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ducasi · May 17, 2002, 08:54 AM

Did anyone else wonder why Apple is gonig to wait until "late summer" before releasing Jaquar, rather than at the MacWorld Expo?

You might argue "because they need the extra time to finish it", but is the real reason that Apple's agreement with Microsoft runs out after August?

Let's face it, IE sucks, and Mozilla/Chimera is much, much better. Apple would be wise to switch to some sort of Mozilla/Gecko-based browser. But they can't until September.

In the Xserve demo on Tuesday, Apple were using Chimera for the demostration, with IE no-where to be seen.

I predict that Apple will (try to) surprise us with an Apple-sponsored Chimera.

Meanwhile, Chimera's main author has gone on sabbatical. Where to? Maybe Apple?

Thoughts?

mitchell_pgh · May 17, 2002, 09:25 AM

Apple has already tried building a browser (remember Cyber Dog?) They will never try to kill the M$ Apple relationship. Doing so would be suicide. M$ Office is an absolutely necessary part of the OSX road to greatness, and most corporations develop their web sites specifically for IE. It's a sad truth, but M$ won the browser war by bruit force. I still think there is room for all the Mozilla browsers, but it's going to be an uphill battle. What is so difficult is the fact that there is no way to market such a beast. The guy on the streat doesn't know Mozilla, Gecko, Chimera from a hold in the ground, and it is confusing. Confusion usually leads to to people going to the "brand name" which is Microsoft.

I would like a few major players (Sun, Apple, Intel, RedHat, etc.) give 4 engineers each to a true open source browser alternative, but that will never happen.

voodoo · May 17, 2002, 09:42 AM

Netscape is still a brand name known throughout the computer industry. What it's known for doesn't matter, it's not like Microsoft is known for their quality and reliability and yet people choose them...

Mozilla is very very good. Most impressive - I've been using Moz since 0.98 (currently at 1.0 rc2) and looks like I won't be changing browsers in the forseeable future.

xyber233 · May 17, 2002, 09:50 AM

I don't mind IE. I just hope that it gets updated. I really want anti-aliased text. I like it because it launches very quickly.

Anand · May 17, 2002, 09:59 AM

What is odd is that Apple keeps saying they have incorporated things for the Educational market in Jaguar but if it is realeased in September - it will be of no value for the educational market! They will need it in July at the latest (?). Could this be a smokescreen for the early realease of Jaguar?

Fotek2001 · May 17, 2002, 12:43 PM

I'm not sure that Apple will dump IE because there's not really any reason to kick up a fuss about anything as mundane as a web browser. The more likely scenario is that we'll see Apple bundling third party browsers again (Netscape and OmniWeb) as other options.

I wouldn't be too thrilled to see a bundled Apple branded browser simply because it would obviously have to have that f***ing ugly brushed metal interface which I absolutely loathe.

P.S. M$ is supposed to be working at the moment on a new version of IE that addresses all of the problems with the current release (slowness, stability, performance, features). My guess is that they're looking at the competition to see how they can beat it and the release will be something much closer to how OmniWeb and Chimera are likely to be.

zazou · May 17, 2002, 12:50 PM

this is a repost of mine from over the Software Forum. I think it is fairly relevant.

Ok, here is some wild speculation, rumor mongering and general fuel for the fire, but....

As it happens I don't use IE very often. At all really. But i fired it up today by accident with LaunchBar. I hit IE instead of IT for iTunes and..... well, anyhoo....

Up comeshttp://livepage.apple.com (the default URL).

There are Netscape and AOL logos all over this page. It is hosted by Netscape It used to be Excite. Further, the Chimera usage in the Xserve demo (which i pronounce zerve), the sudden absence of any activity on the MozDev front, little, if any, promotion of IE by apple and the ending of the IE/MS contract...

...it all adds up to something. It is certainly a lot more Netscape-centric than Apple needs to be unless there is a pot of Gecko a brewin'

What in the hell could it all mean?!?!

::GASP::

Bruce O'Neal · May 17, 2002, 12:57 PM

i am not sure why you guys always sat IE is soooo slow. i am no MS lover, but the browser works, is very quick, and launches faster than any of the other browswers on my machine (G4/733/512).

however, i like mozilla and have been using it more and more. it still does not have enough features turned on for me (i'm at version 1.0 pr2). but overall it works fairly well. they need a new interface for sure and better javascript implementation (i cannot access some pages with loads of javascript ... and yes ... i have checked and re-checked my settings).

ps: i'd be interested to see the site statistics to see how many people are accessing this site in all the various os x browsers.

[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: Bruce O'Neal ]

Northform · May 17, 2002, 12:59 PM

IE for Jaguar has already been announced and even if it weren't Apple would still ship IE with X. There is no hope of Apple bundling Chimera until it is a 1.0 browser no matter how good it is. The same goes for Mozilla. Apple doesn't want to deal with the tech support headache and if you want it you can download it. OmniWeb might be bundled if they can produce 4.1 in time for the release, but it won't be default.

Jerommeke · May 17, 2002, 01:05 PM

you may think IE is gonna be dumped, and in it's current shape it is absoulutely crappy, I agree.

But there is some thing: if Apple dumps IE, Microsoft will sump Office support and other product developments, which is not a good move for Apple itsself

KaptainKaya · May 17, 2002, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by Northform:
IE for Jaguar has already been announced and even if it weren't Apple would still ship IE with X. There is no hope of Apple bundling Chimera until it is a 1.0 browser no matter how good it is. The same goes for Mozilla. Apple doesn't want to deal with the tech support headache and if you want it you can download it. OmniWeb might be bundled if they can produce 4.1 in time for the release, but it won't be default.

Apple COULD include different browsers in an extras folder in the Applications directory if they really wanted to. Don't forget though, even though Chimera or Mozilla aren't finished doesn't mean Apple can't include them. IE was still in preview form when 10.0 shipped (yes, I'm aware that 10.0 could be considered preview as well). Its up to Apple really on how they want to market this.

mike one · May 17, 2002, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by ducasi:


Let's face it, IE sucks, and Mozilla/Chimera is much, much better. Apple would be wise to switch to some sort of Mozilla/Gecko-based browser. But they can't until September.
Thoughts?

mozilla/chimera better than IE? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
HA
HA
HA!
funniest thing i've read all day.

MacGorilla · May 17, 2002, 01:21 PM

Steve said once that "IE is my browser of choice" meaning he loves it, even without an agreement, so I don't think it's going anywhere. remember, in 9.x though IE is the default browser, they still bundle netscape. I expect this to return to X.

I also like IE, it isn't perfect but neither are the altermatives.

Xeo · May 17, 2002, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by Anand:
What is odd is that Apple keeps saying they have incorporated things for the Educational market in Jaguar but if it is realeased in September - it will be of no value for the educational market! They will need it in July at the latest (?). Could this be a smokescreen for the early realease of Jaguar?

I see where you are coming from.

I would have a lot easier time talking our IT Dept. and the people who run the Mac labs to switch them to OS X if Jaguar would be available before school starts. If classes start before Jaguar is released, there isn't much of a chance that OS X will make it's way into our digital arts lab and some other labs. We still have a chance that OS X will be moved to the less app specific labs.

Jerommeke · May 17, 2002, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by mike one:


mozilla/chimera better than IE? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
HA
HA
HA!
funniest thing i've read all day.

errrhm... are you trying to be funny?

Sophus · May 17, 2002, 04:07 PM

This will not be an issue before we have real all round alternatives to IE for the OSX platform. I'm sure apple wouldn't mind dumping IE when we have a cocoa alternative that is stable and well supported. Until then, nothing is going to happen. Maybe OW 4.1 will be bundled as a secondary option, but IE, however crappy the implementation on OSX is, is still the most feature complete solution, and will therefore stay... Still hoping for something better and non M$ though...

Sophus

Yoda's Erotic Piggyback · May 17, 2002, 09:13 PM

Originally posted by voodoo:
Netscape is still a brand name known throughout the computer industry. What it's known for doesn't matter, it's not like Microsoft is known for their quality and reliability and yet people choose them....

Less then 8% of surfers use Netscape. That matters.

Eug · May 17, 2002, 09:56 PM

Originally posted by Yoda's Erotic Piggyback:


Less then 8% of surfers use Netscape. That matters.

Yep. I used Netscape until 4. At that point IE 4 was MUCH better. Netscape more bloated and buggy. IE 4 got more bloated but actually got less buggy and faster.

I don't like the current iteration of IE for OS X, but I still use it exclusively (after trying Mozilla and OmniWeb) and have hopes for a major improvement within the next little while. My main issues with it are the blanked out white screens and the spinning beachball of death. OmniWeb in some ways is superior but I still got some formatting anomalies with it, and of course I couldn't use some secure websites.

And Mozilla, to be fair, I have not tried in the last little while, but at the time I didn't think it was even in the running. I'll try it again soon.

But like I said, if M$ can come up with a good update soon, I will see no need to switch.

mrtew · May 17, 2002, 10:08 PM

Originally posted by Jerommeke:
you may think IE is gonna be dumped, and in it's current shape it is absoulutely crappy, I agree.

But there is some thing: if Apple dumps IE, Microsoft will sump Office support and other product developments, which is not a good move for Apple itsself

Two questions...

Why do people talk as if M$ is doing Apple a favor by selling it's superexpensive programs to Apple customers? I think that is what BillGate$ WANTS to do! He makes money and keeps Apple alive (to avoid becoming a monopoly and avoiding being torn into a thousand little companies by the Govt').

And why do people think is it so important to M$ to have everyone running Explorer on Macs? What does BillGate$ get out of people using his browser anyway?

mugwump · May 17, 2002, 10:15 PM

What's the big deal about Apple providing their own browser? It's not like Microsoft gets any revenue from IE or even does much to improve it.

Look, Microsoft had Outlook and Entourage, and Apple released Mail.

Adobe has photoshop, and Apple now has iPhoto.

SoundJam was the mp3 player, and Apple unveiled iTunes.

Microsoft has Office, and Apple has Appleworks.

IF apple could do something with a browser that could replicate the OS X experience of Mail, iPhoto, iTunes, iMovie -- then they should.

How about sticking chimera into Sherlock 3

starfleetX · May 17, 2002, 10:15 PM

Originally posted by Yoda's Erotic Piggyback:
Less then 8% of surfers use Netscape. That matters.

Expect that number to skyrocket now that AOL is using Netscape/Mozilla's Gecko engine in the default browser. Like it or not, AOL is still probably the largest ISP in the US.

Nonsuch · May 17, 2002, 10:29 PM

Originally posted by starfleetX:

Expect that number to skyrocket now that AOL is using Netscape/Mozilla's Gecko engine in the default browser. Like it or not, AOL is still probably the largest ISP in the US.

With more than 30 million subscribers, they are quite definitely the largest ISP in the US (or the world).

Originally posted by John Tewksbury:
And why do people think is it so important to M$ to have everyone running Explorer on Macs? What does BillGate$ get out of people using his browser anyway?

Because with the advent of Web-based software services, the client OS is going to matter less while the browser/access client is going to matter more. Bill Gates realized several years ago (after first ignoring the internet completely) that a computer using Netscape to access a suite of online services wouldn't really need Microsoft or Windows at all, and that's not acceptable. If he can't actually control the internet, he's going to do everything he can to control access.

Northform · May 17, 2002, 10:37 PM

Originally posted by KaptainKaya:


Apple COULD include different browsers in an extras folder in the Applications directory if they really wanted to. Don't forget though, even though Chimera or Mozilla aren't finished doesn't mean Apple can't include them. IE was still in preview form when 10.0 shipped (yes, I'm aware that 10.0 could be considered preview as well). Its up to Apple really on how they want to market this.

Face facts. As much as chimera may be fine for you it would be a headache for Apple. "Why is the app always quiting?" "Why when I try to watch a movie does it crash?" "I'm clicking on files, but they aren't downloading!" "The preferences aren't working!" (and for mozilla) "I try to download a file, but just a lot of wierd characters come up on the screen!" Apple isn't going to go for that. Mozilla is stable and complete enough that Apple could consider it if it could correctly identify certain files that should be downloaded instead of diaplayed (I know you can use the con-text menu, but most won't so Appl won't go for it) and they create a decent looking interface for it (that looks like it belongs in its Aqua surroundings).

Plus, with projects like these the browser will be outdated before the CD ships meaning people will have to download them anyway. Sure they shipped a preview IE, but there weren't the glareing defects like even Mozilla's download problem (just massive speed issues). Mozilla 1.0 will probably be included if it is out on time, but Chimera is too far off. Apple wouldn't mind you using it, but thay would mind you calling for support concerning it (not to mention the bad press they would get - bugs are worse than slowdowns tenfold or much much more).

Even in an extras folder Apple would have to become a support company for them; putting apple in the place of supporting Alpha software. OmniWeb 4.1 is as much of a sure bet as there is if it is out on time, Mozilla 1.0 is a little shakier, bit if it comes out on time it will probably be included, but Chimera ain't gonna happen soon.

If you like an alt browser, great! Tell your friends, coworkers, families and people you meet on the street, but Apple isn't going to show its support for the more primitive ones (and handle the tech support).

Netscape 6 is also a pretty good bet and most likely it will be updated with the changes to Mozilla since 6.2 came out. Netscape has the brand and the corporate backer that would make Apple feel safe using it (not to mention cozying up to AOL) plus consumers already have a company to bug about problems, unlike with Chimera/Mozilla. OmniWeb also fits this bill, but without the name recognition.

ducasi · May 18, 2002, 06:41 AM

Originally posted by Northform:
Face facts. As much as chimera may be fine for you it would be a headache for Apple. "Why is the app always quiting?" "Why when I try to watch a movie does it crash?" "I'm clicking on files, but they aren't downloading!" "The preferences aren't working!" (and for mozilla) "I try to download a file, but just a lot of wierd characters come up on the screen!" Apple isn't going to go for that. Mozilla is stable and complete enough that Apple could consider it if it could correctly identify certain files that should be downloaded instead of diaplayed (I know you can use the con-text menu, but most won't so Appl won't go for it) and they create a decent looking interface for it (that looks like it belongs in its Aqua surroundings).

Up till now, Chimera has had one and a bit people working on it, and already it looks good, and has the potential to be something really sweet. If Apple takes it on now, give it, say, 5 engineers, in four months they could have one hell of a good browser.

The support issue isn't a problem. How much does Apple support IE or StuffIt Expander?

If Apple's enhancements are merged back into Chimera/Mozilla/Netscape, then they won't have to worry too much about future support. Maybe they would call the resultant browser "iNavigator", or perhaps it will end up being branded "Netscape Navigator".

Plus, with projects like these the browser will be outdated before the CD ships meaning people will have to download them anyway. Sure they shipped a preview IE, but there weren't the glareing defects like even Mozilla's download problem (just massive speed issues).

If Apple give their browser some features that don't exist in Chimera or Mozilla, then you won't be able to download new versions faster than Apple wants. (c.f. Netscape 6.2 - can you get a newer version of it from anyone else but Netscape?)

Don't you think Apple could fix all the download problems if it wanted to in the next four months?

Netscape 6 is also a pretty good bet and most likely it will be updated with the changes to Mozilla since 6.2 came out. Netscape has the brand and the corporate backer that would make Apple feel safe using it (not to mention cozying up to AOL) plus consumers already have a company to bug about problems, unlike with Chimera/Mozilla. OmniWeb also fits this bill, but without the name recognition.

Apple are going to release an Apple-branded version of AIM, with the agreement of AOL. Don't you think they could do something similar with Netscape? If Netscape 6.2 could be good enough, why can't an Apple iNavigator?

I still think it's a distinct possibility.

[[Edit: tidy up the UBB quotes]]

[ 05-18-2002: Message edited by: ducasi ]

eno · May 18, 2002, 07:17 AM

Originally posted by Anand:
What is odd is that Apple keeps saying they have incorporated things for the Educational market in Jaguar but if it is realeased in September - it will be of no value for the educational market! They will need it in July at the latest (?). Could this be a smokescreen for the early realease of Jaguar?

Apple will not release Jaguar early.

I have only been in the Mac world since 1996, and I cannot remember Apple EVER releasing an OS update significantly before the announced release date.

At times, they've surprised us and released unannounced (and therefore unexpected) updates. But they've never done things early.

On the contrary, how many times have their promises slipped?

As it is, if Jobs says "late September" he probably means "early October" at best.

Person Man · May 18, 2002, 07:35 AM

Originally posted by eno:

As it is, if Jobs says "late September" he probably means "early October" at best.

Jobs said "Late Summer," not "late September." "Late Summer" usually means "September 22 and not a day earlier," in other words, the absolute last calendar day of Summer. That way they can claim, "Hey! We released it in the summer..."

OmniX · May 18, 2002, 05:03 PM

anyone know what HTML rendering Apple's Help application in OS9/X uses?
Speaking of which, is there any differences between the HTML rendering capabilites of the 9 version of Help and the X version?

Are any updates being planned for Jaguar?

Devs out there--would it be difficult for Apple to use Gecko, at least for the limited uses of the Help app?

Millennium · May 18, 2002, 05:10 PM

Originally posted by OmniX:
anyone know what HTML rendering Apple's Help application in OS9/X uses?

It's Apple's own home brew. Only supports up to HTML 3.2, plus a small amount of CSS. I believe it was based off of IE4/Mac.

Speaking of which, is there any differences between the HTML rendering capabilites of the 9 version of Help and the X version?

Devs out there--would it be difficult for Apple to use Gecko, at least for the limited uses of the Help app?

It could be done, but I don't believe Apple has any plans to do so at the moment.

It couldn't just be the stock Gecko engine, however. The Help Viewer has support for a couple special types of URL schemes which Apple uses. That would have to be added in (though it wouldn't be much of a big deal).

Millennium · May 18, 2002, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by OmniX:
anyone know what HTML rendering Apple's Help application in OS9/X uses?

It's Apple's own home brew. Only supports up to HTML 3.2, plus a small amount of CSS. I believe it was based off of IE4/Mac.

Speaking of which, is there any differences between the HTML rendering capabilites of the 9 version of Help and the X version?

Devs out there--would it be difficult for Apple to use Gecko, at least for the limited uses of the Help app?

It could be done, but I don't believe Apple has any plans to do so at the moment.

It couldn't just be the stock Gecko engine, however. The Help Viewer has support for a couple special types of URL schemes which Apple uses. That would have to be added in (though it wouldn't be much of a big deal).

hypermac · May 18, 2002, 08:22 PM

I am using Chimera to view and post this. On my iBook 300 using OS X, speed is a major issue. On a G4 PowerMac this would be much less of a concern. Speed and Microsoft's virtual monopoly are the main drawbacks to IE, but IE is more polished than the rest. Chimera shows us though, that it is possible to have a very fast browser even on an old iBook.

But bundling IE was a political decision. A quid pro quo. It will be bundled until and if there is an all out war between AAPL and MSFT. If AAPL does not offer IE bundled, then Office would be crippled. Like the AIM agreement though, apple can support Netscape and provide once again a choice. It could also covertly support efforts at improving Chimera/Mozilla versions. I see Apple actively joining R&D efforts around open-standards, but a head on battle against Microsoft would be deadly to Apple right now.

I think Steve showed Chimera at the xServe introduction for two reasons: (1) to show that there are many choices available in an OS that is open-standards based, and (2) to appeal to UNIX and penguin folks, for whom the freedom to choose is not taken for granted, especially choosing something other than the evil empire.

KidRed · May 18, 2002, 10:15 PM

The Netscape bashers seem to forget or don't know that AOL will be replacing IE with Netscape. That means 30 million people will be surfing Netscape by this summer. As a web designer, I know that AOL browsers get more respect then the mac platform, which is sad. But this will definitely change the browser wars.

As for those who say Apple loves IE, and not to piss off M$, look at AOL. They've had IE as their engine for how many years? And who's been the main whiner at the anti-trust hearings? I know Apple is no AOL, but you can throw mud at M$ and still maintain a relationship. Look at all the latest Apple X ads, no Chimera at the Xserve demo, all means to me that Apple is saying what's IE?

Curious is the Xserve demo means that with 10.1.4 Server doesn't include IE as the default browser?

ccsccs7 · May 19, 2002, 12:35 AM

Originally posted by Yoda's Erotic Piggyback:


Less then 8% of surfers use Netscape. That matters.

Yoda's Erotic Piggyback Sig:


"Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you?"

Looks a little contradictory doesn't it.

Eug · May 19, 2002, 01:31 AM

Considering that AOL owns Netscape, that's not surprising.

What's apparent though is that AOL so far has not been able to improve Netscape's usability however. As far as I know Netscape still sux in comparison to IE. (And this is coming from a diehard Netscape fan until version 4 of Netscape and IE on the PC, when IE really started to take over in terms of usability.)

Millennium · May 19, 2002, 12:28 PM

Netscape's marketshare doedsn't matter much. This is what standards are for: to make sure that all browsers can interoperate, regardless of who made them (I suspect this is also why IE/Windows is so reluctant to support them; it would break their stranglehold).

But to a platform which may not even have as much marketshare as Netscape does anymore, what should Netscape's marketshare matter? It's a better browser engine, and thus it stands to reason that a better browser can be made from it.

Guy Incognito · May 19, 2002, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by ccsccs7:


Looks a little contradictory doesn't it.

Size matter not, indeed! The proof? Star Wars Episode 2. Yoda, master of deception, rules!

ducasi · May 27, 2002, 10:51 AM

<a href="http://www.theregister.co.uk/" target="_blank">The Register</a> has posted <a href="http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/25451.html" target="_blank">their thoughts</a> on this matter.

They come down against Apple dumping IE, but they can still see all the possible reasons why one might suspect such a thing...

So was I first to put this theory forward?

P · May 27, 2002, 01:35 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by eno:
Apple will not release Jaguar early.

I have only been in the Mac world since 1996, and I cannot remember Apple EVER releasing an OS update significantly before the announced release date.
<hr /></blockquote>I have been in the Mac world at least 10 years longer tha you have, and I can't remember Apple ever releasing something early. Jaguar gets here in September at the earliest.

Rumor Addict · May 27, 2002, 03:48 PM

Where was OS X beta released? Macworld Paris 2000

Where was OS X 10.1 to be released until the event was canceled after 9/11? Macworld Paris 2001

Where will Jaguar be released? Macworld Paris 2002 Sept 10th - 14th

Just my opinion.

hELLO wORLD · May 27, 2002, 07:52 PM

Well, there is something to look at in this discussion :

Netscape = AOL
AOL = AIM Messanger = iChat protocol...

Do you see what this means ?

Apple is the first and only third party welcomed to the AIM AOL Network.
This means agreements between AOL-Time Warner and Apple.
Could those agreements include Apple to help the Mozilla development and/or bundle it with Mac OS X ? Heh...

undotwa · May 28, 2002, 12:15 AM

I remember they used Chimera during the XServe demonstration. There wasn't an MS IE icon in sight. I'm pretty sure Apple is going to switch to Chimera, after all the author hasn't updated Chimera because of rumoured talks with Apple.

pmcd · May 28, 2002, 02:31 AM

I don't mind IE being there but I wish Apple would make it easier to set another browser as the default browser and have it stick. In the longer term becoming free of the Office "threat" has got to be a priority for Apple though I'm sure they would never admit it.

philip

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MacGorilla:
Steve said once that "IE is my browser of choice" meaning he loves it, even without an agreement, so I don't think it's going anywhere. remember, in 9.x though IE is the default browser, they still bundle netscape. I expect this to return to X.

I also like IE, it isn't perfect but neither are the altermatives.<hr /></blockquote>

K++ · May 28, 2002, 10:09 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by pmcd:
I don't mind IE being there but I wish Apple would make it easier to set another browser as the default browser and have it stick. In the longer term becoming free of the Office "threat" has got to be a priority for Apple though I'm sure they would never admit it.

philip

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MacGorilla:
Steve said once that "IE is my browser of choice" meaning he loves it, even without an agreement, so I don't think it's going anywhere. remember, in 9.x though IE is the default browser, they still bundle netscape. I expect this to return to X.

I also like IE, it isn't perfect but neither are the altermatives.<hr /></blockquote><hr /></blockquote>In Jaguar they finally stick. FINALLY!

+ spiral + · May 28, 2002, 11:22 AM

Netscape 7 preview release is actually quite fast on my B+W tower. The tabed browsing is nice and all the features i actually use (being able to bank online, remembering my passwords, cookies etc.) work properly. I've loved IE 5 when it came out but Netscape 7 is pretty awesome. It actually renders things properly that IE is slack about.

GRAFF · May 28, 2002, 11:35 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Originally posted by pmcd:
[QB]I don't mind IE being there but I wish Apple would make it easier to set another browser as the default browser and have it stick. In the longer term becoming free of the Office "threat" has got to be a priority for Apple though I'm sure they would never admit it.
<hr /></blockquote>Has anyone figured out a way to add other browsers to the drop-down menu (in Internet prefs) without always having to search for them? IE seems to stay put!

KellyHogan · May 28, 2002, 11:37 AM

Netscape or Chimera are fast and excellent if you have low standards. IE is crap is you just hate a large corporation for being a large corporation.

The fact is that if Netscape and AOL had their way we would still be paying for browsers, paying phone bills and high subscription charges and the internet would have developed very slowly. Microsoft made browsing fast and free and the response to that was lower charges from ISPs, more free browsers from other developers and no phone charges.

Can you imagine if AO-Hell and Netscrape maintained their monopoly! I welcome more internet apps including a browser from Apple. They can ask Microsoft to make a version of IE that looks well integrated with the iApps.

[ 05-28-2002, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: KellyHogan ]

mbryda · May 28, 2002, 11:57 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KellyHogan:
The fact is that if Netscape and AOL had their way we would still be paying for browsers, paying phone bills and high subscription charges and the internet would have developed very slowly. Microsoft made browsing fast and free and the response to that was lower charges from ISPs, more free browsers from other developers and no phone charges.
<hr /></blockquote>No it didn't. MS isn't the "white knight" you paint them out to be.
I still pay for phone service.
Mosaic was always free. IE in it's early incarnations was crap. That is a FACT! Try IE 3.x or 2.x and tell me how good and fast it is. Compare that to Netscape 2 or 3 and see what you get.
ISP service still costs around $20/mo for dialup, same as back in '96.
Broadband has held at around $50/mo for the past couple years.
IE is no faster than Netscape, OmniWeb, etc. This is on both PC and Mac platforms. About the only thing that is speedy is IE's startup, and that is because it is so integrated in the OS. (Which is a bad thing - it leads to numerous instability issues in Windows.) IE without the OS instegration (Install IE 4.0 on '95 and not do active desktop) still loads like a slug.

KellyHogan · May 28, 2002, 01:11 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mbryda:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by KellyHogan:
[qb]
Mosaic was always free. IE in it's early incarnations was crap. That is a FACT! Try IE 3.x or 2.x and tell me how good and fast it is. .<hr /></blockquote>Heh? I loved IE 3! It was frigging fantastic. Imagine Netscape Navigator. It took NN 15 seconds just to open a new window! Haha. IE3 was snappy and downloaded fast. In fact, IE 3 and Media Player version 5 are the best browser and media player I have ever used to this date including all the stuff included with OSX and XP!

Ahh, the days of lightweight apps with all the power. And a 'save movie as' option. Modern versions of Media Player don't allow you to save movies, sort of like Quicktime. They stick it in a cache and give it a funny name.

Fotek2001 · May 28, 2002, 01:22 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KellyHogan:

I loved IE 3! It was frigging fantastic.
<hr /></blockquote>It was f**king awful. It barely supported any of the standards of the time, had lousy support for HTTP 1.1 and couldn't handle anythimg more complex than a small table with a few words and pictures in it. I don't know what they did when they got the code for Mosaic but it all went downhill from there. It's no wonder they started from scratch with IE 5.

I seem to remember it was equally bad on Windows. IE 2 on Windows NT didn't support any of HTTP 1.1 which means that it's now almost completely unusable because most current webservers require HTTP 1.1 for virtual host pseudo-multihoming. I seem to remember it couldn't do frames or plugins either...

[ 05-28-2002, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: Fotek2001 ]

lookmark · May 28, 2002, 01:30 PM

Ahem. Anyway.

The question "Is Apple going to dump IE?"

can be answered by the question

"Has an industry-accepted alternative for Microsoft Office arrived yet?"

It's that easy.

jblakeh1 · May 28, 2002, 01:32 PM

Surely KellyHogan is reminiscing IE 4... IE 3, as Fotek stated, was too buggy for regular use.

When IE is updated with cocoa-anti-aliasing, I doubt I'll have much use for Mozilla. I like that Chimera lacks mail/AIM/ and all the other things built into Netscape/Mozilla, however. It's just too far from done.