[Ratspittle]

Hello macnn,
I have am a longtime macnn reader and occasional contributor, but recently I have a few problems. For one, the search feature on the forum is not working for me AT ALL. This may very well have something to do with things on my end, any suggestions would be helpful. Secondarily and most importantly, wtf is up with the popup ads?! Mousing over links produces the most annoying pop up ads that safari cannot block and it seems so damned intrusive (and un-maclike). I understand that you need to make some revenue from clicks, but realistically, I can tell you one thing, I may occasionally click on a sidebar ad, but on sheer principle I will never EVER click on a pop-up link that gets in the way of me reading a headline or a story. These ads seem very counter-productive, why annoy your readership? Please do away with them or offer a way around them.
I love this website, but please fix this issue.
RS

[Chuckit]

Search works for me. Are you using the simple search from the navigation bar or the advanced search?

[Peter]

I just use URLs like this to search MacNN. That way there is no character limit.

[red rocket]

If you don't like pop‑ups, why don't you turn off JavaScript? It's beyond useless anyway, if you need to turn it on for the one in a billion websites that actually uses it in an intelligent way, it's easy enough, and for everything else, browsing the web with the POS turned off makes for a generally faster and more pleasurable experience, in my opinion.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Ratspittle 

These ads seem very counter-productive, why annoy your readership? Please do away with them or offer a way around them.

That's because macNN in their wisdom inserted ad links in the editorial content. They tried this nonsense in the forums and only the very vocal reaction of the users stopped them. These things are the work of the devil and I for one refuse to use any site that implements them.

[analogika]

Search does NOT WORK if you are not logged in.

However, the way you find this out is fundamentally broken:

You open forums.macnn.com.

You click the Search link and enter your search terms.

No results; instead, you are directed to the Advanced Search page.

Once you've tried the Advanced Search page about three times without any results and decide that the fact that it's simply BROKEN might have to do with being at a public terminal at work and not logged in, you

Click on the "Log In" link at the top.

Which doesn't work.

So, after wasting five or more minutes, you either a) just ****ing give it up, or b) return all the way to the beginning and log in from there, THEN search.

[reader50]

I can confirm the above. Search works if you are logged in. When you search while logged out, it fails with no error message. This caught me a few days ago, I tried to research something and it kept coming back to the Search page instead of showing results.

[Ratspittle]

Well that's good to know. That was probably the problem as far as search goes. Seems like a pain though, is there a legit reason why only registered members may search?

And as far as turning off javascript (to deny popups), I guess that's good for some folks, but other than this site it has never really caused me any grief, and I'd just as soon not have to worry about turning it back on again if I need it for a certain site. Fact of the matter is, the pop-ups are just annoying and counter-productive. Although the forums here are great, MacMinute looks more enticing every day for my general Mac news.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by red rocket 

If you don't like pop‑ups, why don't you turn off JavaScript? It's beyond useless anyway, if you need to turn it on for the one in a billion websites that actually uses it in an intelligent way, it's easy enough, and for everything else, browsing the web with the POS turned off makes for a generally faster and more pleasurable experience, in my opinion.

Are you kidding? A *ton* of websites use Javascript. The "j" in AJAX stands for javascript, you know...

[KeriVit]

For the record, search doesn't work in Safari 1. Which I am stuck on with my laptop because the OS is 10.3.9

[red rocket]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Are you kidding? A *ton* of websites use Javascript. The "j" in AJAX stands for javascript, you know...

A ton of overly complicated and annoying to use websites, you mean. I personally use THREE websites that require me to have JavaScript on. One's a file host, the second's an online tracing app I find useful at the moment, the third is YouTube. Oh wait, I rarely use YouTube, so make that two websites out of the hundreds I visit on a daily basis. I switched from MacUpdate to Versiontracker because they started using JavaScript. Then there's the fact that Safari 1.x tends to crash frequently when it encounters JavaScript, which has led me to actually use a second browser for those few sites.

AJAX, who cares? It's worse than Flash. Scourge of the web, as far as I'm concerned. You're not going to tell me that your browsing experience somehow revolves around Flickr and Gmail, are you? For me, the Internet is 99% about information gathering and networking, all of which can be done quite nicely without JavaScript or some clunky AJAX web app built on top of it.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by KeriVit 

For the record, search doesn't work in Safari 1. Which I am stuck on with my laptop because the OS is 10.3.9

Can't you use Safari 3 standalone ?

Apple - Safari 3 Public Beta - Download

-t

[Peter]

they dont let you download it for Mac OS X anymore ...

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by Peter 

they dont let you download it for Mac OS X anymore ...

Not only that, but the Safari 3 beta required 10.4 anyway.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Person Man 

Not only that, but the Safari 3 beta required 10.4 anyway.

Yeah, I looked for min. OS information, but couldn't find it.

Too bad Apple only offers Safari 3 with 10.4.11. It would have been a nice move to offer it for 10.3.x as well...

-t

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by red rocket 

A ton of overly complicated and annoying to use websites, you mean. I personally use THREE websites that require me to have JavaScript on. One's a file host, the second's an online tracing app I find useful at the moment, the third is YouTube. Oh wait, I rarely use YouTube, so make that two websites out of the hundreds I visit on a daily basis. I switched from MacUpdate to Versiontracker because they started using JavaScript. Then there's the fact that Safari 1.x tends to crash frequently when it encounters JavaScript, which has led me to actually use a second browser for those few sites.

AJAX, who cares? It's worse than Flash. Scourge of the web, as far as I'm concerned. You're not going to tell me that your browsing experience somehow revolves around Flickr and Gmail, are you? For me, the Internet is 99% about information gathering and networking, all of which can be done quite nicely without JavaScript or some clunky AJAX web app built on top of it.

Red Rocket, tell us what you think AJAX is. It's not clear to me that you know... Hint: it has nothing to do with Flash...

If you disable Javascript in your browser, you will have problems with many websites and web apps, period. This is not going to change either.

If Safari 2.x had a weak JS implementation, Safari 1.x no doubt was even worse... Why are you using Safari 1.x anyway?

[red rocket]

1. Did I say it had anything to do with Flash? No.

2. We seem to be using the web differently. I don't have problems with ‘many’ websites, perhaps you'd like to enlighten us as to what these ‘many’ sites you actually use that rely on JavaScript are?

3. 10.3.9.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Red Rocket, tell us what you think AJAX is. It's not clear to me that you know... Hint: it has nothing to do with Flash...

I don't think he was saying it was like flash. At least that isn't what I read from his post. But thanks again for correcting people on this forum with your knowledge.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by red rocket 

1. Did I say it had anything to do with Flash? No.

2. We seem to be using the web differently. I don't have problems with ‘many’ websites, perhaps you'd like to enlighten us as to what these ‘many’ sites you actually use that rely on JavaScript are?

All of the so called "Web 2.0" apps rely on JS heavily - Facebook, Google apps, Flickr, any site that uses JS based drop-down menus, etc.

Please tell me why AJAX is evil, and for that matter, what AJAX is.

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by red rocket 

You're not going to tell me that your browsing experience somehow revolves around Flickr and Gmail, are you? For me, the Internet is 99% about information gathering and networking, all of which can be done quite nicely without JavaScript or some clunky AJAX web app built on top of it.

I think he just did

Originally Posted by besson3c 

All of the so called "Web 2.0" apps rely on JS heavily - Facebook, Google apps, Flickr, any site that uses JS based drop-down menus, etc.

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Please tell me why AJAX is evil, and for that matter, what AJAX is.

I'm surprised you don't know - being someone who seems to proclaim great knowledge of progamming
here's a link to aquaint yourself
Wikipedia

[besson3c]

MacNerd: not interested in the fight you are trying to pick with me, thanks.

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

MacNerd: not interested in the fight you are trying to pick with me, thanks.

Who said anything about a fight. You had asked what AJAX was and I was nice enough to post a wiki

[Cold Warrior]

personally as a web user, I like AJAX. It adds faster and better interaction.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

Who said anything about a fight. You had asked what AJAX was and I was nice enough to post a wiki

I know exactly what AJAX is, thanks.

What it sounds like is being confused is the difference between Javascript and AJAX. There is nothing evil about AJAX, but I can see how some might object to certain Javascript uses.

If you really do think AJAX is evil, you'd have to make an argument about why web applications should not behave like Desktop applications, and why http GET and POST (entire page fetches) are optimal for driving sophisticated web applications.

More and more sites are moving towards a more AJAXy approach to designing applications. If you disable Javascript, you are crippling your browser with these sites, and as more and more sites are being modernized to exploit the benefits of not having to reload an entire page to make a call to the server backend, this will become even more of a losing battle.

So, if you still want to make an argument against AJAX, MacOSNerd, I'd love to hear it.

BTW, you didn't post a "wiki", you posted a page from the Wikipedia. The Wikipedia is a wiki.

[Kevin]

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I know exactly what AJAX is, thanks.

No Problem I'm glad I could help

If you really do think AJAX is evil, you'd have to make an argument about why web applications should not behave like Desktop applications, and why http GET and POST (entire page fetches) are optimal for driving sophisticated web applications.

since I don't use AJAX, I really don't care about it, i.e., Its not good or evil in my mind since I'm not a programmer

So, if you still want to make an argument against AJAX, MacOSNerd, I'd love to hear it.

No need and if you read through my exhaustive post I made no such statement. I did not make a case for or against it. As I said, I'm not programming, so I have no need to worry about such things and I don't care about it to be honest.

BTW, you didn't post a "wiki", you posted a page from the Wikipedia. The Wikipedia is a wiki.

Now your splitting hairs because you're upset I had to help find out what AJAX stood for by linking a wiki.

[besson3c]

MacOSNerd: what was your purpose in chiming in then? To inform me that a Wikipedia page about what AJAX is exists? Duh.. like I wouldn't have realized this?

[Ratspittle]

boys! boys!!! Simmer down. I go away for the weekend and come back to see my precious thread all bloated up with ego You guys are too much!
I think what it all boils down to is, if you want your site to be desirable to ALL readers (JS users (including AJAX lovers) and JS haters) GET RID OF THE FCKING POP-UPS MACNN....regardless of what we think about JS, everyone hates them!
And should not have to go out of my way for anything just to be able to read an article on macnn or anywhere else.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Ratspittle 

boys! boys!!! Simmer down. I go away for the weekend and come back to see my precious thread all bloated up with ego

Pretty much sums it up. On both sides of the argument.

[red rocket]

Besson.

Could you kindly explain what it is with your obsession with AJAX?

Your repeated calls for me to explain what it is (as if you had any rational justification for continuing to assume I didn't know) quite frankly are coming off as a puerile knee‑jerk response that you have to resort to in absence of any decent arguments in favour of it.

‘Web 2.0,’ c'mon. As if the Web would collapse if it weren't for Facebook, Flickr, Myspace and Google apps.

JS‑based drop‑down menus, Christ. Who the hell needs that rubbish?

I just like clean web design, and I also like to know exactly what's happening. JS and AJAX, apart from their typical implementation as a for‑the‑hell‑of‑it visual annoyance and usability disaster, can potentially (and, let's face it, do in actuality) record far too much data about visitors' online activities for me as a security‑conscious individual to trust sites that use them.

[Kevin]

red rocket the easiest way to find out what a person does for a living is usually by seeing what software/os/etc he is so zealous about. If you make a living dealing with AJAX or javascript, or picking berries, you are going attempt to take up for said fruit, or coding method because that is how you make your dough. That is your contribution to this world.

No one wants to believe their contribution is wrong, or not needed, or bad.

So you get the knee-jerking defensiveness.

For example, try to tell any Windows based IT guy that loves his job that Linux is better. Simply wont happen. Said IT guy doesn't want to believe he is running a 2nd rate system.

I've seen this go on for years in here.

Take the user badidea
He works for Airbus, and is a staunch defender of the A380. I can respect that. I can respect a man that is proud of what he does.

But you are right. One shouldn't be condescending or spiteful about it. Nor should one attack members because of this pride, or insecurity. Because they both produce the same results most of the time.

So my guess is by attacking JS and AJAX, you are (not on purpose I am sure) making besson feel like you are attacking his work. What he gives to society. Now, some wont be bothered by such comments, while others will get defensive about them. Why? I don't know.

BTW this post was not an attack on besson. As I have respect for people that take pride in what they do.

Having said that, sometimes I think we can be too prideful to the point where it can turn into or seem like insecurity.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Mastrap 

They tried this nonsense in the forums and only the very vocal reaction of the users stopped them.

One of the few times everyone in the forum agreed.

BTW hasn't Safari came with a popup blocker for awhile now? Since version 2 atleast?

I NEVER get popups here or anywhere else. And I have javascript on because I like the little GUI rollover actions.

It was the first javascript code I had ever learned back in the day.

I was doing a webpage for a wireless ISP called "MegaFire". It used microwaves to send it's customers access. Of course it had like a 7 or so mile coverage, so it basically made up of two towns.

But man oh man was it fast. This was in 99-2001. Anyhow I make a cool javascript image thing that whenever you hovered over a link, the "communications" tower would start broadcasting signals until you clicked it, then it would send.

Pretty tacky for today's standards (and probably back then too) but i was impressed and so was the ISP. That is until they went under. Said site never saw the light of day.

[MacosNerd]

Forget it, not worth it.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

Forget it, not worth it.

I read what you said before. And he does.

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

I read what you said before. And he does.

Yeah he was having a hissy fit because I posted a link informing him of what AJAX stood for. I opted not too post anything else - wasn't worth it. Like any other forum here at 'NN I can add a post to a thread even if he doesn't think I should

[Ratspittle]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

BTW hasn't Safari came with a popup blocker for awhile now? Since version 2 atleast?

I NEVER get popups here or anywhere else. And I have javascript on because I like the little GUI rollover actions.

.

Kevin I was referring to these, see img below, and as far as I know safari cannot block them... it's a mouseover action not a "pop-up window"

[Cold Warrior]

that's intellitext. An ad-blocking solution (e.g., Ad Subtract CSS or Firefox's Adblock Plus) will stop them.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by red rocket 

Besson.

Could you kindly explain what it is with your obsession with AJAX?

Your repeated calls for me to explain what it is (as if you had any rational justification for continuing to assume I didn't know) quite frankly are coming off as a puerile knee‑jerk response that you have to resort to in absence of any decent arguments in favour of it.

‘Web 2.0,’ c'mon. As if the Web would collapse if it weren't for Facebook, Flickr, Myspace and Google apps.

JS‑based drop‑down menus, Christ. Who the hell needs that rubbish?

I just like clean web design, and I also like to know exactly what's happening. JS and AJAX, apart from their typical implementation as a for‑the‑hell‑of‑it visual annoyance and usability disaster, can potentially (and, let's face it, do in actuality) record far too much data about visitors' online activities for me as a security‑conscious individual to trust sites that use them.

The point I was trying to make was very simple: there is a difference between Javascript and AJAX. You can have AJAX on the most simple of page designs in a way that is literally invisible to the user - no way of telling it is being used at all. I don't think this is what you are complaining about.

I think your main beef is with Javascript, although you have not made this clear. I'm debating what you have actually said, but am open to the possibility that what you have said is not really what you meant to say.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

Yeah he was having a hissy fit because I posted a link informing him of what AJAX stood for. I opted not too post anything else - wasn't worth it. Like any other forum here at 'NN I can add a post to a thread even if he doesn't think I should

No, I was having a "hissy fit" because I'm tired of the fact that you don't like me and lack the capacity (or interest) in expressing yourself in a way that conveys why this is so, and using stupid little posts like your above posts as a substitute.

If you don't like me, figure out why and tell me so that I can consider whether or not to change the way I behave. Otherwise, don't emote your confusion and lack of understanding in the form of trolling remarks. It is not my problem that you are unable to express yourself.

Just posting a link to add to the discussion MacOSNerd? Comon... that is bullshit, and you know it. How does that explain this comment of yours to me:

I'm surprised you don't know - being someone who seems to proclaim great knowledge of progamming
here's a link to aquaint yourself

That is a hostile remark which *you* made and *you* should be accountable for. Deal with it.

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

No, I was having a "hissy fit" because I'm tired of the fact that you don't like me and lack the capacity (or interest) in expressing yourself in a way that conveys why this is so, and using stupid little posts like your above posts as a substitute.

Sure sounds like a hissy fit too me

Just posting a link to add to the discussion MacOSNerd? Comon... that is bullshit, and you know it. How does that explain this comment of yours to me:

You mean to tell me I cannot add a post to an existing thread because you don't deem it worthy.

Let me quote you

Please tell me why AJAX is evil, and for that matter, what AJAX is.

Too that post I added a hyperlink to wikipedia since you were asking

Perhaps we need a official bession review committee to determine if posts meet a certain criteria before they are deemed worthy to be seen but the unwashed masses

Finally I don't dislike you besson so you can give up the woe is me attitude. I've only disagreed with your position from time to time and you take that disagreement as hate??? Perhaps you're not ready for the big bad internet.

[besson3c]

MacOSNerd: this is going nowhere - I'm not buying your lame justification. Why don't you ignore me and I'll do the same. Cool?

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

MacOSNerd: this is going nowhere - I'm not buying your lame justification. Why don't you ignore me and I'll do the same. Cool?

I have no problem if you wish to ignore me, I choose not too, but like I said feel free to add me to your ignore list. You'll miss the lively repartee though.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

I have no problem if you wish to ignore me, I choose not too, but like I said feel free to add me to your ignore list. You'll miss the lively repartee though.

Well then, how about restraining yourself from putting me on the defensive until you understand why you wish to do so and can explain this?

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Well then, how about restraining yourself from putting me on the defensive until you understand why you wish to do so and can explain this?

No thanks

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Ratspittle 

Kevin I was referring to these, see img below, and as far as I know safari cannot block them... it's a mouseover action not a "pop-up window"

Ah see that is different than a popup. You guys are getting these in MacNN? Where? I've never seen one on the forums. But yeah, I'd find a way to block them ASAP if a page I read daily had them.

Worst. Idea. Ever. And it really shows a lack of respect to your readers.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

No, I was having a "hissy fit" because I'm tired of the fact that you don't like me and lack the capacity (or interest) in expressing yourself in a way that conveys why this is so, and using stupid little posts like your above posts as a substitute.

If you don't like me, figure out why and tell me so that I can consider whether or not to change the way I behave. Otherwise, don't emote your confusion and lack of understanding in the form of trolling remarks. It is not my problem that you are unable to express yourself.

Just posting a link to add to the discussion MacOSNerd? Comon... that is bullshit, and you know it. How does that explain this comment of yours to me:

That is a hostile remark which *you* made and *you* should be accountable for. Deal with it.

besson this post came out as just as hostile or more so than his. Does two wrongs make a right?

And realize it or not, you were being condescending towards him. That is why you got the reaction you did.

[red rocket]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I think your main beef is with Javascript, although you have not made this clear. I'm debating what you have actually said, but am open to the possibility that what you have said is not really what you meant to say.

Of course my main beef is with JavaScript, I thought I'd made that abundantly clear. You're the one who brought AJAX into the conversation, remember?

[Kevin]

Yeah I was going to say. I don't know how clearer you could have been.

I think everyone knew what red rocket was complaining about. I just think what you said red kinda offended besson cause you were belittling basically what he does for a living. So he struck back in self defense.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by red rocket 

Of course my main beef is with JavaScript, I thought I'd made that abundantly clear. You're the one who brought AJAX into the conversation, remember?

It was you that wrote this:

AJAX, who cares? It's worse than Flash. Scourge of the web, as far as I'm concerned. You're not going to tell me that your browsing experience somehow revolves around Flickr and Gmail, are you? For me, the Internet is 99% about information gathering and networking, all of which can be done quite nicely without JavaScript or some clunky AJAX web app built on top of it.

[Kevin]

He was commenting that his comment was just about javascript. That you brought in the AJAX conversation. That his main gripe was with javascript.

In short this was how the conversation went. (I know, been used to death but it suits perfectly here)



He complained about not liking features in Javascript. And that if said person doesn't like said feature to turn it off. You came in and started spazzing on him about it saying that there are more things to javascript than just that particular complaint yadda yadda.

We realize what you do for a living. I for one respect someone that takes pride in their work. But I think you are going a bit over-board with your defensive stance.

Since you DID act kinda snotty and condescending towards him, he replied in like. Not that two wrongs make a right. But when talking to people in such a manner, you tend to get responses like he gave you. Take it as a lesson learned. Maybe be nicer and less condescending to people you are talking to? Maybe?