[ambush]

NYT
Conservative Web logs were lacerating Mr. Lucas over the film's perceived jabs at President Bush - as when Anakin Skywalker, on his way to becoming the evil Darth Vader, warns, "If you're not with me, you're my enemy," in an echo of Mr. Bush's post-9/11 ultimatum, "Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/19/mo...rssnyt&emc=rss

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Lucas said he didn't do it on purpose.

[ambush]

you're right he's going to say he did it on purpose and lose profits?

even funnier:

A little-trafficked conservative Web site about film, Pabaah.com - for "Patriotic Americans Boycotting Anti-American Hollywood" - added Mr. Lucas to its list of boycotted entertainers, along with more than 200 others, including Jane Fonda, Susan Sarandon, Sean Penn and the Dixie Chicks.

[Millennium]

I haven't seen the movie yet, but I've read the novelization, and it is very easy to draw anti-Bush parallels. Whether or not Lucas intended this is certainly debatable, but I don't think he did. The parallels are easy to see, but they're still very subtle, and subtlety is not Lucas' strong point. Had he actually tried to write in anti-Bush parallels then the dialogue would contain references to "ancient Terran politicians" and the word "neoconservatism" would appear at least once. The Clone Wars would be all about oil or whatever they use to power their ships, and Palpatine wouldn't be nearly as articulate.

None of that happens, though, so I honestly don't think Lucas intended for these parallels to be there. They're just there. I wonder if these boycotting groups would accept donations in the form of tickets?

[Big Mac]

Preexisting thread alert

[RAILhead]

Yes, since Bush coined the phrase "you're for me or against me" and nothing of the sort has ever been said or written in Human History.



Maury

[jld]

Bush portrays the war on terror so simplistically (good=white hats, bad=black hats), that it's not surprising some sci-fi Movie got so close.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by Millennium

I haven't seen the movie yet, but I've read the novelization, and it is very easy to draw anti-Bush parallels. Whether or not Lucas intended this is certainly debatable, but I don't think he did. The parallels are easy to see, but they're still very subtle, and subtlety is not Lucas' strong point. Had he actually tried to write in anti-Bush parallels then the dialogue would contain references to "ancient Terran politicians" and the word "neoconservatism" would appear at least once. The Clone Wars would be all about oil or whatever they use to power their ships, and Palpatine wouldn't be nearly as articulate.

None of that happens, though, so I honestly don't think Lucas intended for these parallels to be there. They're just there. I wonder if these boycotting groups would accept donations in the form of tickets?

Maybe it's just me but I was under the impression Star Wars was supposed to "happen" a long time ago in a galaxy far far away?..

Reference to ancient Terran politics would have been.. well. Impossible.

cheers

W-Y

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

Maybe it's just me but I was under the impression Star Wars was supposed to "happen" a long time ago in a galaxy far far away?..

Reference to ancient Terran politics would have been.. well. Impossible.

That's my point; Lucas isn't the type to let silly things like space and time stop him.

[AB^2=BCxAC]

Originally Posted by RAILhead

Yes, since Bush coined the phrase "you're for me or against me" and nothing of the sort has ever been said or written in Human History.

:rolleyes"

Maury

Of course he didn't coin it. It's a terrible cliche. But he chose to use it in international diplomatic usage. What's worse: the phrase used as a precursor to ultimatums and wars in a movie or in real-life?

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by Millennium

That's my point; Lucas isn't the type to let silly things like space and time stop him.

Perhaps, I don't know George Lucas all that well.

I haven't seen Episode III yet but I'll be looking out for political references. In movies, like in books and art in general metaphors are used to express something rather than direct references. I would expect any criticism on current political affairs to be contained in metaphors in this SW movie rather than in direct reference.



cheers


W-Y

[wdlove]

A little too much about nothing. Anyway this is way in the future and another galaxy.

[moodymonster]

Originally Posted by wdlove

A little too much about nothing. Anyway this is way in the future and another galaxy.

its a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away

[ambush]

might be in the future, be it's been written by someone who still lives..

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by wdlove

A little too much about nothing. Anyway this is way in the future and another galaxy.

Do you somtimes feel it is difficult for you to hear criticism against George W Bush and/or his administration and/or party?

cheers

W-Y

[budster101]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

Do you somtimes feel it is difficult for you to hear criticism against George W Bush and/or his administration and/or party?

cheers

W-Y

Where do you conclude that wdlove has a problem with criticism of George W. Bush and/or his administration and/or party? (Based on her post.)

Are you trying to provoke her? It's not possible. She is far too nice.

[Zimphire]

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by budster101

Where do you conclude that wdlove has a problem with criticism of George W. Bush and/or his administration and/or party? (Based on her post.)

Are you trying to provoke her? It's not possible. She is far too nice.

She is? Funny, I always thought she was a he

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...fe#post2503988

but then again, she might be a .. uh sexually liberal (liberated?) "she".

Tell me budster101 do you have a problem with people asking wdlove if she/he has a problem with people citicising George W Bush and/or his administration and/or his party?

P.S. I agree wdlove is a very nice person

cheers

W-Y

[chris v]

We need to defeat the filibuster so we can appoint us some judges who will interpret the constitution strictly enough to outlaw them hollywood Ivory Tower Librul ee-lights.

Please send this to pol/war before I psot again!!

[Zimphire]

Lucas denies it, so this is just again, an example of the Bush haters seeing "Bush is bad" in everything they see.

[PacHead]

The terrorists remind me of jawa people.

[effgee]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

Lucas denies it, so this is just again, an example of the Bush haters seeing "Bush is bad" in everything they see.

Doesn't the article primarily talk about wingnuts who are upset about Lucas? Poobah (or whatever the f*** their name is), Drudge, etc. ... no twisting words outside the poli sewer, er ... lounge.

**wagsfinger**

[macintologist]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

Lucas denies it, so this is just again, an example of the Bush haters seeing "Bush is bad" in everything they see.

Or visa versa?

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by macintologist

Lucas denies it, so this is just again, an example of the Bush haters seeing "Bush is bad" in everything they see

Or visa versa?

Everything seen by Bush haters is bad Bush because Lucas denies it?

Wha...?

[RAILhead]

Oh yeah:

[Gamoe]

You know, I caught on to this too in the movie, however, I do not think that it was a political statement, but rather a general philosophical one, and the current state of things (wars started without consent of the people, without any real reason, and the ridiculous patriotic talk (if you're not with me..) sadly happen to coincide with what Lucas (rightly so) considers wrong (the dark side).

I think sometimes purely political thought clouds people's judgments. Specifics are important, but think in abstracts too, in ideas, rather than people and places. Then, you will be able to see through to the truth. Says so, Yoda does.

[sideus]

Originally Posted by RAILhead

Oh yeah:

I am not anti-bush!

[macintologist]

Originally Posted by RAILhead

Everything seen by Bush haters is bad Bush because Lucas denies it?

Wha...?

Bush-lovers interpret anything remotely connected to Bush as more examples of Bush hatred by the liberal media elite.

[budster101]

You categorized me like many others as "Bush-Lovers". I am, but only in one respect, and it isn't related to the president of the USA...

I like President Bush, but there are things I disagree with him on. Well, right now only one thing.
The borders.

As far as the movie "Star Wars" goes. I could care less if there were or were not any inferences about Bush, it wouldn't make the movie any worse or better, as the acting sucks and as I have overstated before, Lucas relies too heavily on CG. What happened to the genius that made Star Wars Episode IV? As a teenager at the time, it was amazing! He ruined the franchise by introducing bad acting and too much fluf characters like Jar-Jar, and reediting his work... Think about that scene in the cantina when Harrison Ford shoots first in the original and then second in the remake. What is that crap?

If a movie is good, I'll see it. Nobody goes to see a movie about politics... unless the movie is about politics only...

[greenamp]

Yeah because the phrase "those who aren't for us are against us" and it's variants are obviously so new to the english language.

[AB^2=BCxAC]

Originally Posted by greenamp

Yeah because the phrase "those who aren't for us are against us" and it's variants are obviously so new to the english language.

you're just not reading the whole thread, are you?

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by RAILhead

Oh yeah:

We thank you for that constructive post RAILhead

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by jld

Bush portrays the war on terror so simplistically (good=white hats, bad=black hats), that it's not surprising some sci-fi Movie got so close.

It is that simple. The ultimatum "either you are with us or against us ......." is so simple and straightforward, that even the dumbest people on the planet, no matter how backwards or primitive they may be will be able to comprehend this message.

Anybody who even remotely takes the side of the scum we are fighting, deserves what's coming to them.

[AB^2=BCxAC]

Originally Posted by PacHead

It is that simple. The ultimatum "either you are with us or against us ......." is so simple and straightforward, that even the dumbest people on the planet, no matter how backwards or primitive they may be will be able to comprehend this message.

And still miss all the nuance that made me feel ashamed a president in this day and age would incriminate millions of people based on subjective, unaccountable and racist characterizations.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by AB^2=BCxAC

And still miss all the nuance that made me feel ashamed a president in this day and age would incriminate millions of people based on subjective, unaccountable and racist characterizations.

Bush has never said anything racist, unless you have proof of course.

If you want to listen to racist scumbags, then listen to what our enemies say.

[effgee]

Ok, then - this turd is starting to reek. Anyone care to call the movers?

[demograph68]

Lucas doesn't have the balls to take a political stance on it because it would probably disenfranchise a portion of the fan base and lose money for him. Or then again, I'm just cynical so whatever... don't forget your popcorn and kitkats.

[turtle777]

Must-hold-back-plus-one-posting...

-t

[demograph68]

Originally Posted by turtle777

Must-hold-back-plus-one-posting...

You are out of plus ones. No more from you ever again. Can you deal with it?

[Ratm]

Originally Posted by ambush

you're right he's going to say he did it on purpose and lose profits?

Yea, bush coined that phrase.

Don't most of Americans and the world HATE bush.
Yea a couple million really aren't that important.

[ghporter]

1) George W. Bush did NOT coin the phrase "you're either with me or against me." He, like MANY other people through the years, used something like it.

2) The journey of Anakin from nice kid to dark lord has been well and widely known for what, almost 30 years now? When we first met Darth Vader, Jimmy Carter was president! The arc of Anakin's fall to the dark side has been fairly common knowledge-though without the details-for a long, long time. In fact, we've known about this part of the saga since the mid '80s.

3) George Lucas had the basic story outlined WAY BACK THEN, and has finally made the movies he envisioned to tell that story.

4) Just about any neocon "pundit" that draws connections between a Star Wars story and political commentary in the U.S. today either has far too much time on his hands, or a serious crack problem-or both.

5) The very idea is hooey. Get over the hype; they're only making noise about it for attention.

[iLikebeer]

6) The argument would make more sense if the emperor said it, not Darth Vader.

Originally Posted by RAILhead

Thank you RAILhead. I just thought there were too many posts in a row w/out this pic again.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally Posted by RAILhead

Oh yeah:

oooh consecutive posts... twice as nice

[Sir Arthur Dent]

Originally Posted by RAILhead

Oh yeah:

Going for the hat trick.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by ghporter

2) The journey of Anakin from nice kid to dark lord has been well and widely known for what, almost 30 years now? When we first met Darth Vader, Jimmy Carter was president! The arc of Anakin's fall to the dark side has been fairly common knowledge-though without the details-for a long, long time. In fact, we've known about this part of the saga since the mid '80s.

3) George Lucas had the basic story outlined WAY BACK THEN, and has finally made the movies he envisioned to tell that story.

The basic arc of these movies was already planned, but the Anakin-as-a-metaphor-for-the-American-populace nuance was still decades from being born.

I hadn't heard the conservative moaning, but the idea struck me too. You've got a main story dealing with a runaway democracy fueled by war, the with-me/against-me cliché — and just seconds later, Anamerikin stops just short of calling the Jedi "the Axis of Evil" and is told by Obi-Wan that "only a dark lord sees the world in absolutes" (despite this being the central premise behind the original movies' light-side/dark-side morality).

Quite frankly, Lucas is enough of a screwball that I don't know whether this is for real, but I wouldn't take his word for it either way.

[SubGeniux]

Lucas, while none too subtle in SS movies, is very astute when discussing politics in person. Of course this film isn't solely about Bush, it is, in part, a very clever commentary on the US of the last 50 years, especially the Bush years (father and monkey-boy son). It looks at what has gone in the past, and what a given course of action, if continued on this path, can lead to.

It's not about that one line from the movie; it's the very tone, the fabric of the movie that tells us this.

Lucas has always maintained that the prequels were merely a back-story to a back-story, which have obviously taken on new forms over the years as he built up the framework for the new movies. Let's not forget that the machinations of the US today aren't that different to those of Lucas' world in the 70's. Hell, even the politicians in Bush's government had a place in power back then.

Only someone with their head up their arse will fail to see the parallels between the US and the film.


It's subtle, and not too subtle (Lucas can do subtlety when he desires it, let's not pretend he can't).

To put it simply. The Emperor embodies the administration (be it Republican, .or Democrat), the formation of the new type of governance. The Jedi, the people, and the separatists, are the pawns. The Jedi could be likened to those who notice that all is not what it seems in the world, but are helpless to act upon it.

Yes, we could pick apart the dialogue and be "absolute" in deciding whether this holds a commentary on the US of today; but if you stand back and look at the weaving of the story, you can't fail to notice how obvious the similarities between these things, is.

So what if he is making a point in the film? Is derision of this proving that we are slowly ebbing ourselves away from criticism? Isn't that part of the story in the movies?

[ghporter]

SubGeniux, it looks like you have far too much time on your hands! Why can't a story be just a story? Of course we're discussing this on the Internet, so that probably means we ALL have far too much time on our hands! Sigh...

[rezonate]

Ok, I'll jump into this. I don't post much here, but I do read up quite a bit.

Let me say this first. I (on and off) work for George Lucas (ILM), have done for nearly a decade. I've spent a great deal of time in his company, as well as his friends.

I can tell you for a fact that the current political mood in the US did play a part in these movies, especially in ROTS. George is careful in what he says and is an extremely private individual, so you don't always get to the brunt of the matter when reading newspaper or magazine interviews which ask him "what do you mean by this?" type of questions. He is careful not to mislead in an egregious way, or expand too much on the question posed, but answer the question as it is exactly said. Think about that line for a sec.

Now this isn't to say that the films are just about politics, and particularly American politics. But at a certain level they do touch upon George's personal thoughts on world issues.

Yeah we can walk into it and think "ack, it's just a movie" and you'd be correct. Walk away with the surface melodrama being acted out on the screen in your head. But as a film maker, he most certainly does employ, and inject his own personal opinions into his films. You don't make a movie of this length without doing so.


Also, when we drew up some of the characters, we used George's thoughts on who they could represent in the real world, what characteristics they have, similarities between them and others, etc. It's a standard part of story telling, especially in Star Wars. That's not for every character though.

If you want to walk away with only a fantasy film, that is fine. If you want to read into it what many are saying, that's cool too. It is just a movie, but the man behind it is not a robot, He does have his beliefs and like most film makers, it comes out on the screen.

So yeah, the movie is about many things, draws upon many ideas, thoughts, and representations in the real world, and becomes a Star Wars movie.

Go enjoy it.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally Posted by rezonate

Ok, I'll jump into this. I don't post much here, but I do read up quite a bit.

Let me say this first. I (on and off) work for George Lucas (ILM), have done for nearly a decade. I've spent a great deal of time in his company, as well as his friends.

I can tell you for a fact that the current political mood in the US did play a part in these movies, especially in ROTS. George is careful in what he says and is an extremely private individual, so you don't always get to the brunt of the matter when reading newspaper or magazine interviews which ask him "what do you mean by this?" type of questions. He is careful not to mislead in an egregious way, or expand too much on the question posed, but answer the question as it is exactly said. Think about that line for a sec.

Now this isn't to say that the films are just about politics, and particularly American politics. But at a certain level they do touch upon George's personal thoughts on world issues.

Yeah we can walk into it and think "ack, it's just a movie" and you'd be correct. Walk away with the surface melodrama being acted out on the screen in your head. But as a film maker, he most certainly does employ, and inject his own personal opinions into his films. You don't make a movie of this length without doing so.


Also, when we drew up some of the characters, we used George's thoughts on who they could represent in the real world, what characteristics they have, similarities between them and others, etc. It's a standard part of story telling, especially in Star Wars. That's not for every character though.

If you want to walk away with only a fantasy film, that is fine. If you want to read into it what many are saying, that's cool too. It is just a movie, but the man behind it is not a robot, He does have his beliefs and like most film makers, it comes out on the screen.

So yeah, the movie is about many things, draws upon many ideas, thoughts, and representations in the real world, and becomes a Star Wars movie.

Go enjoy it.

nice. i believe that, GL is very intelligent IMO.

if you were invlolved with these movies... can you please tell us if they test screen these movies? it seems like our criticism over 1 thru 3 could easily be remedied if they showed it to a test audience who could easily tell GL what did not work.

[rezonate]

Originally Posted by Apple Pro Underwear

nice. i believe that, GL is very intelligent IMO.

if you were invlolved with these movies... can you please tell us if they test screen these movies? it seems like our criticism over 1 thru 3 could easily be remedied if they showed it to a test audience who could easily tell GL what did not work.

Well, George does have private screenings for his friends, people at he studios, etc. Then there's the numerous press screenings and so on, but those are just prior to release.