[lpkmckenna]

My faith in Canada has been renewed: Creationism in science class would disqualify schools for funding: Conservatives.

Frankly, I'm against public funding for private schools. The real solution for Ontario is to merge the Catholic and public systems together. But the fact that the Tories are standing up for science is outstanding.

[besson3c]

Yes, it is nice to see that some governments understand that religion and politics do not and should not mix.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Yes, it is nice to see that some governments understand that religion and politics do not and should not mix.

And yet nobody "Hates us for our freedom"

[Eug]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Yes, it is nice to see that some governments understand that religion and politics do not and should not mix.

The sad part is they don't understand this. At least in Ontario, Catholic schools are publicly funded. Hence, the Jewish leaders are pissed off because the Jewish schools don't get any public funding.

The Jewish community (as well as the Muslim community) say that it's quite unfair... and I agree. However, instead of giving public money to Jewish schools as the Jewish communities have asked, like lpkmckenna I think the government should stop funding Catholic schools.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Eug 

The sad part is they don't understand this. At least in Ontario, Catholic schools are publicly funded. Hence, the Jewish leaders are pissed off because the Jewish schools don't get any public funding.

The Jewish community (as well as the Muslim community) say that it's quite unfair... and I agree. However, instead of giving public money to Jewish schools as the Jewish communities have asked, like lpkmckenna I think the government should stop funding Catholic schools.

Well, I'm disconnected from Canadian politics right now, so without knowing too much about both sides of this issue, I agree completely with what you have said here, assuming you are characterizing it fairly

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Eug 

However, instead of giving public money to Jewish schools as the Jewish communities have asked, like lpkmckenna I think the government should stop funding Catholic schools.

I agree with you.

[peeb]

why?

[Yose]

Originally Posted by Eug 

The sad part is they don't understand this. At least in Ontario, Catholic schools are publicly funded. Hence, the Jewish leaders are pissed off because the Jewish schools don't get any public funding.

The Jewish community (as well as the Muslim community) say that it's quite unfair... and I agree. However, instead of giving public money to Jewish schools as the Jewish communities have asked, like lpkmckenna I think the government should stop funding Catholic schools.

I don't support Tory in the least bit, but I have to thank him for taking his position on this issue, If only because I see it becoming a long overdue catalyst to changing the consititution and taking the catholic school system out.

[BadKosh]

How much Canadian money ends up being used to settle Lawsuits from molested kids?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

How much Canadian money ends up being used to settle Lawsuits from molested kids?

Another post of yours that seems filled with subtext... Maybe you ought to disclose where you are coming from so that your questions don't seem so leading?

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by Eug 

The sad part is they don't understand this. At least in Ontario, Catholic schools are publicly funded. Hence, the Jewish leaders are pissed off because the Jewish schools don't get any public funding.

I think it is you who doesn't understand this. Creationism tought as science is laughable and no school teaching it as such should receive public funding.

Perhaps Jewish and Muslim schools don't fulfill the mandatory curriculum of the state. You are simplifying things.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Eug 

However, instead of giving public money to Jewish schools as the Jewish communities have asked, like lpkmckenna I think the government should stop funding Catholic schools.

I wholeheartedly agree. I do think that parents should have the right to send their kids to religious schools, but I don't think these schools should be funded with taxpayer's money.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani 

I think it is you who doesn't understand this. Creationism tought as science is laughable and no school teaching it as such should receive public funding.

Perhaps Jewish and Muslim schools don't fulfill the mandatory curriculum of the state. You are simplifying things.

How did Creationism teach us that science is laughable?

Can't wait to hear this...

[BadKosh]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Another post of yours that seems filled with subtext... Maybe you ought to disclose where you are coming from so that your questions don't seem so leading?

Connect the dots!

The Catholic church gets money from canada.
The catholic church pays out large settlements for it's pedophile priests mistakes.
have they created a special 'slush fund' for this or do the payments come from a general fund?
Wouldn't the canadian payments end up in the hands of the molested?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Yes, it is nice to see that some governments understand that religion and politics do not and should not mix.

The Gov shouldn't have anything to do with religion as far as controlling it. I agree there.

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

And yet nobody "Hates us for our freedom"

Well why do they target Canada too then SWG? What is Canada doing that has made it target for attacks too? Maybe it is your freedom. They dislike countries that support gay rights. "Allah" tells them to blow you up.

Yet, we are the bad guys.

FOXNews.com - Iran Does Far Worse Than Ignore Gays, Critics Say - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News

Your blind hatred of the US has made you totally blind to what you should really be concerned about.

But then again, thats waaay over in Ira. So it doesn't directly effect you, and therefore irrelevant to your world it seems. (Not that anything done in the US directly effects you either..)

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

How did Creationism teach us that science is laughable?

Can't wait to hear this...

Err maybe it's time you stepped away from the computer and did something constructive until your reading abilities return.

Then you can come back and edit your post.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

How did Creationism teach us that science is laughable?

Can't wait to hear this...

Um, I don't think he said what you think he did. Go back and re-read.



Here I will bold it

Creationism tought as science is laughable

And I don't think Creationism taught as Science is valuable either. As in order to TEACH something, we first have to understand how it works. Since we don't....

Though It should be brought up as an ideal, a belief. Ones even non-religious people share.

[Uncle Skeleton]

That's a new one. Non-religious people believe in Creationism with a capital C? Who?

[amazing]

There's something really scary about the details of creationism. The $27 million Creation Museum opened "debt free", what's that say about us? You can dioramas of Adam and Eve with the dinosaurs, so I guess "somebody divine" was confused about things when they "created" carbon dating and astronomy and geology and stuff like that?

Here's Salon's take on it, and also about how the Grand Canyon was created:

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/20...eation_museum/

"Later Ham tells me that his skeptics, who cling to the "millions of years" theory, are wrong about when dinosaurs stalked the Earth. He cites a recent discovery of intact blood vessels in some T. rex tissue, suggesting that the finds are only thousands of years old, not 65 million, as paleontologists say. "They will try to come up with an explanation to keep the fossils old," says Ham, "but we don't need to. The explanation of their age is already right there in the Bible."

"For generations, paleontologists have shown that dinosaurs and humans never trod the Earth at the same time, that in fact with the exception of birds (modern-day dinosaurs), they never got within 60 million years of each other on the timeline of natural history. Not so, says Looy. "They all had to exist at the same time because they were all made on the same day. There may not be any fossil evidence showing dinosaurs and people in the same place at the same time. But it is clearly written that they were alive at the same time."

From another article about the Creation Museum, with a delicious quote about Darwinists being gullible:

"John Morris, president of the Institute for Creation Research in San Diego, an organization that promotes creationism, said the museum will affirm the doubts many people have about science, namely the notion that man evolved from lower forms of life.

“Americans just aren’t gullible enough to believe that they came from a fish,” he said."

Museum brings creationism to life - Science - MSNBC.com

Well, hooray for Canada if they can stay out this insanity.

[Kevin]

I guess there is "Creationism" and there is "creationism" now.

Cause under some of your guys definitions, I surely am not a "Creationist"

[BadKosh]

Some people will believe anything.

[Uncle Skeleton]

I usually let the person talking decide what they're talking about. Usually if someone goes to the trouble to capitalize (any word), they mean something specific. So who were you talking about, Kevin, and what were you intending "Creationism" to be?

[Kevin]

To me and everyone I know that believe in creationism, we simply believe that we came from a higher power.

Heck, I am going to ditch the creationist word all together.

I am a big fan of biogenesis. I am a Biogenesiser.

[Uncle Skeleton]

So what non-religious people were you talking about, and what do they believe? Aliens created us?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

So what non-religious people were you talking about, and what do they believe? Aliens created us?

You can be non-religious and believe in higher powers. It doesn't even have to be a God.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Ok, but what is it if it's not a God? I'm just having a hard time imagining what higher powers there are (in people's true core beliefs) that aren't covered by Gods and aliens. Can you enlighten me?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Ok, but what is it if it's not a God? I'm just having a hard time imagining what higher powers there are (in people's true core beliefs) that aren't covered by Gods and aliens. Can you enlighten me?

Nope, as I don't hold any such "other" beliefs.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Ok, but what is it if it's not a God? I'm just having a hard time imagining what higher powers there are (in people's true core beliefs) that aren't covered by Gods and aliens. Can you enlighten me?

The Force.

[Uncle Skeleton]

I don't know... that has a lot of overlap with aliens...

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

I don't know... that has a lot of overlap with aliens...

The really smart and powerful ones are always aliens.

Greetings earthlings.

[subego]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

The really smart and powerful ones are always aliens.

Greetings earthlings.

Welcome.

Immigration would like to speak with you.

What's in the duffle bag?

[TETENAL]

Religion should be thought in schools. To religious and atheist children. Since it is an important part of the human society. But religion should be thought in a religion or ethics class. Teaching religion in a science class is ludicrous.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by subego 

Welcome.

Immigration would like to speak with you.

What's in the duffle bag?

Uranium PU-36 Explosive Space Modulator

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

Religion should be thought in schools.

I don't have any problem with religious thoughts at school.

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

To religious and atheist children. Since it is an important part of the human society.

It's becoming less important over time. Regardless, why can't children learn about religion at church? Why waste my kids' time?

[subego]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

Uranium PU-36 Explosive Space Modulator

Just as long as it isn't American currency.

Carry on.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

You can be non-religious and believe in a higher powers. It doesn't even have to be a God.

Very true. I am non-religious, and yet I believe there is more to life, the universe and everything than mere happenstance. I don't believe there is enough information available to understand, but suspect that a collective understanding of all the world's religions might help.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Ok, but what is it if it's not a God? I'm just having a hard time imagining what higher powers there are (in people's true core beliefs) that aren't covered by Gods and aliens. Can you enlighten me?

Espers, fairies, "fate," "nature."

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Very true. I am non-religious, and yet I believe there is more to life, the universe and everything than mere happenstance. I don't believe there is enough information available to understand, but suspect that a collective understanding of all the world's religions might help.

Would you say you believe in "creationism?"

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

It's becoming less important over time.

Globally I don't see this trend.

Regardless, why can't children learn about religion at church? Why waste my kids' time?

Schools teach a broad variety of general knowledge. Math, history, literature, a foreign language... Each of those might seem like a waste of time depending on what you do for a living later in your life. But a democratic society where everybody is supposed to decide over complex matters requires that everybody understands at least the basics about every important matter. Otherwise we would have experts in their domain but helpless outside of it, manipulatable nerds.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

Globally I don't see this trend.

Schools teach a broad variety of general knowledge. Math, history, literature, a foreign language... Each of those might seem like a waste of time depending on what you do for a living later in your life. But a democratic society where everybody is supposed to decide over complex matters requires that everybody understands at least the basics about every important matter. Otherwise we would have experts in their domain but helpless outside of it, manipulatable nerds.

We get the whole basic shtick of "Jesus died for our sins and was nailed to a cross" via osmosis just by living and socializing in this society. Whether one wants to explore all of this from a spiritual way should be up to them, unless you think that schools should be taking an academic and non-dogmatic approach when it comes to teaching religion (which is complicated enough to leave for upper level high school/college students).

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

Schools teach a broad variety of general knowledge. Math, history, literature, a foreign language... Each of those might seem like a waste of time depending on what you do for a living later in your life. But a democratic society where everybody is supposed to decide over complex matters requires that everybody understands at least the basics about every important matter. Otherwise we would have experts in their domain but helpless outside of it, manipulatable nerds.

The basics of any religion are easily covered when relevant during a real subject, like history or geography. Religion courses are a waste of time.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

The basics of any religion are easily covered when relevant during a real subject, like history or geography.

Knowledge about religion is necessary to understand history, so that's just one reason to teach about it, but I completely fail to see what religion has to do with geography. I don't think it should be stuffed in there.

Religion courses are a waste of time.

I didn't say "religion courses". I said religion or ethics classes. Or maybe in a philosophy class if you have that instead. Those are not a waste of time. Now I didn't say there should be religion classes 4 hours a week for 10 years, did I?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Would you say you believe in "creationism?"

I don't know what "creationism" is. Or, more to the point, I don't know how you define it. I would say I don't have enough information available to state a belief on how life came to be, but that the perfection of it's processes, including evolution, leads me to suspect there was something guiding the process. Whether that something snapped everything into existence or guided an already emerging natural process, I do not know.

[Uncle Skeleton]

It sounds like you believe that something supernatural exists, and guides us, but you come short of believing that thing actually created us and our world. I don't think an "I don't know" philosophy qualifies as a "belief," (more of the opposite of a belief) which is what I'm wondering about: I'm surprised to see anyone claim that non-religious people believe in creationism. I'm glad you stepped forward to declare yourself one, but only in as much as you can explain how those two traits aren't contradictory: being non-religious and believing in creationism. I guess what I'm asking for is a definition of creationism that is non-religious, and that you believe. Sorry to answer your request for a definition of creationism with a reciprocal request.

[angaq0k]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

To me and everyone I know that believe in creationism, we simply believe that we came from a higher power.

Like, (MomofKevin)square + (DadofKevin)square = Kevin?

[angaq0k]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

The basics of any religion are easily covered when relevant during a real subject, like history or geography. Religion courses are a waste of time.

I disagree. Even the most radical atheist has to admit the power religion has on human minds and how it created and modified cultures, politics, economics.

Religions have to be taught for what they represent and what they are.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

It sounds like you believe that something supernatural exists, and guides us, but you come short of believing that thing actually created us and our world.

I wouldn't even go so far as to say I believe there is something that guides us. I'm open to the idea that we were created but I don't believe we were created in 7 days any more than I believe our world came into existence on the back of a turtle.

The bare minimum I believe is that something guided the processes that allowed us to come into existence, and that only because the evidence available (life) leads me to believe that our existence is simply to complex to have emerged out of luck.

Perhaps whatever it was intervened only long enough to set in motion a course of events that led to our eventual existence. Butterfly-in-a-rain-forest kinda thing.

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

I don't think an "I don't know" philosophy qualifies as a "belief," (more of the opposite of a belief)

I think this is where you get confused. You seem to be automatically associating "belief" with religion. I suspect there are many things in your "belief" that you "don't know". Of course, your "belief" does an excellent job of filling in alot of the details, but alot of the questions concerning the motivations of the god you believe in end up being answered with "I don't know". My "belief" simply has less details.

Rather than say "I don't believe we were created the way the Christian religion says we were", I would say "I believe we came into existence in a way other than that outlined by any of the world's religions ... but I don't have enough evidence to know what that way was" (this might be the non-religious definition of creationism that you're looking for)

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

I'm surprised to see anyone claim that non-religious people believe in creationism.

I believe you will begin to see a slow increase in the number of non-religious people who "believe" in some form of creationism. I think those of us who were raised in a religion but became disappointed with the religious institutions of the world will still retain some "beliefs".

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

I think this is where you get confused. You seem to be automatically associating "belief" with religion.

No, I'm not. I'm associating it exactly as you used it later:

"I believe you will begin to see a slow increase in the number of non-religious people..."

As in, something you think is really true. If you had said "I don't know if you will begin to see..." it would have a completely different meaning, and if another person had then come in to say that what you really said is the same as what I just changed it to, I don't know how I'd be able to believe them ( <-- perfect example of how those phrases are usually opposites, not synonyms).

"I believe we came into existence in a way other than that outlined by any of the world's religions ... but I don't have enough evidence to know what that way was" (this might be the non-religious definition of creationism that you're looking for)

So you believe we were created, but you don't know or care by what, and you don't believe so strongly enough to actually say "I believe we were created by something?" I suppose that answers my question. Thanks.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Would you say you believe in "creationism?"

Many people, including myself, believe that a "higher power" provided the spark for the big bang. Does that count?

[Uncle Skeleton]

no, I'd say not. The more interesting question is, do you say it counts? Do you call that "creationism?"