[Northof49]

I got my first Mac about two months ago (A iBook G3 366) after 6 years of using nothing but PCs. I must confess that I found MacOS to be a little strange at first (I still try to use Ctrl-C to copy items)

But once I got use to it and found it to be more stable and nicely intergrated. So much that I bought a Cube 450 and have ordered a new G4 867. (I can hardly wait to burn my first DVD!) I really like OS X as it is a truly amazing OS. In fact a few of my friends are thinking of switching to Mac simply because of the potential that OS X has.

But as I read some of these posts complaining about the how slow the G4 is or about how much they hate OS X, it just makes me laugh. Firstly I have never heard someone in a computer store say "I was going to buy an Power Mac, but I decided to buy PC because it is faster" You buy an Intel or AMD for that reason. You buy an Apple because of what you believe it offers over the Wintel platform. Plus if you have ever bought a PC, you would know that most-of-the-shelf PCs contain a few high-end parts and a hodge-podge of cheap, often poorly tested components. Consider how many newer technologies that Apple supports natively. New PC have PS/2, serial and parallel ports (All technologies over 5 years old) Don't even get me started about "DLL Hell and the windows registry".

As for all those "But program x is faster on an P4". Hey that is mostly the fault of the software maker. I can write a program that would make a P4-2 GHz look like a 486-66, but that would not mean it was.

And all you " Apple should have stayed with Mac OS 9.x", it seems ironic that the same people who want Apple to be innovative, don't want it to change .

I switched sides because my Mac make my PS like a has-been. My buddies are so envious when they saw the specs for my new G4 867 and how great OS X works. (Now we all know it is alittle slow, but that is how software is made. It is about putting out a product and then imaking improvements. There is nothing like real-world testing to show you where the flaws are.)

A number of my friends are think of buying a Mac beacause they see what it is and can do, not because of meanless benchmarks. Mark Twain once said "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies and statistics"

[PropFodder]

Yea Verily ! Northof49 says it for me too--I've used PC's at work long enough to know what an admin nightmare they present. I'm pumping 333Mhz out of a Rev B iMac but thats definitely flying higher than a Gig-Grinding PC!! The Mac OS is more elegant, uncluttered, sanely integrated and I can accomplish more work because of that...it's VALUE!! Why would I buy a PC to replace it when QuickSilver would accellerate an already superior OS .

[Mr. Blur]

I concur. I earn my wages supporting a large Windoze network..NT servers, W9x & NT clients (and my iBook!).....I would never buy a M$ OS for myself - I get enough of that all day...when I get home I just want something that works.

[funkboy]

Well said Northof49! Great to hear a convert story such as yours.
It also depresses me when people attack the Mac for no good reason. Seeing as you (and Mr. Blur) have used Windows a lot and find superiority in the Mac, I'm sure many, many Windows users would also experience this same difference - but many are too biased to even try it.
I must admit, the gaming situation is not what it could be on the Mac - we still wait months before we get the latest PC games, and we only really get the really big games. This can be a big sticking point for people who use their computers to play games - but heck, if I want to play video games, I'll get a Nintendo or PlayStation.
Thanks for your opinion... it's a good one in mine

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by Northof49:
<STRONG>But as I read some of these posts complaining about the how slow the G4 is or about how much they hate OS X, it just makes me laugh. Firstly I have never heard someone in a computer store say "I was going to buy an Power Mac, but I decided to buy PC because it is faster" You buy an Intel or AMD for that reason. You buy an Apple because of what you believe it offers over the Wintel platform. Plus if you have ever bought a PC, you would know that most-of-the-shelf PCs contain a few high-end parts and a hodge-podge of cheap, often poorly tested components. Consider how many newer technologies that Apple supports natively. New PC have PS/2, serial and parallel ports (All technologies over 5 years old) Don't even get me started about "DLL Hell and the windows registry". </STRONG>

Yeah, thats right - you get a PC for that reason. They ARE faster.

<STRONG>

As for all those "But program x is faster on an P4". Hey that is mostly the fault of the software maker. I can write a program that would make a P4-2 GHz look like a 486-66, but that would not mean it was. </STRONG>

So? Casting blame doesn't help at all!
"Hey, if you wrote it better, it'd be faster!"
That doesn't matter at ALL now does it? The simple fact is one is faster than the other.

<STRONG>

And all you " Apple should have stayed with Mac OS 9.x", it seems ironic that the same people who want Apple to be innovative, don't want it to change . </STRONG>

They don't want Apple to innovate
Innovation is seen as a good thing by only some.

<STRONG>

I switched sides because my Mac make my PS like a has-been. My buddies are so envious when they saw the specs for my new G4 867 and how great OS X works. (Now we all know it is alittle slow, but that is how software is made. It is about putting out a product and then imaking improvements. There is nothing like real-world testing to show you where the flaws are.)</STRONG>

WHY would your buddies be envious?
"Wow! 867MHz G4! That makes my 1700MHz Pentium 4 and Jimmy's Dual 1400MHz Athlon look pathetic!! And look at all those PCI slots... wow! I wish I had only 5..."

Don't make excuses for OSX's pathetic speed. It is so bad that it cannot be used professionally right now - not to mention the lack of apps.
Software is made that way, slow then fast... right... it should be DECENT before it is released.

<STRONG>

A number of my friends are think of buying a Mac beacause they see what it is and can do, not because of meanless benchmarks. Mark Twain once said "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies and statistics"</STRONG>

Good for them, its a big step from the Windows world to the Mac world - one most people dislike.
What is it that's luring them? The complete lack of apps?
The amazingly sluggish speed? The pweety colours?

*sigh*

Welcome to Macintosh, and welcome to MacNN

[Scotttheking]

Cipher, no scaring off the new people now.

Welcome.

Cipher, the fastest AthlonMP is 1200mhz, not 1400.

chears

alex

[Mr. Blur]

So Mr. Cipher.....why *do* you use a Mac? I rarely see any positive posts from you....every post seems to take shots at everything that is wrong with Apple. How about telling us what you like about the platform?

This isn't flame bait....I'm just curious.

[Northof49]

Ouch Cipher13, that kind of stung

I understand when you are coming from. But let me give a few counterpoints.

For the last year ago I was shopping for a new PC and I can tell you it was hard. Every week it seemed there was a new Duron, Celeron, P3,P4 or Athlon coming out. (Not that I would want a Duron or Celeron ) Each of these was connected to some kind of motherboard made by god-know-who filled with parts from whoever was the cheapest-at-the-moment supplier. Unless you are willing to custom build it and spend big bucks, you could end up with a bomb waiting to blow up.

I have used a PC by almost every major manufacturer out there and I can tell you that the PC world is a wacky world. Image having half of the computers in your office not being able to have a Win NT service pack applied, due to a problem with one of the cards that that manufacturer used. For some of us that is real life!

I guess my question to you is if a G4 2 Ghz came up in November, would everyone start to use a Mac?

I think you nailed the real problem on the head. It is the lack of quality SOFTWARE that is the real problem. Companies invest money in applications that have the largest market, not the fastest processors.
OS X is the begining of that. I realize it is slow, but the new revision that is coming out next month addresses some of these performance issues. When Windows 95 came up, it had also had a major revision that fixed many long standing bugs. It was called Windows 98. We had to pay about $100 CDN for it.

I think what needs to be done here is to get more people using Macs and demand good software for it. Double the market share and Motorola will get its act together. Then it is a whole new game....

Don't worry for Cipher is but a child who has yet to forge his own identity. He must rely on the internet to feed his need for daily human interaction as is evidenced by his post total. Please, if you're bitter about life dealing you a bad hand, don't come here and wax sarcastic to everybody. Your impetuous nature is of no help to anybody. All I'm saying is try and not use these boards as a form of catharsis. If all the popular kids at school teased you more than usual today, you don't have to take it out on us.

"Everybody must get stoned"--Bob Dylan

[phobos]

And here it comes...
First of all I don't like Pc's.But some things have to be told.I like mac's
very much but let's face it.Before osX people said on these forums.You buy a mac bacause of the os(OS9).Well it's a nice os but
under the hood it's just a compilation of little programs.No preemptive multitasking no memory protection no anything.Not to mention all the problems when the new updates come.That was before X.Now X is really good after the 10.1 update hopefully.So why do you buy a mac.For the speedy graphics card?No.For the fast processor?Hell no.For the programs that aren't ported on the PC and are really good.NO that was many years ago.So why do you buy yourmac?The only reason is that you don't like pc's.You just don't like them.THAT'S THE ONLY REASON.And that's the only reason I'm using a mac.And the fact that all the apps I use (Photoshop Illustrator and the miserable Quark )are not faster on PC's with the same specks.If you also use your RAM disk as a scratch disk then voila.It's a great machine.But you still have to pay at least 800$ more for the mac.The only thing I'm thinking of bying a PC is for 3d which I use a lot.See what I mean?? And let's cut the crap about cheap parts.Just because apple is making a computer doesn't mean that they don't also use cheap parts.
"Companies invest money in applications that have the largest market, not the fastest processors."
WHAAAT???So you say that when Maya comes out for the mac that all the companies will dump their superfast PC's and buy a mac even though the program will be slower.People always want to make things faster.Especially in the 3d market.If they don't do it faster they won't have clients.
I'm sorry if I'm being rude here.I don't want to. I don't want to buy a Pc I
just want to see a better Mac.You HAVE TO admit that there are weak points.

I took some time to reread my post.I sound like a PC man or a dissapointed mac user.This isn't true.I'm just trying to make you see the truth and not hide from it.Ok that's it.Cheers to you all and have a nice day.

[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: phobos ]

[slipjack]

Aw, don't pick on Cipher.. I think the boards do better with his 'grumpy old man' posts. There are many others with less knowledge and much less tact. I, for one, mostly enjoy reading the push and shove we get here.

Peace.

[Scrod]

What is this? Someone decides to buy a Mac and other Mac users CRITICIZE HIS DECISION? Cipher, that's pretty pathetic. If you want to criticize Apple's market share in the future you'd better shape yourself up first.

[mugwump]

Lack of qualtiy apps on the mac platform? WTF? I'm not one to sing praise blindly, but come on now!

iMovie, iDVD, iTunes, Final Cut Pro, DVD Studio Pro, Appleworks......some of the greatest programs developed are for Apple only. Most of the rest of computer apps run perfect with Apple. Now, when's iPhoto going to come out?

[Nimisys]

Originally posted by &lt;Dual Athlon&gt;:
<STRONG>Cipher, the fastest AthlonMP is 1200mhz, not 1400.

chears

alex</STRONG>

maybe for you... but for anyone with skills it is 1400+ and running very very cold... like it should.

[AlanApple]

I don't get it. What are home users needing machines with monstrous speeds for anyway. People have been brained washed into thinking that if they don't have the fastest machine going their digital world will somehow collapse. I have a G4 400 and it absolutely rips. I use it for word processing, playing Tommb Raider and Quake Arena, surfing the net and creating my web page and I have no complaints. It blisters through all these tasks with ease and there is no deterioration in game play. Sure I would like a dual 800 but if I was asked why do I need such a high spec. machine I would be stumped because at the end of the day I don't need it.

If you offered me a P4 1700 ghz I would tell you where to stick it. I would much rather have the best operating system going and my G4 400.

Once upon a time I was among the brain washed. My Dad has a P2 350 mhz and I kept telling him he needed to upgrade. Why he said. This antique was letting him word process, surf the net and play his golf game. Fair play to him.

Nimisys, Lets see what skills you need to OC a Thunder MB. You can't adjust the voltage or the bus speed(100 or 133)? NO. Can you unlock the clock mult on a AthlonMP? If so how would you change it?

Tyan makes the ony dual Ahtlon MB right now and they SUCK for oc. Yes you could put dual 1.4GHZ Tbirds in it but why? Dual 1.2 AthlonMP are faster, run cooler, have full SSE, and have hardware pre-fetch.

Cheers,

alex

[Nimisys]

there are ways of OCing a CPU without BIOS suport, in this case the pencil trick - manualy seting the multiplier there... voltage control can done be through motherboard rewiring, and i have heard some reports that the new socket plugins also work on this but it is unconfirmed.

Nimisys, Maybe I'll pop off the heatsink and grab a good old #2. . .


alex

[Scotttheking]

The Tyan is a server board.
You don't OC servers. Not a good idea.

Now, if this topic gets any more off, it is headed to the lounge.

Northof49, now that you have all of this processing power, why don't you join team macnn?
Visit us in our forum, which is at the bottom of the forums page.

[Cipher13]

What an amusing thread

Northof49 - sorry, I didn't mean to come on so strong; thats just the way I am I suppose

You are right though. The things that keep me with Apple are the software, as number one, and the fact that Apple puts the machines together, with standard components; there is one motherboard per PowerMac revision; not this one, and that one, and the other one. I like that, for me - because I don't need some motherboard with onboard Ultra320 SCSI and 4 AGP slots, and so forth.

Mr. Blur - see above. The software - Mac OS 9, and I'm SLOWLY starting to like OSX; but time will tell how that front progresses.

Allen - nice to meet you. New around here?

Scrod - I'll criticise whatever I think deserves criticism, okay?
If you wanna praise it, fine. If you wanna take up the argument, in a civil manner, fine. But don't criticise the critic - what use is that? And especially when its merely a "you dissing Apple? You better shape up!"... I mean, really, that doesn't even make sense...

Northof49, your reasonably new Mac purchase is one you will not regret. Hopefully Apple is gonna go great places in the next few years, and I hope you stick around for the ride... I just hope you all understand the best way to improve something is to criticise it...

[ 08-15-2001: Message edited by: Cipher13 ]

[iPad]

I am in the exact opposite situation, i built my PC weeks ago, and I have not regretted it one single minute. Throughout the last few weeks as well, i have only used my mac for perhaps a total of 5 minutes. So don't go off on how we don't understand, because I sure as hell know what it is like to use a PC. And it's a great experience, i was previously using 9.1 on my G3/400, it was responsive, but it would consistently crash throughout using CPU intensive programs. When i installed OS X, it ran incredibly slow, i did everything i could to make it run faster, i reformatted, bought more RAM (before hand to be prepared), it STILL runs slow. And that's the thing, Apple has basically ditched users of perhaps "older" comps with a fancy looksie OS that DOES run stable, but to the point where it's running so slow you cannot be productive in what ever you are doing. I understand 10.1 will help, but not enough, and i will surely not start using my mac if it becomes some 20% faster as right now, i am currently on my 1.35Ghz AMD Thunderbird/256MB PC2100 DDR RAM/45GB/Geforce 2 GTS, typing up this post, rendering an image in bryce 5, downloading a file, and listening to music, something which could NEVER be done with my mac.

As for your bad experiences, i can agree with that (however, from a different perspective), however, the fact you chose you buy your PC retail makes the whole difference. I on the otherhand, BUILT mine, sure, it took an hour or two to put everything together, but after that, it was smooth sailing. Not to mention the fact that it was INCREDIBLY cheap, my whole system including my 19" Samsung 955DF came to a cost of $1000. As for the fact that I d not have a warrenty, each part in my system has their own warrenty, in fact, i've already sent back my motherboard once because when i first got it, it was defective, guess what..got a working replacement within 3 days. Now, THAT is what i call service, whereas, when i first purchased my G3/400, it took Apple nearly a month to replace my motherboard.

For Application use, I think many of you don't realize that when you say the mac is more productive, you need to actually look at the apps for both PC and Mac. THEY ARE THE EXACT SAME INTERFACE excluding the menubar. So don't go bitching about how you can't be "creative" on a PC in Photoshop. In a situation such as this, i simply want to get my work done faster (i'm what you could call an enthusiast user, i will do a wide array of tasks, 3d modeling, photoshop, gaming, internet, benchmark apps - for bragging purposes ) For example, Bryce 5 is an app i commonly use every now and then, i cannot tell any major differences between the mac and PC version other than the menu bar which i have stated, this hardly is considered a dramatic change..but then when i render something, it will take my G3 nearly 2-3 times longer.

Now, i suppose comparing a G3 to a Thunderbird is not fair, but the fact is that my allocated budget was $1000, which would have only purchased a refurbished G4/400 + Studio Display. Whereas, this is my system specs for my PC:

1.2Ghz AMD Thunderbird @ 1.35
EPoX EP 8K7A
256MB PC2100 DDR RAM
45GB IBM Deskstar 75GXP
VisionTek Geforce 2 GTS
Phillips 8x/4x/32x + Sony 52x IDE + Zip 100 + Floppy (god damn, a floppy drive)
Some other good stuff

So, in conclusion, i agree from what a previous poster said, you only buy macs for the OS or the fact that you hate PC's. And i qualify for neither.

[ 08-15-2001: Message edited by: iPad ]