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Utter Rubbish from the BBC
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Parky
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Feb 12, 2007, 09:41 AM
 
Read some rubbish here :-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6353889.stm

And then give the writer your feedback here :-

[email protected]

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brassplayersrock²
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Feb 12, 2007, 09:57 AM
 
is your last name actually Parke by chance?

-a
     
Parky  (op)
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Feb 12, 2007, 09:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by brassplayersrock View Post
is your last name actually Parke by chance?

-a
You only need to look at my profile to see it's Parkinson!
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WOPR
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Feb 12, 2007, 10:31 AM
 
That guy's always been a pillock. I hope he enjoys Linux!

 iMac Core 2 Duo 17" 2ghz 3gb/250gb ||  iBook G4 12" 1.33ghz 1gb/40gb
     
Doofy
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Feb 12, 2007, 10:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by Thread Title
Utter Rubbish from the BBC
So what's new?
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
Eug
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Feb 12, 2007, 11:04 AM
 
Personally, I also think Jobs' blog is bull. Kudos to that BBC guy for not being taken in by Jobs' RDF.
     
Chuckit
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Feb 12, 2007, 11:28 AM
 
Yeah. That damn Steve Jobs, encouraging consumer rights. He ought to be hanged for **** like this!

Seriously, everybody acting like Jobs has come late to the party and just wants to take credit is smoking something. To hear people talk, you'd think the record companies' response to the essay was along the lines of, "Well, duh." In fact, it was much closer to, "Uh…no." So yes, even though some people have this deep-seated need to disbelieve, Jobs is actually speaking up for a cause.
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Eug
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Feb 12, 2007, 12:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Yeah. That damn Steve Jobs, encouraging consumer rights. He ought to be hanged for **** like this!

Seriously, everybody acting like Jobs has come late to the party and just wants to take credit is smoking something. To hear people talk, you'd think the record companies' response to the essay was along the lines of, "Well, duh." In fact, it was much closer to, "Uh…no." So yes, even though some people have this deep-seated need to disbelieve, Jobs is actually speaking up for a cause.
Yeah, that cause he's speaking up for (understandably) is iPod sales.


If he were truly a believer in consumer rights, then he wouldn't have said this, back in his Pixar days:

At a recent private meeting with Hollywood studio heads and tech czars like Microsoft Corp.'s Steve Ballmer and Hewlett-Packard Co.'s Carly Fiorina, Mr. Jobs argued that studios shouldn't license their movies for use in the planned "high-definition DVD" format until Hollywood is assured by the tech industry that the discs can't be copied by new DVD burners that will come along. High-definition DVDs are being developed as a successor to the current digital-video-disc format and are expected to be on the market by next year, along with high-definition DVD burners.

Mr. Jobs even suggested that high-definition DVD burners not be bundled with computers at all -- a scenario he said in an interview was "extreme" and one that "I hope we don't have to get to, but it helps to put the issue in perspective." He said it is up to the tech industry to prove to Hollywood that high-definition content can be adequately protected.



In addition, Nettwerk sez it no longer requires DRM on its songs, but Apple still puts FairPlay on them.

Unlike the four major labels — Universal, Warner Music Group, EMI and Sony BMG — the independents provide eMusic with permission to distribute the music in plain MP3 format. There is no copy protection, no customer lock-in, no restrictions on what kind of music player or media center a customer chooses to use — the MP3 standard is accommodated by all players.

EMusic recently celebrated the sale of its 100 millionth download; it trails only iTunes as the largest online seller of digital music. (Of course, iTunes, with 2 billion downloads, has a substantial lead.)

Among the artists who can be found at eMusic are Barenaked Ladies, Sarah McLachlan and Avril Lavigne, who are represented by Nettwerk Music Group, based in Vancouver, British Columbia. All Nettwerk releases are available at eMusic without copy protection.

But when the same tracks are sold by the iTunes Music Store, Apple insists on attaching FairPlay copy protection that limits their use to only one portable player, the iPod. Terry McBride, Nettwerk’s chief executive, said that the artists initially required Apple to use copy protection, but that this was no longer the case. At this point, he said, copy protection serves only Apple’s interests.
     
villalobos
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Feb 12, 2007, 01:10 PM
 
I am with Eug on that one, I don't think Jobs and iTunes have much credit regarding open systems...
     
Jawbone54
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Feb 12, 2007, 02:54 PM
 
I third Eug.

The BBC article actually makes some good points. I'm a Steve Jobs fan for sure, but I think this is a bit of posturing by the Apple god.
     
Chuckit
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Feb 12, 2007, 03:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
The BBC article actually makes some good points.
Like what? Looks like the same old tripe rehashed to me.
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Eug
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Feb 12, 2007, 04:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Like what? Looks like the same old tripe rehashed to me.
Many people have come to similar conclusions as that BBC guy, because many people similarly are not buying Jobs' blog either.
     
Chuckit
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Feb 12, 2007, 04:39 PM
 
Because many people have similarly banal objections that are actually answered right in the body of Jobs' essay, but they're so dead-set on opposing an essay IN FAVOR OF CONSUMER RIGHTS that they completely refuse to comprehend anything that disagrees with their blind hatred.

And heck, when they run out of already-addressed objections to Jobs' essay, they'll just start attacking Jobs himself. That clearly shows a cool and dispassionate intelligence at work here.
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Eug
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Feb 12, 2007, 04:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Because many people have similarly banal objections that are actually answered right in the body of Jobs' essay, but they're so dead-set on opposing an essay IN FAVOR OF CONSUMER RIGHTS that they completely refuse to comprehend anything that disagrees with their blind hatred.

And heck, when they run out of already-addressed objections to Jobs' essay, they'll just start attacking Jobs himself. That clearly shows a cool and dispassionate intelligence at work here.
Nah. Cool and dispassionate means we look at the evidence.... and the evidence is his previous words and actions. His previous words are DRM is good-good-good and his previous actions are I-don't-want-DRM-free-songs-even-when-a-label-offers-it-to-me.

Suddenly when the world is breathing down his neck complaining about iTunes closed iTunes DRM, he has a change of tune.

There is no hatred, and the discussions are not blind. However, a large segment of people are attacking that blog, because it reeks of posturing with misleading statements that are rightly questioned because of his previous history regarding DRM and because of examples that already exist that prove him wrong.

This is one time people are calling Jobs' bluff in droves, and you just happen not to like it.

P.S. I have NO PROBLEM with DRM-free music. In fact, I prefer it, and so much so that 99.9% of my music is DRM-free (ripped off my CDs). I just don't think Jobs has much credibility here championing it. He looks far too much like someone simply trying to stall for time and make himself look good.
     
Big Mac
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Feb 12, 2007, 05:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Nah. Cool and dispassionate means we look at the evidence.... and the evidence is his previous words and actions. His previous words are DRM is good-good-good and his previous actions are I-don't-want-DRM-free-songs-even-when-a-label-offers-it-to-me.
When did a label offer non-DRMed music? I guess I missed it. If the offer were rejected, it's probably because Apple doesn't want to segment the store between DRMed and non-DRMed music - it would make things much more difficult for people to understand. If Apple's going to offer non-DRM, it will only do it for the whole store.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
lpkmckenna
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Feb 12, 2007, 05:24 PM
 
Fairplay is applied to any song downloaded from the iTunes Music Store and built into every iPod ever shipped.

Apple has refused to license it to any other service or hardware manufacturer and as a result songs bought from Apple can only be played on PCs and Macs running iTunes, and iPods. (Let's forget about the Apple/Motorola phone, shall we?).
iPods have been around longer than FairPlay, so obviously that line is false. I own a ROKR, so I can't really ignore it for the sake of his argument. And of course anything that plays CDs can play music from the iTunes store.
It also ignores the reality that Microsoft's widely licensed system has been cracked the same number of times as Fairplay, so the evidence would seem to indicate that Jobs fears are not justified.

FairPlay is very light-weight. It's apparently very easy to break.
I don't believe him. If Apple switched off Fairplay then they would probably sell a lot more songs, on which they make very little money, and a lot fewer iPods, on which they make a lot. I don't buy songs from Apple's store because I don't like DRM.
I don't think there's any relation between # of iPods sold and # of songs sold on iTunes.
Sadly he's likely to be crushed under foot by those who really understand the music business and didn't sell their souls to the record companies back in the days when they believed in DRM.
Yeah, sure. Crushed.
     
Big Mac
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Feb 12, 2007, 05:29 PM
 
What do people want from Apple, anyway? To make a mea culpa for ever using DRM? It was necessary to get the labels on board, and it's still necessary today unless and until they change their tune. Apple isn't necessarily pro-DRM or anti-DRM. What Apple is is pro-profit and pro-consumer; the company will do what it can to make a profit while satisfying the consumer. Thus far, the way to do that has been to offer a large library of light-DRM protected songs.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
Eug
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Feb 12, 2007, 05:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
What do people want from Apple, anyway? To make a mea culpa for ever using DRM? It was necessary to get the labels on board, and it's still necessary today unless and until they change their tune. Apple isn't necessarily pro-DRM or anti-DRM. What Apple is is pro-profit and pro-consumer; the company will do what it can to make a profit while satisfying the consumer. Thus far, the way to do that has been to offer a large library of light-DRM protected songs.
Ironically, if Jobs had said nothing, nobody would have complained. Or if Jobs had proposed DRM-free music without transparently bogus reasons for having closed and locked-to-iPod DRM, then nobody would have complained. People are complaining because Jobs is making up excuses for keeping FairPlay the way it is now. ie. Jobs says "I'm sticking with closed FairPlay unless everything goes DRM-free." That's a pretty safe statement to make when he knows that most of the big labels want nothing to do with DRM-free music.


Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
When did a label offer non-DRMed music? I guess I missed it.
See my previous post a few posts above. Terry McBride, head of Nettwerk, specifically said to the New York Times that Nettwerk songs on iTunes have DRM because Apple wants it there. Nettwerk no longer requires DRM on their music, and in fact they offer it DRM-free on competing online music stores.


If the offer were rejected, it's probably because Apple doesn't want to segment the store between DRMed and non-DRMed music - it would make things much more difficult for people to understand. If Apple's going to offer non-DRM, it will only do it for the whole store.
That's one opinion. There is merit to that, but if Apple truly were the champions of DRM-free music, they would have jumped on the chance to make an entire label's music DRM-free and held that example up for the rest of the labels to see. Instead, Apple just conveniently brushed it under the carpet.
     
Hawkeye_a
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Feb 12, 2007, 06:09 PM
 
Why should Apple host a music download service to help sell other MP3 players ? if DRM free music is such a big issue to Apple haters, why dont they commission the geniuses at Microsoft, Dell and Creative to create a DRM free store for the world ?

If Apple put the effort into negoiating with the music industry for some consumer rights in fairplay, i see no reason why Apple has any obligation to offer the fruits of it's labour(hosting the music on servers) to it's competitors. If on the other hand, someone else does manage to offer DRM-free music and Apple's store comes under competitive pressure, they can choose to offer DRM-free content as well.

The Windoze nerds imo, are just jealous that their beloved Dell, Creative and Microsoft are not getting any attention for their mediocre efforts and offerings in the PC and music industry, simple as that. this guy just sounds so jealous that no one cared about CES and payed more attention to MWSF. get over it. And i see no reason why any of us should pay these sort of people any attention.

The best medicine for this stupidity is to just ignore them. The fewer hits their opinion pieces get the less relevant their opinions become.
     
Eug
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Feb 12, 2007, 06:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Why should Apple host a music download service to help sell other MP3 players ? if DRM free music is such a big issue to Apple haters, why dont they commission the geniuses at Microsoft, Dell and Creative to create a DRM free store for the world ?

If Apple put the effort into negoiating with the music industry for some consumer rights in fairplay, i see no reason why Apple has any obligation to offer the fruits of it's labour(hosting the music on servers) to it's competitors. If on the other hand, someone else does manage to offer DRM-free music and Apple's store comes under competitive pressure, they can choose to offer DRM-free content as well.

The Windoze nerds imo, are just jealous that their beloved Dell, Creative and Microsoft are not getting any attention for their mediocre efforts and offerings in the PC and music industry, simple as that. this guy just sounds so jealous that no one cared about CES and payed more attention to MWSF. get over it. And i see no reason why any of us should pay these sort of people any attention.

The best medicine for this stupidity is to just ignore them. The fewer hits their opinion pieces get the less relevant their opinions become.
You miss the point.

Jobs statement only came about because certain countries have declared FairPlay's closed DRM illegal. So, if enforced, Apple's option's are:

1) Open up FairPlay. This is what most of the labels want, but obviously Apple does not want this.
2) Go DRM-free.
3) Close down iTunes in those countries.

Regarding #1 - That is the main reason people are criticizing Jobs' blog. Jobs has made up excuses why Apple can't open up FairPlay, when most of us know the real reason is because opening up FairPlay eliminates the iPod (and iPhone) lock-in.
     
lpkmckenna
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Feb 12, 2007, 06:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
You miss the point.

Jobs statement only came about because certain countries have declared FairPlay's closed DRM illegal. So, if enforced, Apple's option's are:

1) Open up FairPlay. This is what most of the labels want, but obviously Apple does not want this.
2) Go DRM-free.
3) Close down iTunes in those countries.

Regarding #1 - That is the main reason people are criticizing Jobs' blog. Jobs has made up excuses why Apple can't open up FairPlay, when most of us know the real reason is because opening up FairPlay eliminates the iPod (and iPhone) lock-in.
There's another important reason that everyone seems to have missed.

If Apple opens FairPlay, they will also have to license Microsoft's DRM technology. Apple doesn't want Microsoft's control.
     
nonhuman
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Feb 12, 2007, 06:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
There's another important reason that everyone seems to have missed.

If Apple opens FairPlay, they will also have to license Microsoft's DRM technology. Apple doesn't want Microsoft's control.
Huh? I think I'm missing something, not quite sure what you're getting at here.
     
Eug
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Feb 12, 2007, 06:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
If Apple opens FairPlay, they will also have to license Microsoft's DRM technology.
No they wouldn't. Opening up FairPlay doesn't mean the iPod has to run competing DRM formats.
     
Big Mac
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Feb 12, 2007, 06:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
If Apple opens FairPlay, they will also have to license Microsoft's DRM technology. Apple doesn't want Microsoft's control.
Uh, I don't understand, why would Apple have to license Microsoft's DRM? If Apple were to license FairPlay, that would have nothing to do with Microsoft's DRM. If Microsoft wanted FairPlay support on the Zune (for example), it would have to license it from Apple. Apple wouldn't need anything from Microsoft unless it wanted the iPod to be compatible with Microsoft's DRM, right?

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
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Feb 12, 2007, 06:34 PM
 
Lets all just agree that corporations are out to make money any way they can and leave it be. This debate is almost as tired as the Mac vs. PC debate, and this one isn't nearly as old.
     
Chuckit
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Feb 12, 2007, 07:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Regarding #1 - That is the main reason people are criticizing Jobs' blog. Jobs has made up excuses why Apple can't open up FairPlay, when most of us know the real reason is because opening up FairPlay eliminates the iPod (and iPhone) lock-in.
You know that? How does that work? Have you read Apple's contracts more thoroughly than Jobs has? And I mean, the option that Jobs was arguing in favor of eliminates the iPod lock-in just as completely.
( Last edited by Chuckit; Feb 12, 2007 at 07:47 PM. )
Chuck
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lpkmckenna
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Feb 13, 2007, 09:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
No they wouldn't. Opening up FairPlay doesn't mean the iPod has to run competing DRM formats.
There's only a couple of ways that "DRM interoperability" can be attained. They are:
a) all on-line stores sell both FairPlay and PlaysForSure versions of songs; or
b) all portable players and computers play both FairPlay and PlaysForSure songs.

Either method requires Apple to license PlaysForSure. (All of this is ignoring the other commercial DRMs, like Real and Zune.)

If Apple neither sells PlaysForSure songs nor plays PlayForSure on the iPod, then they are at a competitive disadvantage to stores and players that use both FairPlay and PlaysForSure.

There's no way Apple can license FairPlay to others, and not license DRM from Microsoft. That would only help MS and hurt Apple.
     
nonhuman
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Feb 13, 2007, 10:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
There's only a couple of ways that "DRM interoperability" can be attained. They are:
a) all on-line stores sell both FairPlay and PlaysForSure versions of songs; or
b) all portable players and computers play both FairPlay and PlaysForSure songs.

Either method requires Apple to license PlaysForSure. (All of this is ignoring the other commercial DRMs, like Real and Zune.)

If Apple neither sells PlaysForSure songs nor plays PlayForSure on the iPod, then they are at a competitive disadvantage to stores and players that use both FairPlay and PlaysForSure.

There's no way Apple can license FairPlay to others, and not license DRM from Microsoft. That would only help MS and hurt Apple.
c) Everyone standardizes on a single DRM scheme.

As FairPlay is currently the leader of the pack, it would make sense for people to standardize around it if Apple were to start licensing it.
     
eddiecatflap
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Feb 13, 2007, 11:17 AM
 
the bbc are a disgrace to british journalism

and to be a disgrace to british journalism takes some f**kin doin' !
     
lpkmckenna
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Feb 13, 2007, 11:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
c) Everyone standardizes on a single DRM scheme.

As FairPlay is currently the leader of the pack, it would make sense for people to standardize around it if Apple were to start licensing it.
That's a great idea! Do you think Microsoft will go for it?
     
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Feb 13, 2007, 11:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by eddiecatflap View Post
the bbc are a disgrace to british journalism

and to be a disgrace to british journalism takes some f**kin doin' !
From the end of the article:
"Bill Thompson is an independent jounalist and regular commentator on the BBC World Service..."

He is not a BBC employee. So you are criticising the BBC for allowing someone to air their opinion, an opinion which many may agree with. Would you prefer they only offer pro-Apple coverage? You should look at some other news providers around the world before you are so quick to pass judgement.
     
nonhuman
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Feb 13, 2007, 12:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
That's a great idea! Do you think Microsoft will go for it?
Of course not, but they don't necessarily have to. Or are you afraid that all those Zune users are going to rebel against this plan?

No matter how much they may want to, this is not a market that Microsoft controls or is even dominant in. iTunes is available for Windows, and if FairPlay is licensed, other media software and hardware that support it will be available for Windows as well.
     
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Feb 13, 2007, 03:27 PM
 
On the issue of the 'I'm a Mac' adverts which is raised in this piece, I cringe a bit when I see the one which has 'I am for the office' for the 'PC' and 'I am for the home' for the Mac. For those of us working in a university environment it makes it rather harder to convince the Powers That Be that the Mac is a serious option for the institution. 'But I've seen the ads' says the IT man, 'the Mac is just some toy for the home' etc.
     
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Feb 13, 2007, 03:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by monkeybrain View Post
From the end of the article:
"Bill Thompson is an independent jounalist and regular commentator on the BBC World Service..."

He is not a BBC employee. So you are criticising the BBC for allowing someone to air their opinion, an opinion which many may agree with. Would you prefer they only offer pro-Apple coverage? You should look at some other news providers around the world before you are so quick to pass judgement.
another joke that went over your collective heads

sheesh
     
Chuckit
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Feb 13, 2007, 03:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by eddiecatflap View Post
another joke that went over your collective heads

sheesh
Jokes - funny = boring insults
Chuck
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eddiecatflap
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Feb 13, 2007, 04:08 PM
 
your specialist subject

now do another your mom joke , you boring ****
     
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Feb 13, 2007, 04:43 PM
 
I think its ban time for this annoying little sh!t.
     
eddiecatflap
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Feb 13, 2007, 04:49 PM
 
cos i have a comeback you're incapale of coping with ?

hah

how apt
     
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Feb 13, 2007, 04:51 PM
 
No, because all you are doing is spouting verbal masturbation. These aren't "come-backs" your replies require no thought.

You are basically saying "I know you are but what am I" over and over again.
     
eddiecatflap
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Feb 13, 2007, 04:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
No, because all you are doing is spouting verbal masturbation. These aren't "come-backs" your replies require no thought.

You are basically saying "I know you are but what am I" over and over again.
i refer the dimwit to my previous post

i have pm'd the mods to delete this thread as it served little purpose beyond amusing me
     
Kevin
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Feb 13, 2007, 04:54 PM
 
You just did it again.
     
eddiecatflap
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Feb 13, 2007, 04:56 PM
 
i'm with eug on this one
     
Kevin
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Feb 13, 2007, 04:57 PM
 
What are you with him about?
     
eddiecatflap
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Feb 13, 2007, 04:59 PM
 
agreeing on something

eug , eugwanker and simon are grate posters imo

you could learn something
     
Kevin
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Feb 13, 2007, 05:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by eddiecatflap View Post
agreeing on something
I know this. I am asking what specifically you agree with them on. You know, I am requesting CONTENT from you.
eug , eugwanker and simon are grate posters imo

you could learn something
You've upgraded from verbal masturbation to CONDESCENDING verbal masturbation.

Great.
     
eddiecatflap
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Feb 13, 2007, 05:08 PM
 
no , grate

you should post at mdn

it's most liberating
     
scottiB
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Feb 13, 2007, 05:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
There's only a couple of ways that "DRM interoperability" can be attained. They are:
a) all on-line stores sell both FairPlay and PlaysForSure versions of songs; or
b) all portable players and computers play both FairPlay and PlaysForSure songs.

Either method requires Apple to license PlaysForSure. (All of this is ignoring the other commercial DRMs, like Real and Zune.)

If Apple neither sells PlaysForSure songs nor plays PlayForSure on the iPod, then they are at a competitive disadvantage to stores and players that use both FairPlay and PlaysForSure.

There's no way Apple can license FairPlay to others, and not license DRM from Microsoft. That would only help MS and hurt Apple.
Exactly. Forcing (in whatever way) Apple to licence FairPlay without reciprocity from other DRMs is ipoderability. It benefits all but Apple. To achieve true interoperability, I want, as a Mac user--using Mac OSX, to be able to join a subscription service that uses Windows Media (Zune and PlaysForSure). Will Norway attack that hegemony once Apple is out of its sites?

Interoperability is across operating systems, hardware, players, song media type, and location. Have Norway set January 1, 2009 as the date of the Grand Unified DRM and have all who wish to sell music in that country meet that date. Watch it be cracked on January 1, 2009 @ 12:30GMT.

If Apple has to licence, all do. Nevermind that we do have an interoperable format : the MP-frickin'-3.

Who gives a crap about Jobs' methods--his ideals--is he sincere?--his consistency over what some reporter heard in him say in 2003--he's such the iconoclast--whatthefrackEVER. The fact is that he's right, DRM is a doomed business idea; the majority of music sold has no DRM, and selling all DRM-laden songs is confusing for the consumer.

Sure Apple can license FairPlay--at a muthfrackin' $2 per song. If Real/Zune/Walmart wants to sell iPod compatible songs, they'll have to charge the customer $3 for the honor. If MS wants the Zune to be able to handle .m4p: $100 per player. Let's not have Apple give away what they've negotiated, engineered, designed, enhanced, and created. Let's not give away what Apple had earned.

Sell all tunes as MP3 and let the market decide who has the most desirable store and the most desirable player. Jobs put it on the table. His sincerity is immaterial.
I am stupidest when I try to be funny.
     
   
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