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Agasthya · Oct 27, 2004, 12:23 AM

Originally posted by itai195:
I feel vindicated since I've been saying the Cards aren't really that good all year

Seriously, the NL was just weak. Any of the AL's playoff teams could have won the series this year.

I don't know.

I still think the Cards are the best team in baseball. Perhaps this series would be different if that stupid rule for home field wasn't in play and the Cards were rewarded for their hard work throughout the season. Perhaps this series would be different if the Red Sox Organization weren't complete retards and didn't put the Cards in a hotel almost 45 minutes away from Fenway. The Sox also got one extra day of rest. There are a lot of little things but the bottom line right now is that the Cardinals are not executing. Jim Edmonds and Scott Rolen look absolutely pathetic at the plate - Edmonds in particular. Renteria hasn't hit leadoff all year and our retarded manager puts him there and he has struggled (BIG SURPRISE!).

In my mind this series was lost in a lot of little places. First and foremost, the biggest mistake that was made by the Redbirds was in game 1. Bases loaded and 1 out for Rolen and he pops out ON THE FIRST PITCH HE SEES. Edmonds then comes in and does his thing (which is almost always a strikeout nowadays). Secondly, the horrendous pitching in game 2. The Sox got all their runs with two outs and two strike counts. It was pathetic. Finally, today, the baserunning errors by Suppan and Walker were inexcusable. We really should have had the lead in the early innings and kept on pounding Pedro since he didn't have his best stuff early in the game. Instead we ****ed things up nicely and are in a pretty big ****ing mess right now.

I think the organization needs to make some pretty drastic changes in the offseason even though we had an extremely successful season. First of all, LaRussa cannot be brought back. He has shown his incompetence more than once in the playoffs and frankly, his record speaks for itself. He has only one 1 world championship and even that was aided by an earthquake. He got swept by an inferior Cincinnati team and it is pretty obvious that he does not know how to manage a big game. Secondly, Mitchell Page (the hitting instructor) needs to be let go. Everyone is praising him but I mean, come on, look at how Edmonds has completely fallen apart in the latter part of the season. The people that hit well on our team are already good hitters, if you want to see the true genius of the hitting instructor, look at the bench players. Our bench has been dizmal this postseason and they have looked awful in their at bats. Finally, we need a power pitcher. Someone that can throw 96-97mph. We're going to have a lot of salary room next year because we won't bring back Matt Morris and probably not Woody at $8 million/year. I wouldn't be surprised if Walt Jocketty made a run at Randy Johnson.

And my final thought:

It is just frustrating to watch these games...

nforcer · Oct 27, 2004, 12:43 AM

Originally posted by itai195:
Seriously, the NL was just weak. Any of the AL's playoff teams could have won the series this year.

I agree. But then again I say an AL team should win every year, because the NL is crippled with that stupid rule where the pitcher must bat. That idea might have been okay back in early days of baseball when pitching was not so specialized. But as the role of pitcher has become more specialized and full-time, it makes sense to let pitchers concentrate on what they are supposed to do best (pitch), and not force them to bat. Give their position in the batting lineup to someone who can actually do the job right (a DH) and not fail so miserably at it.

No one expects a pitcher to do anything big with a bat, and it takes the excitement out of the game. A pitcher batting is mostly an automatic out. Or in the case of the Cardinals tonight, an automatic 2 outs because some pitchers aren't very good baserunners, either.

No one would let fielders rotate jobs every inning so one of them can get to pitch, so why should we let pitchers rotate through the batting order so they can get to bat? I guess whatever makes the Cubs suck that much more is better for everyone.

teaforone · Oct 27, 2004, 12:58 AM

Originally posted by nforcer:
Blah blah blah.

What? Having the pitcher bat is not stupid. It's baseball the way it was meant to be. The DH rule has always been, and always will be, stupid. Every player in the lineup should play both parts of the game - defense and offense. Quit your whining.

shabbasuraj · Oct 27, 2004, 01:11 AM

After watching today's pathetic display....

RIP CARDINALS 2004.

cjrivera · Oct 27, 2004, 01:27 AM

Originally posted by itai195:
I feel vindicated since I've been saying the Cards aren't really that good all year

Seriously, the NL was just weak. Any of the AL's playoff teams could have won the series this year.

You mean the same Cardinals that took 11 of 12 from AL teams this year including Texas and Oakland?

The Cards have been good all year, they're just sucking right now.

I just got back from the game, and it is disappointing to watch the Cards lose the game like they did. We're just haveing a bad streak, right when the Sox are peaking. Doesn't mean the Cards were bad all year.

And we're not done yet. Wasn't there another team recently that was down 0-3 games and left for dead in the Playoffs? All it takes is a 4 game winning streak. (Yeah, I know I'm dreaming.)

Here's some pix I took at the game -

Before the slaughter....

...and this pretty well sums up the mood after the game.

Albert Pujols · Oct 27, 2004, 01:41 AM

Originally posted by cjrivera:

...and this pretty well sums up the mood after the game.

sums up my mood since game one.

Well since I live near Boston, atleast there won't be any school the day after the Sox win (if they win). Everyone will be at the parade.

teaforone · Oct 27, 2004, 01:44 AM

Heh. I hate the Cardinals. I don't mind seeing them lose at all.

itai195 · Oct 27, 2004, 01:44 AM

Originally posted by cjrivera:
You mean the same Cardinals that took 11 of 12 from AL teams this year including Texas and Oakland?

I realize they're your favorite team so I don't want to rub salt in your wounds. My favorite team nearly made the playoffs, but I admit that it was an awful team this year (Giants). It would've been an abomination for a team like ours to make the playoffs with an awful bullpen, awful hitting, poor starting pitching, and poor defense. When a team like that is almost good enough to qualify for the postseason, what does that say about the rest of the league? The Dodgers, Astros, and Braves of 2004 were all rather mediocre in the grand scheme of things. The Cardinals were the class of the NL this year, no doubt, but what they did during the regular season doesn't matter at this point. This also isn't the first time some of the Cards' big hitters have choked in a playoff series (as a Giants fan, I remember the 2002 NLCS). In your favor at least we now know it's possible to come back from down 3-0 and you've also got an 86 year old curse working against your opponents

I agree with Agasthya regarding Larussa, he is perhaps the most overrated manager in the game after Dusty Baker.

Agasthya · Oct 27, 2004, 01:47 AM

cj, I would have hopes like you if we were playing good ball and just barely getting beaten but we aren't. Boston is not playing well either, they are just feasting on our mistakes. The fact that the majority of their RBIs have come in two out/two strike situations just means that our pitchers aren't making the pitches they need to when they need to. Issuing 14 walks in the first two games is a recipe for disaster.

Who knows, this Redbird team has shown resiliancy all year long and if Jason Marquis gives us something we have been sorely lacking - 7 solid innings - then maybe we do have a shot. Pedro looked very beatable in the first couple of innings but we couldn't seal the deal.

Agasthya · Oct 27, 2004, 01:50 AM

Originally posted by itai195:
I agree with Agasthya regarding Larussa, he is perhaps the most overrated manager in the game after Dusty Baker.

Heh, Dusty really proved his worth this year, didn't he? He got angry at Steve Stone for pointing out that the team choked when they had a chance to make the playoffs. Come on Dusty, let the man tell it like it is.

TheMosco · Oct 27, 2004, 01:53 AM

Originally posted by Agasthya:
I don't know.

I still think the Cards are the best team in baseball. Perhaps this series would be different if that stupid rule for home field wasn't in play and the Cards were rewarded for their hard work throughout the season. Perhaps this series would be different if the Red Sox Organization weren't complete retards and didn't put the Cards in a hotel almost 45 minutes away from Fenway. The Sox also got one extra day of rest. There are a lot of little things but the bottom line right now is that the Cardinals are not executing. Jim Edmonds and Scott Rolen look absolutely pathetic at the plate - Edmonds in particular. Renteria hasn't hit leadoff all year and our retarded manager puts him there and he has struggled (BIG SURPRISE!).

In my mind this series was lost in a lot of little places. First and foremost, the biggest mistake that was made by the Redbirds was in game 1. Bases loaded and 1 out for Rolen and he pops out ON THE FIRST PITCH HE SEES. Edmonds then comes in and does his thing (which is almost always a strikeout nowadays). Secondly, the horrendous pitching in game 2. The Sox got all their runs with two outs and two strike counts. It was pathetic. Finally, today, the baserunning errors by Suppan and Walker were inexcusable. We really should have had the lead in the early inningsand kept on pounding Pedro since he didn't have his best stuff early in the game. Instead we ****ed things up nicely and are in a pretty big ****ing mess right now.

You don't seem to be giving the sox any credit at all. Sox getting an extra day of rest? Did you see the red sox/yankees series? The extra inning games? Using every pitcher in the bullpen? Schilling bloody Sock? Trust me, I doubt the sox went into the series feeling any better than the Cards.

Home Field Rule? Hotel 45 Minutes away? If the Cardinals were the best team in baseball shouldn't they able to overcome things like that? That is what great teams do.

Hopefully tomorrow the sox can win, if Lowe can pitch a good game and I think he can. We will see though, series aint over yet.

Agasthya · Oct 27, 2004, 02:05 AM

Originally posted by TheMosco:
You don't seem to be giving the sox any credit at all. Sox getting an extra day of rest? Did you see the red sox/yankees series? The extra inning games? Using every pitcher in the bullpen? Schilling bloody Sock? Trust me, I doubt the sox went into the series feeling any better than the Cards.

Home Field Rule? Hotel 45 Minutes away? If the Cardinals were the best team in baseball shouldn't they able to overcome things like that? That is what great teams do.

Hopefully tomorrow the sox can win, if Lowe can pitch a good game and I think he can. We will see though, series aint over yet.

Honestly, the Sox don't deserve much credit. The Cards have practically handed this series to them. 8 ERRORS in two games is not solid play. Blowing huge leads in game 1 is not solid play. The Cards are just dead. They seem to have nothing left in the tank and at this point I think even the Devil Rays could give them a run for their money. Did you even watch todays game? Did you see some of the swings by the Cardinal hitters after the baserunning errors? It was just pathetic.

The Sox have a great team and if you ask any of my friends they'll tell you that I always cheer for them when they aren't playing the Redbirds but man, this series has been a total meltdown for the Cards. The pitchers are throwing "excuse me" fastballs over the heart of the plate and the Sox are just creaming them (which is what you'd expect major league batters to do).

Of all the things, I think the home field rule is the most significant because you aren't rewarded for being the best team. And I bet if you ask any of the Cardinal players where they would rather start a series, they would all say that they would prefer to begin in Busch because they earned it.

And finally, the hotel situation does matter. Imagine it takes you 45 minutes to DRIVE to your destination before the biggest games of your life. It is a big deal and it is a huge distraction and the Sox should be ashamed at themselves for putting the Cardinals in such a situation.

cjrivera · Oct 27, 2004, 02:07 AM

Originally posted by itai195:
I realize they're your favorite team so I don't want to rub salt in your wounds. My favorite team nearly made the playoffs, but I admit that it was an awful team this year (Giants). It would've been an abomination for a team like ours to make the playoffs with an awful bullpen, awful hitting, poor starting pitching, and poor defense. When a team like that is almost good enough to qualify for the postseason, what does that say about the rest of the league? The Dodgers, Astros, and Braves of 2004 were all rather mediocre in the grand scheme of things. The Cardinals were the class of the NL this year, no doubt, but what they did during the regular season doesn't matter at this point. This also isn't the first time some of the Cards' big hitters have choked in a playoff series (as a Giants fan, I remember the 2002 NLCS). In your favor at least we now know it's possible to come back from down 3-0 and you've also got an 86 year old curse working against your opponents

I agree with Agasthya regarding Larussa, he is perhaps the most overrated manager in the game after Dusty Baker.

I don't take it as salt in the wounds. I'm just disagreeing about the Cards not being "that good" this year. I'm not a fan who overlooks his team's shotcomings, like a horrible manager and questionable starting pitching, but that's about it. During the year they had great hitting, excellent relief pitching, and an outstanding defense. I will agree that they've been atrocious during the WS and the regular season doesn't mean anything at this point. But it doesn't take away from what was accomplished during the regular season either.

And the Cards do have a history of choking at the plate, especially in recent WS ('85 and '87) and NL playoffs. I can't explain it.

Oh well, at least it isn't the Cubs breaking their curse.

Agasthya · Oct 27, 2004, 02:17 AM

Originally posted by cjrivera:
Oh well, at least it isn't the Cubs breaking their curse.

I was really hoping Boston would break their curse... but just not against us

nforcer · Oct 27, 2004, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by teaforone:
What? Having the pitcher bat is not stupid. It's baseball the way it was meant to be. The DH rule has always been, and always will be, stupid. Every player in the lineup should play both parts of the game - defense and offense. Quit your whining.

"Every player in the lineup should play both parts of the game - defense and offense" except most pitchers can't play offense very competently. I don't see the point of having a guy do something he can't do well. You probably wouldn't have a kindergardener rebuild your car engine. So why let a guy who has a high probability of doing nothing offensively bat in your lineup? Because that's the way it's "meant to be"?

The "meant to be" argument is the about poorest argument one can use for anything. If you want to play baseball "the way it was meant to be" then a ball fielded on one bounce should also be an out, pitching should be underhand, fielders should be able to throw a ball at a base runner to get an out, and the first team to score 21 runs in however many innings it takes should be the winner.

Notice that pitching should be underhand idea? That's because back in the earlier days, pitching sucked and was not specialized. It was just a guy throwing a ball, so it made sense to let him bat because pitching wasn't anything that really made or lost the game. Nowadays, pitchers have to be masterful of several different pitches, be accurate with location, know the strength and weaknesses of the batters in the other lineup, be able to handle high stress situations, etc. You have setup guys, relievers, closers... Pitching has become more a full-time job, and no one expects a pitcher to bat very well. So why let him bat at all?

Like everything else, baseball evolves. The AL has embraced the evolution, and until the NL does I just don't expect them to be as competitive.

Agasthya · Oct 27, 2004, 09:00 PM

OK MARQUIS YOU STUPID DUMBASS. THROW A ****ING FIRST PITCH STRIKE PLEASE.

ManOfSteal · Oct 27, 2004, 09:30 PM

Originally posted by Agasthya:
OK MARQUIS YOU STUPID DUMBASS. THROW A ****ING FIRST PITCH STRIKE PLEASE.

Agasthya · Oct 27, 2004, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by manofsteal:

No ****ing joke.

What kind of retarded piece of **** manager is Tony LaRussa? No one warming up in the bullpen?! God what a complete moron.

Albert Pujols · Oct 27, 2004, 09:45 PM

Originally posted by Agasthya:
No ****ing joke.

What kind of retarded piece of **** manager is Tony LaRussa? No one warming up in the bullpen?! God what a complete moron.

Tony LaRussa = the next Grady Little.

Agasthya · Oct 27, 2004, 09:52 PM

The Red Sox should send a "THANK YOU" card to: Jeff Suppan, Tony LaRussa, Jason Marquis, Woody Williams, Matt Morris, and the 4-5-6 hitters for the Cards.

King Bob On The Cob · Oct 27, 2004, 11:44 PM

Well, now that that's over, it's on to the Rams... Two weeks and STL is coming back for ya New England!

Truepop · Oct 27, 2004, 11:44 PM

w00t @ sox

Agasthya · Oct 27, 2004, 11:47 PM

Originally posted by King Bob On The Cob:
Well, now that that's over, it's on to the Rams... Two weeks and STL is coming back for ya New England!

Are you ****ing kidding me? We just lost to MIAMI! heh.

Congrats to the Red Sox. Don't forget those Thank You cards to the Redbirds.

What makes me the happiest about this is that those asshole Yankee fans won't be able to hold up giant banners that say "1918" or some stupid **** like that.

King Bob On The Cob · 12:12 AM

*Note to self*
Don't reload this.

d4nth3m4n · Oct 28, 2004, 12:20 AM

Originally posted by Agasthya:
Are you ****ing kidding me? We just lost to MIAMI! heh.

Congrats to the Red Sox. Don't forget those Thank You cards to the Redbirds.

What makes me the happiest about this is that those asshole Yankee fans won't be able to hold up giant banners that say "1918" or some stupid **** like that.

as a yankee fan, i now can safely say that it will be nice next year to not hear the whining about the curse from either side of the fence.

congrats sox!

and to those of you in New England- be careful, but don't go back to work until tuesday, between this an halloween, i think you have a pretty solid excuse.

cjrivera · Oct 28, 2004, 12:35 AM

Congrats to the Sox.

They played a helluva ALCS and WS.

Like I said during the end of the NLCS, I wanted the Sox to win (because I hate the Yankees), but I wanted the Yankees to win (because I thought the Cards would have a better chance at winning the WS). Although, the way the Cards hit the last 4 games, you could have put in a A farm team and they would have had a hard time beating them.

vmpaul · Oct 28, 2004, 01:10 AM

I'm glad this is the last we'll hear of the Curse.

Now when they don't win they'll just be a lousy team like everyone else.

Hats off to the Red Sox though. They did it in dramatic and convincing fashion.

teaforone · Oct 28, 2004, 01:12 AM

Originally posted by nforcer:
More crap.

You're hopeless.

Anyway, congrats to the Red Sox.

JHromadka · Oct 28, 2004, 02:14 PM

Originally posted by Agasthya:
Honestly, the Sox don't deserve much credit. The Cards have practically handed this series to them. 8 ERRORS in two games is not solid play. Blowing huge leads in game 1 is not solid play. The Cards are just dead. They seem to have nothing left in the tank and at this point I think even the Devil Rays could give them a run for their money. Did you even watch todays game? Did you see some of the swings by the Cardinal hitters after the baserunning errors? It was just pathetic.

The Sox have a great team and if you ask any of my friends they'll tell you that I always cheer for them when they aren't playing the Redbirds but man, this series has been a total meltdown for the Cards. The pitchers are throwing "excuse me" fastballs over the heart of the plate and the Sox are just creaming them (which is what you'd expect major league batters to do).

Of all the things, I think the home field rule is the most significant because you aren't rewarded for being the best team. And I bet if you ask any of the Cardinal players where they would rather start a series, they would all say that they would prefer to begin in Busch because they earned it.

And finally, the hotel situation does matter. Imagine it takes you 45 minutes to DRIVE to your destination before the biggest games of your life. It is a big deal and it is a huge distraction and the Sox should be ashamed at themselves for putting the Cardinals in such a situation.

I know you're bummed about the Cards losing (believe me, I was in your position last week), but don't taint your teams accomplishments this season by making external excuses for their performance in the WS. STL just didn't take advantage of Boston's mistakes like they did to Houston during the NLCS. I could whine about managerial decisions and poor hitting in key situations, but it wouldn't make me feel any better. I'm just proud that my team finally beat f'n Atlanta and gave STL a run for their money.

I think the Allstar game deciding hf advantage is stupid also, but the way STL played, they could have had every game at home and still lost.

A 45 min drive is NOTHING. Come to Texas sometime where all distances are measured in hours.

Or maybe it was the lunar eclipse. Yeah, that's the ticket!