[freudling]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

I'm not defending Apple. Apple own the iPad 2 and can tell you whatever the heck they want and leave stuff out at will. It's their call. Not yours.

First you spout "REQUIRED BY LAW" then you say, "Apple own the iPad 2 and can tell you whatever the heck they want and leave stuff out at will."

Make up your mind.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

It's reality.

In what reality is listing RAM any more bewildering than any of the other specifications listed on that page?

Originally Posted by Eug 

I don't think it's good for consumers, but in this case I don't think it's bad for consumers either.

You edited your post.

I mostly agree but I feel information is neutral – what you do with it is what's good or bad. And with all the proclamations that the average person doesn't check or care, I fail to see how listing it would have a negative effect (Unless you believe that detail alone will suddenly derail the entire conversation about your product in the media).

[Stogieman]

I asked my friend how much RAM he had on is iPad. He said, "32 gigabytes."

[Eug]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

You edited your post.

Yeah. For the other that didn't see it: It was just a comment saying that the fact that it's "only" 512 MB is mitigated by the fact that iOS has superior memory management IMO compared to the competition. Furthermore, the iPad 2 has other benefits in general and actually costs less.

I mostly agree but I feel information is neutral – what you do with it is what's good or bad. And with all the proclamations that the average person doesn't check or care, I fail to see how listing it would have a negative effect (Unless you believe that detail alone will suddenly derail the entire conversation about your product in the media).

It could have a (minor) negative effect for Apple because it becomes another point someone can focus upon which in this case doesn't help the consumer much.

I too would prefer to have all the specs listed, but in this specific case I just don't think it's a big deal. It was a bigger deal with the original iPad though, and they didn't list the RAM amount with that either. If people had argued that point with the original iPad I'd be less inclined to brush it off, because the 256 MB in the original iPad truly was anemic. In fact, it was something I myself brought up as a deficiency of the original iPad.

BTW, I was actually a little shocked the iPad originally came with only 256 MB. I was predicting 512 as the best bang for the buck, and then guessed that maybe that would stay at 512 MB through version 2.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Stogieman 

I asked my friend how much RAM he had on is iPad. He said, "32 gigabytes."

These statements equate to strawmen. Ask your friend how many watts the ac adapter is. Ask him what frequencies the 3G iPad operates on. Ask him what Bluetooth version it is. As him what kind of processor iPad 2 has. Ask him the height and width in mm. Does it have a VGA camera? Ask friend what a VGA camera is. Ask your friend what a three axis gyro is, or what assisted GPS is.

Right.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Eug 

It could have a (minor) negative effect for Apple because it becomes another point someone can focus upon which in this case doesn't help the consumer much.

Yeah, but here's the thing. Once a company starts hiding any spec it doesn't think helps it's case, what's to stop all of them from doing it? That's the point of raw specs, to present the bare facts and let you decide.
(So, is that's what happening? Everybody's doing this?)

Originally Posted by Eug 

It was a bigger deal with the original iPad though, and they didn't list the RAM amount with that either. If people had argued that point with the original iPad I'd be less inclined to brush it off, because the 256 MB in the original iPad truly was anemic. In fact, it was something I myself brought up as a deficiency of the original iPad.

The only thing I can say was the first iPad was such a jaw-dropper that the specs were pretty much an after thought. Now that we're entering the upgrades cycle its those kinds of improvements that start to garner interest (see: the processor).

[ort888]

The stupid thing is that it only matters for a week, because at about 6pm on March 11th we'll all know exactly how much RAM is in there.

[glideslope]

Originally Posted by Stogieman 

I asked my friend how much RAM he had on is iPad. He said, "32 gigabytes."

End of Story. Meet the iPad Target Group.

[Eug]

Other companies do do that with certain specs, esp. with CPUs for example. However, that is besides the point. The point here is that with devices like this, the overall product is much more meaningful. Individual specs do matter, but nowhere near as much IMO as with say true laptops and desktops.

IOW, some people here are blowing it way out of proportion IMO. Would I want to know all the specs? Yes, for us geeks, the more specs the better. But do I think it's a big deal? Not really in this case. I don't actually know the CPU speed of my iPod nano, and I don't care either.

Originally Posted by ort888 

The stupid thing is that it only matters for a week, because at about 6pm on March 11th we'll all know exactly how much RAM is in there.

Tru dat.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Now that we're entering the upgrades cycle its those kinds of improvements that start to garner interest (see: the processor).

They're garnering the interest of the same people who cared the first time around - i.e. nobody relevant (sorry, but you know it's true).

What's actually garnering interest is GarageBand, iMovie, FaceTime, and that nifty magical magnetic cover thing. All at 10 hours realistic battery life.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Other companies do do that with certain specs, esp. with CPUs for example. However, that is besides the point. The point here is that with devices like this, the overall product is much more meaningful. Individual specs do matter, but nowhere near as much IMO as with say true laptops and desktops.

Yeah, it makes me think of the G5 days. At a certain point raw CPU didn't matter and then it became about other things, such as memory (or L2 cache!).

Actually, that's true of my iMac at home and work. I couldn't tell you what processor they're on. But I do know how much RAM they have (I work in Photoshop a lot).

Originally Posted by Eug 

IOW, some people here are blowing it way out of proportion IMO.

I think it's the nature of a discussion that goes on for so long; It feels blown out of proportion. Do I really care that much? No, not really (As Ort notes, as soon as its out someone will do a teardown and we'll know). At this point I'm more incredulous at the explanations put forth than the actual act.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

They're garnering the interest of the same people who cared the first time around - i.e. nobody relevant (sorry, but you know it's true).

Not only do I think that's true, I think I've mentioned it several times. Not something I've been arguing.

But then again:

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Spheric, if Apple thinks tech specs are so irrelevant, why did they make it a point to tell us about the new processor (and it's name!), its dual cores and 9x the graphical power?

[Stogieman]

Originally Posted by freudling 

These statements equate to strawmen. Ask your friend how many watts the ac adapter is. Ask him what frequencies the 3G iPad operates on. Ask him what Bluetooth version it is. As him what kind of processor iPad 2 has. Ask him the height and width in mm. Does it have a VGA camera? Ask friend what a VGA camera is. Ask your friend what a three axis gyro is, or what assisted GPS is.

I did and his response was, "Who cares? Only a Galaxy Tab user suffering from buyer's remorse would ask me those questions."

[freudling]

Apple fails to post RAM specs, but they post most other tech specs of iPad 2. BS marketing. Period. Imagine a world where all manufacturers did not post any tech specs about their products? Right. It's an urban myth that a consumer doesn't check specs. Let's move on.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Apple fails to post RAM specs, but they post most other tech specs of iPad 2. BS marketing. Period. Imagine a world where all manufacturers did not post any tech specs about their products? Right. It's an urban myth that a consumer doesn't check specs. Let's move on.

BS marketing? OMG stop the presses?!?!?

Apple is the king of BS marketing. Tell us something we didn't already know.

The point here though is in this particular case it actually doesn't even matter that much, and few actually care.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by freudling 

First you spout "REQUIRED BY LAW" then you say, "Apple own the iPad 2 and can tell you whatever the heck they want and leave stuff out at will."

Make up your mind.

I was specifically referring to operating temperatures and dimensions, as you should be able to know from what I quoted.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Eug 

BS marketing? OMG stop the presses?!?!?

Apple is the king of BS marketing. Tell us something we didn't already know.

The point here though is in this particular case it actually doesn't even matter that much, and few actually care.

I agree it's not a deal breaker. But it does matter to me. I can't generalize to anyone else, I just suspect that there are many others like 'me' in this world. Gen X and Y. People who grew up with computers. The guy working for the Treasury hanging out on the Internet all day. The guy in the cubicle outside my office looking at this stuff. Your neighbour, etc. If you're generalizing to the US population, that's cool. Just don't project 'stupid consumer' onto the rest of the world.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

And the other point is that if you put a "512" value there that's completely meaningless to customers, and an "800" number somewhere else, then any consumer who's making an "informed" decision will look at those stupid computers-for-beginners rags and see endless tables of meaningless numbers, and come to the conclusion that competitor's product X is a much better deal because it has a "768" and a "900" there for those values, and is only $30 more.

Agreed 100%.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by freudling 

But no RAM! Nice omission. Stop defending Apple already it's embarrassing.

No, what's emberassing is how you're still going on about this when it doesn't matter. It'll either have enough to do what it does or it won't, and since I'm sure Apple has tested them extensively to see how much they need, then what they have should be sufficient. Period.

Now, go out and gnash your teeth and wail over the fact that you don't know how much RAM is in your car's on-board computer.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

No, what's emberassing is how you're still going on about this when it doesn't matter. It'll either have enough to do what it does or it won't, and since I'm sure Apple has tested them extensively to see how much they need, then what they have should be sufficient. Period.

Now, go out and gnash your teeth and wail over the fact that you don't know how much RAM is in your car's on-board computer.

Actually I do. I also know how much is in my laptop.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Actually I do. I also know how much is in my laptop.

You know how much is in your car's ECU? How does that benefit you?

I only know how much is in mine because some geeky guy on a BMW forum, with too much time on his hands, told everyone.

[Phileas]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Now, go out and gnash your teeth and wail over the fact that you don't know how much RAM is in your car's on-board computer.

Exactly.

I have no idea what the max rpm of my washing machine is.
I have no idea what the maximum heat generated by my stove is.
I have no idea what the water pressure is in my house.
I do know that they all work just fine.

People need to stop thinking about the iPad as a computer - it's an appliance. Computers will fade away for most people, just like the command line faded away for the vast majority of users.

[freudling]

I does not equal the whole world. That's great for you, though.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by freudling 

I does not equal the whole world. That's great for you, though.

Apple doesn't need to make boxes for the whole world.

They're doing perfectly well building machines For The Rest Of Us™.

Which, as has been pointed out repeatedly, is merely ALMOST the whole world.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Apple doesn't need to make boxes for the whole world.

They're doing perfectly well building machines For The Rest Of Us™.

Which, as has been pointed out repeatedly, is merely ALMOST the whole world.

Spheric if you keep posting I won't have anymore hair left on my head, because you always make me scratch it.

[glideslope]

Anyone know if the iPad 2 uses Toshiba or Samsung Flash for Storage?

[Cold Warrior]

Deciding on a tablet by comparing specs? You've missed the point

Seems relevant. Specs add to the experience, but they don't make it. The sum is greater than the parts for iPad and iPhone.

[Phileas]

Originally Posted by Cold Warrior 

Deciding on a tablet by comparing specs? You've missed the point

Seems relevant. Specs add to the experience, but they don't make it. The sum is greater than the parts for iPad and iPhone.

That's what Apple's competition isn't getting. Nobody, at the end of the day, cares about the, for example, number of megapixels a camera has. What people care about is the quality of the picture.

For example, when Facebook implemented photo uploads, they were, once again, crunched for server capacity. As a result, they started compressing uploaded images, which caused great glee in Geekistan, with all the predictable comments. A toy, not fit for proper photography, where is my high res, flickr is better, etc, etc.

All of this got negated by an idea that cost Facebook nothing to implement, but changed the user experience to such a degree that the quality of the images paled into insignificance - the ability to tag your friends.

The great insight here was that most people don't care about the picture - they care about who's in the picture. They don't care about the megapixels, they care about their friends. Apple gets that. Most people care about the user experience, not how that experience is achieved.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by freudling 

I does not equal the whole world. That's great for you, though.

But you keep saying that a whole generation of people care.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

But you keep saying that a whole generation of people care.

Don't you get it?!? He is a whole generation of people all by himself, no one else will claim him.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

But you keep saying that a whole generation of people care.

I said I can't generalize, but I suspect. Why the hell do we argue about this idiotic stuff? We don't have any research to back up what we claim. Anybody saying with certainty that consumers are stupid and don't look at specs is bullshxting. And anybody saying the opposite with certainty is bullshxting too. We need the data.

HOWEVER, I suspect our younger generation is much more knowledgeable about computers than the older generation. Therefore, I think specs are important. I could be wrong.

Imagine a world without any tech specs. Just imagine it. Right. That doesn't seem right either. That's my point. Moving on...

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Imagine a world without any tech specs. Just imagine it. Right. That doesn't seem right either. That's my point. Moving on...

Wait what? A world without tech specs sure seems right to me! I'd love to live in a world where every device had plentiful power to do whatever you can throw at it. I'd love to not care about how fast my MBP's hard drive is and for it to never enter into my mind. I'd love to be able to buy any new computer and have it just work with the applications I use without upgrades. And that's what the tablet market represents. Even for brands that show spec like RAM, it doesn't really matter does it? You're not able to replace it, and it runs smoothly, so who cares?

[Big Mac]

That's not what freudling meant. He meant "imagine a world where no company posted the tech specs of its products," not "Imagine a world where tech specs don't matter because every piece of technology is super high end and capable of everything."

Also, freudling, regarding your assumption that the younger generations are somehow more tech savvy than older generations, that's true up to a point. In general younger generations are more comfortable with consumer electronics as end users. That doesn't mean, however, that most of them are tech geeks. Just go on a site like Yahoo Answers and you'll see how clueless and stupid many kids are when it comes to the fine points of technology. Kids may grow up a world today that is full of sophisticated consumer tech, but that doesn't make them all tech geniuses.

[SSharon]

Originally Posted by freudling 

HOWEVER, I suspect our younger generation is much more knowledgeable about computers than the older generation.

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

In general younger generations are more comfortable with consumer electronics as end users. That doesn't mean, however, that most of them are tech geeks.

I think it would be fair to say that the younger generation is more comfortable with the operation of technology, but I wouldn't say they are more knowledgeable about the technology itself. Kids today can take a picture with a cell phone and upload it to facebook or email it, but that doesn't mean they know anything about tech specs.

I would venture a guess that more people in the previous generation knew how a record worked than people in the current generation know how a CD works.

[Spheric Harlot]

I'm saying - as Phileas is - that who's looking at the specs to determine the value and quality of these things is asking the wrong questions.

It doesn't make photos of family events any more valuable to know that they're being processed in more "RAM", whatever that is.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by SSharon 

I think it would be fair to say that the younger generation is more comfortable with the operation of technology, but I wouldn't say they are more knowledgeable about the technology itself. Kids today can take a picture with a cell phone and upload it to facebook or email it, but that doesn't mean they know anything about tech specs.

Exactly. That's what I was trying to explain.

[Spheric Harlot]

Very true.

Kids have grown up around digital tech and expect it to just work. They've never needed to think about the technical background, just like we never thought about the technical background of tv or radio - inconceivable to those few in our parents' generation who grew up adjusting crystals.

[freudling]

What are you people basing your information on? You make young people out to be stupid. Like they don't go to school like you and I did. Like they don't learn about computers, or society, or math... Every generation does this. They get 'worried' about the upcoming generation. They somehow think that because the new generation is 'different' that they're inferior and are going to mess it all up.

It's bullshxt. What happens is they are different, and then when they reach a certain age of taking on responsibility, they assume their rightful roles in society.

Young people are not stupid. They're not ignorant. They go to school. They've been brought up with computers, like I have. RAM was and still is one of the most used terms in computer language in high school and college because it actually does matter. "You're using Photoshop, how much RAM you have?" "My computer's slow, do I need more RAM?" The concept of RAM has been pounded into us since day 1.

All this crap on here is just speculation that belittles entire generations of people because some of you see posts online and on Answers.com and you generalize the world from it. And then all the other speculation.

Sorry, I'm just tired of people doing this. And I'm tired of people assuming that consumers are dumb and don't care about much at all. I'm betting that they do care. They make their tech purchasing decisions in calculated ways. They research these products online before they buy (eCommerce study from Chicago as a reference). They read consumer forums for feedback like Amazon; they price compare. They compare product specs. They have emotional connections to companies. On and on. I've got some studies I've read from clients that show all this. General consumers. I'm still not generalizing but I don't assume that consumers are just stupid. We all have the Internet now, it's easy to look this stuff up.

I also don't assume because a person knows about RAM that makes them a "tech geek". That's not accurate at all. Most people, I will bet, have an idea of what a processor is, a hard drive, and RAM. And I don't think I'm special or better or different than other people because I'm interested in tech. I think most people are these days. I think the parity between consumers is a lot closer than it was before the Internet hit critical mass. I think I'm just marginally more knowledgable than the average consumer. But I could be wrong... the little bit of data I have read could be wrong. But hey, keep going...

[Spheric Harlot]

I've been dealing with Apple customers of all ages on a daily basis - both in sales and in tech support.

So has AKCrab.

I'd imagine that we have a fairly good picture of who's buying Apple products, why, and how.

[freudling]

Study:

Yes, yes... go ahead and rip it apart. Skew it. Interpret it for your own position. It is what it is. Consumers, based on this study, don't ignore specs.

Consumers choose products with more technical specs

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Young people are not stupid. They're not ignorant. They go to school. They've been brought up with computers, like I have. RAM was and still is one of the most used terms in computer language in high school and college because it actually does matter. "You're using Photoshop, how much RAM you have?" "My computer's slow, do I need more RAM?" The concept of RAM has been pounded into us since day 1.

You really have no clue what people are actually DOING with their machines, do you?

"You're using facebook; how much RAM do you have?"
"You're writing e-mails; how much RAM do you have?"

People aren't ignorant or stupid for having no clue or interest in things that are irrelevant to their daily use.

Nobody actually deals with RAM unless (until) it becomes a problem.

All this crap on here is just speculation that belittles entire generations of people because some of you see posts online and on Answers.com and you generalize the world from it. And then all the other speculation.

No.

See above.

People care about the things they need to. That they are unwilling to waste their time on stuff that is of no relevance to their lives is not "ignorance" or "stupidity".

People don't adjust the timing of their sparkplugs either. They want to take their family swimming, or get groceries from the supermarket.

I also don't assume because a person knows about RAM that makes them a "tech geek". That's not accurate at all. Most people, I will bet, have an idea of what a processor is, a hard drive, and RAM.

You're completely, totally wrong, and getting wronger by the day.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Study:

Yes, yes... go ahead and rip it apart. Skew it. Interpret it for your own position. It is what it is. Consumers, based on this study, don't ignore specs.

Consumers choose products with more technical specs

Well, Apple is doomed.

Somebody ought to tell them.

[freudling]

No, Apple is not doomed, because they post detailed tech specs. They sometimes like to leave out RAM though... you know, when the competition has twice as much.

[Spheric Harlot]

Yes, and since most people concerned with RAM *are* in fact completely ignorant about what it means, they think it makes those "competitors" better products.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by osiris 

My mother asked me how much RAM the new iPad had once.

Once.

Classic.

YouTube - It shoots through schools

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

What's actually garnering interest is GarageBand, iMovie, FaceTime, and that nifty magical magnetic cover thing. All at 10 hours realistic battery life.

It should be put on as a disclaimer of every single Spheric Harlot post, that he pushes Apple products for a living, and does so apparently in his free time on internet forums as well.

One thing is being a product enthusiast, but take everything with a grain of salt from people who actually make their living off pushing that product.

It's like discussing the George W administration with Ari Fleischer in 2002.

Disclaimer: I have no material interest in any products and am a Mac enthusiast.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

It should be put on as a disclaimer of every single Spheric Harlot post, that he pushes Apple products for a living, and does so apparently in his free time on internet forums as well.

Except for he's correct. That is what people will actually see and be enamored of, not necessarily the faster processors, etc.

Edit: For those who think the iPad 2 is too expensive: http://www.engadget.com/2011/03/04/s...e-compared-to/

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

It should be put on as a disclaimer of every single Spheric Harlot post, that he pushes Apple products for a living, and does so apparently in his free time on internet forums as well.

One thing is being a product enthusiast, but take everything with a grain of salt from people who actually make their living off pushing that product.

It's like discussing the George W administration with Ari Fleischer in 2002.

Disclaimer: I have no material interest in any products and am a Mac enthusiast.

Oh hell, not everyone is blessed with the same level of objectivity as you are

-t

[ort888]

Gack. I feel like this whole stupid RAM thing is my fault.

Lack of RAM is the only reason I didn't buy a 1st gen iPad. My boss owns one, and I took it with me for a week, tried to set it all up with my bookmarks and surf the net with it in a similar fashion to what I would do on a laptop and it was impossible. Once you had 5 or 6 "tabs" open it would refresh the page every time you went back to a tab. It made tab browsing completely pointless. It really was a dealbreaker and pretty much the only thing keeping me from buying one.

Most people don't browse multiple sites at once, so this isn't a big deal for them, but for power surfers or whatever, it's a giant deal.

I don't care how much RAM is in there, but I do care if tabbed browsing works.

[turtle777]

You are right, "tabbed" browing refresh is quite annoying. It's not as bad on Atomic Browser though, so it can't just be the iPad 1 specs.

-t