[freudling]

Originally Posted by Eug 

If they stopped shipping netbooks with Windows 7 Starter and 1 GB RAM, maybe they'd see an uptick in netbook sales. But maybe they're scared that netbooks would then start eating away at "real" laptop sales.

I'm in the grey zone. I absolutely refused to get a 10.1" netbook because the keyboard is too small, and I absolutely refused to get any machine with Windows 7 Starter or 1 GB RAM. Single-core Atom doesn't impress either. OTOH, the 11.6" MacBook Air netbook is too expensive, and 13.3" laptops are too big. (I already have a 13.3" MacBook Pro.) So, I got that 11.6" Win 7 Home Premium netbook, with real CPU and 2 GB RAM.

The iPad is in that no-mans land, IMO. It's a well designed device no doubt, but at the same time it's got the worst of both worlds. It's as big as a netbook but without the netbook's versatility, and it's powered worse than (or at best equal to) an iPhone 4, with the same limitations.

BTW, now that I have the netbook, I'm almost considering converting all my Keynote presentations to PowerPoint and selling the MacBook Pro. However, I'm holding out hope that the 11.6" MacBook Air will get an update in 2011 that will impress me more, both in terms of specs and price. The one thing I hate the most on the netbook actually is the lack of a backlit keyboard. On an tablet this is not an issue obviously.

I agree with a lot of this. Apple really doubled back by stripping out the backlit keyboards in the Airs. And the 11" Air is way too expensive. The EEEPC is about 350 bucks and is a good machine and decent performer. If you think the 11" is going to give you much better performance real world than cheaper netbooks like the EEEPC, you're wrong. OS X is a beast, and as a former AIR owner (2.13 128 SSD), the lack of RAM and scaled down processor choked all too often. And forget Photoshop, others.

[Eug]

If I got an Air, these would be the specs:

1) 11.6" with full-sized BACKLIT keyboard
2) 4 GB RAM
3) Longer battery life than what it offers now
4) 256 GB SSD
5) Core 2 Duo or Core i3. (Yes, C2D is fine for me.)
6) Education price, with free iPod touch deal, or else a refurb.

However, an OS X Air is definitely much faster than a single-core Atom netbook with a decent OS. Just try surfing on a page with Flash on an Atom netbook. Lots of lagginess in other Win 7 OS stuff too.

It will be interesting though to see what AMD Ontario and Zacate will bring to the netbook market.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by freudling 

OreoCookie:
The iPad IS a competitor to netbooks. [bunch of links]

No, you got that in reverse: just because there is evidence that people buy tablets instead of netbooks -- a category of devices that came into existence with the iPad -- doesn't mean they're competing. It's like comparing vans to station wagons: they both offer lots of space, but they're still in different categories. If you look for a good van, you probably won't end up with a station wagon.

It's the same here: if you have your mind set on a netbook/small notebook, you won't take any tablet, no matter what the size and heft of the tablet is. Conversely, if you have chosen to take a tablet, netbooks are out of the equation. Of course there are people who don't know which way they'll go, because they haven't figured out which category of devices fits best (`they don't know whether it's better for them to go with a van or a station wagon').

Originally Posted by freudling 

And again, if you read above, you'll see why the smaller 7" screen is favorable. Because of the success of dedicated eReaders like the Kindle.

I've said that I haven't made up my mind on the screen size/weight issue. I've got to play with a few iPads up until now, but I haven't really used a 7" tablet. I'll reserve my judgement until then. There are also arguments for having a larger screen -- 10" does work well for web pages, you can really view most of a webpage on a single page.

I've seen the Kindle and I haven't been overly impressed with the device. Too many restrictions and too little use.

Originally Posted by freudling 

Price. When can we stop faulting companies for charging more than the iPad? But the screen is smaller! The iPhone 4 costs more than an entry iPad, and its screen is comparitively tiny.

A gold ring can also be more expensive than an iPad The iPhone 4 is a separate beast and does not compete with tablets (well, with Dell's Streak perhaps).

7" tablets do indeed compete with the iPad and you'd think that a smaller display also means they'd be cheaper. But it's clear that apparently Apple's competition can't make 10" tablets at a price point similar to Apple. Even though you may prefer a 7" tablet, some people seem to prefer a 10" tablet. And for those, Samsung doesn't offer an alternative.

Originally Posted by freudling 

I agree with a lot of this. Apple really doubled back by stripping out the backlit keyboards in the Airs. And the 11" Air is way too expensive. The EEEPC is about 350 bucks and is a good machine and decent performer. If you think the 11" is going to give you much better performance real world than cheaper netbooks like the EEEPC, you're wrong.

The Air's Core 2 Duo is significantly faster than any Atom. As is the graphics card and the SSD. In fact, in many benchmarks (such as app launching times) which are important during light usage, it outperforms my Core i5 MacBook Pro because of its speedy SSD.

The Air does not compete against netbooks, i. e. cheap notebooks.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

A widget is not an app. Every Android device has some sort of Facebook or Twitter widget.

Many Android apps have widgets as part of their interfaces, so that blanket statement isn't true. Specifically, the Twitter Android app includes a desktop widget that scrolls the latest subscribed tweets. (Probably FB too, but I wouldn't know personally.) Click the widget and it opens the full app.

Widgets are one area where the iPad is lagging Android, and I really don't care if the One Steve commands otherwise. I can see where it's not as big a deal on the relatively small screen of an iPhone (but even that is debatable) but on an iPad? All that screen real estate with multiple scrolling desktops, and the best possible use of it is... multiple pages of large app icons? Please.

I'd rather apps just be arranged by category (like smart shortcuts in Android) and desktop icons merely pop up the entire category of app shortcuts. So rather than every 'game' having an icon on my tablet desktop, just let me define an icon called "games" that when pressed calls up another screen with all my games. And so on with every other application type I want to define. If one must scroll through every app, make that simply a second level that's also reached from ONE location on the desktop.

Basically, apps by category, or all scrolled through multiple pages at a time, can then easily be confined to ONE desktop, freeing up any others I want to define for widgets or whatever else. Maybe I want one desktop for system indicator widgets, one for a full screen calendar that links to my scheduler apps, one for all my news readers, stock tickers, etc. And widget interfaces for music, playlist, podcast, and other media apps is a freakin' must.

A tablet should work more like the dashboard concept in reverse; on a mobile device, access to needed information at a glance should take priority over merely launching applications - which desktop widgets can do anyway. On a desktop computer, a desktop cluttered with application, document, and folder icons may be perfectly logical, with widgets being the thing that are out of the way until needed- but why this same type of literal 'desktop' metaphor with a tablet? It's not a 'used only at a desk' type of device, so the whole concept of its 'desktop' space should be rethought pertaining to what the device actually is- something that should FREE you from the whole desktop concept.

To me, the iPad seems a bit bass-ackward in that sense until the thinking changes somewhat. (Not that these early Android tablet devices have it completely right either).

[Eug]

Netbooks and iPads are most definitely competing.

Car analogies never work but I'll add expand on yours anyway. When people consider a family car station wagon vs. a minivan they generally get one OR the other. Now some get both but many do not.

And yes, the Air does compete against netbooks too. My two options were a Win netbook and an Air netbook. I bought a Win netbook and not the Air netbook.

My netbook isn't exactly cheap as netbooks go, but at < $400 it's still less than half the price than the Air, so by air standards it's still very cheap. Screen is the same size, as is memory. The CPU is only slightly slower on mine. The drive is not an SSD, but then again it's 250GB. And the battery life is around 50% longer than the Air's.

[freudling]

OreoCookie:

You can use a bunch of distracting analogies all day, it doesn't matter. The data is there. When the iPad launched, there was a drop in netbook sales growth, and it kept declining. Even Asus's CEO attributes the fall off to the iPad. You're just simply incredulous.

The Kindle. That's cool of you don't like the Kindle because it's too limitimg. But that says nothing about the form factor. The Galaxy Tab has a very similiar form factor to the Kindle, but boat loads more functionality. The Kindle has also been a top seller on Amazon for over 2 years.

Looks like Apple can't make a 3.5" mini tablet cheaper than an entry iPad.

And you're oversimplifying it. It has a smaller screen! You know that screen has a much higher pixel density than the iPad for starters. Second, the Tab has more hardware. Like a front and back facing camera, and an SD card slot. iPad has none of that. The TAB also has double the RAM compared to the iPad... Hmmmm, makes you think now about why it's not cheaper than an iPad based on screen size alone.

And the Air. The Air absolutely competes with netbooks, always has. There has been so much written about the competition between the two. It was Apple's answer to netbooks at the time.

And in my circle, myself and many others compared the Air to netbooks. Some of us ended up buying the Air, others got netbooks.

And coming from someone who actually had an Air deployed for over a year, marketing and benchmarks don't always translate to real world performance. Sorry, OS X is a beast, and you won't be running too much with the Air. Have a stop at Apple's forums to see all the problems.

As for your assessment of netbooks, there's lots of positive comments about the performance of the better ones.

[pooka]

I recently got an iPad for work. Maybe the iphone 4 has me spoiled, but the initial shock of just how shitty the ipad screen is like a kick in the nuts. That and the iTunes tether for putting/pulling files off the thing truly sucks. I really hope Android tablets take off so maybe they'll push Apple to open things up a bit. Yeah right...

[freudling]

pooka:

I agree. No built-in file system is a pain. And the screen next to the iPhone 4 is really bad. It's terribly pixelated. It's for all these reasons and more that I'm switching over to the Tab. We'll see if I made the right choice in a few months after some real world use.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by freudling 

You can use a bunch of distracting analogies all day, it doesn't matter. The data is there. When the iPad launched, there was a drop in netbook sales growth, and it kept declining. Even Asus's CEO attributes the fall off to the iPad. You're just simply incredulous.

I'm not incredulous, I just have a different interpretation of events: the iPad created a new main stream market segment that precedes netbooks. So if you create a new segment, people who would have otherwise bought a product from a different market segment buy products from the new segment. So the netbook segment suffers, because people who would have bought a netbook buy a tablet.

But once that segment has been created, people decide between market segments first and then among products.

Originally Posted by freudling 

The Kindle. That's cool of you don't like the Kindle because it's too limitimg. But that says nothing about the form factor. The Galaxy Tab has a very similiar form factor to the Kindle, but boat loads more functionality. The Kindle has also been a top seller on Amazon for over 2 years.

I didn't claim it says anything about the form factor per se. It was just a specific comment about the Kindle.

Originally Posted by freudling 

Looks like Apple can't make a 3.5" mini tablet cheaper than an entry iPad.

My iPod touch was a lot cheaper than an iPad -- as is an iPhone 3 GS

Originally Posted by freudling 

And you're oversimplifying it. It has a smaller screen! You know that screen has a much higher pixel density than the iPad for starters. Second, the Tab has more hardware. Like a front and back facing camera, and an SD card slot. iPad has none of that. The TAB also has double the RAM compared to the iPad... Hmmmm, makes you think now about why it's not cheaper than an iPad based on screen size alone.

I'm not oversimplifying it.
Let's look at the numbers: isuppli.com is a page that estimates manufacturing costs of devices. They have a bill-of-materials for both, the iPad and the Galaxy Tab. They base their numbers on industry sources and experience. You can find slightly different numbers, e. g. on cnet. For simplicity, I will use isuppli's numbers, but cnets tell the same story.

Let's start with the conclusion: Samsung's Galaxy tab costs ~$215 to make, Apple's entry-level iPad costs around ~$230 (~$260 if you compare it ot the 16 GB 3G version). The most expensive component by far is the screen ($80 vs. $57 or $98 vs. $57, depending on whether you take all of the data from the Galaxy Tab's page)*; the iPad's costs about 10 times as much as both of the cameras built into the Galaxy tab ($8). In many instances, the costs scale well, e. g. the Galaxy Tab's battery has 55~60 % of the capacity of the iPad's battery and costs about 60 % of the iPad's battery as well.

* On the isuppli page for the Galaxy Tab and the cnet page I've linked to, the cost for the iPad's 10" screen is estimated to be $98, but the total is pretty much unchanged.


So yes, I think it's pretty clear that if other manufacturers wanted to make a 10" tablet, they probably couldn't make it as cheaply as the entry-level iPad. And I think it's the main motivation for others to release tablets with 7" screens.

Originally Posted by freudling 

And the Air. The Air absolutely competes with netbooks, always has. There has been so much written about the competition between the two. It was Apple's answer to netbooks at the time.

No, the original MacBook Air was and is a competition to machines like the Lenovo X300-series and such. It has never competed with netbooks -- it's simply too expensive to be any sort of competition.

Originally Posted by freudling 

And coming from someone who actually had an Air deployed for over a year, marketing and benchmarks don't always translate to real world performance.

I'm talking about the new MacBook Air, not the old one. I haven't noticed any posts about performance complaints (about the new one) on MacNN at least. The SSD seems to make the main difference, a fact that isn't just claimed by Apple's marketing people, but any review I have come across (e. g. arstechnica, The Register and cnet). The videos arstechnica has posted are particularly telling (not that I reboot my machine that often, but it takes much longer).

(Plus, you're not the only one with MacBook Air experience, my boss has one and he's very happy. He complimented me for suggesting it several times. To be honest, he doesn't have very high requirements though when it comes to computing power.)

Originally Posted by freudling 

As for your assessment of netbooks, there's lots of positive comments about the performance of the better ones.

I've had to work with netbooks of colleagues and each and every one of them was slow and felt like a joke to use (built quality, screen quality, screen size, keyboard, etc.). I wouldn't even consider one as my secondary machine.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I'm not incredulous, I just have a different interpretation of events: the iPad created a new main stream market segment that precedes netbooks. So if you create a new segment, people who would have otherwise bought a product from a different market segment buy products from the new segment. So the netbook segment suffers, because people who would have bought a netbook buy a tablet.

But once that segment has been created, people decide between market segments first and then among products.

So in other words, the Air is competing with netbooks, some of the time, which is what we've been saying all along.

It certainly was in my case. Win netbook vs. Air. The Win netbook won this round. The same may not be true in 2011 or 2012.

I've had to work with netbooks of colleagues and each and every one of them was slow and felt like a joke to use (built quality, screen quality, screen size, keyboard, etc.). I wouldn't even consider one as my secondary machine.

Just because your colleagues buy slow crap netbooks, doesn't mean they're all slow crap. Remember, there are different parts of the netbook market too. There are $149-249 netbooks, and there are also $399-$499 netbooks (and there are ones in between, and occasional ones over $499... like the Air). The latter group competes directly against the 11.6" Air. I already said my $399 netbook comes with a Pentium dual-core CULV processor. In fact, both the Air and my netbook have Core 2 Duo class processors. The difference is the Air is clocked at 1.4 GHz, and comes with 3 MB L2 cache. The processor that came in my netbook is clocked at 1.3 GHz, and comes with 2 MB L2 cache.

The Air is superior for design and weight. They share the same screen size, but usually the Air has a nicer screen. However, I was also thoroughly unimpressed by the weak hinge in two 11.6" Airs I saw in the store. Also, the Air is quite inferior for battery life with its anemic 35 Watt-hour battery, and storage space is wanting because SSD is the only option. In fact, ironically you'd have a better argument that this wasn't a netbook if it didn't come with 64 GB as an SSD. 64 GB is just about useless for a main laptop in 2010 for many people, but is fine for many netbooks.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Eug 

So in other words, the Air is competing with netbooks, some of the time, which is what we've been saying all along.

I was writing this in response to freudling's comment comparing a $350 netbook to the iPad. I was just pointing out that what one compares then are two different classes of devices rather than two specific devices, that's all. Of course there are people who are not sure what they'll take.

Originally Posted by Eug 

Just because your colleagues buy slow crap netbooks, doesn't mean they're all slow crap.

Actually I don't really know what kind of machines they have, so I wouldn't know whether they're cheap or expensive netbooks. They felt cheap -- but so do many laptops.

Personally, I don't think of netbooks as a separate category from notebooks (except for a few of the initial ones like the original eeePC that went in the direction of the iPad: a simple surf machine). So what you call netbook (portable computers with fast processors) classifies as a notebook to me, I don't see any technological distinction between the two. I use the term, though, because has become customary.

And yes, there are computers that are comparable to the Air in weight, processing power or any other parameter you'd like to choose. You list downsides of the Air and I think you're right with all of them (except perhaps that the SSD pushes the Air in the netbook category). However, I think the manufacturer is in charge of making the decisions which compromises are worth it and which aren't. It seems to me that in every day light use (i. e. work loads that are primarily limited by the disk or the network), the Air will fare quite well and `feel' fast to the average consumer. I'm a little jealous actually, that I cannot put an SSD into my machine (well, at least not one which is fast, has the capacity I'd like it to have and I can afford ).

It's actually good that people have alternatives. That goes for the Air just the same way as for 7" vs. 10" tablets. I'm certain there is a market for both and if the competitors sell enough 7" tablets, Apple will probably come around and make a 7" tablet themselves. I don't have a stake in the debate yet as I think it'll be at least, 2-3 years if not more before buying any sort of tablet. If the 11" MacBook Air was available last May, I would have gotten one -- and an iMac.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I'm not incredulous, I just have a different interpretation of events: the iPad created a new main stream market segment that precedes netbooks. So if you create a new segment, people who would have otherwise bought a product from a different market segment buy products from the new segment. So the netbook segment suffers, because people who would have bought a netbook buy a tablet.

But once that segment has been created, people decide between market segments first and then among products.

I didn't claim it says anything about the form factor per se. It was just a specific comment about the Kindle.

It's kinda of fun to watch you get all blue in the face, wave your hands... but nothing you have said is in reference to any data whatever. It's just a guy named OreoCookie on a forum pontificating about what he/she thinks about market segments in the personal computer industry. THE CEO OF ASUS HAS STATED THAT THE IPAD HAS CUT INTO NETBOOK SALES. Microsoft has said it. There's tons of charts showing the drop off in sales.

There's no other explanation for such a huge drop off in sales growth with netbooks, that actually ended in the negative, other than the iPad taking away sales. If Samsung released a really cool desktop computer, it wouldn't cut into netbook sales. This is just the point: a tablet is a mobile computer that rivals netbooks. It's something that can make a netbook redundant across several tasks.

If you actually had reviewed the sales data you would see one of the largest drop offs in sales that coincided with the release of the iPad. And that's why there was such a buzz about the iPad eating up netbook sales. For some, it IS a zero sum game. They either use a tablet or they use a netbook, but not both, because many people have a desktop and a laptop. The value of netbooks in the mix of a desktop, laptop and tablet gets eroded. That means trips, vacations, business, cafes... there's more and more people scrapping their netbooks for a tablet computer.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I'm not oversimplifying it.
Let's look at the numbers: isuppli.com is a page that estimates manufacturing costs of devices. They have a bill-of-materials for both, the iPad and the Galaxy Tab. They base their numbers on industry sources and experience. You can find slightly different numbers, e. g. on cnet. For simplicity, I will use isuppli's numbers, but cnets tell the same story... blah blah

Nice try, like isuppli is the authority where they know exactly how much these companies are paying to have this stuff manufactured. They don't, they just make estimates.

Here's the reality:

iPad 3G ($629):

-16 GB
-3G UMTS/HSDPA
-10" screen
-Wifi, bluetooth
-256 MB RAM
-Mono speakers

Samsung Galaxy Tab ($599) !!<< CHEAPER >>!!:

-16 GB internal storage
-7" high resolution screen
-3G modem. HSDPA, 7.2 Mbps; HSUPA, 5.76 Mbps
-Wifi, bluetooth
-Front and rear-facing cameras, with flash
-512 MB RAM
-MICRO SD
-Stereo speakers
-720x480@30fps video capture

The reality is the Samsung Galaxy Tab comes with substantially more built-in functionality which are all value adds to the consumer. And it's actually cheaper than the base iPad 3G model, NOT more expensive.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

No, the original MacBook Air was and is a competition to machines like the Lenovo X300-series and such. It has never competed with netbooks -- it's simply too expensive to be any sort of competition... meep sorp.

Yes, it is, and we're all telling you it is. I'm guessing you probably don't believe much of what you write because you do it due to the fact that you are feeling pugnacious. Well, I really hope that's what it is.

[Eug]

Ironically I can put an SSD into my netbook if I want. However, I'm fine with a hard drive. My MacBook Pro is fine with a hard drive, so a netbook ought to be fine with a hard drive too. For cost vs. space reasons, I actually prefer a hard drive for 2010. My guess is that my preferences will change by 2012 however.

The Air will be a better option when it ships with a minimum of 128 GB. With 64 it's extremely limiting.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Many Android apps have widgets as part of their interfaces, so that blanket statement isn't true. Specifically, the Twitter Android app includes a desktop widget that scrolls the latest subscribed tweets. (Probably FB too, but I wouldn't know personally.) Click the widget and it opens the full app.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was referring specifically to the stock widgets that ship with most Android devices, specifically the Tab.

[Eug]

LOL. I suspected as much.







http://www.anandtech.com/show/4018/a...1215n-ng-ion/6

I don't know if this is reflected in the Air, but this is one spot where I suspect the Air blows away all other netbooks on the market.

I have the Acer 1810TZ, which is basically the same thing as the 1810T but with 1 MB L2 cache removed. The screen is at best mediocre. While the machine is great in terms of battery life and cost, the screen is not in the same league as the one on my MacBook Pro. IOW, I wouldn't really want to edit too many photos on this Acer, even though the speed is perfectly fine for it.

Mind you for the iPad/Tab discussion, it's completely moot. These are consumption machines. They're pretty much ineffective for productivity.

[Paco500]

Originally Posted by freudling 

There's no other explanation for such a huge drop off in sales growth with netbooks, that actually ended in the negative, other than the iPad taking away sales.

I think you are missing another possibility. A year ago, about 10 people in my office were using netbooks rather than their IT supplied laptops. Today, I don't thin any of them are. One or two have moved to iPads for day to day stuff, but they have all moved back to their corporate laptops or bought MacBooks. Netbooks burst on to the scene and a lot of people thought they could use them as real computers, but many have figured out they can not. Obviously, as shown in this thread, some can, and some netbooks are better than others, but for the most part, there are too many tradeoffs for them to be primary machines. The iPad may have taken some of the market, but for the rest of it, I suspect the blush is off the rose.

[Eug]

I think people are starting to realize that 10.1" laptops with single-core Atom CPU, Windows 7 Starter, and el crappo keyboards are basically useless as productivity tools.

Similarly, I think people are starting to realize that iPads are also basically useless as productivity tools.

Sure, neither of these classes were heavily touted as productivity tools, but that's what people think they can be.

The non-Apple manufacturers really need to promote the 11.6" - 12" netbook/ultraportable machines more, because those are the machines that can function both as internet consumption machines and actual productivity tools. Think 12" iBook, without the optical drive.

[Eug]

Hmmm... Interesting...

Android 2.2 APad Tablet - 1GHz Cortex A8 Processor - 512MB DDR2 - Wi-Fi & 3G [PPC-096-MX] - $208.38

Specifications:

* SCREEN
- 8-Inch TFT Display
- Resistive Touch Screen
- Resolution: 800 x 600 Pixel
- Aspect Ratio: 4:3
* PROCESSOR
- Freescale i.MX515 (Arm® Cortex™ A8/1GHz/256KB L2 Cache)
* OPERATING SYSTEM
- Google Android 2.2 Version (Support Web Flash 10.1)
* MEMORY
- 512MB DDR2 SDRAM
* FLASH STORAGE
- Internal 4GB NAND Flash
- Support External MicroSD Card up to 32GB
* 3D GRAPHICS ENGINE
- Support OpenGL ES 1.1&2.0
- Support 3D Games
* WIRELESS
- WLAN 802.11B/G Wi-Fi
- Support External 3G Wireless Data Cards
* NETWORK ADAPTER
- 10/100M Ethernet LAN
* SUPPORTED MEDIA FORMATS
- Support Multi-Format 720P HD Video Playback
- Video Formats: H.263, H.264 (BP/MP/HP), MPEG2 (MP), MPEG4 (SP/ASP) / XVID (SP/AP), VC-1 (SP/MP/AP), WMV9 (SP/MP/AP) & DIVX
- Audio Formats: MP3, AAC, OGG, APE, FLAC, RM (COOK5.1), SIPR, ATRC, WMA, WAV, DNET-AC3, AC3 True-HD
* INTERFACE
- 1 x Earphone Jack
- 1 x DC-IN Jack
- 1 x Dock Connector Port
- 1 x MicroSD Card Slot
* OTHER FEATURES
- Gravity Accelerometer
- 2.1 Channel Stereo Speakers
- Integrated Monophonic Recording
* OPERATION
- Power Adapter: AC 100V - 240V, 50 - 60Hz
- Battery Type: 4000mAh Rechargeable Li-Ion Battery
- Battery Runtime: 4 - 6 Hours (Wi-Fi/3G)
- Standby Time: 24 Hours
* SOFTWARE
- Office Suits: Word Viewer, Excel Viewer, Powerpoint Viewer, PDF Viewer, Image Viewer, Microsoft WordPad, Microsoft SpreadExcel
- MSN, SkyPE, GTalk, Weather Inquiry Online
- Google Satellitic Map, Google Search
* WARRANTY
- One Year Quality Guarantee
* PACKING INFO
- Color: Black
- Dimension: 20.8cm(L) x 15.8cm(W) x 1.35cm(H)
- Net Weight: Approx. 450g
- Package Size: 24.5cm(L) x 20.5cm(W) x 6.5cm(H)
- Gross Weight: Approx. 1.25Kg
- Package Type: Gift Box

What's in the box

* 1 x 8" Android 2.2 Tablet PC
* 1 x AC Adapter (AC 100V - 240V Input)
* 1 x Dock Connector to USB2.0 Port
* 1 x User Manual
* 1 x Leather Case with Keyboard (Optional)

$208 for the 8" model

Or else it's $295 for the 1024x768 10.2" model.

Pricing wise, that's more like it. Where they save money here is internal flash storage (there is only 4 GB), and my guess is the screen quality is pretty low end. Fortunately, for flash memory, a 16 GB Class 10 (fast) SD card is all of $22.

At these prices, I'd consider getting one when they get updated, with ARM A9 and Android 3.0. However, my guess is I'd prefer a 1024x768 8" screen, over the 800x600. I'd definitely consider paying $300 for that, plus maybe $50 for a 32 GB SD card.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I think people are starting to realize that 10.1" laptops with single-core Atom CPU, Windows 7 Starter, and el crappo keyboards are basically useless as productivity tools.

I agree.
That's why I'm saying that most netbooks sold today are just cheap notebooks. The initial eeePC was actually very interesting as a device: it had a custom Linux and was geared towards offering basic functionality for people (internet, music, chatting, word processing, etc.).

Originally Posted by Eug 

Similarly, I think people are starting to realize that iPads are also basically useless as productivity tools.

I think the difference here is that tablets such as the iPad never pretended to be replacements for regular computers (what you call `productivity tools'). BTW, I wouldn't say tablets are useless as productivity tools, I'm sure there are apps that can be used to produce something -- I'm just thinking of the new Djay iPad app. That's something developers have to figure out. But certainly they're not a device I'll type my next paper on, though.

Originally Posted by Eug 

The non-Apple manufacturers really need to promote the 11.6" - 12" netbook/ultraportable machines more, because those are the machines that can function both as internet consumption machines and actual productivity tools. Think 12" iBook, without the optical drive.

I hope AMD's new lines of processors can help here by supplying more power than Atoms at a lower price and similar power envelope.

Edit: The price point of the tablet you've mentioned in your last post seems interesting. If they released an iPad at this price, I'd be tempted to get one. I'm surprised they can build one for that little. According to isuppli, the iPad (and the Galaxy tab) cost more to make (development costs notwithstanding) than what you have to pay for this one.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I think the difference here is that tablets such as the iPad never pretended to be replacements for regular computers (what you call `productivity tools').

Well, Apple didn't heavily market it as a regular computer, but they did still push stuff like iWork, etc.

But that's not what I was getting at. What I was really getting at is that a lot of people just assumed they could almost use it as a regular computer. And then they bought one... and then discovered that they really couldn't. As I mentioned earlier, I saw a rush of people buying iPads early on and they were occasionally carrying them instead of their laptops. Then they started consistently carrying both, then they stopped carrying the iPad completely. Their iPads still get used at home, but it seems clear to me that these people were a little overly optimistic as to what they could do with the iPad.

BTW, most of the people I'm talking about here aren't perturbed about the money they spent on the iPad. They still have a use for it (mostly at home), and some of these are the types who buy a 17" MacBook Pro, a 13" MacBook Air, AND an iPad because the cost isn't a major issue to them (esp. since part of the cost is expensed). I'm just describing the process as they experienced the iPad.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Well, Apple didn't heavily market it as a regular computer, but they did still push stuff like iWork, etc.

Right.
Although I think this is part of Apple's long-term strategy: they envision that touch devices replace regular computers for a lot of the tasks in the consumer space. Whether you subscribe to that point of view or not, but Apple clearly is. And then it makes sense to start porting `productivity tools' as soon as possible.

To be honest, I do see a point in that if a sort of `hybrid computing' is adopted: you `plug in' an iPad into something like an iMac and you continue with your work where you have left off -- on the desktop version of OS X. You take it out and you have synced your iPad with the latest version of your files (perhaps your files are stored in the cloud). I'd be a miniature version of `home directory to go.' I can see myself making annotations to pdfs or very small corrections to text on an iPad, e. g. when revising a longer text. But certainly, this is still years away.

Originally Posted by Eug 

But that's not what I was getting at. What I was really getting at is that a lot of people just assumed they could almost use it as a regular computer. And then they bought one... and then discovered that they really couldn't.

Ah, ok, yes, many early adopters were a little over-enthusiastic as to what they can do with it. To be honest, I was among those people who thought they could get some work done if they carried a Bluetooth keyboard. But details are a bitch: no XeLaTeX = no work for me.

Originally Posted by Eug 

BTW, most of the people I'm talking about here aren't perturbed about the money they spent on the iPad. They still have a use for it (mostly at home), and some of these are the types who buy a 17" MacBook Pro, a 13" MacBook Air, AND an iPad because the cost isn't a major issue to them (esp. since part of the cost is expensed). I'm just describing the process as they experienced the iPad.

Right. And if I had 600 € laying around, not knowing what to do with it, I'd get an iPad.
But in reality, I have to wait until it's more useful and cheaper. If Apple manages to do with the iPad that what it did with the iPod, it'll be cheap and affordable in a few years.

I can already see many elements that I like about touch interfaces on my iPod touch: I very much prefer the facebook iOS client to the web interface, for instance.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

To be honest, I was among those people who thought they could get some work done if they carried a Bluetooth keyboard. But details are a bitch: no XeLaTeX = no work for me.

I actually bought a folding "Stowaway" keyboard for my Handspring Visor. It was awesome.



Too bad the Visor would crash occasionally. It's was like running OS 8 in crashiness. So while I loved the Stowaway keyboard (which was actually better than the keyboard on may current laptops), I couldn't type on the Visor much because I was too afraid I'd lose data.

However, I just came across this little unit for the nice and stable iPhone.





It's not exactly light at a little over half a pound, but more importantly it's small enough that I could actually carry it around in a jacket pocket, to be pulled out only when I'm in a coffee shop or something.

https://jornostore.com/

Unfortunately, it's not a full-sized keyboard. The Stowaway was a full-sized keyboard with a very good feel.

How are the current Stowaway Bluetooth keyboards with the iPhone 4?

[Cold Warrior]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Hmmm... Interesting...

Android 2.2 APad Tablet - 1GHz Cortex A8 Processor - 512MB DDR2 - Wi-Fi & 3G [PPC-096-MX] - $208.38

[i]Specifications:

Sure it's cheap, but so is this one. Why chase producers in their race to the bottom?

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Paco500 

I think you are missing another possibility. A year ago, about 10 people in my office were using netbooks rather than their IT supplied laptops. Today, I don't thin any of them are. One or two have moved to iPads for day to day stuff, but they have all moved back to their corporate laptops or bought MacBooks. Netbooks burst on to the scene and a lot of people thought they could use them as real computers, but many have figured out they can not. Obviously, as shown in this thread, some can, and some netbooks are better than others, but for the most part, there are too many tradeoffs for them to be primary machines. The iPad may have taken some of the market, but for the rest of it, I suspect the blush is off the rose.

Netbooks were on the market well before the iPad. Here you go chart data:

The iPad Effect: Notebook Sales Growth Now Negative

iPad cutting into sales is the best explanation of any.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I actually bought a folding "Stowaway" keyboard for my Handspring Visor. It was awesome.

Great! The weight wouldn't bother me. Now all I need is software

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Cold Warrior 

Sure it's cheap, but so is this one. Why chase producers in their race to the bottom?

Because usually when the cheap ones appear, it means the expensive ones are coming down in price, and the middle of the road ones are actually usable.

Do you think the $999 11.6" Air would have appeared if it weren't for the cheap PC netbooks? Remember, the 13" MacBook Air debuted at $1799, when MacBooks were going for $1099. In 2010, the 13" MacBook Air is $1299, and the 11.6" Air is $999, when MacBooks are going for $999.

BTW, I will point out that Ars tested a $99 400 MHz machine. Of course it will suck. Just that 400 MHz CPU alone will make it suck. As far as I'm concerned, they should start with a 1 GHz A8. That's what the iPad has, that's what the Galaxy Tab has, and that's what that cheap Chinese machine I linked earlier also has. This will likely change in 2011, when they get faster hardware. They may be clocked at the same 1 GHz, but clock-for-clock A9 is significantly faster, and eventually it will even go dual-core.

The Ars one might make for a nice techy looking cutting board though.

[freudling]

I'm seeing all kinds of comments like the following. I've got this sinking feeling that maybe they are right.

"Last week I was in the Apple store in Lenox Mall Atlanta, GA. There were about 100 customers in the store. About 20 around the new Air notebook table (you had to wait to look at one); there were 5-10 people near the iPhone & iTouch tables; a bunch of users in the back training area and a few playing with desktops....the iPad table remained empty during my 10-minute visit. I know very few people who own an iPad. Those I know admit it is more toy than a productivity tool. The demand exists among tweens and teens. I will not be surprised to read in the news about plunging sales in 2011."

And:

"I thought the review was fair. The Galaxy Tab - which I have used - is absolutely a Tablet and dwarfs the size of a smartphone.

The iPad - which I own - is too heavy to be a great book reader - and too large to be as portable as I'd like it.

Frankly I wish apple would do a 7" tab, and put front and back camera's on it, that'd be sweet - but Jobs has a bug up his bum about the 7" size.

No way - use the 7" tablet, you will never claim it to be smartphone size again - the smartphones are just too small to get the full internet experience, and the 7" tabs are much bigger, while maintaining portability and lightness. It's a nice size for a tablet."

[Spheric Harlot]

You know that the wording of the posts you quote sounds like prototypical astroturfing?

A million a month calls bullshit.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

You know that the wording of the posts you quote sounds like prototypical astroturfing?

A million a month calls bullshit.

I think the real BS is your input on this topic.

[Spheric Harlot]

That…hurts. Or something.

Whatever you expect in reply.

[Cold Warrior]

Well, Samsung may be looking to focus on Winphone7 in 2011. Where is that going to leave them with Galaxy Tab? Perhaps less focus, less updates. Now developers are left with another layer of uncertainty. Just like netflix, which can't do much on Android devices until consistent DRM is hammered out.

Android is fragmenting so quickly among hardware differences, UI, and network provider tweaks and locks that it will be impossible to develop a widely-available selection of great apps and games. There's always plenty of mediocrity on any platform that will run fine.

Develops will develop great stuff, but they'll have to cherry-pick from a small selection of hardware and UI combinations. This makes for a smaller market, which is a disincentive to develop.

Everyone says android 3 is supposed to fix everything, the panacea for all fragmentation. But Google doesn't have the juice to enforce it. With Microsoft in the mix now, those two are going to trade vision for market share. And market share means playing by others' rules -- the hardware builders and the network operators. More fragmentation, carrier-veto OS updates, more disincentive.

OT: 5" 7" 10" doesn't matter when the fragmentation is going to get worse and devolve into near-total unpredictability (as opposed to moderate right now). Sure buy a 7" Tab, and it's utility in the moment seems decent, but what about next year when Samsung rolls out a Winphone Tab with great software features and leaves the android Tab software delayed or abandoned?

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Hmmm... Interesting...

Android 2.2 APad Tablet - 1GHz Cortex A8 Processor - 512MB DDR2 - Wi-Fi & 3G [PPC-096-MX] - $208.38

[i]Specifications:

* SCREEN
- 8-Inch TFT Display
- Resistive Touch Screen

Yeah, deal-killer right there.

Much more interesting, (not to mention actually usable) would be the Archos 101 Internet tablet.

It's got the capacitive multitouch screen that should actually make it usable, and a fairly nice feature set. Supposedly runs Android 2.2. $299 for the 8GB or $349 for 16GB (and $199 for the 7" model) is a hint of the more realistic pricing that's hopefully on the horizon for Android tablets.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Cold Warrior 

Well, Samsung may be looking to focus on Winphone7 in 2011. Where is that going to leave them with Galaxy Tab? Perhaps less focus, less updates. Now developers are left with another layer of uncertainty. Just like netflix, which can't do much on Android devices until consistent DRM is hammered out.

Android is fragmenting so quickly among hardware differences, UI, and network provider tweaks and locks that it will be impossible to develop a widely-available selection of great apps and games. There's always plenty of mediocrity on any platform that will run fine.

Develops will develop great stuff, but they'll have to cherry-pick from a small selection of hardware and UI combinations. This makes for a smaller market, which is a disincentive to develop.

Everyone says android 3 is supposed to fix everything, the panacea for all fragmentation. But Google doesn't have the juice to enforce it. With Microsoft in the mix now, those two are going to trade vision for market share. And market share means playing by others' rules -- the hardware builders and the network operators. More fragmentation, carrier-veto OS updates, more disincentive.

OT: 5" 7" 10" doesn't matter when the fragmentation is going to get worse and devolve into near-total unpredictability (as opposed to moderate right now). Sure buy a 7" Tab, and it's utility in the moment seems decent, but what about next year when Samsung rolls out a Winphone Tab with great software features and leaves the android Tab software delayed or abandoned?

Sorry but this is all just recycling what the media is saying and has little basis in reality. Reality: Android smartphone OS has 25% marketshare worldwide, iOS 17%.

Wow, that fragmentation is really terrible isn't it?

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by Cold Warrior 

*snip* OT: 5" 7" 10" doesn't matter when the fragmentation is going to get worse and devolve into near-total unpredictability (as opposed to moderate right now). *snip*

Yup. That's the big challenge for Android.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Sorry but this is all just recycling what the media is saying and has little basis in reality. Reality: Android smartphone OS has 25% marketshare worldwide, iOS 17%.

Wow, that fragmentation is really terrible isn't it?

The media is saying it for a reason. It's not an insurmountable problem immediately, but it will become a big problem as the platform grows to more devices. There's no sense in sticking one's head in the sand and pretending the problems that do exist, don't. That's exactly the attitude that I despise in rabid fanboism, where people latch on to a 'team' brand and then exist in a cocoon that ignores all other technological progress and even the reality of the platform one is cheerleading for.

Personally, I'd like to see Android succeed because competition is good, and the more the envelope is pushed from all directions, the better. But the fragmentation problem Android is running up against is very real and can't be ignored simply for the sake of cheerleading for 'the team' or whatever.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Cold Warrior 

what about next year when Samsung rolls out a Winphone Tab with great software features and leaves the android Tab software delayed or abandoned?

That doesn't bother me as much when it's a sub $300 device.

If it can run the latest OS well today, and that latest OS is a recent revision, then it's probably going to last a couple of years.

You could just as easily ask why you'd drop $500 on an iPad with only 256 MB RAM and no flash storage expandability. You're paying almost twice as much for product that has other significant limitations, but that's OK?

But anyway, that's a good reason why I think the Samsung Galaxy Tab is overpriced for what it does... just like the iPad.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Wow, that fragmentation is really terrible isn't it?

For developers and service providers, it already is a big issue. Think of Netflix: they have iPhone, iPad and Windows Phone 7 support (just a few weeks after it has been launched). They have officially announced they will support only select Android devices (i. e. this is due to fragmentation):

Originally Posted by netflix

We live to get Netflix on new devices, so the current lack of an Android-generic approach to quickly get to all Android devices is frustrating. But I’m happy to announce we’ll launch select Android devices that will instantly stream from Netflix early next year.

Of course, you can have the attitude `as long as it runs on the device of my choice …'

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Eug 

But anyway, that's a good reason why I think the Samsung Galaxy Tab is overpriced for what it does... just like the iPad.

Agreed.
But I think as a v1.0 product, they're both good. The iPad's software and ecosystem is more mature, but I'm already curious what Honeycomb and possible WebOS and Windows `Phone'-based tablets will look like. That's when the pressure is really on.

For smart phones, these are already exciting times, both, Apple and Google have very aggressive road maps. And now Microsoft is pushing back in. WebOS has been given another shot. And RIM also tries not to lose its customer base. For tablets, the situation is much harder to predict.

[freudling]

Regardless of the differences we have on this topic, this video review is the best I have seen. It showcases how the Tab almost looks like something from the future with all the cool software and widgets.

YouTube - Samsung Galaxy Tab "REAL REVIEW"

Prediction for tablets. Like smartphones, marketshare will be broken up. What will hurt Apple in the tablet OS marketshare is by not fixing the problems we have discussed with the hardware of the iPad. Once fixed, Apple will end up having a 15-20% marketshare on the tablet market boasting WebOS, WP7, BB, Android, and, in the future, perhaps MeeGo. WP7 and Android leading. That's because they license their OS and will be on more devices, in addition to being very good OSes in their own right.

MeeGo is a tad behind and is more meant for smartphones so it's a question mark when it will be on tablets.

BB will have some marketshare because of how dominant they are in the smartphone marketplace, but they will lose out to iOS because their tablet OS looks pretty hackish. If anything, I'd peg them at last place eventually for tablets.

WebOS is really the interesting thing. It will be neck and neck with iOS because of how well it translates to a tablet. With lots of RAM and processing power, it's really an amazing OS. With HP backing it, it's certainly going to sit well with consumers. I think it will sell extremely well with the right hardware.

Of course, if MS doesn't get WP7 onto tablets, I'd bet on Android and WebOS as the top tablet OSes, followed by iOS.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Of course, if MS doesn't get WP7 onto tablets, I'd bet on Android and WebOS as the top tablet OSes, followed by iOS.

I was using a Pre 2 yesterday and couldn't help but think how amazing webOS 2.0 would be on a tablet (or any device with a screen larger than 3.2").

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

I was using a Pre 2 yesterday and couldn't help but think how amazing webOS 2.0 would be on a tablet (or any device with a screen larger than 3.2").

The lack of success of webOS is a bit of a mystery to me: when it was released, it was neck-and-neck with iOS, besting it in some areas. It was also the first to place such emphasis on aggregating all social data (e. g. from your contacts and facebook friends) into a single place.

[Spheric Harlot]

As I mentioned over in the other, now identical, thread, I think bullshitting their way into syncing via iTunes really discredited the company and device OS.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

The lack of success of webOS is a bit of a mystery to me: when it was released, it was neck-and-neck with iOS, besting it in some areas. It was also the first to place such emphasis on aggregating all social data (e. g. from your contacts and facebook friends) into a single place.

The hardware is just so lackluster. The Pre 2 is what the Pre Plus should have been. Otherwise, yes, until iOS 4, webOS was easily ahead of the game. Supported multitasking from day 1, excellent integration with 3rd party networks, which is even better with JustType. If they can knock out some killer hardware I think it'd have Apple and Google running.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

As I mentioned over in the other, now identical, thread, I think bullshitting their way into syncing via iTunes really discredited the company and device OS.

I think it's actually awesome how they did it (and it it doesn't require hardly any groundwork at all thanks to iTunes and the hardware). Kudos to them. The average consumer won't care though.

[Spheric Harlot]

It was awesome until it broke. And then worked again. And then broke again. And then worked again. And then Palm went crying to the USB nannies, who told them to **** off and stop stealing others' vendor IDs.

What happened after that? Is it working now?

I stopped following the idiocy at that point - I have a child of my own to be concerned with.

[imitchellg5]

No idea the status now. Palm never advertised it as a feature, so I don't think it really matters in the end.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

The hardware is just so lackluster. The Pre 2 is what the Pre Plus should have been. Otherwise, yes, until iOS 4, webOS was easily ahead of the game. Supported multitasking from day 1, excellent integration with 3rd party networks, which is even better with JustType. If they can knock out some killer hardware I think it'd have Apple and Google running.

When the Palm Pre came out, the hardware was pretty decent if I remember correctly. The built quality wasn't up to Apple's standards, but it was pretty good. The only downside was the hardware keyboard.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

When the Palm Pre came out, the hardware was pretty decent if I remember correctly. The built quality wasn't up to Apple's standards, but it was pretty good. The only downside was the hardware keyboard.

Well you have to remember that there was a huge amount of time between when Palm announced the Pre at CES and when it actually shipped in June 2009. In between those 6 months the iPhone 3GS had come out as well as many high-end Android devices that made the Pre's industrial design and processor seem childish. If the Pre had shipped when it was announced we may be looking at a different market today.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

When the Palm Pre came out, the hardware was pretty decent if I remember correctly. The built quality wasn't up to Apple's standards, but it was pretty good. The only downside was the hardware keyboard.

I agree. They could have had a better, thinner design, with a larger screen if they ditched the physical keyboard on the Pre.

Palm had a lot of bad press leading up to the Pre. The iTunes debacle hurt them also, and that was also when iOS had a lot of momentum. So a combination of factors.

Now that HP has it, this is going to be interesting. HP could come up with some really good designs perched on solid hardware that would make WebOS scream. WebOS just seems so perfect for a tablet. Since iOS 4.2 is really the same as the rest, it looks and feels the same... I don't see any real radical departures from the current lipstick iOS for another year. HP should have their slate out by latest 6 months from now. So they could get some solid marketshare before Apple has a chance to release something radical for their tablet.

That's why I think HP/WebOS has a real opportunity in the tablet space.

[imitchellg5]

If HP doesn't show a webOS tablet at CES, it's going to be a rough year for Palm.