Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Turkish Newspaper Repeatedly Compares Schily with Hitler (large JPEG)

Turkish Newspaper Repeatedly Compares Schily with Hitler (large JPEG)
Thread Tools
TETENAL
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: FFM
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 10, 2005, 01:25 PM
 
( Last edited by TETENAL; Mar 10, 2005 at 01:30 PM. )
     
TETENAL  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: FFM
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 10, 2005, 01:41 PM
 
The German minister of the interior Otto Schily has forbidden a radical-islamistic newspaper that was published in Germany (in Turksish language). Now the Turkish edition of the newspaper "Vakit" (don't say that loud) is repeatedly comparing Schily with Hitler and publishes headlines like "The 2nd Nazi-epoch" and "Arbitrariness of law typical for Hitler" together with composite photographs that show Schily as Nazi and caricatures.

The paper is distributed in machines of the national Turkish Airlines.

Schily has sent a complaint to his Turkish colleague Abdulkadir Aksu.
     
analogika
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: 888500128
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 11, 2005, 05:11 AM
 
And this in the same week as reports of Turkish police forces *beating* down a massive - and peaceful - pro-women's-rights demonstration in Istanbul...
     
Twilly Spree
Senior User
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 21, 2005, 03:14 PM
 
Ah yea, Turkey that modernized muslim country that is gonna be a shoe-in to the European Union.

I don't understand why the Europeans are even considering that backwater shithole as a member state.

To each his own I guess.
     
Macrobat
Mac Elite
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Raleigh, NC
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Mar 21, 2005, 04:12 PM
 
OMG!!! They must not have gotten the memo that it's only acceptable to compare President Bush to Hitler!
     
LiquidSnake
Fresh-Faced Recruit
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Istanbul
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 6, 2005, 10:48 PM
 
Originally posted by Twilly Spree:
Ah yea, Turkey that modernized muslim country that is gonna be a shoe-in to the European Union.

I don't understand why the Europeans are even considering that backwater shithole as a member state.

To each his own I guess.
Behave your self!
Click here to visit my photo's
PowerMac G5Dual 2.0-2 GbRam& 160&400 HDD
MacBook Pro 17 inch Glossy 2 gig Ram
PowerBook 12 inch 1 ghz 768 MbRam
Sony VGA-A270 17 inch wuxga 1gbRam Radeon9700
     
Twilly Spree
Senior User
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 7, 2005, 03:12 PM
 
Originally posted by LiquidSnake:
Behave your self!
You make your bed, you sleep in it.
     
Anders
Forum Regular
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 7, 2005, 05:20 PM
 
Originally posted by Macrobat:
OMG!!! They must not have gotten the memo that it's only acceptable to compare President Bush to Hitler!
I know americans are ethnocentric* but not everything in the world is about your president.

*A joke
Bush lost the first debate because Kerry brought his own pen
     
Anders
Forum Regular
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 7, 2005, 05:29 PM
 
Originally posted by Twilly Spree:
Ah yea, Turkey that modernized muslim country that is gonna be a shoe-in to the European Union.

I don't understand why the Europeans are even considering that backwater shithole as a member state.

To each his own I guess.
To get a more peaceful europe. The last 15 years of european history has taught at least one thing. The prospect of getting into the rich boys club can make countries do amazing things. The disappointment of not having the chance make them do terrible things.

When US want to change the way a country behaves you guide it with bombs and the threat of it. We go the other way.
Bush lost the first debate because Kerry brought his own pen
     
LiquidSnake
Fresh-Faced Recruit
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Istanbul
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 7, 2005, 05:48 PM
 
Originally posted by Twilly Spree:
You make your bed, you sleep in it.
Get a life.
Click here to visit my photo's
PowerMac G5Dual 2.0-2 GbRam& 160&400 HDD
MacBook Pro 17 inch Glossy 2 gig Ram
PowerBook 12 inch 1 ghz 768 MbRam
Sony VGA-A270 17 inch wuxga 1gbRam Radeon9700
     
Weyland-Yutani
Mac Elite
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: LV-426
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 8, 2005, 07:43 AM
 
Originally posted by LiquidSnake:
Get a life.
He's right actually. I live in the EU and quite frankly Turkey isn't ready to join. Not by a long shot.

Many nice people there, but the culture, the level of society, recent history and current events show the true face of Turkey. It is best kept alone, outside the Union. We didn't build this Union to have Turkey destroy it from within as would certainly happen would it be allowed to join. Dealing with the integration Eastern European countries is difficult enough, but at least they share our mindset, values, history, culture even continent. Even the Eastern European airlines are a lot safer than THY. I can't think of one thing Turkey could possibly have to offer to the EU that would make them consider in all seriousness Turkey as a full member.

Every single Eastern European country will become fully integrated with time. It is inevitable. Ironically they'll most likely become fully integrated EU members before E-Germany becomes fully integrated with Germany. A lot has been learned from that, I should hope. Turkey will just have to make it in the world on its own merits. It will not piggyback on us.

Before you go all nuts and accuse me of being a follower of some nasty (write your own)-ism, I'm just being practical. It all boils down to the following line:

Turkey simply does not have what it takes to be allowed to join the EU.

Simple as that.

“Building Better Worlds”
     
Weyland-Yutani
Mac Elite
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: LV-426
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 8, 2005, 07:50 AM
 
Originally posted by Anders:
To get a more peaceful europe. The last 15 years of european history has taught at least one thing. The prospect of getting into the rich boys club can make countries do amazing things. The disappointment of not having the chance make them do terrible things.

When US want to change the way a country behaves you guide it with bombs and the threat of it. We go the other way.
Peaceful Europe? Am missing something? I live Europe too you know. A a matter of fact I've often been to Denmark as well (I don't lived there thogh). Copenhagen, Aarhus, Aalborg. Peaceful places. What the hell are you talking about, if pardon my french?

What heck do you fear? What "terrible" things could Turkey do? Are you for real??

“Building Better Worlds”
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 8, 2005, 07:54 AM
 
Originally posted by Weyland-Yutani:
He's right actually. I live in the EU and quite frankly Turkey isn't ready to join. Not by a long shot.

Many nice people there, but the culture, the level of society, recent history and current events show the true face of Turkey. It is best kept alone, outside the Union. We didn't build this Union to have Turkey destroy it from within as would certainly happen would it be allowed to join. Dealing with the integration Eastern European countries is difficult enough, but at least they share our mindset, values, history, culture even continent. Even the Eastern European airlines are a lot safer than THY. I can't think of one thing Turkey could possibly have to offer to the EU that would make them consider in all seriousness Turkey as a full member.

Every single Eastern European country will become fully integrated with time. It is inevitable. Ironically they'll most likely become fully integrated EU members before E-Germany becomes fully integrated with Germany. A lot has been learned from that, I should hope. Turkey will just have to make it in the world on its own merits. It will not piggyback on us.

Before you go all nuts and accuse me of being a follower of some nasty (write your own)-ism, I'm just being practical. It all boils down to the following line:

Turkey simply does not have what it takes to be allowed to join the EU.

Simple as that.
What are you talking about?

In particular, do you know anything about the integration of the Eastern part of Germany into Germany compared to other Eastern countries?

I suggest you simply drive from Western Germany through the East, Poland, etc. Just watch. And feel the road. My Polish friends call the main road (it's not a highway) still Hitlerstra�e (Hitler's road), simply because that's when it was constructed.

Also, compare Turkey to other countries that are supposed to join the EU (in particular Bulgaria, Romania, etc.).
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Weyland-Yutani
Mac Elite
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: LV-426
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 8, 2005, 08:08 AM
 
Originally posted by OreoCookie:
What are you talking about?

In particular, do you know anything about the integration of the Eastern part of Germany into Germany compared to other Eastern countries?

I suggest you simply drive from Western Germany through the East, Poland, etc. Just watch. And feel the road. My Polish friends call the main road (it's not a highway) still Hitlerstra�e (Hitler's road), simply because that's when it was constructed.

Also, compare Turkey to other countries that are supposed to join the EU (in particular Bulgaria, Romania, etc.).
Are you denying that the integration of E-Germany has been a lot less successful than was hoped for?

Comparing Turkey to the E-European countries is.. absurd. But yeah if you want to do that then Turkey fails in all conceivable categories.

“Building Better Worlds”
     
TETENAL  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: FFM
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 8, 2005, 08:26 AM
 
Originally posted by Weyland-Yutani:
Are you denying that the integration of E-Germany has been a lot less successful than was hoped for?
The "integration" of East-Germany is a disaster. The abrupt raising of the standard of living to western standards has immediately killed the East-German economy without any chance of recovery. East-Germany has an unemployment rate of 25% and rising. The infrastructure that OreoCookie is seeing is paid by the West.

The eastern European countries are slowly increasing the standard of living in correspondance to the growth of their economy. That means that their standard of living is lower now, but that exactly allows their economy to grow naturally.
     
von Wrangell
Professional Poster
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Under the shade of Swords
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 8, 2005, 08:30 AM
 
I quite frankly don't care if Turkey enters the Union or not. But one thing is for certain and that is that we should keep that option open.

Why you might ask. It's simply because keeping it open will keep pressure on Turkey to move in the right direction(which they are already doing but perhaps a bit slowly).

Another option is to stop expanding the Union itself and start some kind of proxy union with countries close being offered various economic and political incentives for various developments in their countries. That proxy union would then involve North African countries, the rest of Eastern Europe and ME countries closest to us. Doing that would keep their political influence out of the Union while still offering them the economic and political benefits of it.

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 8, 2005, 08:45 AM
 
Originally posted by Weyland-Yutani:
Are you denying that the integration of E-Germany has been a lot less successful than was hoped for?

Comparing Turkey to the E-European countries is.. absurd. But yeah if you want to do that then Turkey fails in all conceivable categories.
Less successful than hoped for, but still light-years ahead (in terms of living standards) compared to other Eastern European countries. In fact, it's the luckiest formerly Communist country, because it's the only one with a rich brother.

Comparing Turkey to other European countries is not absurd. You can compare levels of corruption, production costs, etc. There is a reason you see Turkish construction workers even in Russia (as a sub contractor to -- say -- a German construction company). In terms of those, Turkey is very competitive (and far ahead when it comes to things like legal certainty).

As they are already associated with the EU, granting a full membership is not the earth shattering step you may want to make it seem like.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Macrobat
Mac Elite
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Raleigh, NC
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 8, 2005, 10:43 AM
 
Originally posted by Anders:
I know americans are ethnocentric* but not everything in the world is about your president.

*A joke
It's called "sarcasm," an established form of "humor" try looking it up.

No one said anything about "everything being about our president."

It just strikes me as ironic in the extreme that nothing is said when Bush is compared to Hitler repeatedly, many of you who are griping about Shilly's comparison actually applaud the comparison to Bush.

See - that would be the "point" I was trying to make.

Thus endeth the lesson.
     
Anders
Forum Regular
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 8, 2005, 03:52 PM
 
Sorry you didn�t get my point
Bush lost the first debate because Kerry brought his own pen
     
Twilly Spree
Senior User
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 9, 2005, 03:41 PM
 
Originally posted by Anders:
To get a more peaceful europe. The last 15 years of european history has taught at least one thing. The prospect of getting into the rich boys club can make countries do amazing things. The disappointment of not having the chance make them do terrible things.

When US want to change the way a country behaves you guide it with bombs and the threat of it. We go the other way.


What are you talking about? Last time I was in France things seemed pretty peaceful. Same in Spain, Norway and Italy.

Last time I was in Turkey it was pretty bad. Istanbul and Ankara and the west coast tourist resorts don't reflect Turkey as a whole. Perhaps you should go there before you make up your mind about them.
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 9, 2005, 04:01 PM
 
Originally posted by Twilly Spree:


What are you talking about? Last time I was in France things seemed pretty peaceful. Same in Spain, Norway and Italy.

Last time I was in Turkey it was pretty bad. Istanbul and Ankara and the west coast tourist resorts don't reflect Turkey as a whole. Perhaps you should go there before you make up your mind about them.
Have you been more to the East, too? Zagreb, Bukarest, etc.?
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Twilly Spree
Senior User
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 10, 2005, 01:55 PM
 
Originally posted by OreoCookie:
Have you been more to the East, too? Zagreb, Bukarest, etc.?
Prague, yes. Peaceful. Are there open riots in Zagreb and Bukarest?
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 11, 2005, 06:24 AM
 
Originally posted by Twilly Spree:
Prague, yes. Peaceful. Are there open riots in Zagreb and Bukarest?
Not open, but take a look at the assassination of late Prime Minister Djinjic. In both countries, the mafia has permeated most layers of businesses, ditto for corruption. In Romania, you have to take various gifts to government offices to get things done (depending on what you want, everything from eggs, cheese, food to money).

Also, up until recently, when a company renewed cables (for electricity) in an effort to renew the infrastructure, it became public property, hence making any private effort to help rebuilding (Romania in this case) impossible.

Turkey's laws are far more mature and people doing business in Turkey have legal certainty, in Eastern countries, they do not.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Weyland-Yutani
Mac Elite
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: LV-426
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 11, 2005, 09:51 AM
 
Originally posted by OreoCookie:
Not open, but take a look at the assassination of late Prime Minister Djinjic. In both countries, the mafia has permeated most layers of businesses, ditto for corruption. In Romania, you have to take various gifts to government offices to get things done (depending on what you want, everything from eggs, cheese, food to money).

Also, up until recently, when a company renewed cables (for electricity) in an effort to renew the infrastructure, it became public property, hence making any private effort to help rebuilding (Romania in this case) impossible.

Turkey's laws are far more mature and people doing business in Turkey have legal certainty, in Eastern countries, they do not.
...

so by admitting Turkey into the Union things will get more peaceful in Europe?

What thas Turkey got to do with the Mafia in E-Europe? Laws mean nothing if they are not followed. Just ask Turkey about their fine human rights laws. Then ask the Kurds if these laws are followed.

In fact it is ironic that Turks would call someone a nazi, seeing as it was the Turkish genocide of Armenians that inspired the German nazis to do the same to Jews. Calculated, co-ordinated and systematic eradication of a group of people. To this day Turkey does not admit doing so.

Then there is Cyprus. Turkey is occupying a member country of the EU and they want to join the Union? Are they nuts? I think it is quite clear that we (the EU) don't need or want Turkey as a member. The Turkish people that want to immigrate are welcome to do so, but on our terms. Turkey will have to be a satillite of the EU or make its own union with countries in the Middle-East.

What next? Israel in the EU? I mean why not if Turkey is applying for membership. Israel is in the Eurovision song contest too!


“Building Better Worlds”
     
Weyland-Yutani
Mac Elite
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: LV-426
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 11, 2005, 10:03 AM
 
Originally posted by OreoCookie:
Not open, but take a look at the assassination of late Prime Minister Djinjic. In both countries, the mafia has permeated most layers of businesses, ditto for corruption. In Romania, you have to take various gifts to government offices to get things done (depending on what you want, everything from eggs, cheese, food to money).

Also, up until recently, when a company renewed cables (for electricity) in an effort to renew the infrastructure, it became public property, hence making any private effort to help rebuilding (Romania in this case) impossible.

Turkey's laws are far more mature and people doing business in Turkey have legal certainty, in Eastern countries, they do not.
Adem�s, Romania is not a member country in the EU.

They are:

Austria (peaceful)

Belgium (peaceful)

Cyprus (peaceful, except for the fact that Turkey is occupying - illegally - a part of this EU country)

Czech Republic (peaceful)

Denmark (peaceful)

Estonia (peaceful)

Finland (peaceful)

France (peaceful)

Germany (peaceful)

Greece (peacful - if a dash corrupted - but a part of the national soul)

Hungary (peaceful)

Ireland (peaceful)

Italy (peaceful but like in neighboring Greece corruption is a part of the national soul)

Latvia (peacful)

Lithuania (peaceful)

Luxembourg (peaceful)

Malta (peacful)

Poland (peacful)

Portugal (peaceful)

Slovakia (peaceful)

Slovenia (peaceful)

Spain (peaceful - when the Basques are behaving)

Sweden (peaceful)

The Netherlands (peaceful - excepting the odd assisination by a crazed muslim - we must need more muslims!)

United Kingdom (peaceful)

“Building Better Worlds”
     
von Wrangell
Professional Poster
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Under the shade of Swords
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 11, 2005, 10:15 AM
 


You seriously need some education on the Cyprus issue before you open your mouth(or type more) again.

Here's a good start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus_dispute

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 11, 2005, 10:32 AM
 
Originally posted by Weyland-Yutani:
Adem�s, Romania is not a member country in the EU.

...

United Kingdom (peaceful)
Romania has filled out its application and if things continue like this, it will become a member next time the EU will expand. So it is perfectly legitimate (and useful) to compare it to Turkey which also wants to become a member. Why is (in your opinion) Romania more suited to become a member than Turkey?

Your list of peaceful or not so peaceful is not so useful. (You are forgetting about the Christian conflict in Ireland, the assassination of right-wing politicians in the Netherlands by a non-Muslim (religion seems to be important to you ).) Last time I checked, it was the Greek part that voted against the reunification of the island as a whole (bringing the whole peace process to a halt), so I would suggest that you start reading up on the various conflicts within Europe.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
von Wrangell
Professional Poster
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Under the shade of Swords
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 11, 2005, 10:40 AM
 
Originally posted by OreoCookie:
Last time I checked, it was the Greek part that voted against the reunification of the island as a whole (bringing the whole peace process to a halt), so I would suggest that you start reading up on the various conflicts within Europe.
From the link above:

Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (Turkish)_
Yes - 64.90%
No - 35.09%
Turnout - 87%

Republic of Cyprus (Greek)_
Yes - 24.17%_
No - 75.83%_
Turnout - 88%

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
Weyland-Yutani
Mac Elite
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: LV-426
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 11, 2005, 01:31 PM
 
Originally posted by von Wrangell:


You seriously need some education on the Cyprus issue before you open your mouth(or type more) again.

Here's a good start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus_dispute
Indeed. Looks like you've been reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wise_ass_comments



I know the Cyprus conflict perfectly well. You should read up on UN resolution 353 and resolution 37/253. Also the UNSC has declared the TRNC invalid and does not recognize it. Turkey however does.

If you support Turkey in this, Herr von Wrangell then you are a mighty big hypocrate since you expect Israel to respect UN resolutions. Even Israel respects the UNSC resolutions.

The only legitamate part of the Island is the Republic of Cyprus. The northern part consists of the Turkish minority calling itself Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. This is not recognized by the UNSC or the EU. Turkey has to this day an occupation force in Cyprus and does so illegally. Turkey is also the only country that recognizes the TRNC.

In effect Turkey is occupying a part of a sovreign country (as recognized by the UN) in the EU itself. This is not acceptable. Besides the fact that Turkey will have to withdraw their illegal occupation of Cyprus this is one of the things that makes it unthinkable to accept Turkey into the EU.

This is akin to Mexico occupying San Diego while expecting to be accepted into the United States!

“Building Better Worlds”
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 11, 2005, 01:52 PM
 
Originally posted by Weyland-Yutani:
Indeed. Looks like you've been reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wise_ass_comments



I know the Cyprus conflict perfectly well. You should read up on UN resolution 353 and resolution 37/253. Also the UNSC has declared the TRNC invalid and does not recognize it. Turkey however does.

If you support Turkey in this, Herr von Wrangell then you are a mighty big hypocrate since you expect Israel to respect UN resolutions. Even Israel respects the UNSC resolutions.

The only legitamate part of the Island is the Republic of Cyprus. The northern part consists of the Turkish minority calling itself Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. This is not recognized by the UNSC or the EU. Turkey has to this day an occupation force in Cyprus and does so illegally. Turkey is also the only country that recognizes the TRNC.

In effect Turkey is occupying a part of a sovreign country (as recognized by the UN) in the EU itself. This is not acceptable. Besides the fact that Turkey will have to withdraw their illegal occupation of Cyprus this is one of the things that makes it unthinkable to accept Turkey into the EU.

This is akin to Mexico occupying San Diego while expecting to be accepted into the United States!
The crisis could have been solved, and the majority of the Turkish part was supporting the solution whereas the large majority of the Greek part was against it.

This just points to the fact that both, Greece and Turkey, are not free of conflict (as are other areas in Europe, such as both parts of Ireland, etc.), and this is one conflict Europe can solve in the interests of both countries.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Weyland-Yutani
Mac Elite
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: LV-426
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 11, 2005, 10:31 PM
 
Originally posted by OreoCookie:
The crisis could have been solved, and the majority of the Turkish part was supporting the solution whereas the large majority of the Greek part was against it.

This just points to the fact that both, Greece and Turkey, are not free of conflict (as are other areas in Europe, such as both parts of Ireland, etc.), and this is one conflict Europe can solve in the interests of both countries.
I don't see Greece illegally occupying a part of a sovereign country that is an EU member.. The Republic of Cyprus is not Greece btw. It is a sovereign entity.

We are talking about whether Turkey should join the Union and why/why not. Northern Ireland and the conflict there is centuries old but Ireland does not claim the Northern part and after all the World recognizes for better or worse that N-Ireland is a part of the UK.

The Cyprus conflict and Turkey's illegal occupation of the northern part of the island is one of the deal-brakers for joining the EU. It is that simple OreoCookie. The EU does not need Turkey nearly as much as Turkey thinks it needs the EU.

Then there is the matter of the Kurds and the treatment of Armenians in the early 20th century. Then there are the matters of complete disrespect for human rights. Then there are the security issues of making the borders of the EU touch Syria, Iran and Iraq. Practically difficult to manage such a long border compared to the Mediterranian and Istanbul.

The list goes on and on. Let's look at the situation in 200 years and see if they are ready then. I wouldn't bet on it.

And again I ask: how will admitting Turkey into the EU make Europe more peaceful? That has to be the most far out comment in the entire thread!

“Building Better Worlds”
     
analogika
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: 888500128
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2005, 03:47 AM
 
Originally posted by Weyland-Yutani:
The Netherlands (peaceful - excepting the odd assisination by a crazed muslim - we must need more muslims!)
I think this gives a hint as to where your real problem lies.

Fact is, 4.5 million Turks ALREADY live in the EU, 2.5 million of those alone in Germany.

We are NOT at the brink of civil war.
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2005, 06:26 AM
 
Originally posted by Weyland-Yutani:
I don't see Greece illegally occupying a part of a sovereign country that is an EU member.. The Republic of Cyprus is not Greece btw. It is a sovereign entity.

We are talking about whether Turkey should join the Union and why/why not. Northern Ireland and the conflict there is centuries old but Ireland does not claim the Northern part and after all the World recognizes for better or worse that N-Ireland is a part of the UK.

The Cyprus conflict and Turkey's illegal occupation of the northern part of the island is one of the deal-brakers for joining the EU. It is that simple OreoCookie. The EU does not need Turkey nearly as much as Turkey thinks it needs the EU.

Then there is the matter of the Kurds and the treatment of Armenians in the early 20th century. Then there are the matters of complete disrespect for human rights. Then there are the security issues of making the borders of the EU touch Syria, Iran and Iraq. Practically difficult to manage such a long border compared to the Mediterranian and Istanbul.

The list goes on and on. Let's look at the situation in 200 years and see if they are ready then. I wouldn't bet on it.

And again I ask: how will admitting Turkey into the EU make Europe more peaceful? That has to be the most far out comment in the entire thread!
Turkey is one of the most modern country in the Middle East. If they mature their flavor of democracy, they'll be a role model for others. Just like in Greece, the EU will be a desirable asset.

Anyway, Turkey is associated for years now and compared to a full membership, it won't make much of a difference as most people aren't aware of that. However, a full membership -- as has been promised over the course of 40 years -- is desirable to keep Turkey moving to the right direction.

Just because it is a predominantly Muslim country, it is treated differently and the problems are blown up as if all this was new. On the other hand, the EU seems too eager to have less stable and less suitable countries join.

The EU does a lot of business with Turkey and we do need Turkey.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Weyland-Yutani
Mac Elite
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: LV-426
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2005, 09:20 AM
 
Originally posted by analogika:
I think this gives a hint as to where your real problem lies.

Fact is, 4.5 million Turks ALREADY live in the EU, 2.5 million of those alone in Germany.

We are NOT at the brink of civil war.
Excuse me, instead of hinting perhaps you could just tell the class what you think my problem is?


“Building Better Worlds”
     
Weyland-Yutani
Mac Elite
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: LV-426
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2005, 09:46 AM
 
Originally posted by OreoCookie:
Turkey is one of the most modern country in the Middle East. If they mature their flavor of democracy, they'll be a role model for others. Just like in Greece, the EU will be a desirable asset.

Anyway, Turkey is associated for years now and compared to a full membership, it won't make much of a difference as most people aren't aware of that. However, a full membership -- as has been promised over the course of 40 years -- is desirable to keep Turkey moving to the right direction.

Just because it is a predominantly Muslim country, it is treated differently and the problems are blown up as if all this was new. On the other hand, the EU seems too eager to have less stable and less suitable countries join.

The EU does a lot of business with Turkey and we do need Turkey.
Saying Turkey is the most modern country in the Middle East makes as much sense as saying Groucho was the most serious of the Marx brothers.

I notice too that they have since what 1923 matured their own flavor of democracy all by themselves. Certainly marked by numerous military coups and muslim fundamentalist takeover attempts they've managed to create their flavor all by themselves. That just proves Turkey doesn't need to be in the EU to develop democracy. So why even bring that up as a point?

And as you say, Turkey is in fact in the Middle East - we'd soon have to drop the "European" part of the name but I recon you don't mind. Perhaps we should start negotiations with Israel to join the Union? They are certainly very advanced in the Middle East and have a democracy. They're the bestest buddies of the USA like Turkey as well.

Turkey and Israel have more in common. Thos two countries are the only ones the rest of the Middle East more or less despises and will never take as role models. Thinking Turkey will be a shining beacon of Democratic light in the ME is never going to happen. Turks are not arabs. Turks are also the ex-conquerors of the arabs. Ottoman empire and all that. Most Turks are Muslims, certainly but that doesn't automatically make them arabic. They are as much arabs as they are Europeans. Not in any significant way, that is.

It is a valuable asset to the EU as a source of relatively cheap labor, a buffer between the EU and the Middle East and a tourist resort. Turkey has no conceivable value to the EU as a member nation. Simple as that.

Turkey will move in the right direction regardless of their status with the EU. They have been a semi-democracy for more than 80 years already. They are not about to fall into despotism or civil war if we don't admit them into the EU. If I were Turkish I'd call you a mildly racistic purpose. The Turks are a proud nation with an impressive history. They can take care of themselves and they will. They are a NATO nation and have good communication and business with the EU. Better than they even deserve.

That just doesn't change the fact that the EU doesn't need them, they will do fine if not better by staying outside the Union and they will not fall into civil war if they are told no. And they will be told no. A theoretical membership of Turkey is in any case not going to happen until after 20 years. The EU is going to make Turkey wait for another 20 years no matter what. After these 20 perhaps Turkey will be admitted, most likely they'll be made to wait another 20.

A Turkish membership in the EU will solve no muslim PR problems the EU may or may not have.

A Turkish mambership on those grounds would do as much damage to the EU as could be imagined without simply dibanding the altogether. I have already listed the reasons, they span economy, safety, culture and future vision for the EU.

There is not ONE country that has been admitted into the EU that was not better suited than Turkey. Economically, socially, culturally, geographically and with regard to safety. There are still countries like Norway outside the EU. Maybe you should spend more effort in trying to get them inside, for example. That would be beneficial for the EU and all its members. Courting Turkey is bananas.

“Building Better Worlds”
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2005, 09:51 AM
 
Originally posted by Weyland-Yutani:
Excuse me, instead of hinting perhaps you could just tell the class what you think my problem is?

[hint]Take a look at the quote[/hint]
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Weyland-Yutani
Mac Elite
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: LV-426
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2005, 09:58 AM
 
Originally posted by OreoCookie:
[hint]Take a look at the quote[/hint]
Ya well I'm sure analogika can explain better because you can't.


“Building Better Worlds”
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2005, 10:36 AM
 
Originally posted by Weyland-Yutani:
Saying Turkey is the most modern country in the Middle East makes as much sense as saying Groucho was the most serious of the Marx brothers.

I notice too that they have since what 1923 matured their own flavor of democracy all by themselves. Certainly marked by numerous military coups and muslim fundamentalist takeover attempts they've managed to create their flavor all by themselves. That just proves Turkey doesn't need to be in the EU to develop democracy. So why even bring that up as a point?

And as you say, Turkey is in fact in the Middle East - we'd soon have to drop the "European" part of the name but I recon you don't mind. Perhaps we should start negotiations with Israel to join the Union? They are certainly very advanced in the Middle East and have a democracy. They're the bestest buddies of the USA like Turkey as well.

Turkey and Israel have more in common. Thos two countries are the only ones the rest of the Middle East more or less despises and will never take as role models. Thinking Turkey will be a shining beacon of Democratic light in the ME is never going to happen. Turks are not arabs. Turks are also the ex-conquerors of the arabs. Ottoman empire and all that. Most Turks are Muslims, certainly but that doesn't automatically make them arabic. They are as much arabs as they are Europeans. Not in any significant way, that is.

It is a valuable asset to the EU as a source of relatively cheap labor, a buffer between the EU and the Middle East and a tourist resort. Turkey has no conceivable value to the EU as a member nation. Simple as that.

Turkey will move in the right direction regardless of their status with the EU. They have been a semi-democracy for more than 80 years already. They are not about to fall into despotism or civil war if we don't admit them into the EU. If I were Turkish I'd call you a mildly racistic purpose. The Turks are a proud nation with an impressive history. They can take care of themselves and they will. They are a NATO nation and have good communication and business with the EU. Better than they even deserve.

That just doesn't change the fact that the EU doesn't need them, they will do fine if not better by staying outside the Union and they will not fall into civil war if they are told no. And they will be told no. A theoretical membership of Turkey is in any case not going to happen until after 20 years. The EU is going to make Turkey wait for another 20 years no matter what. After these 20 perhaps Turkey will be admitted, most likely they'll be made to wait another 20.

A Turkish membership in the EU will solve no muslim PR problems the EU may or may not have.

A Turkish mambership on those grounds would do as much damage to the EU as could be imagined without simply dibanding the altogether. I have already listed the reasons, they span economy, safety, culture and future vision for the EU.

There is not ONE country that has been admitted into the EU that was not better suited than Turkey. Economically, socially, culturally, geographically and with regard to safety. There are still countries like Norway outside the EU. Maybe you should spend more effort in trying to get them inside, for example. That would be beneficial for the EU and all its members. Courting Turkey is bananas.
I'm sure you are aware that countries like Spain and Portugal were the last countries in Europe that were democratized. Within relatively short time, and lots of help from European neighbors, they have become strong democracies.

If you want to know what the desire to become a member of the European family does, take a look at the former satellite states of the Soviet Union. Just now, the winds have changed in Ukraine in favor of stronger ties to the EU. In former Yugoslavia, it brought war criminals to justice, so the desire to eventually become a member does a lot of good.

You are right to ask the question: where does Europe end? And you answer it yourself. Ever noticed that Israel takes part in European championships in -- say -- athletics? A lot of common history binds Turkey and the rest together.

And then you ask what the benefits of a possible membership would be. First of all, because Turkey had to adhere to European norms and jurisdiction (take a look at what happened in the 10 newcomers' law systems) which would also level the playing field. Right now, Turkey exports two things: labor force (e. g. construction workers) and production of semi-mass produced articles, like designer shirts (for really large numbers, China et al are still cheaper). With the planned regulation on labor force exports (export of services), other European nations could protect their market and increase technology. Also, especially important for Germany (because of its millions of immigrants from Turkey), the EU could promote their anti-migration policies more effectively (ever wonder why we pour so much money to support Eastern Europe?).

You asked for one country that does worse than Turkey, and I ask you again to take a look at Bulgaria and Romania. Both countries' legal systems and economies are far less developed, and yet it is planned that both join in 2007!

Also, if a close relationship with Turkey would inflict a lot of damage to the institution of the EU, we should see it by now. As a country associated with the EU, it has many, many rights, it's visa regulations adhere to the Schengen treaty already, and so forth. It's like Mexicans don't need a visa for a layover stop in the States So, as we can see that the EU is not in a state of turmoil and chaos, I don't see any problems admitting Turkey into the EU granted that it fulfills all requirements.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2005, 10:43 AM
 
Originally posted by Weyland-Yutani:
Ya well I'm sure analogika can explain better because you can't.

Ah, well, I'll spell it out for ya.

Your quote was about the assassination by a muslim in the Netherlands. Regardless of the fact that other assassinations took place in Europe in the course of the last two, three years (e. g. March 11 in Spain committed by the ETA, the assassination of Pim Fortuyn in the Netherlands) you singled out muslims as source of trouble, thus saying Turkey doesn't fit in the EU because it is a predominantly muslim country.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
TETENAL  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: FFM
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2005, 10:53 AM
 
Originally posted by OreoCookie:
You are right to ask the question: where does Europe end?
At the Bosporus.
Originally posted by OreoCookie:
March 11 in Spain committed by the ETA
The March 11 bombing was done by Islamist terrorists.
     
cc_foo
Dedicated MacNNer
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: with pretty wife
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2005, 10:58 AM
 
I thought the original post referred to Phil Schiller. Silly me. Haha.

Phil's photo
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2005, 10:59 AM
 
Originally posted by TETENAL:
The March 11 bombing was done by Islamist terrorists.
My bad. Still doesn't change my opinion that terrorism is a peculiarity of Islam.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Weyland-Yutani
Mac Elite
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: LV-426
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2005, 11:36 AM
 
Originally posted by OreoCookie:
Ah, well, I'll spell it out for ya.

Your quote was about the assassination by a muslim in the Netherlands. Regardless of the fact that other assassinations took place in Europe in the course of the last two, three years (e. g. March 11 in Spain committed by the ETA, the assassination of Pim Fortuyn in the Netherlands) you singled out muslims as source of trouble, thus saying Turkey doesn't fit in the EU because it is a predominantly muslim country.
Why thank you

I was not making the point that Europe was on the brink of a civil war with that quote but rather that islamist fundamentalists are more likely to resort to assasinations and terrorism to try and get their point across. This seems to be the case, there are numerous examples of this. The Fortuyin and Van Gogh murders are not unique. That is why admitting a predominantly islamic country into the EU is giving in to the ideas that fuel the islamist extremists. That we Europeans can be coaxed through fear and terrorism.

That would be highly unlike us, since the UK hasn't given in to the IRA and their terrorism, Spain hasn't given in to ETA and their terrorism but rather in both these cases the terrorists have been forced to tone down and discuss their demands with the respective governments. Giving in to fear is inviting disaster. We will manage the islamic population that is already in Europe and integrate them properly into our society and culture without giving the fundamentalists an inch.

The normal muslims in Europe are those we should be talking about and talking to and simply ignore the fundamentalists. Never give them an inch. Turkish membership can be seen as an islamic victory for the fundamentalists and there is no need to give them that. Especially since we don't need Turkey as a member nation. Their membership will do nothing to settle the fundamentlist nutjobs down. If anything it might envigorate them.

That is my point.

M11 was not ETA ( you must have been listening too much to Aznar ) but was made by muslim terrorists. Also I did not single out muslims as the only source of trouble in the EU, in my list I mentioned both ETA and the IRA. I think I was pretty fair. Selecetive reading makes it seem that I singled out muslim of course

I not saying Turkey doesn't fit into the EU because it is a predominantly muslim country but that is one of the reasons it doesn't fit into the EU, certainly. There are just so many more improtant reasons why Turkey doesn't fit into the EU. The religious reson is fairly far down on that list.

“Building Better Worlds”
     
Weyland-Yutani
Mac Elite
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: LV-426
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2005, 11:38 AM
 
Originally posted by TETENAL:
At the Bosporus.
Exactly

“Building Better Worlds”
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2005, 12:12 PM
 
Originally posted by Weyland-Yutani:
...

The normal muslims in Europe are those we should be talking about and talking to and simply ignore the fundamentalists. Never give them an inch. Turkish membership can be seen as an islamic victory for the fundamentalists and there is no need to give them that. Especially since we don't need Turkey as a member nation. Their membership will do nothing to settle the fundamentlist nutjobs down. If anything it might envigorate them.

That is my point.

...

I not saying Turkey doesn't fit into the EU because it is a predominantly muslim country but that is one of the reasons it doesn't fit into the EU, certainly. There are just so many more improtant reasons why Turkey doesn't fit into the EU. The religious reson is fairly far down on that list.
A membership of secular Turkey will not strengthen the support of fundamentalists (e. g. google up something about the extradition of �calan) as the Turkish government is not interested in supporting islamic fundamentalists, but rather suppresses them (e. g. forbidding headscarves in public schools and universities).

Maybe you misunderstand my posts that I claim Turkey in its current form is fit to become a member. I'm not. But besides from fears and facts that are blown out of proportion and taken out of context, you claim, Turkey will never pass all criteria to become a full member (I know you said, you would be surprised if they make it within the next 200 years).

Only one argument I have read in your last posts has some validity: where is the border of Europe? That can (and should) be debated. For the rest, we have a catalog of criteria, and so we shall apply that catalog to Turkey as we did for the 10 newcomers and the three other candidates.

So, again, what are your other (more important) reasons not to grant Turkey a full membership? Unsolved ethnic disputes (in this way, Turkey is similar to Croatia which also hopes to become a member; I was surprised to find it listed among the candidates)? Unsolved legal problems? Because they are culturally 100 % different from `us'? (I find that this is one of the EU's biggest accomplishments: it is culturally extremely diverse and it keeps it this way, just compare Italians to Germans or British -- huge difference.)

All of the reasons are good reasons to think about it, but none of them is unique to Turkey (except the religious one -- which you say -- is pretty far down your list).
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Weyland-Yutani
Mac Elite
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: LV-426
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 12, 2005, 02:01 PM
 
The only valid argument I've made is where Europe ends??

Whoa!

That is one of the lamest arguments I had. The human rights violations, the illegal Cyprus occupation, abuse and murder of Kurds and the genocide of Armenians that Turkey has yet not admitted are all far more important than where Europe ends. I suggest you check your moral priorities.

Then there are the economic reason for barring Turkish membership.

The question where Europe ends (besides being fairly obvious and not really up for debate) is insignificant in comparison.

The European Union is no one country. It requires the full co-opertion of every single member to work. There is no majority rule, for every country has a veto right. That makes it incredibly important that all member states are on the same level. Culturally, economically, socially and so on and so forth.

We agree that Turkey is not ready to join the EU today. That is good. We disagree on the timeframe Turkey will need to become a viable EU nation. You seem to be optimistic that in 20 years they'll be ready. I'm pessimistic that they will be ready even in 200 years.

Oh well, time will tell.

PS. Ocalan was a PKK leader. A Kurdish terrorist group. Or freedom fighters. Whatever. Italy didn't want him extradited to Turkey because he'd be EXECUTED there for his crimes. Hello? This is not a country we want in the EU.

I think they'd be far more at home in the USA or something. Note that the USA supported Turkey in their claim for Ocalan's extradition from Italy - essentially to be executed after a short trial in Turkey.

How you can support such an immoral nation as Turkey is a mystery to me. I hope there are not many of my fellow Europeans that view their transgressions and lack of remorse or respect as lightly as you do. For the sake of Europe and her future.

“Building Better Worlds”
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 13, 2005, 06:33 AM
 
Originally posted by Weyland-Yutani:
The only valid argument I've made is where Europe ends??

Whoa!

That is one of the lamest arguments I had. The human rights violations, the illegal Cyprus occupation, abuse and murder of Kurds and the genocide of Armenians that Turkey has yet not admitted are all far more important than where Europe ends. I suggest you check your moral priorities.

Then there are the economic reason for barring Turkish membership.

The question where Europe ends (besides being fairly obvious and not really up for debate) is insignificant in comparison.

The European Union is no one country. It requires the full co-opertion of every single member to work. There is no majority rule, for every country has a veto right. That makes it incredibly important that all member states are on the same level. Culturally, economically, socially and so on and so forth.

We agree that Turkey is not ready to join the EU today. That is good. We disagree on the timeframe Turkey will need to become a viable EU nation. You seem to be optimistic that in 20 years they'll be ready. I'm pessimistic that they will be ready even in 200 years.

Oh well, time will tell.

PS. Ocalan was a PKK leader. A Kurdish terrorist group. Or freedom fighters. Whatever. Italy didn't want him extradited to Turkey because he'd be EXECUTED there for his crimes. Hello? This is not a country we want in the EU.

I think they'd be far more at home in the USA or something. Note that the USA supported Turkey in their claim for Ocalan's extradition from Italy - essentially to be executed after a short trial in Turkey.

How you can support such an immoral nation as Turkey is a mystery to me. I hope there are not many of my fellow Europeans that view their transgressions and lack of remorse or respect as lightly as you do. For the sake of Europe and her future.
I know who �calan is and why there were troubles for his extradition. I'm not sure about Italian law, but German law forbids extradition if the person might be sentenced to death. But it also tells you why a close relationship to the EU is useful: he was tried and he will spend time in jail.

The new European Constitution will allow for more `majority rule' (i. e. more power for the EP), easing the pain of making (impossible compromises among the 25 (+ x) members. Anyway, this is a problem of the EU per se and not again of Turkey itself.

The members of the EU are not on the same level, economically, socially. Especially the new members are such as Slovakia are very poor compared to even Poland (when I was skiing in Poland this February close to the Slovakian border, my Polish friends told me how cheap everything is in Slovakia, although Poland was very, very cheap for me as a German). Romania and Bulgaria are even farther off.

Maybe you still don't understand what I am so upset about by your (and many others') arguments: it's the two measures being used here. Economic problems of one set of countries are not discussed in such detail whereas when it comes to Turkey, they are really, really important again. The same is true for all other issues.

Also, Turkey has been lured into a closer orbit by the EU (and all its predecessors), afaik for over 40 years now (the German chancellor Adenauer was among the first). Now that things are getting serious, everybody makes a big show. Nothing you write here is new, and I certainly agree that the majority of the questions you mentioned have to be solved (among others, the problem of the Kurds). But if the EU offered a membership for such a long time, then it would be dishonest and phony to suddenly deny even negotiations.

It could very well be that the proceedings to gain a full membership will not be finished by 2014, but both, Turkey and the EU will continue to work on it. Turkey is working on improving the human rights situation and it is our (= all of Europe) duty to point our finger at every problem we see. The Cyprus problem was almost solved by a mutual agreement, too, although the Greek part of the island voted against the proposed compromise (which is well within their rights). Here, too, the catalyst was the proposed EU membership of the whole island of Cyprus (as opposed to the Greek part now).

The ethnic problems you point out are also shared by all regions where several ethnic groups mingle. Yugoslavia is one (extreme) example, but the Alsace (and Lothringen) is another (feel free to add regions like Basque and `Ireland'). The Alsace was aggressively `Frenchified' and now the majority speaks French, the minority speaks a German dialect. This was not too long ago -- French claims for the Saarland continued till the 50s (yes, 1950s). All this was solved by closer cooperation which eventually led to the European Union. It can do the same for Turkey and Greece, for the Kurds within Turkey.

And I think facts prove you wrong about the last point: there will be negotiations between the EU and Turkey so that Turkey could become a full member by 2014 the earliest. (Negotiations are supposed to start by October 2005 the latest, the only prerequisite is that Turkey signs a protocol which deals with customs procedures.)
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 13, 2005, 08:19 AM
 
In a related note, the EP decided that Bulgaria and Romania will become full EU members in 2007 (granted that the necessary paperwork is signed).
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Weyland-Yutani
Mac Elite
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: LV-426
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 13, 2005, 07:34 PM
 
Originally posted by OreoCookie:
In a related note, the EP decided that Bulgaria and Romania will become full EU members in 2007 (granted that the necessary paperwork is signed).


Good news!

PS: It doesn't matter one squat if Turkey has been made to think they could become EU members by anyone. If they don't fit then they don't fit. Nothing personal. Simple as that.

“Building Better Worlds”
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Apr 14, 2005, 05:15 AM
 
This just shows that you are not sincere about your criticism of Turkey. Talking about equal standards.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
 
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:23 PM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,