[Beewee]

Warning: This thread contains extremely combustable religious material. If you must enter you do so at your own risk.

This is just something I thought while I was bored at work...

I have heard the term "slippery slope" time and time again when it comes to questioning religion. And have heard arguments that "You have a choice" if you want to believe in God and Jesus. But if you choose "no", you're sent to hell. I believe in God and I believe in Jesus, however I am starting to question whether people who don't believe are actually sent to hell.

If hell is a place of suffering and torment where the damned souls reside to burn forever and ever and we assume God is 100% benevolent, how can he/she/it send you to hell for not believing in Jesus?
Isn't it possible that regardless of your beliefs we all go to Heaven or some form of an afterlife?

Pretty simple question, I'm sure it has been discussed before...this should be interesting.

[Immortal K-Mart Employee]

Originally posted by Beewee:
[B]If hell is a place of suffering and torment where the damned souls reside to burn forever and ever and we assume God is 100% benevolent, how can he/she/it send you to hell for not believing in Jesus?

The same way God makes you "gay" then hates that sin and wants you to change for "LOVING" someone the same sex as you.

So logical and tolerant isn't it.

[Logic]

And they say: "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."
Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to God and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Surah 2 Verses 111 - 112

[gorickey]

Religion?

Hmm, sounds famalier I suppose...

[Developer]

I think this was introduced as a motivation to join the church a pay the tithe.

[Immortal K-Mart Employee]

Originally posted by Logic:
And they say: "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."
Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to God and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Surah 2 Verses 111 - 112

Screw that, I don't want into that snooty place then. Hell sounds like where all the interesting people are.

[OH-N'omac]

Well, since the church seems to change the rules mid-game about who is where and why, anything seems possible at all. Ask a catholic about the history of limbo to see what I mean.

I used to think that you went wherever you believed you were going to go...heaven, someplace filled with virgins, valhalla, wherever. Now I think that no one goes anywhere at all and all these stories are there to give people hope that there might be something better waiting for them on the other side....this life may suck, but if I pray hard and don't complain then things are going to *awesome* later. If you're not a sucker for hope, then maybe the fear of eternal damnation will get you to start kicking your tithe to the church.

You won't know for sure until you're dead anyway. Pick something that makes sense to you and run with it. Nothing in this thread will shed any light on it...you've asked one of those questions that can only be answered with circular logic and the assumption that a stack of old fairy tales rewritten a hundered times over should be taken as fact. The rules are "right" because the people who wrote them say they are...some others will throw a couple of Thou and Shalts in the mix, but that won't change the "We're right because we say we are" mentality that you're going to hear from everyone who tries to say with certainty what comes next.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Immortal K-Mart Employee:
The same way God makes you "gay" then hates that sin and wants you to change for "LOVING" someone the same sex as you.

That has been explained to you time and time again. You just keep repeating the same nonsense as if you have never heard any different.

Why is that?

Again. God didn't create homosexuals.

After the fall of Adam, man fell into sin.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Beewee:
Warning: This thread contains extremely combustable religious material. If you must enter you do so at your own risk.

This is just something I thought while I was bored at work...

I have heard the term "slippery slope" time and time again when it comes to questioning religion. And have heard arguments that "You have a choice" if you want to believe in God and Jesus. But if you choose "no", you're sent to hell. I believe in God and I believe in Jesus, however I am starting to question whether people who don't believe are actually sent to hell.

If hell is a place of suffering and torment where the damned souls reside to burn forever and ever and we assume God is 100% benevolent, how can he/she/it send you to hell for not believing in Jesus?
Isn't it possible that regardless of your beliefs we all go to Heaven or some form of an afterlife?

Pretty simple question, I'm sure it has been discussed before...this should be interesting.

Beewee if your concerns are valid. I assure you this isn't the place to be asking the question.

This is a serious matter, and 90% of the people in here are just going to make asinine sarcastic comments about things they don't and wont understand.

[kmkkid]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
That has been explained to you time and time again. You just keep repeating the same nonsense as if you have never heard any different.

Why is that?

Again. God didn't create homosexuals.

After the fall of Adam, man fell into sin.

So it's a sin to be born into something you have no choice over?


Riiiiiiiight.


And dont give me that "you have a choice" crap, how bout you force yourself (being a straight man I assume) to love a man, then you'll see how we see it. You cant force sexual attraction, it's a chemical thing.

I'm sorry but if living a happy present life will land me in hell, over a hell on earth for heaven, I'll take the happy present life thanks. Cause who even knows if there really is anything after death anyways. (Don't say you do, cause you dont.)


Chris

[Sealobo]

Some random kid born in central africa who has no food or clean water then died a short life, got no chance to "learn" about god, jesus or whatever religion; would go straight to hell? Come on... there got to be exemption.

So if you chose not to believe, then you're a moron. but if you didn't even have a chance to make a choice, then...?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by kmkkid:
So it's a sin to be born into something you have no choice over?

Riiiiiiiight.

And dont give me that "you have a choice" crap, how bout you force yourself (being a straight man I assume) to love a man, then you'll see how we see it. You cant force sexual attraction, it's a chemical thing.

I'm sorry but if living a happy present life will land me in hell, over a hell on earth for heaven, I'll take the happy present life thanks. Cause who even knows if there really is anything after death anyways. (Don't say you do, cause you dont.)

Chris

Some people claim they are born murderers. If they kill no one. No sin is committed.

[Logic]

Originally posted by Sealobo:
Some random kid born in central africa who has no food or clean water then died a short life, got no chance to "learn" about god, jesus or whatever religion; would go straight to hell? Come on... there got to be exemption.

So if you chose not to believe, then you're a moron. but if you didn't even have a chance to make a choice, then...?

Allah makes the judgement and not we humans. Easy as that. Live a good life and do good things for your fellow human beings and I suspect you'll enter heaven.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Sealobo:
Some random kid born in central africa who has no food or clean water then died a short life, got no chance to "learn" about god, jesus or whatever religion; would go straight to hell? Come on... there got to be exemption.

So if you chose not to believe, then you're a moron. but if you didn't even have a chance to make a choice, then...?

There is exceptions. If they don't know, there is no free will to chose.

[AKcrab]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
There is exceptions. If they don't know, there is no free will to chose.

Umm.. But none of us "know".

[benign]

Originally posted by Beewee:

If hell is a place of suffering and torment where the damned souls reside to burn forever and ever and we assume God is 100% benevolent, how can he/she/it send you to hell for not believing in Jesus?
Isn't it possible that regardless of your beliefs we all go to Heaven or some form of an afterlife?

You are either with me or against me.

What you should be asking yourself is what exactly will heaven be like.
No desires, no hunger, no secretions of any kind, no earthly style body,
no wants at all, nothing except 24/7 worth of praising god - for eternity.

[olePigeon]

Sucks for Buddah, Dalai Lama, and Gandhi. They stopped wars, spread peace, and litterally saved the lives of millions of people. Now they go to hell for it. Sounds pretty crappy to me.

[Zimphire]

"Know ye not that hell was not created for man? Hell was created for the devil and his angels"

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS. (Matthew 25:41)

God is holy and will not allow any sin in His kingdom. Sin and evil is destroyed in his presence

The Lord is...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (II Peter 3:9)

Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking to people at final judgment), ...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 10:28, And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 12:5, But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which AFTER he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Matthew 18:8, 9 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Mark 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Revelation 20:12, 15, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

[Zimphire]

19. There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21. And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28. For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[OH-N'omac]

Well, now we are getting somewhere, avoiding the circular logic completely and getting right down to the Thous and Shalts.

Hope that answers your question, BeeWee.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

Again. God didn't create homosexuals.

You're right, my Mom and Dad did and they have never met this Adam that is to blame for everything.

Utter nonsense.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:
You're right, my Mom and Dad did and they have never met this Adam that is to blame for everything.

Utter nonsense.

You don't make a good case for proving it's utter nonsense.

I guess we will find out when we die.

If I am wrong, oh well. I lived a good life.

If you are wrong however.. the consequences are a bit higher.

I myself? I was born a Christian. I can't help it.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

If I am wrong, oh well. I lived a good life.

If you are wrong however.. the consequences are a bit higher.

I myself? I was born a Christian. I can't help it.

That is typical horrible and Superiority complex for you to say. Doesn't matter what you were born as if you are a bad person. I am willing to bet I do better things in life then you do and I am not allowed in because I am gay?

If I die and I am not allowed into your heaven because I am gay... well guess what. I don't want in.

Club for Jerks apparently.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:
That is typical horrible and Superiority complex for you to say.

Superiority? No. I am not better than you. How many times do I have to say that to you?

Doesn't matter what you were born as if you are a bad person. I am willing to bet I do better things in life then you do and I am not allowed in because I am gay?

You don't know what I do. Now who has the Superiority complex?

If I die and I am not allowed into your heaven because I am gay... well guess what. I don't want in.

Club for Jerks apparently.

No, not because you are gay. But because you sin (everyone does) and you justify that sin as being ok.

You aren't singled out for being a homosexual.

[Oneota]

Originally posted by benign:
What you should be asking yourself is what exactly will heaven be like.
No desires, no hunger, no secretions of any kind, no earthly style body,
no wants at all, nothing except 24/7 worth of praising god - for eternity.

Sounds like hell to me.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

Superiority? No. I am not better than you. How many times do I have to say that to you?
[/B]

"If I am wrong, oh well. I lived a good life.

If you are wrong however.. the consequences are a bit higher."

BTW you are turning into a parody.

Go outside and play or something. Whatever you did during your ban. Must be more exciting then 40 posts a day on religion on a computer forum

[Zimphire]

Ah, so no content. Just more character assassinations.

Don't you tire of derailing threads with personal attacks against me?

[Ozmodiar]

Augustine believed that God chose who was good enough to enter Heaven. The consequence was he also chose who wasn't good enough. He called it Election, and it was a controversy that lasted from the end of the Patristic period all the way through Medieval times.

In any event, I think we're all going to be very surprised at what happens when we die.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by benign:
You are either with me or against me.

What you should be asking yourself is what exactly will heaven be like.
No desires, no hunger, no secretions of any kind, no earthly style body,
no wants at all, nothing except 24/7 worth of praising god - for eternity.

We will indeed have new bodies. You are showing you don't know too much about the scriptures again.

[Ozmodiar]

Zim, how do you know (without citing the Bible) that Christianity is the one true religion? Is it a gut feeling you have? If you say faith, that's kind of vague. What feeling do you have that tells you your faith is justified and accurate?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Ozmodiar:
Zim, how do you know (without citing the Bible) that Christianity is the one true religion?

Knowledge is one of the fruits of the spirit.

And I have also seen great things happen in the name of Jesus.

I believe they are called "miracles" Yes folks, they still happen in this day and age.

[waxcrash]

Where did Cain get his wife?

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Ah, so no content. Just more character assassinations.

Don't you tire of derailing threads with personal attacks against me?

Neither is happening here. You just think I am against you. My opinion on religion is not a thing towards you. You're not that important.

Go cry to the mods over it but if you read this topic you can see you are the one doing what you are claiming.

Bye bye!

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:
Neither is happening here. You just think I am against you.
You weren't knocking on my religion. My opinion on religion is not a thing towards you. You're not that important. Go cry to the mods over it but if you read this topic you can see you are the one doing what you are claiming.

Bye bye!

So this was attacking my religion?

Originally posted by Socially Awkward Solo:
"BTW you are turning into a parody.

Go outside and play or something. Whatever you did during your ban. Must be more exciting then 40 posts a day on religion on a computer forum

No. Stop being dishonest.

You have again derailed a thread whining about how you dislike me. This poster had a legitimate question. You just wanted to fill the thread with smart aleck comments and hatefulness.

It's not like you haven't been warned MANY times about this.

[hyteckit]

Hmm... what happens when a man is born with a vagina?

What happens when a woman is born with a penis?

What happens when a man is born with both a penis and vagina?

Wow, what would God do?

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by waxcrash:
Where did Cain get his wife?

Nod, which was founded by the descendants of Adam by his first wife Lilith (as per the book of Second Enoch).

but what's more important is... this is all allegory.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by hyteckit:
Hmm... what happens when a man is born with a vagina?

What happens when a woman is born with a penis?

What happens when a man is born with both a penis and vagina?

Wow, what would God do?

Man is never judged by what they are, just who they are. - Rumi

[hyteckit]

But you do realize a man born with a vagina will be having homosexual sex. He is going to hell!

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by hyteckit:
But you do realize a man born with a vagina will be having homosexual sex. He is going to hell!

A person who sits and worries about Hell is already there. - Origin

[wolfen]

I'm not getting into the "where do you go" thing because I would have no more credibility than the next guy.

But I do believe you are accountable for what you know. (That includes what you can plausibly deny you know)


wolfen

[Tulkas]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

Knowledge is one of the fruits of the spirit.

And I have also seen great things happen in the name of Jesus.

I believe they are called "miracles" Yes folks, they still happen in this day and age. [/B]

Sorry zim, I don't buy into miracles.

[Tulkas]

Originally posted by hyteckit:
Hmm... what happens when a man is born with a vagina?

What happens when a woman is born with a penis?

What happens when a man is born with both a penis and vagina?

Wow, what would God do?

No, what would Man do. We're judged by our actions, not what we're born with.

[Tulkas]

Originally posted by kmkkid:
So it's a sin to be born into something you have no choice over?


Riiiiiiiight.


And dont give me that "you have a choice" crap, how bout you force yourself (being a straight man I assume) to love a man, then you'll see how we see it. You cant force sexual attraction, it's a chemical thing.

I'm sorry but if living a happy present life will land me in hell, over a hell on earth for heaven, I'll take the happy present life thanks. Cause who even knows if there really is anything after death anyways. (Don't say you do, cause you dont.)


Chris

Thoughts are also chemical things. You either control the body or the body controls you. I've yet to see any solid science to prove your point.

[Tulkas]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
Sucks for Buddah, Dalai Lama, and Gandhi. They stopped wars, spread peace, and litterally saved the lives of millions of people. Now they go to hell for it. Sounds pretty crappy to me.

Okay, todays homework: Find a passage in the new testament which indicates that people who have not sinned BUT have not been baptized are guaranteed to get life in hell.

Oh, and it also doesn't say God sends us to hell.

[Tulkas]

Originally posted by Beewee:
Warning: This thread contains extremely combustable religious material. If you must enter you do so at your own risk.

This is just something I thought while I was bored at work...

I have heard the term "slippery slope" time and time again when it comes to questioning religion. And have heard arguments that "You have a choice" if you want to believe in God and Jesus. But if you choose "no", you're sent to hell. I believe in God and I believe in Jesus, however I am starting to question whether people who don't believe are actually sent to hell.

If hell is a place of suffering and torment where the damned souls reside to burn forever and ever and we assume God is 100% benevolent, how can he/she/it send you to hell for not believing in Jesus?
Isn't it possible that regardless of your beliefs we all go to Heaven or some form of an afterlife?

Pretty simple question, I'm sure it has been discussed before...this should be interesting.

There are some pretty clear cut sins, and then there is the possibility for forgiveness outside the "due process" so to speak

The thief on the cross for instance, he was very lucky.. but if it were me I wouldn't count on God's mercy much if I didn't follow his word.

[Link]

[QUOTEI have heard the term "slippery slope" time and time again when it comes to questioning religion. And have heard arguments that "You have a choice" if you want to believe in God and Jesus. But if you choose "no", you're sent to hell. I believe in God and I believe in Jesus, however I am starting to question whether people who don't believe are actually sent to hell.[/B][/QUOTE]

I've always believed that the perceptions of hell and heaven, to say it, really depend on the person's religious beliefs.. dare I say I don't think there's a right OR wrong.

If you're Catholic then you believe in it, if you're what.. Jewish on the other hand you wouldn't, which would make it irrelevant anyway wouldn't it?

Actually the jewish term was just a quick name I pulled out of my head. I know nothing about the Jewish faith so if I'm wrong well, feel free to correct me

[Face Ache]

Random religious thought -

"If there were no God, it would be necessary to invent him." - Voltaire.

[phoenixboy]

Originally posted by Beewee:
But if you choose "no", you're sent to hell.

cultural cliché. invented by people to control the actions of others. look it up. this argument has been deconstructed for a couple of centuries now. congratulations, welcome to 2004.

Originally posted by Beewee:
If hell is a place of suffering and torment where the damned souls reside to burn forever and ever?

another fairytale. invented by people in the middle east, refering to a "landfill". also been known for a couple of hundred years.

Originally posted by Beewee:
Isn't it possible that regardless of your beliefs we all go to Heaven or some form of an afterlife?

no, there is no "afterlife". nobody goes to hell or heaven after they're dead. makes sense if you think of it. the "model" that there is something inside the body (as a shell) is just another cultural cliché. no brain, no "soul". you can tell by looking at some of the "religious" member's posts here at macnn.

and no, that is not just "my opinion". it's a fact.look it up. there have been about a gazillion books written on this since the enlightenment. just don't go looking for info on google, - you'll probably find nothing more than midgets in tutus fisting each other.

"those who see any difference between soul and body have neither" - o. wilde (not a conservative)

[forkies]

If you believe in the Christian God & Jesus, I think you owe it to yourself and the faith to actually practice it and uphold its tenants. After all, the reason you believe in god is because of The Bible, so why throw away all of the other parts of it?

If you don't want to follow the actual tenants of Christianity (especially the part about judgment as your first post mentioned), why hang on so tightly to the existence of the divine? Is the idea of no god & no afterlife scary? I'd say that's why they were invented in the first place.

[Nicko]

There are thousands of religions and just as many different kinds of gods , dieties, spirits, ect...And each has its own merit and meaning to the people who believe in them.

Frankly I don't see the point, which is probably why I'm atheist.