers at this moment are amateurs (A person who engages in an art, science, study, or athletic activity as a pastime rather than as a profession) it�s a fact.

Being a talented person is a privilege but it wont bring you anywhere without years of hard work (TIME).
99% of the greatest people in the history reach their full potential by being obsessed with their work, which requires...TIME.

Maybe themeing wont change the world but we can change thiming by getting more resources and exposure that will allow us to give them TIME to experiment new possibilities.

Unfortunally in today�s society Time=Money so if the themers will make a living out of this they will have more TIME for theming simple.

*If we wouldn�t pay for OS probably you would be running on Mac Os 5.5 today.

**This is the system that runs this world as today. The only chance we have is to use the money to build instead of destroy.


Being close-minded or afraid will end all, Am I still speaking about themeing?

[wibs]

Originally posted by ZXspectrum:
Am I still speaking about themeing?

No, which means you've effectively moved away from the topic you started.

Good job.

[Anderton]

If a themer wants to sell their themes, it's nothing stopping them!

Or do you want to sell a Microsoftish "Theme Plus+" CD?

I don't see the point of your topic?

[quandarry]

die thread die!

[ZXspectrum]

Originally posted by Anderton:
If a themer wants to sell their themes, it's nothing stopping them!

Or do you want to sell a Microsoftish "Theme Plus+" CD?

I don't see the point of your topic?

1 point is that if people don�t want to wait 6 months until Omega is out!

**Cheek out the mad thread: new BBX GUI Overlay Kit - BBX OMEGA�