[EddieDesignsDotCom]

Oh My God! At this moment in time, OS X means little to me right now... there are more important things to think about.

[KidRed]

Yes, today was a truly sad day in our history and for the friends and family of those in NY.

[kovacs]

This day has changed the world...

[EddieDesignsDotCom]

just read this at http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/12/national/12PASS.html

"Akamai Technologies, an Internet services company based in Cambridge, Mass., said a technology billionaire, a founder of the company and its chief technology officer, Daniel C. Lewin, was on board the same plane."

tomahawk@usslongbeach>locate osama
/bin/laden
tomahawk@usslongbeach>rm -rf /bin/laden
rm: permission denied
tomahawk@usslongbeach>sudo rm -rf /bin/laden
rm: /bin/laden: override Taliban:Afghanistan -rwx------ (yes/no)? yes
tomahawk@usslongbeach>locate osama
osama not found
tomahawk@usslongbeach>

[Oneota]

Originally posted by <none>:
<STRONG>tomahawk@usslongbeach&gt;locate osama
/bin/laden
tomahawk@usslongbeach&gt;rm -rf /bin/laden
rm: permission denied
tomahawk@usslongbeach&gt;sudo rm -rf /bin/laden
rm: /bin/laden: override Taliban:Afghanistan -rwx------ (yes/no)? yes
tomahawk@usslongbeach&gt;locate osama
osama not found
tomahawk@usslongbeach&gt;</STRONG>

Agreed.

Here's hoping that decent civilization can triumph over the cowards who would destroy it.

[sniffer]

..
This has really shocked the world, Nato and Norway.
..
Hope W. Bush knows what he is doing..
..
My condolences for the victims.

[Drizzt]

There's just something I would say about the cowardice...

Just to mention you.. I'm north american, I'm canadian.. I'm also frustrated about the events.. BUT.. a little reminder..

In the minds of the one we call cowards, we are the terrorists. We are the devils who took their lands, who put our nose were it did'nt belong and everything. Most of the people there would rather kill an american than eat. Why?

I'd say.. differencies between our societies came to bring the level of hate to the maximum it can reach.

I agree that something must be done, to defend ourself, to claim that these lifes that were taken were worth something. But answering violence by violence won't give us anything, except more violence.

I just hope Bush will understand this...

[mmj_ngen]

The company that I work for is matching, dollar for dollar, donations by employees for NYC victims (or related disaster relief fund).

I just wanted to throw that out there. Someone may want to try to get their own company to do the same. Every little bit counts. It would be great if the company donated a bunch of cash, but I guess this is the next best thing.

[sniffer]

Originally posted by Drizzt:
<STRONG>There's just something I would say about the cowardice...

Just to mention you.. I'm north american, I'm canadian.. I'm also frustrated about the events.. BUT.. a little reminder..

In the minds of the one we call cowards, we are the terrorists. We are the devils who took their lands, who put our nose were it did'nt belong and everything. Most of the people there would rather kill an american than eat. Why?

I'd say.. differencies between our societies came to bring the level of hate to the maximum it can reach.

I agree that something must be done, to defend ourself, to claim that these lifes that were taken were worth something. But answering violence by violence won't give us anything, except more violence.

I just hope Bush will understand this...</STRONG>

Agree totaly!

It's also important to point out that any new acts by USA in this case, will impact the international climatic situation years to come. He has a huge responsibility. I really hope Bush understands that to.

[JB72]

Originally posted by Drizzt:
<STRONG>In the minds of the one we call cowards, we are the terrorists. We are the devils who took their lands, who put our nose were it did'nt belong and everything. Most of the people there would rather kill an american than eat. Why?</STRONG>

I'm sure glad you realize how important it is at this time to be sensitive to the views of these sick killers. I wonder how you would feel if it was one of your family who perished?

[Ghoser777]

Although it seems likely the bin Laden was behind this tragedy, we still aren't sure. I hope we do 2 things:

1. Do not jump to conclusions about who we thought did it before we get enough evidence (remember the Oklahoma Ciry Bombing? We thought it was a Muslim at first)

2. Do not retaliate against Middle Easterners. I have a good friend from that area and nothing pisses me off more than posts on slashdot from people saying "Death to all Muslims" and other racists comments.

F-bacher

[sordid]

Originally posted by Drizzt:
<STRONG>There's just something I would say about the cowardice...

Just to mention you.. I'm north american, I'm canadian.. I'm also frustrated about the events.. BUT.. a little reminder..

In the minds of the one we call cowards, we are the terrorists. We are the devils who took their lands, who put our nose were it did'nt belong and everything. Most of the people there would rather kill an american than eat. Why?

I'd say.. differencies between our societies came to bring the level of hate to the maximum it can reach.

I agree that something must be done, to defend ourself, to claim that these lifes that were taken were worth something. But answering violence by violence won't give us anything, except more violence.

I just hope Bush will understand this...</STRONG>

They may think that the US are terrorists, so they try and act out a simplisticly minded revengeful attack.

By simplistically minded I mean that this is one of the flaws of human beings. People aren't on equivalent intelectual thinking levels. These people being in poorer countries (or different cultures or whatever) might have less exposure to decent philosophical discussions on how to combat problems. They would take the typical "eye for an eye" (and I am generalising) approach and go with their feelings and make a hard hit back.

One of the common things for human beings to do when they work off feelings is that they tend to speculate and rather than using rational thought. They will become worked up over a situation because they don't see the whole picture and run on feelings and instinct. This has been evident throughout history, it is the sole reason why there are wars. Hitler was convinced the Jews were a hinderance on society because he saw them being more affluent in his society. The Jewish people have been seen to be determined people (and for bloody good reasons too!) so Hitler not being a Jew probably listened and became worked up over many pittiful slanderous remarks about Jewish people. Well you can become worked up over a situation and it can eventually lead to concentration camps and genocide in extreme cases.

People have to think rationally all the time when it comes to matters like this!

Until rational thought is drilled into the head of EVERY human being on earth, then there will always be some form of instability in the world.

But everyone isn't created equal. People do have mental disorders and this will always be a problem. The best we can do is keep on teaching these ideas about rational thinking, freedom and rational debate and try to help those less fortunate than ourselves. There always must be a balance.

One more thing. Any particular current mainstream religion doesn't breed evil. Ignorance breeds evil.

My 2 cents.

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: sordid ]

95% of the reason for this senseless violence is caused by the absolutely horrendous behavior of the Israelis towards the Palestinians. The Israelis have been beating the Sh*t out of the Palestinians for years now and they have been taught that the US is the protector/friend of Israel and they should direct their anger towards US....

I find it understandable that the Palestinians while throwing mostly rocks and sticks and fired at by tanks, attack helicopter gunships, and machine guns, have been hardened and are hateful towards Israel and the US...

My condolences and prayers go out to all Americans harmed by the cowards.. I hope positive change comes out of this, and I don't mean just increasing security at airports.

[dogzilla]

Originally posted by &lt;Bill Crates&gt;:
<STRONG>95% of the reason for this senseless violence is caused by the absolutely horrendous behavior of the Israelis towards the Palestinians.</STRONG>

Yeah - the terrorist use of senseless violence appeared out of the blue with the creation of the Israeli state in 1948, right? Get real. As far back as 1078 the Hashishim (or Assasins) were practicing a form of terrorism that we'd find perfectly recognizable today. The use of random violence by fanatical and brainwashed followers against noncombatants to further the selfish goals of their leaders has a long, long history in the Middle East. Pinning the blame on the Israeli state and its US supporters is pathetically uneducated thinking. What about the terrorist attacks against the British before Israel was even formed? Or the violent attacks against immigrant Jews in Palestine as far back as 1845? Or against the Ottoman empire before that? Senseless violence simply seems to be the preferred method of conflict resolution for a small but significant minority in the Middle East.

Noone would mistake the Israelis for angels. Then again, being repeatedly invaded by massive conventional forces from all your neighbors, non-stop terrorist attacks against your nationals throughout the entire history of your country, and standing blood oaths calling for the destruction of every Israeli man, woman, and child as well as the Israeli state itself probably makes you a bit paranoid and trigger-happy, especially after trying to live in peace for 30 years got you exactly nowhere with your Arab neighbors. Even the neighboring states that have signed peace treaties with Israel (Egypt, Jordan) still knowingly harbor terrorists commited to the destruction of the Israeli state and people.

If you really want to start laying blame for the senseless violence, you better educate yourself on a little history first and make sure you see the evidence with open eyes. The Israelis have perpetrated some pretty horrible things lately, but their violence is clearly retaliatory and decidedly *not* "senseless".

[Drizzt]

I realize how harmfull it is.. really..

I've lost my father because of a sudden heart attack. The doc was surprised when he learned his death. At that time I thought : "All doctors are lairs".. but soon realized how illogic that was.

This is the same thing here...

As I said, violence will bring more violence.. and believe me it will.

There is more way that kicking the butt to get revenge... and I'm in the problem as more as you with the 5th item of the Nato Treaty..

[sordid]

Originally posted by &lt;Bill Crates&gt;:
<STRONG>95% of the reason for this senseless violence is caused by the absolutely horrendous behavior of the Israelis towards the Palestinians. The Israelis have been beating the Sh*t out of the Palestinians for years now and they have been taught that the US is the protector/friend of Israel and they should direct their anger towards US....

I find it understandable that the Palestinians while throwing mostly rocks and sticks and fired at by tanks, attack helicopter gunships, and machine guns, have been hardened and are hateful towards Israel and the US...

My condolences and prayers go out to all Americans harmed by the cowards.. I hope positive change comes out of this, and I don't mean just increasing security at airports.</STRONG>

You know I think the Israeli people have been fighting the wrong battle. It is important for them to elimitate the threat, but really all they are doing is building a pressure cooker so each time they kill a fanatic, 100 more fanatics are born.

But what can the Israeli people do apart from attack them?

Is this actually a practical solution or is it the same kind of terrorism the US has just seen? Whatever you call it, to the person on the other side it's something to make you very p!ssed off. Just look at how p!ssed off America is.

My solution is one dose of very very calculated covert action to destroy bin laden (or whoever is responsible) followed up by a total white wash of propaganda by the media on how we can only live together through the reasons I already mentioned.

The media is the most powerful weapon against terrorism.

Take a look at what Ghandi did in his life and how he did it, that is the kind of people the world really needs.

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: sordid ]

Allow me to educate you in a few things:

Originally posted by dogzilla:
<STRONG>

Yeah - the terrorist use of senseless violence appeared out of the blue with the creation of the Israeli state in 1948, right? Get real.

-- Israel was created in 1948 unilaterally and replaced a region already known as Palestine without the permission of the Palestinians. In effect they were displaced (similar to American colonialists taking land from the native Indians).. The US, British, and French (in that order) recognized Israel because of the guilt felt towards the persecution of the Jews at the hands of Hitler, Stalin, (and we could go on through history: Napolean, Pontius Pilate/Augustus Caesar, Ramses II..).. Why have the Jews been persecuted so often throughout history? Well, I'm sure its totally unfounded, and that they tend to live in harmony with their neighbors and don't harbor any sort of superiority complexes...

As far back as 1078 the Hashishim (or Assasins) were practicing a form of terrorism that we'd find perfectly recognizable today. The use of random violence by fanatical and brainwashed followers against noncombatants to further the selfish goals of their leaders has a long, long history in the Middle East.

-- What's funny here is that the Middle East includes Israel/Palestine. Since Israeli founders claimed (prior to 1948) beginning in modern times with Theodore Herzl in 1897 with his writing of "The Jewish State" that the area now known as Israel was promised to them by God and that it is their "right" to have a state in this area they have been on the not-so-popular list with their Arab neighbors. The Arabs remember that Palestine was the name of the territory and that it was basically stolen overnight in 1948 by the Jews. Now, if we accept that the territory now known as Israel was once, thousands of years ago, a Jewish state and that because of that, it should be again we need to all move out of the US and return it to the Iroquois/Commanches/Sioux etc... Who knows who really has claim to France, Germany and the rest of Europe. What should the cutoff date be?

Pinning the blame on the Israeli state and its US supporters is pathetically uneducated thinking. What about the terrorist attacks against the British before Israel was even formed? Or the violent attacks against immigrant Jews in Palestine as far back as 1845? Or against the Ottoman empire before that? Senseless violence simply seems to be the preferred method of conflict resolution for a small but significant minority in the Middle East.

-- I will refrain from calling you names. See my paragraph above for info.

Noone would mistake the Israelis for angels. Then again, being repeatedly invaded by massive conventional forces from all your neighbors, non-stop terrorist attacks against your nationals throughout the entire history of your country, and standing blood oaths calling for the destruction of every Israeli man, woman, and child as well as the Israeli state itself probably makes you a bit paranoid and trigger-happy, especially after trying to live in peace for 30 years got you exactly nowhere with your Arab neighbors. Even the neighboring states that have signed peace treaties with Israel (Egypt, Jordan) still knowingly harbor terrorists commited to the destruction of the Israeli state and people.

-- If I thought I could convince you I would have the secret to Middle East peace. I don't claim to be a miracle worker and won't try to convince you but state the facts: Israel is surrounded by "enemies" because they feel that Israel is not a legitimate state and not created legitimately. In the early 1900's the palestinian jewish population lived in harmony. After the mass exodus in WW I and especially WW II of jews to the territory the population mix was massively destablized with alot more Jews arriving then existing Palestinians and it resulted in a Jewish "takeover" of Palestine.

If you really want to start laying blame for the senseless violence, you better educate yourself on a little history first and make sure you see the evidence with open eyes. The Israelis have perpetrated some pretty horrible things lately, but their violence is clearly retaliatory and decidedly *not* "senseless".</STRONG>

-- These kinds of justifications will only maintain the status quo. Why don't you open your eyes and open a few more books with balanced information. Preferably ones not published in Tel-Aviv, Jerusalem, or any Arab country.

[Drizzt]

Yeah.. media is the real weapon now.. not nukes, not biological warfare or anything else..

The proof.. look at how many enteprises that closed their door because of yesterday... even in Europe and Canada...

I truly believe that one day Humanity will try to unite.. but unfortunatly.. I don't think it's going to be anytime soon...

[sordid]

Just look at how China keeps its country together, its complete propaganda through the media. And its effective!!!

They even admit to this!

I think propaganda and the media can be used as a tool to influence the masses (people who aren't up to this kind of thinking) and it can be used for good. It so often has negative connetations only because its been seen to be used for bad, but the US has used it for many years.

It's the way the government write the play script for the media to broadcast after this event (they don't directly write it but they keep the plot interesting) and if countrys don't see this as a threat then they will let the media keep on playing this.

2 words, hardcore propaganda.

I completely agree with SORDID and DRIZZT.

The media makes PERCEPTION -&gt; REALITY.

From the photo/video editors to the copy editors, they can completely shape the facts that we perceive.

Pickup a Time magazine and notice how all the Democrats are shown with bright smiley photos while Republicans usually look dark and sinistar. Pickup a US News and World Report and you will see the exact opposite.

Its really quite amazing that it is so blatant yet hardly anyone notices...

[sordid]

Originally posted by &lt;Bill Crates&gt;:
<STRONG>I completely agree with SORDID and DRIZZT.

The media makes PERCEPTION -&gt; REALITY.

From the photo/video editors to the copy editors, they can completely shape the facts that we perceive.

Pickup a Time magazine and notice how all the Democrats are shown with bright smiley photos while Republicans usually look dark and sinistar. Pickup a US News and World Report and you will see the exact opposite.

Its really quite amazing that it is so blatant yet hardly anyone notices...</STRONG>

Its very true, left wing and marxist and right wing groups always take advantage of the media in this respect. I think it is quite evident in my country (Australia) as well.

Communist countrys such as Russia use to master this very well.

Kill the fanatics with Americanism!

[sordid]

heck even Apple use it all the time!

[Drizzt]

Yeah.. I've seen this kind of propaganda in my Psychology classes (yes I'm still student.. and I'm in computer science.. and yes we had a planned class of Psychology )

These event reminds me of System Of A Down claims..

They want the Armenian Genocide to be accepted by the USA and other countries... and until now they failed. Millions died under the wrath of Turcs.. and nobody sees that as a historic fact. They claim the Turcs financed propaganda againts this.

Than.. yesterday.. probably 55 000 people died or got badly hurt. It's bad, real bad, but it is really shown as the worst event on earth since WWII (almost). Than.. I remmeber seeing on the TV that the Irakies (I believe) were really sorry for what hapenned, but that it was hapenning everyday there.

Is it really that worse? Or is it just worst because it was the USA?

Anyways....

As I said to some of my friends..

&lt;tender souls please do not read&gt;

They took real good and strategic targets, but they should have done their attacks at night, when there was nobody in the buildings.

I understand what the terrorists want to claim by their acts, I also comdamn the use of violence to promote it, but I mostly condamn to lost of innocent lives to show it.

Anyways.. time to sleep now

[Nonsuch]

Originally posted by &lt;Bill Crates&gt;:
<STRONG>Allow me to educate you in a few things:

&lt;snip&gt;

-- These kinds of justifications will only maintain the status quo. Why don't you open your eyes and open a few more books with balanced information. Preferably ones not published in Tel-Aviv, Jerusalem, or any Arab country.</STRONG>

And where exactly does the "education" part come in?

Dogzilla posted an articulate, well-informed discussion of how ingrained the tensions between Palestine and Israel are, with a great deal of historical background; you respond with smug, patronizing generalizations.

If Dogzilla is wrong, post and say why. What's in these great "balanced" books you read that are apparently so untainted with pro-Jewish propaganda? Because right now Dogzilla has a lot more credibility than you.

Best wishes to everyone in this terrible time.

[sordid]

For me, I think that something like this happening to the US is worse. The reason is it shakes at the foundations of what the propaganda has built. I believe that the US and first world countries represent the future of humanity even though they may have still have (opinionatively and comparitively) minor flaws. There must be a leader country who has to set an example of how things "could be". The reason the US government really wants as they say "retribution" is the loss of life on American soil (which is logical) doubled with the fact that it has had a spanner thrown in the propaganda wheel. But rest assured I think the US government will use this to their advantage.

I do think it is important though that the US finds some other way of bringing the rest of the world up to speed economically.

Originally posted by Nonsuch:
<STRONG>

And where exactly does the "education" part come in?

Dogzilla posted an articulate, well-informed discussion of how ingrained the tensions between Palestine and Israel are, with a great deal of historical background; you respond with smug, patronizing generalizations.

If Dogzilla is wrong, post and say why. What's in these great "balanced" books you read that are apparently so untainted with pro-Jewish propaganda? Because right now Dogzilla has a lot more credibility than you.

Best wishes to everyone in this terrible time.</STRONG>

My mistake, during posting and re-quoting my comments got mixed in with Dogzillas. Please re-read and notice any lines starting with --, those signify my comments.

[sordid]

Originally posted by Drizzt:
<STRONG>Yeah.. I've seen this kind of propaganda in my Psychology classes (yes I'm still student.. and I'm in computer science.. and yes we had a planned class of Psychology )

These event reminds me of System Of A Down claims..

They want the Armenian Genocide to be accepted by the USA and other countries... and until now they failed. Millions died under the wrath of Turcs.. and nobody sees that as a historic fact. They claim the Turcs financed propaganda againts this.

Than.. yesterday.. probably 55 000 people died or got badly hurt. It's bad, real bad, but it is really shown as the worst event on earth since WWII (almost). Than.. I remmeber seeing on the TV that the Irakies (I believe) were really sorry for what hapenned, but that it was hapenning everyday there.

Is it really that worse? Or is it just worst because it was the USA?

Anyways....

As I said to some of my friends..

&lt;tender souls please do not read&gt;

They took real good and strategic targets, but they should have done their attacks at night, when there was nobody in the buildings.

I understand what the terrorists want to claim by their acts, I also comdamn the use of violence to promote it, but I mostly condamn to lost of innocent lives to show it.

Anyways.. time to sleep now </STRONG>

I'm really not talking about paid propaganda, I'm talking more about how they act and how things are co-ordinated within the government so that the media has something interesting to talk about while conveying the right message.

Originally posted by JB72:
[QB]
In the minds of the one we call cowards, we are the terrorists. We are the devils who took their lands, who put our nose were it did'nt belong and everything. Most of the people there would rather kill an american than eat. Why?QB]

It doesn't matter anymore. Whatever their complaints against the US, be them legitimate or not, the time of talking is over for good. Not too long ago, most americans were sitting on the fence with the whole Israel/Palistine thing -- not any more. I'm sorry, but I am afraid the only reaction possible now is war. That is too bad, I don't want to fight in a war, I don't want more people to die, but we are left with no choice. These terrorists must be irradicated at all costs. The world is about to see just how pissed the US can get. There will be blood.

Originally posted by &lt;Bill Crates&gt;:
<STRONG>I find it understandable that the Palestinians while throwing mostly rocks and sticks and fired at by tanks, attack helicopter gunships, and machine guns, have been hardened and are hateful towards Israel and the US...</STRONG>

On the other hand, Palestinians use bombs to kill innocent people on busses, in markets, in coffee shops... they just kill anyone anywhere. Israel uses conventional weapons to stategically kill the specific Palestinians responsible for these attacks.

I agree that Israel is being too stubborn and is treating the Palestinians very badly. This used to be an issue the US could midigate without taking sides on, Not anymore. The terrorists have destroyed their chances for a peaceful solution.

[Drizzt]

War is A solution, not THE solution.

It's not a country that the USA will be chasing, it's a gang of terrorists.

Do you realize that?

It means, anywhere the US (or NATO for that matter) hit, people won't be happy!

I think the palestinians understood that.. (Ben Ladin is there right?). They are talking about extrading him.

Change of subject , propaganda thing :

Yes, my exemple was paid propaganda, also unpaid propaganda (the US has had use of it for so long...). Still.. propaganda is propaganda... and it works.

[Brendonshire]

Arizona Republican Sen. John McCain (news - bio - voting record) described the national mood as one of ``controlled fury.'' Congressional leaders agreed to a $20 billion recovery package in response to a request from the White House.

Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites), saying it was time to build a global coalition against ``terrorist'' attacks, said a U.S. response would surpass a single reprisal raid. Defense officials stressed the culprits would be punished.

``We have a very large hammer that can be brought to bear in a number of ways at any time,'' one defense official told Reuters. ``That's not a threat, it's a fact.''


The Bear AWAKENS...

[electroJerm]

Isn't this a computer related website?

I am VERY VERY dissapointed.

As an American, I am shocked and disturbed by what happened. As a Jewish-American (whose grandparents immigrated to the USA from Russia back when the Czars were killing the Jews), I so clearly see the issues that have plagued the Middle East and that have contributed to this bombing. And as a Jewish-American MacNN reader, I am dissapointed in some of what I read here.

There was an attack by terrorists on the economic and military capitals of the United States on Tuesday. This fact is undebatable. Possibly thousands of people were killed. This fact is undebatable. These were human people. People of all races and ethnicities likely lost their lives on Tuesday. As I began reading the comments on MacNN's post about the tradgedy, I saw that my post was joined by many heartfelt and sypathatic outpourings of condolences. As I continued reading though, I saw arguments being passed back in forth, gaining momentum over time, regarding the Palestinians vs. the Israeli's. They looked something like this (choose one of the words in brackets):

"The attack was caused because of the continued agression by the [Arabs, Israelis]. For thousands of years, the [Arabs, Israelis] have been persecuted." --- followed by more points of view and arguments over whether "the [Arabs, Israelis] are more [violent, at fault, innocent, victimized, etc]" --- and always ending with --- "Stop reading your pro [Arab, Israeli] books and learn the [truth, facts, propaganda I believe]. And by the way [name of MacNN user who makes an earlier post] get a(n) [education, life, clue]. You are a(n) [idiot, bigot, &lt;expletive deleted&gt;, etc].

My best friend, a Muslim from Pakistan, and I were chatting on AIM last night. We are both equally disgusted that such an event like Tuesday's tragedy would occur, but we are even more irritated that people, at a time like this, would resort to pointing fingers at eachother. Leave politics out of this disaster.

Instead, let us do all that we can to help the victims. Go out and give blood. Donate money. Post your condolences on sites like MacNN. At the very least, refrain from using this as a chance to discuss your political or religious views. If you have opinions of that nature, make a website. Or better yet, put them aside. I shouldn't have to come to MacNN and be offended by people's views against my ethnicity, nor should people of my own ethnicity be able to make similar comments against another (in this case, the Arabs or Palestineans).

I would hope that some of the MacNN administrators would agree that these forums (nor the comments on news postings) are not places of political or religious debate. I would hope that the administrators would do something to end this - such as closing this and any other threads where sympathy is turned into angered debate and argument.

I suppose many will flame me or disagree with me, but I state this as a final disclaimer: I am an American... one with a respect for life and tranquility equal to any other, with sympathy and sorrow for the victims in this tragedy. That's all.

[dfiler]

First of all, let me state that I am an American. This is important because the following comments are rather harsh on my own country.

While I am against violence and killing, I am not convinced that these attacks won't be benneficial to the planet. America, as many foreigners are quick to point out, too often bullies other countries and cultures inorder to get its way. While, we've managed to do good in many places, our government has been responsible for far too many acts that are at least unjust and perhaps even evil.

Our hundreds of millions of dollars used to milarize one part of Columbia have resulted in many thousands of deaths. Our blundering influence in the Middle East and numerous other regions has resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths and ruined lives. We definately need to take a step back and think harder about how we interact with the rest of the planet.

This terrorist attack will probably result in swift and violent reaction. I feel that this is justified. However, the US will probably become more weary of our imperialistic activities in the future. Maybe now we'll realize just how important the cultural freedom of other countries is. Maybe we will no longer expect everyone to conform to our moral values and cultural norms.

I simply wish it hadn't taken an act of terrorism to raise the bar for when we muck with other peoples' lives. Death is horrible both for those experiencing it and for the families living with its aftermath. Thus, I hope that the thousands of lives lost in the US, will serve to actually save lives. How many Arabs and/or Muslims have we killed so far? Sadly enough, I think the score is about even now...

[dogzilla]

Originally posted by &lt;Bill Crates&gt;:

I'll address individual weaknesses in your argument below, but overall, let me point these things out:

- You are (intentionally or not) ignoring the question of the long history of terrorism in the Middle East. I brought this up specifically to counter your assertion that "95% of the reason for this senseless violence is caused by the absolutely horrendous behavior of the Israelis towards the Palestinians". If you are not claiming (as you seem to be) that terrorism is caused and created by the actions of the Israeli state, then you need to clarify the above sentence, or retract, but you cannot ignore it.

- You claim that the Middle Eastern terrorists are justified in their use of violence against civilians. But you also claim that "These kinds of justifications will only maintain the status quo". Are you implying that it is OK for the terrorists to use these activities, but not for the American and Israeli states? Why? Or do we agree that those who initiate violence against the unarmed are abhorrent and enemies of humanity?

- You try to tie this whole thing in to the Israeli state. As far as I can see, the terrorist group(s) who are primary candidates for having perpetrated this latest attack are only interested in US support for Israel in purely tertiary terms. Their primary goal is to have the permanent military presence in Saudi Arabia removed. Secondarily, they want retribution for the 1998 cruise missile attack against (alleged) terrorist training camps in Afghanistan. Unfortunately, they seem to think that the only way to achieve this is by killing innocent people.

On to the individual items:

<STRONG>-- Israel was created in 1948 unilaterally and replaced a region already known as Palestine without the permission of the Palestinians. In effect they were displaced (similar to American colonialists taking land from the native Indians).. </STRONG>

<STRONG>
-- What's funny here is that the Middle East includes Israel/Palestine. Since Israeli founders claimed (prior to 1948) beginning in modern times with Theodore Herzl in 1897 with his writing of "The Jewish State" that the area now known as Israel was promised to them by God and that it is their "right" to have a state in this area they have been on the not-so-popular list with their Arab neighbors. The Arabs remember that Palestine was the name of the territory and that it was basically stolen overnight in 1948 by the Jews. Now, if we accept that the territory now known as Israel was once, thousands of years ago, a Jewish state and that because of that, it should be again we need to all move out of the US and return it to the Iroquois/Commanches/Sioux etc... Who knows who really has claim to France, Germany and the rest of Europe. What should the cutoff date be?</STRONG>

I note that you are careful to call it "the area known as Palestine". This is correct, as there has never been a "Palestinian state". "The area known as Palestine" was rfulede by various small empires until about 1500, when it became part of the Ottoman empire for 300 years. Then it became a British protectorate. Then after WWII the British ceded the area known as Palestine to the UN to be divided into two states, one Jewish and one Arab, in recognition of the fact that a significant Jewish presence already existed in the area. Violence erupted on the Arab side and has continued since. It was not "stolen overnight by the Jews" - you are misinformed or deliberately twisting the facts.

<STRONG>Why have the Jews been persecuted so often throughout history? Well, I'm sure its totally unfounded, and that they tend to live in harmony with their neighbors and don't harbor any sort of superiority complexes...</STRONG>

You are treading on very thin ice here, my friend. Be careful - your racism/anti-semitism is showing.

<STRONG>-- I will refrain from calling you names. See my paragraph above for info.</STRONG>

Fine. And I apologize for obliquely and indirectly offending your sensisbilities by calling your thinking names. But I note you utterly failed to address the thrust of the paragraph you were responding to. I'll post it again (sans insult to your thinking):

What about the terrorist attacks against the British before Israel was even formed? Or the violent attacks against immigrant Jews in Palestine as far back as 1845? Or against the Ottoman empire before that? Senseless violence simply seems to be the preferred method of conflict resolution for a small but significant minority in the Middle East.

Please respond - I am interested to hear what you have to say about what is, after all, the core of my post. I've already read your concerns about peripheral issues.

<STRONG>-- If I thought I could convince you I would have the secret to Middle East peace. I don't claim to be a miracle worker and won't try to convince you but state the facts: Israel is surrounded by "enemies" because they feel that Israel is not a legitimate state and not created legitimately.</STRONG>

OK, so you utterly lack any answer or suggestion, but you claim the right to defend the actions of one group over another. How does this makes any sense at all?

<STRONG>In the early 1900's the palestinian jewish population lived in harmony. After the mass exodus in WW I and especially WW II of jews to the territory the population mix was massively destablized with alot more Jews arriving then existing Palestinians and it resulted in a Jewish "takeover" of Palestine.</STRONG>

The jewish and arab populations of Ottoman and British Palestine most certainly *did not* live in anything even close to harmony. There were constant attacks back and forth almost from the day the first Jews arrived in the mid-1800's. And (as I beleive you know) the people we call Palestinians had no more claim to the land they were on (which was part of the Ottoman Empire) than the Jews did (since that was where the Kingdom of Israel was originally located).

There was no Jewish "takeover". At the end of WWII, there were simply two populations living in the area, both with equally (in)valid claims to the land. The UN split the land into two sections, an Arab and Jewish sections. The Arab sections, along with all its neighbors, promptly attacked the Jewish sections and tried to eradicate it. Almost as promptly, the Jewish section completely obliterated the massed military attack and began expanding its borders to create buffer "security zones" to protect themselves from future attacks. After a number of such attacks (and subsequent Arab losses), the Arab section effectively ceased to exist, as it had been completely conquered by the Jewish section. Which brings us to the current Israeli occupation of the Palestinian homeland, which, it can be argued, would not be occupied if the Palestinians and all their Arab neighbors hadn't attacked Israel in the first place, or been even moderately skilled at defending their homeland (with a massively superior force of modern weapons, I should add) in the second place.

Palestinians are currently fighting Israelis with sticks and bottles (and, oh yeah, rockets and mortars and artillery) because their erstwhile brothers-in-arms who have tanks and gunships and jet fighters have abandoned them as a lost cause.

Which brings up my final question: why aren't the Palestinians as (or more) angry with their Arab neighbors for abandoning them in their time of need than they are with the Israelis? Why don't they set off bombs in Cairo's pizza parlors, or Jordanian discos, or Saudi weddings?

[xi_hyperon]

To comments regarding the ongoing discussions here:

1) Dogzilla, I have to say thank you for calling bullsh*t on the "objective" statements and views of bill crates. I found them a bit on the inflammatory side to say the least. I don't disagree with the right for people to post their own views, but to give an obviously biased and misinformed view, wrapped in condescention as was bill's really sticks in my craw.

2) This will not be the be-all, end-all event, regardless of the response of the U.S. Those thinking it will do not realize the breadth and depth of the underlying struggle between political, religious and cultural spheres that is happening here. No finger pointing-- just a simple point here: there are those who will not rest until their enemies are gone, and unforturnately some of the most dedicated of these people have the power to take actions which further this goal. Good times or bad, during conflicts or flourishing peace agreements, their will be tragedy because of this.

This is what I truly believe-- and it will get worse. There will likely be more sophisticated attacks on the infrastructures of nations, using weapons and methods of delivery which will be increasingly hard to guard against. Again, I don't want to sound alarmist, but I think this is reality. The result is that we all have to change our way of thinking... not just through policy but individual attitudes and actions as well.

3) As for whether this subject should be allowed in the forum, that's up to the moderators. However it's only natural that everyone has this on their mind. Did all of us think much about OS X over the last couple of days? I know I didn't. We are all human and someone not touched by this emotionally is probably not a very easy person to find at the moment.

The people who suffered such a terrible end, and those who continue to suffer as a result where most hearts are now.

&lt;edited for early morning, pre-coffee misspelling&gt;

[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: xi_hyperon ]

[theolein]

I come from South Africa origionally and know both sides of a conflict like that in the middle east. I left because of that conflict. I abhor racism. I also understand that living in a country like Israel is NOT a clear cut issue it may seem to us outside. The Israelis may not be very compromising but I know from my own experience that when you live in a country that has an almost continual history of armed conflict and political problems only getting solved by violence and war, it is almost impossible o be impartial or moderate.

I think that asking George Bush to show mercy to the organizers of the attack is very noble but it is the wrong time and probably only inflames the wounds of the hurt adn grieving more.
Drizzt: C'est peut etre pas le temp maintenant d'anayser le probleme dans un tel maniere....Je sais pas

[JB72]

Go Dogzilla!

The fact is that the Arab states had their chance to destroy a fledgling Israel years ago. After Six Days of being bent over and man handled by IDF, they couldn't sign peace agreements fast enough (I wonder if that's where Iraqi soldiers first learned how to surrender to reporters?)

Personally, like most Americans (at least those w/ political and ethnic neatrality towards the Middle East) I watched the daily troubles over there and just wished and prayed that both sides would be able to find some peace and common ground. Yesturday I watched Palestinians celebrate the killing of thousands of innocent Americans. Those who think that these attacks will help further the US from Middle Eastern affairs are, to say the least, very mistaken.

I just hope they have tight security for MYSF . OS X is, after all, always neutral.

[OverclockedHomoSapien]

I wouldn't worry about W being president. Of course he doesn't know what he's doing, but his handlers are well experienced in making war. Powel will probably be running the show with respect to the US response to this tragedy, and he knows what he's doing.

It's actually not bad...I would say that the only thing I trust this administration with is WAR. Not domestic policy, not foreign policy, surely not diplomacy, but when it comes to fighting, these characters are all full of hate. They're angry and ready.

Unfortunately W hasn't made any comments at all suggesting to me that he has any clue about the complexity of the mid-east situation. Calling them "evil" and quoting the bible doesn't exactly demonstrate a nuanced understanding of WHY the US is hated with such vehemence in parts of the mid east. I really wish we had a leader that was capable not only of war, but of understanding the root causes of this attack. Because in the end, any resolution to this terrorist act will require a profound understanding of what fuels mid east hatred of the USA .

For our enemies, this is already a holy war, a "Jihad". And now, W has started our response by thumping the bible, as if we are going to respond with our own "holy" war. I fear that invoking the bible in response to this tragedy will only fuel anti-Arab racism, anti-muslim prejudice, and a heavy handed and crass response, when instead we need to respond deftly and with precision.

I hope W proves me wrong and rises to a new level of intellectual sophistication.

[mugwump]

Countries with democratic elections have never gone to war against each other. It's a good thing that the world is moving in that direction.

Religious fanatics are angry that the culture of the West is making inroads into the pure religious order. But disregard for human life is absolutely unacceptible. Using innocent people to kill other innocent people cannot be acceptible.

Hating evil, hating terrorism does not lead to peace. These attackers and their supporters harm themselves completely. Continued attacks of innocent people only further isolate these fanatics from the rest of the world.

But clearly, the largest scale terrorist attack cannot occur with impunity, and strong reaction must follow.

Western civilization is home to all religions and strives for complete religious tolerance. The American people and the Islamic people have no conflict with each other, and currently are in full support of each other.

All this debate is fine but also follows many typical politically correct misconceptions. Religion, backward thinking, brainwashing are to blame. Islam practises violence against non-believers. Christianity used to be the same. When the Church was strong WE lived in a Taliban-like society. Europe was worse than Saudi Arabia.

The media doesn't want to touch the basic facts. It says that the terrorists are misinterpreting Islam. They are not. Islam spread to North Africa, Europe and India using violent means.

Let me finish with some quotes from the Koran and Hadith and then I suggest that we all realize this is ideological conflict. Jews and Hindus had to put up with this for centuries. Just because it is new for New Yorkers to experience the terror of blind belief doesn't mean that there is anything new to this. If you have to deal with people who believe that God is sending books and that angels are speaking to people, then the media must be used to ridicule such backward thinking until they are changed and modernised. That's much better than bombing.

Quran:

[4.56] (As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall
make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We
will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement;
surely Allah is Mighty, Wise."

[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day,
nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor
follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book,
until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in
a state of subjection.

[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near
to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with
those who guard (against evil).

[4.74] Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this
world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah,
then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty
reward.

[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore
make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those
who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every
fingertip of them.

[9:5] But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the
Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in
wait for them in every stratagem l.

[4:34] Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has
preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have
expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient,
guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be
rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them.


Sahih Muslim
Book 019, Number 4366:
It has been narrated by 'Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger
of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: I will expel the Jews and
Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim.

Abu Dawud
Book 11, Number 2142:
Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A man will not be asked as to why
he beat his wife.

Sahih Muslim
The Book of Faith (Kitab Al-Iman)
Book 001, Number 0033:
It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the
Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people
till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the
messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they
do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf
except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.

Quran:
[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for
friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes
them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not
guide the unjust people.

[xi_hyperon]

Originally posted by &lt;Aron&gt;:
<STRONG>All this debate is fine but also follows many typical politically correct misconceptions. Religion, backward thinking, brainwashing are to blame. Islam practises violence against non-believers. </STRONG>

I think this thread needs to stop. We are now reduced here to generalizations of entire people and religions. I am not Muslim, but I do know, through friends who are Muslim (and also by using my brain), that this is not true.

How, in the 21st century can people feel justified to stereotype like this? *Every* group has its fringe elements, and not just religious groups. And by your argument, other religions should also be practicing violence based on their books as well. Do you think there is no violence in the Bible??? I guess I should be sacrificing lambs in my local temple too. The more I think about the ridiculous statements you just made, the angrier I get. Ugh, this has become a dirty, ugly thread and it should be locked or at minimum thrown into the lounge. I will not comment any further because I refuse to have a dialogue with someone so ignorant.

[AronMac]

I've got far more Muslim friends than anyone here. 75% of my friends are Muslim. I don't condemn them because they are not following their religions to the dot. Some drink, some eat pork. Many of them don't pray. They are Afghanis, Pakistanis, Iraqis and Kurdish. We work together but we don't talk about religion. BUT the media must tackle the ideological problems. I've quoted the Koran. Go to islam.org and check the alphabetical index and look what it says about jihad or about Jews. What do you expect from a book written 1400 years ago? Modern liberal standards? Freedom to be agnostic or atheist? Freedom at all?
http://islamicity.com/mosque/TOPICI.HTM

The solution I suggest, tackling ideology, is far better than bombing the middle east. There is no other solution against terrorism which can kill 20,000 people within 15 minutes (the third highest murder rate in history after the bombing of Japan). Putting Bin Ladin in prison isn't going to end anything because there is still the situations elsewhere.

Why quote the violence in the Bible? I don't follow any religious texts, my morals are impeccable without religion, and who said we live in a theocracy? Of course the Bible is full of violence and atrocity. It's 2000+ years old. Hardly anyone follows it. The Koran is 1400 years old. Far more people follow it and there are theocracies in Iran, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia.

[sniffer]

This "war" that mr. Bush is talking about, is in fact a war against a organisation, a way of thinking. A few leaders around the world, and some in media, outside USA, is a bit concerned right now that USA might act in a "irrational" way (If I can use that word). Making it self as a superior judge above the international community, nato, and the rest of the world. If USAs respons will result in killing to many inocent people, and If the USA respons in the name of destruction, rather than international democratic justice, they are no better than the terrorists. And if that happens, if you ask me, the terrorists has won.
I cross my fingers for a act that includes every contry that's now supporting USA. This has to be handled in a civilisated democratic justified way, hopefully.
The spiral of violence is sure easyer to start then end.

Sorry.. My english is'nt really the best...

I feel I must recant some of what I said earlier. I was and am still hopping mad and searching for a release of my anger. I wish there was a country that we could blame, that we could destroy, but there isn't. The people we are fighting are the VAST minority of Arabs, the VAST minority of Muslims. Most Arabs are the same as people everywhere else in the world, they have jobs, they have children, they love peace.

States like Afghanistan have been resistant to cooperation with the US in the past. If they continue in this behavior now, then the US will likely declare a formal state of war and destroy them. But as it turns out, they are just as shocked as we are that something like this could happen, and they are also very scared that we will attack them, so they are cooperating like never before. I think the scale of this terrorist attack has shocked EVERY country. These terrorists might not have any safe place to hide in the near future.

First of all can I put on record my deep sorrow at the scenes from the US over the past few days.

Now we hear the USA is to wage war on all states that support terrorism.
Are they going to start with the country that trained, resourced and armed Bin Laden in the first place when he was fighting the Russians in Afghanistan?

Or the country that for decades financed the IRA's actions in England?

Or perhaps the country that armed Sadam Hussein during the Iran/Iraq war?

Or the country that used napalm against villages in south east Asia?

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

How many other future 'Bin Ladens' is the CIA training in different parts of the world, who in 10 years time will slip the leash and turn on the West?

If the US is genuinly interested in making the world a safer place perhaps it should start by disbanding the CIA !

Hi,

I just wanted to express my satisfaction at the level-headed discussion going on in this thread. It is certainly not without its flaws, but compared to the incredible hysteria that is being unleashed on some other forums, this is rational thought embodied.

At the end though, I am siding with the very wise words of electroJerm, when he said:

Isn't this a computer related website?
I am VERY VERY dissapointed.

As an American, I am shocked and disturbed by what happened. As a Jewish-American (whose grandparents immigrated to the USA from Russia back when the Czars were killing the Jews), I so clearly see the issues that have plagued the Middle East and that have contributed to this bombing. And as a Jewish-American MacNN reader, I am dissapointed in some of what I read here.

There was an attack by terrorists on the economic and military capitals of the United States on Tuesday. This fact is undebatable. Possibly thousands of people were killed. This fact is undebatable. These were human people. People of all races and ethnicities likely lost their lives on Tuesday. As I began reading the comments on MacNN's post about the tradgedy, I saw that my post was joined by many heartfelt and sypathatic outpourings of condolences. As I continued reading though, I saw arguments being passed back in forth, gaining momentum over time, regarding the Palestinians vs. the Israeli's. They looked something like this (choose one of the words in brackets):

"The attack was caused because of the continued agression by the [Arabs, Israelis]. For thousands of years, the [Arabs, Israelis] have been persecuted." --- followed by more points of view and arguments over whether "the [Arabs, Israelis] are more [violent, at fault, innocent, victimized, etc]" --- and always ending with --- "Stop reading your pro [Arab, Israeli] books and learn the [truth, facts, propaganda I believe]. And by the way [name of MacNN user who makes an earlier post] get a(n) [education, life, clue]. You are a(n) [idiot, bigot, &lt;expletive deleted&gt;, etc].

My best friend, a Muslim from Pakistan, and I were chatting on AIM last night. We are both equally disgusted that such an event like Tuesday's tragedy would occur, but we are even more irritated that people, at a time like this, would resort to pointing fingers at eachother. Leave politics out of this disaster.

Instead, let us do all that we can to help the victims. Go out and give blood. Donate money. Post your condolences on sites like MacNN. At the very least, refrain from using this as a chance to discuss your political or religious views. If you have opinions of that nature, make a website. Or better yet, put them aside. I shouldn't have to come to MacNN and be offended by people's views against my ethnicity, nor should people of my own ethnicity be able to make similar comments against another (in this case, the Arabs or Palestineans).

I would hope that some of the MacNN administrators would agree that these forums (nor the comments on news postings) are not places of political or religious debate. I would hope that the administrators would do something to end this - such as closing this and any other threads where sympathy is turned into angered debate and argument.

I suppose many will flame me or disagree with me, but I state this as a final disclaimer: I am an American... one with a respect for life and tranquility equal to any other, with sympathy and sorrow for the victims in this tragedy. That's all.

[Drizzt]

Night all...

Here is something I just found, I thought it would be nice if everyone would go out and read it. Specially those waging for a violent response to the terrorism.

Click Here

I'll be comming back to read comments on this.

Drizzt

[xi_hyperon]

Originally posted by &lt;MuslimArabPeaceLover&gt;:
<STRONG>Hi,
I suppose many will flame me or disagree with me, but I state this as a final disclaimer: I am an American... one with a respect for life and tranquility equal to any other, with sympathy and sorrow for the victims in this tragedy. That's all.

</STRONG>

No, you are right. After thinking about the posts and arguments which occurred here yesterday, I was sorry that the tragedy at hand got lost underneath. Those who post inflammatory or accusatory comments don't deserve the importance they got yesterday, because it takes away our focus from the loss at hand.

To Drizzt:
Thank you for putting this into perspective. All I can think is that God must be shaking his head often.

[JB72]

Originally posted by Drizzt:
<STRONG>Night all...

Here is something I just found, I thought it would be nice if everyone would go out and read it. Specially those waging for a violent response to the terrorism</STRONG>

Nice link. Please forward it to the terrorists and hopefully they will stop murdering people.