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Back to the Mac (Page 8)
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Spheric Harlot
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Oct 25, 2010, 06:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
That's exactly the point right there - discoverable. It isn't. If, for instance, the OS detected whenever you ran an app from a disk image and offered to move it to the Applications folder, add it to the Dock, and delete the disk image, then that would be discoverable.
That would be a possible solution, but it would still allow the (common) mistake of just dragging the app from the DMG onto the Dock to "install" it and THEN launch it.

The OS would have to copy the app to the application folder, check to see whether it's already been added to the Dock, and if yes, replace the icon on the Dock, and then eject/delete the DMG. Unhappy, complex solution, and only marginally better than the original concept of self-extracting DMGs that would copy an app directly to the DMG's location and then delete the DMG.

The App Store is probably by far better.
     
Wiskedjak
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Oct 25, 2010, 08:22 AM
 
I'd like to see the OS detect that the user is launching an application from a dmg and ask if they'd like to move it to the Applications folder.

App Store is a nice potential solution, but developers of a few of my favorite applications are already saying, based on the guidelines released the store, that their applications wouldn't be allowed in.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 25, 2010, 08:29 AM
 
Those are most likely apps that clueless end-users won't be needing, right?

What are the chances of an app an "average Joe" is going to need not being available on the App Store?

Can you think of any that would be denied? Honest question.
     
Twilly Spree
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Oct 25, 2010, 09:29 AM
 
No probs with the disk images in OS 9. Yeah why not distribute applications as zip files? There is no user advantage in disk images. Maybe for developers. Windows apps use this method frequently.

Dowload zip file to desktop and run the installer or copy the included folder to wherever.
     
Big Mac
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Oct 25, 2010, 04:02 PM
 
Whether it's a zip or a disk image there's still an extra step there that confuses the computing simpletons.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
CollinG3G4
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Oct 25, 2010, 04:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Whether it's a zip or a disk image there's still an extra step there that confuses the computing simpletons.
What's annoying is having to click "agree" and "continue" 10 times before the app installs! It should take 1 click after the installer opens.
     
Kerrigan
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Oct 25, 2010, 04:52 PM
 
What does everyone think about Lion's current lack of open-app indication?

Edit: not "the Lion." lol
( Last edited by Kerrigan; Oct 25, 2010 at 05:05 PM. )
     
osiris
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Oct 25, 2010, 05:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kerrigan View Post
What does everyone think about the Lion's current lack of open-app indication?
I don't like it one bit. I like to know, at a glance, what might be open.
It may be premature to pick on something like this, but I prefer 'advanced user mode' vs iOS mode on my desktop machine when it comes to Lion so far.
"Faster, faster! 'Till the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death." - HST
     
Face Ache
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Oct 25, 2010, 06:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kerrigan View Post
What does everyone think about Lion's current lack of open-app indication?

Edit: not "the Lion." lol
There has to be a method of easily seeing which apps are open.

I'm presuming the OS we saw was a bitsa, and that a more unified GUI is on its way. Why do the Quicktime and FaceTime apps have a black disappearing title-bar while the rest of the OS is still grey? Far too many inconsistencies in the GUI these days and considering 10.6 was all under-the-hood improvements, I'd imagine 10.7 is due for a respray.

So GUI-wise, here's my short list of demands:
  1. A black-themed unified GUI.
  2. A simplified iOS-based "Granny Finder" that can be easily switched off in system prefs.


Re: Spaces. Does anyone use it?
     
turtle777
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Oct 25, 2010, 06:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Face Ache View Post
Re: Spaces. Does anyone use it?
ALL the time.

Very very useful, IMO.

-t
     
hayesk
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Oct 25, 2010, 10:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kerrigan View Post
What does everyone think about Lion's current lack of open-app indication?
I don't even look at that now. It doesn't matter to me. When I want to use an app, whether it's already open or not is moot point - I have to open it anyway so I'm going to click it. I also don't go through quitting opening apps - it's never been a problem for me. If there's an app that's misbehaving in the background, I use the Activity Monitor to figure it out - I assume that will be the same in Lion.

Also, if Lion implements suspension mode well enough (like in iOS), which apps will be open will be even more of a moot point. And there's no reason apps shouldn't behave that way.

All if this monitoring of open apps, CPU usage menu extras, etc. all the time is for those who'd rather work on their computers, than with their computers. I use my computer to get work done (software development), surf the web, read my email, etc. - knowing what apps are open or not does not enhance me being able to do all that.

That said, I'd rather have an indication of which apps are misbehaving. When an app is frozen, a red indicator might be handy. The OS knows that now, because it puts a Force Quit in the contextual menu for any dock icons for apps that are locked up. Then I would instantly know there's a problem and can do something about it.

Regardless, this is early in the development of the OS - maybe they're planning big changes to the dock appearance and won't see it until later.
     
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Oct 26, 2010, 03:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by Face Ache View Post
There has to be a method of easily seeing which apps are open.
I agree, but I could use a Dashboard widget for that. Doesn't have to be in the Dock.

Originally Posted by Face Ache View Post
I'm presuming the OS we saw was a bitsa, and that a more unified GUI is on its way. Why do the Quicktime and FaceTime apps have a black disappearing title-bar while the rest of the OS is still grey?
Quicktime X has a black titlebar in SL as well, I think.

Originally Posted by Face Ache View Post
*A black-themed unified GUI.
Will only happen if Macs start looking like that as well. Might happen, given what the AppleTV looks like know, but I doubt it.

Originally Posted by Face Ache View Post
*A simplified iOS-based "Granny Finder" that can be easily switched off in system prefs.
Pretty sure that the Simple Finder was a feature in Jaguar.

Originally Posted by Face Ache View Post

Re: Spaces. Does anyone use it?
A lot of people, especially on smaller screens. Not me though, but the feature doesn't disturb anyone who doesn't use it.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 26, 2010, 04:44 AM
 
Macs *do* look like that.

Black glass is where it's at - Except for the Air and white MacBook.
     
Face Ache
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Oct 26, 2010, 05:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
Originally Posted by Face Ache View Post
There has to be a method of easily seeing which apps are open.
I agree, but I could use a Dashboard widget for that. Doesn't have to be in the Dock.
That wouldn't be simpler than a little triangle in the dock though.

Originally Posted by P View Post
Originally Posted by Face Ache View Post
Why do the Quicktime and FaceTime apps have a black disappearing title-bar while the rest of the OS is still grey?
Quicktime X has a black titlebar in SL as well, I think.
So unless Apple adopt it system-wide, we're in for a few different types of windows in the new "Lion" OS. Great.

Originally Posted by P View Post
Pretty sure that the Simple Finder was a feature in Jaguar.
Which makes something similar more sensible/likely. I hope.
     
Doc HM
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Oct 26, 2010, 12:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by CollinG3G4 View Post
What's annoying is having to click "agree" and "continue" 10 times before the app installs! It should take 1 click after the installer opens.
THIS. For example installing iLife 09 requires me to select Install, Yes, I agree, Yes, Install, Yes I agree, NINE times. Which is insane.

I've also lost track of the number of customers running skype and/or FireFox from the dmg on their desktop. Because it works they just assume that it's installed correctly.

These two issues are probably the most broken elements of App installation by far and if the new Mac App store fixes these it will be a great step forward.

Rejecting FireFox because it duplicates functionality available in an existing App, might be less praise worthy though. (worst case scenario, not suggesting this will actually happen).
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Laminar
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Oct 26, 2010, 12:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by Face Ache View Post
[*]A simplified iOS-based "Granny Finder" that can be easily switched off in system prefs.
The concept of the "Simple Finder" was introduced in OS 8.

Re: Spaces. Does anyone use it?
Yes - I have Safari set to run in one space and Mail in the other. All other apps pop up in whichever space I'm in.
     
Twilly Spree
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Oct 26, 2010, 01:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Whether it's a zip or a disk image there's still an extra step there that confuses the computing simpletons.
Then we're not talking about the same thing.
     
Brien
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Oct 26, 2010, 01:48 PM
 
I can see you point of having apps auto-move to the Apps folder, and it'd be nice since it saves a step. However as of late Apple seems to not just be making tasks more simple, but removing/locking out more advanced functionality. There's quite a few system prefs that have lost their "Advanced..." buttons since 10.2.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 26, 2010, 02:23 PM
 
Really? Which ones?
     
imitchellg5
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Oct 26, 2010, 02:50 PM
 
Last time I downloaded an app and opened it from the Downloads folder, it asked me if I wanted to move it to the Applications folder.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 26, 2010, 03:18 PM
 
That's not an OS function, though.
     
Brien
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Oct 26, 2010, 04:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Really? Which ones?
Offhand, I couldn't tell you. I do know there have been a few instances where I've gone to do something and found that the GUI was removed or well-hidden in instances it didn't use to be.
     
Face Ache
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Oct 26, 2010, 04:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
The concept of the "Simple Finder" was introduced in OS 8.
I know.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 26, 2010, 04:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Brien View Post
Offhand, I couldn't tell you. I do know there have been a few instances where I've gone to do something and found that the GUI was removed or well-hidden in instances it didn't use to be.
Yep. They've moved some stuff to make basic interface less daunting.

But I can't recall ever seeing options *removed* that I was looking for.

I'd be genuinely interested to hear if there are any.
     
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Oct 26, 2010, 04:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Face Ache View Post
Originally Posted by P
Pretty sure that the Simple Finder was a feature in Jaguar.
Which makes something similar more sensible/likely. I hope.
You misunderstand - the simple Finder is still there. Go System Preferences, Accounts, and enable a non-admin account. In the parental control settings you can enable the simple Finder for one user.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Oct 26, 2010, 04:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Yep. They've moved some stuff to make basic interface less daunting.

But I can't recall ever seeing options *removed* that I was looking for.

I'd be genuinely interested to hear if there are any.
The ability to set a preferred newsreader.

Usenet news, that is. You could set it because Apple imported the entire Internet Config third party control panel, and then Apple removed it. Eventually they moved all those settings out to the applications like Safari and Mail, so settings like preferred clients for all other protocols also got lost.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
Oisín
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Oct 26, 2010, 04:44 PM
 
^ Huh, never knew about that.

So, do you have to log out and back in to see the changes? I just tried enabling it on my account, and it didn’t really do anything …
     
P
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Oct 26, 2010, 04:45 PM
 
We must have posted in the same split second...

I think you have to log out and back in, yes. Or at least kill the Finder.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
Oisín
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Oct 26, 2010, 04:49 PM
 
Hm. Oh. Well, uh …

Maybe a full re-login is needed, ’cause when I just restarted the Finder, the desktop is just empty, and no windows will open. Very simplistic, of course, but hardly what I’d call simple, since I can’t do anything now.

Also, Safari’s still blocking access to web sites, even though I’ve since removed the parent control completely again. Meh. Re-login, here I come …
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 26, 2010, 05:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
The ability to set a preferred newsreader.

Usenet news, that is. You could set it because Apple imported the entire Internet Config third party control panel, and then Apple removed it. Eventually they moved all those settings out to the applications like Safari and Mail, so settings like preferred clients for all other protocols also got lost.
What's a … "newsreader"?

Is that like RSS or something?

(Okay, you found one.)
     
Face Ache
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Oct 26, 2010, 06:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
You misunderstand - the simple Finder is still there. Go System Preferences, Accounts, and enable a non-admin account. In the parental control settings you can enable the simple Finder for one user.
I don't misunderstand. I know all the features of every Mac OS. I was trying to guess what 10.7 might (hopefully) be like, while people on 'NN tell me features of OS 8. If anyone's missing the point, it isn't me.

But it doesn't matter anyway. Because I've just gone and rewatched the OS X part of the keynote and now I realise the new features are not for beginners. In fact 10.7 looks like it's going to be a swiping hell for everyone. I'm imagining grannies all over the planet on the phone to tech support: "I just touched my mouse and now my photos have disappeared!".

If "Mission Control" and "Launch Pad" look redundant it's because they are - "new features" for the sake of selling "new features". So yeah, we'll probably have multiple window GUIs, lollypop buttons and all that other old crap in 10.7.

I'll add that the dock triangles were probably just removed for the demo because all the apps were pre-loaded (so it looked Teh Snappy™).
     
lpkmckenna
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Oct 26, 2010, 07:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Face Ache View Post
If "Mission Control" and "Launch Pad" look redundant it's because they are
I think of Mission Control as an enhanced Expose. Right now, Expose only shows me windows in my current Space, but Mission Control will show all windows regardless of which Space. You can do that now by activiating Spaces and then Expose, but Mission Ctrl makes it one gesture. Hopefully it was also show hidden apps too.

As for Launch Pad, I reserve judgement. It could be brilliant, it could be pointless.
     
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Oct 26, 2010, 10:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Face Ache View Post
I know.
Actually, Simple Finder was introduced before MacOS 8 in an Apple product called "At Ease" which did not come with the OS. You purchased it and installed it on top of System 7.
     
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Oct 27, 2010, 12:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by hayesk View Post
Actually, Simple Finder was introduced before MacOS 8 in an Apple product called "At Ease" which did not come with the OS. You purchased it and installed it on top of System 7.
You had to pay extra to make Finder more usable?
     
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Oct 27, 2010, 01:01 AM
 
At Ease didn't make the Finder more usable. It was a restricted launching interface designed for very simple computer users.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
Laminar
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Oct 27, 2010, 01:34 AM
 
I LOVE AT EASE. I copied it off of the school's computers onto a floppy or Zip disk and installed it on my home computer to keep my sisters off of it.
     
Brien
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Oct 27, 2010, 02:38 AM
 
I hated At Ease, but I quickly figured out the admin password when it was on school computers. That was nice.
     
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Oct 27, 2010, 10:22 AM
 
So I've noticed that there is a lot of "buzz" in the online world about these amazing new MacBook Airs... which I find somewhat odd because they are really almost identical to the old one. All of a sudden people seem to be making a big fuss over the lack of a disc drive and solid state memory and what not... but the reality is that the MacBook Air has existed for a long time in almost this exact same form factor. Very little has really changed...

The biggest difference between the old Air and the new Air? Cost.

It seems to me that people are really just excited that the new Air is only ridiculously expensive as opposed to flabbergastingly insultingly expensive.

Can you imagine the hubbub if Apple lowered prices across the board? When was the last time we saw their prices go down?

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Spheric Harlot
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Oct 27, 2010, 11:37 AM
 
Actually, having just had my first hands-on with the new Airs today, I gotta say: you have no idea.

Forget the 13" model.

The 11.6" MacBook Air is just amazing.
     
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Oct 27, 2010, 12:33 PM
 
Why? What's the difference?
     
ort888
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Oct 27, 2010, 12:36 PM
 
The old Air was amazing too... it was just $600ish too expensive.

That's the point I'm making. No one made much of a fuss when that came out.

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The Final Dakar
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Oct 27, 2010, 12:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
The old Air was amazing too... it was just $600ish too expensive.

That's the point I'm making. No one made much of a fuss when that came out.
Here's a theory: Apple gets tons more media coverage now.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 27, 2010, 01:08 PM
 
That's not the difference.

The Air didn't get much more this time around.

The difference is that the 11.6" MacBook Air is INSTANTLY desirable, and priced to move.

This is not a "hm yeah but is it really worth the premium I dunno" machine; this thing is seriously tiny, and it's fully booted in 22 seconds (13 seconds for the 13" model). It feels zippy, has a fine enough resolution 1366x768 to be useful, weighs one kilo, and costs the same as a MacBook twice its weight.

If I didn't need FireWire, this thing might have been my next machine.
     
Eug
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Oct 27, 2010, 01:23 PM
 
I don't need Firewire on my laptop, but I do want it since several of my peripherals (including my CF card reader) are FW800.

However, the 11.6" is nice enough and small enough that I may get the next iteration of that.

I believe it was in another thread where I said that if I can get an updated 11.6" Air on an educational deal with a free iPod touch, I may just buy it. The only way I'd consider a Windows netbook were if it had:

1) Dual-core decent CPU
2) Decent GPU
3) Full-size keyboard
4) A price less than $500.
5) Windows 7 Home Premium or better

In other words, I think the 11.6" MacBook Air is worth about a $300 premium over a decent 11-12" Windows netbook. Interestingly, I see that some are in fact priced around here. They start about $450 for a barely acceptable dual-core model, and go up to about $800... which makes an 11.6" MacBook Air educational purchase more attractive.
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 27, 2010, 02:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
That's not the difference.

The Air didn't get much more this time around.
I think a lot more outlets with much more mainstream audiences do coverage now. To me, that'll change the outcome.
     
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Oct 28, 2010, 12:07 AM
 
You know I think there's a few factors, firstly Apple made a big deal about it, Apple hasn't made a big deal about the Air in what, two years? Secondly while most of us will look at this and think, the 13 inch MacBook gives you way more horse power, a lot of people are good on any computer released in the last four years. Especially if it's a Mac.

I think one of the nicest things about this is that it's a good reason why my original MacBook is probably not gonna loose support for OS X.7 or even X.8. I mean this thing is still more powerful than a 1.4 Ghz Air and it's four years old!

If I wasn't poor as a popper I'd consider upgrading to one of these as a secondary machine. I'm thinking I'm gonna start getting more serious about my writing and this would be great when paired with a 27 inch iMac and dropbox. Any writing I could keep in drop box and have that synced between machines, the iMac coudld be used for any real heavy lifting where as the Air is still gonna be reasonably zippy. I just don't know why they didn't do 4 gigs of RAM standard, the machine will be so much faster with it.
     
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Oct 28, 2010, 12:21 AM
 
Poppers is a slang term for various alkyl nitrites inhaled for recreational purposes, particularly amyl nitrite, butyl nitrite, isopropyl nitrite and isobutyl nitrite.
     
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Oct 28, 2010, 12:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by Salty View Post
You know I think there's a few factors, firstly Apple made a big deal about it, Apple hasn't made a big deal about the Air in what, two years? Secondly while most of us will look at this and think, the 13 inch MacBook gives you way more horse power, a lot of people are good on any computer released in the last four years. Especially if it's a Mac.

I think one of the nicest things about this is that it's a good reason why my original MacBook is probably not gonna loose support for OS X.7 or even X.8. I mean this thing is still more powerful than a 1.4 Ghz Air and it's four years old!

If I wasn't poor as a popper I'd consider upgrading to one of these as a secondary machine. I'm thinking I'm gonna start getting more serious about my writing and this would be great when paired with a 27 inch iMac and dropbox. Any writing I could keep in drop box and have that synced between machines, the iMac coudld be used for any real heavy lifting where as the Air is still gonna be reasonably zippy. I just don't know why they didn't do 4 gigs of RAM standard, the machine will be so much faster with it.
In another 2 or 3 years, the 11" could be useful to a lot of people.
     
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Oct 28, 2010, 03:17 AM
 
@Salty
CPU speed isn't everything. Since the Air comes with SSD storage, certain things are indeed faster than on your MacBook -- such as launching apps and booting up. Those are things average people will often notice more than how fast the system is on cpu-intensive tasks.

The more I think about this machine, the more it makes sense. If it weren't for Aperture, I'd be tempted to sell my current 15" MacBook Pro … 
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Salty
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Winnipeg, MB
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Oct 31, 2010, 02:35 AM
 
You're right, I had a chance to play with one of them today at the Apple Store. I was shocked with how fast it felt. If they can get the reliability of SSDs up, and maybe pair it with a small HDD for storing large files I'll consider it... Actually having an SSD in an iMac sounds like a great idea now.
     
 
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