[Zimphire]

Originally posted by amsalpemkcus:

?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by moonmonkey:
That's just covering their back isn't it? Its like saying "People will approach you asking for proof, cover you ears and hum until they go away".

Oh, and by the way, anyone who asks you for proof is the antichrist.

You can see through this right?

Do you actually think Jesus was trying to trick people into believing his was Christ?

They never said whoever asks for proof is the antichrist.

They said whoever DENIES he is Christ is of the same "spirit" as the antichrist.

Meaning the antichrist will deny Jesus was the Christ, and say he is instead. So whoever denies Christ, is like him.

Not meaning the actual antichrist spoken about in Revelations.

The proof is in the word. Knowledge is one of the fruits of the spirit.

Christ has indeed visited people's souls, and they have gotten "drunk" on his spirit. Causing them to speak in a language they have never known.

I have never experienced this myself, but I have seen people "Under the influence of Jesus"

I have also experienced a lot of shams. When you are in the presence of the real thing. It's hard to deny.

In other words, I would be lying to myself If I were to try to say Jesus was not the Christ the OT spoke of. The people who know, know.

And it's not hard to "know"

If you want nothing to do with Jesus, you will never understand, or know.

It takes a conscience effort, and a true desire in your heart.

I was once a Jesus scoffer too. I hated the guy.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by xenu:
So you don't care that the jesus myth was all made up?
That he only became a god well after he died, by his followers taking the good bits from older religions?

You are easly pleased.

What's the point in trying to bait someone in this type of discussion?

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by wolfen:
God must be larger than christianity. Therefore, any theories contrived to prop up the religion may simultaneously limit one's concept of God.

For example, I don't believe when a sheepherder 6000 years ago said "Choose life" he was saying "the universe is a complex structure incorporating statistically uncertain events in a framework of preordained eventualities. In negotiating one's own role in the universe, God recommends you focus less on the foreordained bits and keep your mind firmly on the events which one seems to exert some influence or control."

And if he wasn't addressing the fabric of the universe, then we should not feel compelled to place his message in such a context at all. If the message has value and meaning without requiring the christian to create a model for reality, then imposing a model is not a work of faith, it is quite the opposite.

There are all kinds of models for reality which would satisfy the boundaries the Bible seems to acknowledge. But most importantly, the work is about negotiating spiritual, psychological, and interpersonal boundaries -- not about coming up with Faithful Physics. I get all grossed out just thinking about a "Physics for the Faithful" pamphlet. Eeewwwwwwww!

Yes, God is MUCH larger than "Christianity." All man can do is try and understand the Mind of God as best we can. "Christians" do this by becoming familiar with the tool He gave us: the Bible, the Living Word of God. By reading and studying the Bible, we are given insight into His mind, thus allowing us to better conform ourselves "to the likeness and image of His Son." By doing this, we maintain a closer, more personal relationship with Him.

Also, I feel God does not intend for us to worry about the pre-ordained things, simply because we can't control them. We are here to do what we can with what He's given us, drawing ourselves closer to Him through study, prayer, worship, praise, etc. The Bible plainly teaches this.

As to your comments on "faithful Physics," i don't see where that fits into anything I've stated.

Maury

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by moonmonkey:
I understand now, It would be silly to say that Jesus never existed, its just all the loaves and fishes, walking on water stuff that people have problems with.

I personally think it strange that people treat second and third hand information as first hand information. Why not explain your own experiences instead of quoting other peoples. A judge would never take information presented in this manner seriously.

I have no problems discussing my personal experiences with God. I plainly remember the day I asked Jesus into my life as my Lord and Savior. It was a life-changing experience, and it was a palpable � almost physical � experience. I won't go into the details here (but will if wanted later), but everything in my life changed at that moment. My outook, my perspective, my motivations. Since then, I have had several "supernatural" experiences that give me faith/physical evidence of His existence to me. I could rattle off personal story after personal story. Things like: healings, experiences with "spiritual warfare" (a term I don't like, but use anyway), experiences within my family, yaddah yaddah yaddah.

Unfortunately, most people still don't take this "seriously" because they don�t believe the basic foundation: God exists and He is a personal God. If you can't at least "argue" with that as a potential, none of my personal stories will be taken "seriously" anyway.

Maury

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
I have no problems discussing my personal experiences with God. I plainly remember the day I asked Jesus into my life as my Lord and Savior. It was a life-changing experience, and it was a palpable � almost physical � experience. I won't go into the details here (but will if wanted later), but everything in my life changed at that moment. My outook, my perspective, my motivations. Since then, I have had several "supernatural" experiences that give me faith/physical evidence of His existence to me. I could rattle off personal story after personal story. Things like: healings, experiences with "spiritual warfare" (a term I don't like, but use anyway), experiences within my family, yaddah yaddah yaddah.

Unfortunately, most people still don't take this "seriously" because they don�t believe the basic foundation: God exists and He is a personal God. If you can't at least "argue" with that as a potential, none of my personal stories will be taken "seriously" anyway.

Maury

Seems like we have had similar experiences.

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Seems like we have had similar experiences.

I think a lot of "Christians" have. I guess I should say, too, that a Christian of the protestant vein, for what it's worth.

Maury

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
I think a lot of "Christians" have. I guess I should say, too, that a Christian of the protestant vein, for what it's worth.

Maury

I really don't consider myself of any "vein"

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I really don't consider myself of any "vein"

That's cool � I guess I was making the point since some people think Catholocism when they think Christianity, and there are some major differences.

Maury

[phoenixboy]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
That's cool � I guess I was making the point since some people think Catholocism when they think Christianity, and there are some major differences.

Maury

what i find baffling, is that some christians don't consider catholics christians. i think i've even heared this mention here in this very forum...

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by phoenixboy:
what i find baffling, is that some christians don't consider catholics christians. i think i've even heared this mention here in this very forum...

The term "Christian" is far too general. Going with my protestant beliefs, if you go to a football stadium and ask how many people are Christian, you'll get however many hands raised. If you then ask how many of them have a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ, the number of hands raised will be severely cut down.

Point being, to me and my beliefs, it's not so much about the "religion" as it is the relationship. I believe that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, and no one comes to the Father but through Him (Jesus). Salvation is what a Christian as Christian, in my faith.

That said, half of my family is Italian � the real, deal Philly kind � and some are "saved" Christians and some aren't.

Maury

[wolfen]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
As to your comments on "faithful Physics," i don't see where that fits into anything I've stated.Maury

You probably didn't realize you did it. It's easily overlooked in religious discussion...

Originally posted by RAILhead:
This answer is simple to those of faith: some items are pre-ordained...<snip>

This is going to seem like nitpicking...but the consequences are huge so try not to feel picked on. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm trying to highlight an issue in discussions of christian dogma.

1) The concept of "pre-ordained" implies a linear timestream. You may recall that a religious institution used to enforce its concept of time and space upon Europe a long time ago. According to them, the Bible required a particular arrangement of the universe -- an incorrect one. Did this glorify God in the slightest, then or now?

1000 years from now, the concept of time may completely change. Until then, requiring God to "pre-ordain" things is an unfounded stretch. It's quite unclear what exactly this would entail, anyway. So it's no use forcing God to behave in any particular way just because we (and those who wrote the book) have an incomplete concept of time. As the Bible says, we should not lean too heavily upon the understanding of men. We certainly shouldn't try to anchor our religious convictions upon the ever-shifting sands of scientific assumption.

There is no need to impose this model on God, who clearly supercedes our senses.

2) Consequently, the implication that those "of faith" (beside you) would impose this model upon God's behavior may not be helpful to your cause. I don't feel that my faith in God is indicated by my understanding of time and space. I have no idea of how God interacts with time, and I wouldn't suppose that my belief or interpretation of the Bible somehow empowers me with the right to restrict him with a declaration about that process.

You are, in effect, saying that faith and "being right" means you understand that God acts in this linear time theory you've constructed. As we've seen, all religiously minded people should be wary of aligning religion and physics. Sometimes the faithful should be ok with saying "I don't know" and leaving it at that.

Again, my point is that the Bible isn't intended to delineate the construction of the universe and the manner of God's interaction with it. Using it to orchestrate a reality that feels good to a particular person is a form of abuse. It is unnecessary to impose these ideas upon God or Christianity for the system to "work" -- and doing so only risks the possibility of making the religious system, and its deity, look stupid if and when such things are found to be foolish later.

The laws of physics are easily overlooked in one's comfy thoughts about God and the Universe. Nevertheless, the implications are large, and our willingness to confront our ignorance directly demonstrates greater faith than insisting that our self-serving theories (based upon limited info) are the work of God.


wolfen

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
Point being, to me and my beliefs, it's not so much about the "religion" as it is the relationship..

Indeed.

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by wolfen:
You probably didn't realize you did it. It's easily overlooked in religious discussion...

SNIP

1) The concept of "pre-ordained" implies a linear timestream. You may recall that a religious institution used to enforce its concept of time and space upon Europe a long time ago. According to them, the Bible required a particular arrangement of the universe -- an incorrect one. Did this glorify God in the slightest, then or now?

SNIP

You are, in effect, saying that faith and "being right" means you understand that God acts in this linear time theory you've constructed. As we've seen, all religiously minded people should be wary of aligning religion and physics. Sometimes the faithful should be ok with saying "I don't know" and leaving it at that.

SNIP

The laws of physics are easily overlooked in one's comfy thoughts about God and the Universe. Nevertheless, the implications are large, and our willingness to confront our ignorance directly demonstrates greater faith than insisting that our self-serving theories (based upon limited info) are the work of God.

wolfen

I don't see that pre-ordained has anythign whatsoever to do with Time. Pre-ordained simply means to know that thus and such will happen. It's is pre-ordained that jesus will return in the second coming, but no one knows when. The Bible states that God Himself was asked when, and He replied when the number of them that are to be numbered, are numbered. Pre-ordained, to me, has nothing to do with Time at all -- it only has to do with what will come to pass.

Your other comments fall to the above statement of mine, and I don't believe there is a "linear timeline" to God.

Maury

[Zimphire]

Not that any of this matters in the grand scheme of things.

It's actually sorta petty IMHO.

[wolfen]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
Pre-ordained, to me, has nothing to do with Time at all -- it only has to do with what will come to pass.

Well, Maury, if you're going to ignore things like the meanings of words an intelligent discussion on the matter is quite impossible.

[OH-N'omac]

Originally posted by phoenixboy:
what i find baffling, is that some christians don't consider catholics christians. i think i've even heared this mention here in this very forum...

There are many branches within the larger church in the US, some bitterly opposed to each other. Many of the modern pentacostal/born-again variety see the catholics as idol worshipers and Mary-worshippers. Both these groups seem put off by the Episcopalians, who allow women ministers and recently a gay bishop. Then there are the Mormons who have historically embraced polygamy to the dismay of other christian branches, the Jehovahs Witnesses who think that there's no more room in heaven and that there hasn't been since 1935 (more recent converts may be eligible for a lifetime in the paradise earth instead), a few other branches that cater to specific niches, various groups of wackos who blow up abortion clinics or let poisionous snakes bite them, etc, etc, etc. Some of these groups have belief systems that allow the other groups a shot at going to heaven, but others do not. Many of them believe in agressively recruiting through missionary work or evangelizing in public spaces (like this one).

"The Bible" is another polymorphic thing, which one? There are many different versions, all a little different, some very different, all claimed by literalists to be the absolute and unchangable word of god and proof of their beliefs. Many of these were also copied by hand over the years by monks with a reputation for "christianizing" whatever texts they could get their hands on.

...which brings us back to the dilemma at the start of the thread, if there is a heaven, who can say for certain who is going and who is not. Essentially, how can any one group claim to be right to the exclusion of all other groups.

[xenu]

Originally posted by MacNStein:


What's the point in trying to bait someone in this type of discussion?

What bait?

Try learning something.

It amazes me that christians have no idea where their beliefs come from.

[xenu]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Go look at other historical documents about Jesus that weren't in the Bible.

SURPRISE.. they match up.

Written well after his death. Hearsay is not evidence.

You know that jesus wasn't the first to be born of a virgin birth, don't you?
He wasn't the first to walk on water.
He wasn't the first to perform various miracles.
He wasn't the first to be nailed to something, and left to die.
He wasn't the first to come back to life a few days later.

Given that, why should anyone belief that the 'jesus myth' was not simply taken from older religions. There is nothing written during his life time to suggest he did any of these things.

[benign]

Cat or doggie heaven - where are they ?

That the creators namesake should have no home in heaven
is strange, for an all-loving divine christian god to have no rules
guiding the welfare or cruelty of animals in very suspect.

The divine one left man the real devil on earth and animals
the tortured souls.

We are of the animal world and not distinct from it.
If a life spark exists in us - so too the animals.

Yet the christian god has no words to protect or love them.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by xenu:
It amazes me that christians have no idea where their beliefs come from.

I have a pretty good idea.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by xenu:
Written well after his death. Hearsay is not evidence.

You know that jesus wasn't the first to be born of a virgin birth, don't you?
He wasn't the first to walk on water.
He wasn't the first to perform various miracles.
He wasn't the first to be nailed to something, and left to die.
He wasn't the first to come back to life a few days later.

Deceptions.

Matthew 7:15-20
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."

Matthew 24:24-25
For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect -- if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time.

2 Corinthians 11:3-4
But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workman, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising then that his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. There end will be what their actions deserve.


2 Peter 2:1-3
ut there were also false prophets among the people, just as their will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Sovereign Lord who brought them - bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up.

1 John 4:1-3 Test the Spirits
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is coming into the world.

Given that, why should anyone belief that the 'jesus myth' was not simply taken from older religions. There is nothing written during his life time to suggest he did any of these things.

I believe there was.

There is no "Jesus Myth"

Jesus did indeed exist. Now weather or not you believe he was the Christ. That is a different story.

[xenu]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

Deceptions.

snip

There is no "Jesus Myth"

Jesus did indeed exist. Now weather or not you believe he was the Christ. That is a different story. [/B]

LOL. Ignorance really is bliss, isn't it?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by xenu:
LOL. Ignorance really is bliss, isn't it?

If you can somehow PROVE that Jesus really didn't exist. You'd have a point.

You believe he didn't. That is based on faith also. Because you really don't know either.

So you are calling me ignorant because I don't agree with you. Not because what I believe in is wrong.

[benign]

A couple of guys in the desert form a religion.
from a pantheist to a monotheist cult...
Then some of them make up a splinter group.

how to top that first bunch they say ?
How about this, one god becomes two and walks and talks
with us - how about that ?
Performing miracles - yes of course miracles - lots of conjuring tricks.
Sounds plausible they say - lets do it.
Disaster ! - he gets done in by the first bunch and hung like
a common criminal - no biggie they say we'll just carry on
without him - no ones the wiser - better off this way !
We'll say he'll return but give no fixed date - excellent idea.

Fast forward six hundred years...
A couple of guys in the desert form a religion.
how to top those others they say ?
Especially the last ones - boy were they
pushing the boat out on that last one or what.

We'll get an illiterate to live in a tent give him
plenty of women to keep him interested
and everyday god will visit and whisper poetry
to him for about forty years.
Sounds plausible they say - lets do it.

[xenu]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
If you can somehow PROVE that Jesus really didn't exist. You'd have a point.

You believe he didn't. That is based on faith also. Because you really don't know either.

So you are calling me ignorant because I don't agree with you. Not because what I believe in is wrong.

I am calling you ignorant because your reply was equivalent to sticking your fingers in your ears, and saying "I'm not listening".

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by xenu:
I am calling you ignorant because your reply was equivalent to sticking your fingers in your ears, and saying "I'm not listening".

No, You assume I have never heard what you have to say before.

I have indeed.

I gave you the answers to your claim. You blocked them out. (Didn't even quote them)

So who has his fingers in his ears?

[xenu]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
No, You assume I have never heard what you have to say before.

I have indeed.

I gave you the answers to your claim. You blocked them out. (Didn't even quote them)

So who has his fingers in his ears?

You gave no answers. Just excuses for your ignorance.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by xenu:
You gave no answers. Just excuses for your ignorance.

Would you like me to post them again?

You don't serve up a very good argument. Ad-hominem attacks really don't make you look "in the know"

Esp in this case.

[greenG4]

Originally posted by xenu:
LOL. Ignorance really is bliss, isn't it?

Even if you don't want to believe Jesus is the Messiah (which he is), and the only way to God(which he is), you can't say he didn't exist without showing yourself ignorant. Seriously, there is a lot of archeological evidence that the man lived.

[xenu]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Would you like me to post them again?

You don't serve up a very good argument. Ad-hominem attacks really don't make you look "in the know"

Esp in this case.

LOL. Excuses don't become arguments just because you post them twice.

You know the jesus myth was copied from older religions. You give excuses why you ignore that evidence.

That's ignorance.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by xenu:
LOL. Excuses don't become arguments just because you post them twice.

They weren't excuses. Debunk them if it's so easy.

You know the jesus myth was copied from older religions. You give excuses why you ignore that evidence.

That's ignorance.

There is no evidence. If there was, All of Christianity would be gone. You have FAITH he didn't exist. There is no proof. You need to learn to argue your side a bit more.

This "OMG U R TEH MORON" type arguments you keep shooting up doesn't do anything for your "side"

Originally posted by greenG4:
Even if you don't want to believe Jesus is the Messiah (which he is), and the only way to God(which he is), you can't say he didn't exist without showing yourself ignorant. Seriously, there is a lot of archeological evidence that the man lived.

Indeed. But yet, he calls me ignorant.

[xenu]

Originally posted by greenG4:
Even if you don't want to believe Jesus is the Messiah (which he is), and the only way to God(which he is), you can't say he didn't exist without showing yourself ignorant. Seriously, there is a lot of archeological evidence that the man lived.

And no evidence that he was anything else.

I'm not arguing about the man jesus.
The myth created after his death however, is open to argument.

The evidence strongly suggests the myth was simply copied from the older hindu and egyptian religions.

There are simply too many one-to-one similarities for any other explaination.

[OH-N'omac]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
If you can somehow PROVE that Jesus really didn't exist,

The proof of something is the chore of the person saying that thing exists.

Once upon a time there was a great purple creature covered with patches of rainbow-colored fur. The creature summoned candy from the trees and made many people happy. One day, some people with orange fur killed the candy-loving creature. This made other people sad. ... if you think this didn't happen, and I think it did, the burden of proof would be on me to substantiate it, not you to show that that it is a fib. The only proof you have is a book that's been rewritten and reinterpreted and rewritten again over and over for hundreds of years. In other words, no proof at all to anyone.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by xenu:
And no evidence that he was anything else.

I'm not arguing about the man jesus.
The myth created after his death however, is open to argument.

The evidence strongly suggests the myth was simply copied from the older hindu and egyptian religions.

There are simply too many one-to-one similarities for any other explaination.

And I showed you where in the Bible it claimed too that there has been many
"copies" of Jesus. The Bible doesn't go against that. It AGREES with you.

They are false prophets.

Now, you can say "Well I don't believe that" And that is fine.

But to call anyone ignorant because they don't by the same line of FAITH you do is a bit silly.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by OH-N'omac:
The proof of something is the chore of the person saying that thing exists.

Hey, I am not saying I can PROVE it. I can't. I rely on faith.

He is however saying it's FACTUAL that Jesus was a myth. And I am ignorant for not believing that FACT.

When it's not a fact. He believes that, and has faith in that. Just like I believe and have faith in the opposite.

He is claiming I am ignorant for not admitting that his belief is factual. When it has not been proven either.

[xenu]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
And I showed you where in the Bible it claimed too that there has been many
"copies" of Jesus. The Bible doesn't go against that. It AGREES with you.

They are false prophets.

Now, you can say "Well I don't believe that" And that is fine.

But to call anyone ignorant because they don't by the same line of FAITH you do is a bit silly.

LOL.

That's right, ignore the evidence because a book tells you to.

How comfortable that must make you feel.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by xenu:
LOL.

That's right, ignore the evidence because a book tells you to.

How comfortable that must make you feel.

That isn't evidence. That is heresy. There is a difference.

Unless you can prove beyond the shadow of doubt that Jesus was made up. you have no case. And your belief is also based on faith.

Come to gripes with it.

[greenG4]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Hey, I am not saying I can PROVE it. I can't. I rely on faith.

He is however saying it's FACTUAL that Jesus was a myth. And I am ignorant for not believing that FACT.

When it's not a fact. He believes that, and has faith in that. Just like I believe and have faith in the opposite.

He is claiming I am ignorant for not admitting that his belief is factual. When it has not been proven either.

There's really nothing we can SAY to anyone to make them realize what we already know. The bible makes it clear that many will be presented with the truth and will reject it, as that is their choice. But it's not too late until you're dead. We will pray for you.

[Altix]

And we all come winding back to one crucial thing, that all of this, either side, is belief, just belief.

Some God that is to let us not have anything concrete to believe in.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by greenG4:
There's really nothing we can SAY to anyone to make them realize what we already know. The bible makes it clear that many will be presented with the truth and will reject it, as that is their choice. But it's not too late until you're dead.

Right of course. xenu has a problem with coming to grips that his belief about Jesus is also based on faith.

He wants to dupe us into thinking it's factual. Without showing any facts. Facts do not = heresy.

Now if he were to say "I don't believe Jesus existed because of the things I have read" That is fine. That is on him.

[greenG4]

I think what many people miss is that Christianity is NOT a religeon. It is a personal relationship with God made possible through Jesus. It's not about a book . It's not about feeling good. It's about that personal relationship that God wants with us. (The purpose of creation)

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Altix:
And we all come winding back to one crucial thing, that all of this, either side, is belief, just belief.

Some God that is to let us not have anything concrete to believe in.

If it was concrete and he proved himself. Where would free will go? It's through faith and trust do we gain knowledge.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by greenG4:
I think what many people miss is that Christianity is NOT a religeon. It is a personal relationship with God made possible through Jesus. It's not about a book . It's not about feeling good. It's about that personal relationship that God wants with us. (The purpose of creation)

Nice too see more Christians "Coming out" in this thread as well.

Some that I never knew were Christian.

[greenG4]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
If it was concrete and he proved himself. Where would free will go? It's through faith and trust do we gain knowledge.

By Faith, throu Grace...

[greenG4]

Originally posted by Zimphire:


Nice too see more Christians "Coming out" in this thread as well.

Some that I never knew were Christian.

I keep quit until I feel I can add intelligent thought.

[Altix]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
If it was concrete and he proved himself. Where would free will go? It's through faith and trust do we gain knowledge.

That's what I said, you have, and a belief in something that is not a universal fact, or has been demonstrated to be anything like that. The notion of free will in the divine plan comes out from your faith, and belief, but to others, there's just free will, with none of the trappings of religion.

That's for both sides, believers, and non-believers.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Altix:
That's what I said, you have, and a belief in something that is not a universal fact, or has been demonstrated to be anything like that. The notion of free will in the divine plan comes out from your faith, and belief, but to others, there's just free will, with none of the trappings of religion.

That's for both sides, believers, and non-believers.

Belief and faith in God isn't trapping. I assure you.

It's very liberating.

[Altix]

Originally posted by greenG4:
I think what many people miss is that Christianity is NOT a religeon. It is a personal relationship with God made possible through Jesus. It's not about a book . It's not about feeling good. It's about that personal relationship that God wants with us. (The purpose of creation)

Not entirely true, since not all Christians believed as such in that notion you expressed, especially the early branches of 'Christianity' that sprouted up around the time after Christ. It;s the religion that gives Christianity it;s structure, but that's not to say you don't view it as a personal relationship. The varying Christian churches certainly have their structure, hence religion.

[Altix]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Belief and faith in God isn't trapping. I assure you.

It's very liberating.

Which is why I said religion, and not God, the difference can be striking. Also, again, that is your belief it is not trapping, to others it is. All belief,.