[SuvsareRetarded]

Originally Posted by LeChuck

bitching about FPS games

Try this. Seriously.

http://www.ambrosiasw.com/games/gooball/

[The iMac Man]

Originally Posted by LeChuck

Well, I'd hardly call Half-Life or Quake "great games". For me that type of games have mostly killed any originality we could have before in the gaming world. Today every other game is an First Person Shooter, and they're the only ones that companies bother porting. Every franchise that is bought turns into an FPS game.

Look at some shareware or less known commercial games for some excellent entertainment. Find info on "Gish" for one fantastic physics/platform game, and there are many less known but excellent shooter, arcade, platform games from companies that make the effort to develop great playability for the Mac. Go have a look on Versiontracker and equivalent sites. So I guess it's more about which type of gaming you are into.

But what's the deal with having so much difficulty simply connecting a gamepad to a Mac?

As far as game ports, I'd love for some companies to port games such as Silent Storm and sequel, and other soon to be released, less known games with fantastic gameplay, and why not port some sports? There are plenty of tennis game to be ported.

Get those FPS out of my sight.

I'm sorry, but Half Life and Quake ARE great games, and if you think otherwise, you are obviously basing your opinion on some sort of bias. FPS games are great games, and you can't discredit an FPS just because there are already other FPSes out there. If you were to do that, you'd have to dismiss Gish because Super Mario Brothers already owned the platform genre.

Games don't have to be all about originality to be good.

Gamepads are for consoles, not computers. You have a mouse and keyboard... use them... that's the way games were intended to be played. Gamepads are just workarounds for consoles...

Why would a company spend all that time and money to port a "less known" game, as you put it? There is NO way they'd make their money back. That's an unfortunate side-effect of Mac gaming... they can only port the AAA games if they want to make any money at it.

And, FPS games aren't the only games being ported to the Mac. Recently, the only games which seem to be getting ported are Sims and Tycoon games... which, to me, is a really really bad sign for Mac gaming.

[LeChuck]

The iMac Man]I'm sorry, but Half Life and Quake ARE great games, and if you think otherwise, you are obviously basing your opinion on some sort of bias.

A bias? Would that be the bias that I dislike FPSs? well, yes, I do!

FPS games are great games, and you can't discredit an FPS just because there are already other FPSes out there.

Not because there are already others, I dislike *all* FPS games and I wish companies would put a little bit of effort on the other types of games, especially on the Mac. It's not because many people like FPS games that there is no market for the others.

Games don't have to be all about originality to be good.

That's your point of view.

Gamepads are for consoles, not computers. You have a mouse and keyboard... use them... that's the way games were intended to be played. Gamepads are just workarounds for consoles...

I was playing games on consoles with gamepads a long time before anybody owned anything that we would call today a "personal computer". My keyboard allows me to type text, email, messages, like I'm doing now, development, and my mouse allows me to work as well, especially with Photoshop, which is why I have a fancy mouse that I certainly won't want to mess up with a click-fest. A gamepad is meant to play [b]games[b] for me but if you need to rationalize the fact that they don't work well on the Mac, go ahead. It's true that if you play only FPS type games, you don't need one. It would be impractical actually. But I prefer a good game pad for a soccer or tennis game, or even shoot'em up game, just as I prefer a wheel to drive a car.

Why would a company spend all that time and money to port a "less known" game, as you put it?

Maybe they are less known *because* large companies won't port them? Devlopers make games, distributors decide which games they want to sell. They actually decide for you. you'd be surprised to know the quantity of great games that you mostly never know about here because no major gaming company wants to distribute them. They prefer easy money. There are companies out there with great developers that unfortunately don't have the cash to distribute their own games.

There is NO way they'd make their money back. That's an unfortunate side-effect of Mac gaming... they can only port the AAA games if they want to make any money at it.

Which game is an "AAA" game is a matter of opinion and unfortunately it's the big companies' opinion that only seems to matter.

And, FPS games aren't the only games being ported to the Mac. Recently, the only games which seem to be getting ported are Sims and Tycoon games... which, to me, is a really really bad sign for Mac gaming.

I don't play those either. Reality games? I have enough reality in my everyday life.

[LeChuck]

Originally Posted by SuvsareRetarded

Try this. Seriously.

http://www.ambrosiasw.com/games/gooball/

I've seen Gooball but haven't tried it yet. Will have to when I get a chance.

I'm not so much bitching about FPS, than the fact that I wish they would diversify a bit what they release, so everyone can have some fun. When is the last time there was a decent sport simulation or pool game on the Mac, or even a *real* role playing game, especially one that is not released 2 years after the PC version...

I know it's a small market. That's too bad. I have also a PC behind me as I'm typing this, but I like to have a tool that allows me to do everything I need to do and can't afford to keep up several types of environments for different purposes.

[LeChuck]

Speaking of gamepads, anybody has a recommendation for something inexpensive that has all the right buttons and works well on a Mac? On a PC I'd probably get a PS2 pad with an adapter but I don't know if that would work on the Mac.

[new newton]

Gaming on the Mac isn't dead, but it will be in a year. Why? Because dual-boot will kill it. Who is going to wait for a Mac port to come out, when they can just buy a copy of Windows and get a game when it is first released? No more being incompatible because of patches, waiting for patches that never show up... none of that.

Apple obviously feels secure enough in its OS that it doesn't think dual boot will kill off Macintosh development of most apps. Gaming is almost guaranteed to die off, however. The costs of producing a game are incredibly high, and ports are never ideal. Most people who buy games will buy a copy of Windows, so the market for what few Mac ports are done will just disappear.

[LeChuck]

I agree. People would be using VPC to play PC games now if it was fast enough for that. When, and if, they can dual boot to Windows...I guess you can have the best of both worlds. As long as it works well for the end user, why not.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by new newton

Gaming on the Mac isn't dead, but it will be in a year. Why? Because dual-boot will kill it. Who is going to wait for a Mac port to come out, when they can just buy a copy of Windows and get a game when it is first released?

I won't...UH OH!

Sooo, people will buy a Mac...but will buy Windows too. Here's the reality, my friend, only a small amount of people will buy Windows for their Macintel.

[new newton]

Well, my friend, you'll be missing out on an awful lot of games.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by new newton

Well, my friend, you'll be missing out on an awful lot of games.

Newsflash...we already are.

[new newton]

This has certainly devolved. Did you mean to add something worthwhile?

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by new newton

This has certainly devolved. Did you mean to add something worthwhile?

Not less than you.

Fact: We don't know how easy it will be to install Windows on the Macintel...

...so you and others can continue to speculate on how you'll be playing the latest and greatest games on your Windows partition.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by new newton

This has certainly devolved. Did you mean to add something worthwhile?

Not less than you.

Fact: We don't know how easy it will be to install Windows on the Macintel...

...so you and others can continue to speculate on how you'll be playing the latest and greatest games on your Windows partition.

If you can apply the 'gaming is dead' reasoning to games, you can apply it to apps too. So are you saying the Mac platform is dead? Afterall, why would any sane developer want to port his apps to the Mac if users can just boot up in Windows. Why, I'd go buy the latest Office for Windows and not wait for the Mac version.

[new newton]

This isn't complicated thinking. Back when OS X was in its infancy, Red Box was scrapped because of the danger it posed to continuing native application development. Apple has stated that it won't do anything to prevent a person from running Windows, so I'm willing to say that it won't be all that difficult to do. They've already got the dual-boot code established and in use. But you know that, right? Because you take the time to read up on things before forming an opinion, right? Uh huh.

Apple is plainly banking on the good will and positive momentum its generated with OS X. They're making the reasonable assumption that someone won't pay a premium for a Mac just to use it solely as a Windows machine.

What you don't seem to understand is that most applications aren't straight ports, as games are. Games are a rather unique beast within the software world. Most of them have minimal interaction with the OS, and a good number of them hide the OS as best they can. Most apps aren't like that. If a user can't distinguish what platform they're using, does the platform matter? Not likely. When spend vast sums and time to port a game, when you'll sell almost as many copies if you don't port it? It's economics and behavior.

As for what we've respectively added to this discussion... well, people can figure that out. It's not that tough.

[westrock]

Cheer up guys, soon Electronic Arts will own the rights to "video games" and they will make all video games. We will be blessed, and you will see the greatness of EA.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by new newton

This isn't complicated thinking. Back when OS X was in its infancy, Red Box was scrapped because of the danger it posed to continuing native application development.

I figured it was scrapped because having an outdated x86 Windows compatibility layer was fairly pointless on a modern PowerPC Mac.

[goMac]

Red Box only ran on Intel, which was probably why it was scrapped.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by new newton

This isn't complicated thinking. Back when OS X was in its infancy, Red Box was scrapped because of the danger it posed to continuing native application development. Apple has stated that it won't do anything to prevent a person from running Windows, so I'm willing to say that it won't be all that difficult to do. They've already got the dual-boot code established and in use. But you know that, right? Because you take the time to read up on things before forming an opinion, right? Uh huh.

Do you know this because you're a developer with an x86 box or are you assuming that the recent 'patent' = dual-boot code.

Also, if Apple uses EFI instead of BIOS (count on it), you're going to have a very difficult time installing Windows XP on your Macintel.

Apple is plainly banking on the good will and positive momentum its generated with OS X. They're making the reasonable assumption that someone won't pay a premium for a Mac just to use it solely as a Windows machine.

What you don't seem to understand is that most applications aren't straight ports, as games are.

Uh...I can name a number of games that aren't "straight ports" and a number of apps that *are*. Please, cut this **** out, it's not even funny...the "I won't wait for game x" logic applies to any software.

Games are a rather unique beast within the software world. Most of them have minimal interaction with the OS, and a good number of them hide the OS as best they can. Most apps aren't like that. If a user can't distinguish what platform they're using, does the platform matter? Not likely.

There are a lot of people that can't distinguish between Windows and OS X. It's hard to believe but it's true.

When spend vast sums and time to port a game, when you'll sell almost as many copies if you don't port it? It's economics and behavior.

No it's not...and no they won't. Unless Apple bundles Windows with every Macintel they ship, Windows will only be installed on a fraction of computers (not to mention it will be unsupported)...developers aren't going to play heads or tails to figure out if a Mac customer will give in and buy Windows to play his games or not.

As for what we've respectively added to this discussion... well, people can figure that out. It's not that tough.

It sure isn't.

[blizzard]

Hasn't Apple publicly stated that they wouldn't do anything to prevent someone from installing Windows on their Macintosh?

In any case, just to weigh in, if it came to a six month wait for a game to be ported to OS X, when the port (as ports usually do) runs slower than the Windows version, I wouldn't think twice about installing Windows (I already have a copy on my slow PC) on my Mac and buying the Windows version. I'm not a slave to the OS, I just buy whatever works best.

Oh, and stop the personal attacks please! This is an interesting discussion and I'd hate for it to get so off track.

[SpaceMonkey]

Considering that buying a new copy of Windows (let's ignore piracy for now) isn't exactly an inexpensive, throw-away purchase for many people, I think that the only people that are going to be buying it for their Intel Macs are the "die-hard" gamers, the sort of people who today already have a dedicated Windows gaming PC. I don't think the loss of those sorts of people is going to affect Mac gaming much, because they aren't buying many Mac games in the first place. Mac gaming will survive.

[new newton]

Poo, you might want to do some reading on what's been done with the x86 version of 10.4. Dual boot is an integral part of it at this time. But hey, it never helps to have some knowledge of what you're talking about when it's inconvenient to your argument, right?

[SuvsareRetarded]

Originally Posted by LeChuck

Speaking of gamepads, anybody has a recommendation for something inexpensive that has all the right buttons and works well on a Mac? On a PC I'd probably get a PS2 pad with an adapter but I don't know if that would work on the Mac.

Macally iShock. Version 1. It's like a PS2 controller. It's built well and works well.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

Do you know this because you're a developer with an x86 box or are you assuming that the recent 'patent' = dual-boot code.

I can verify dual boot code exists and Windows shows up in Startup Disks. This is not part of OS X however, this was coded as part of Darwin.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by goMac

I can verify dual boot code exists and Windows shows up in Startup Disks. This is not part of OS X however, this was coded as part of Darwin.

Right and how does one go back to OS X once in Windows. The average user will have to learn the secret key-combos or they might be stuck in Windows forever.

Assuming Macintels ship with BIOS...assuming average joes will know all the startup key-combos...assuming they can even install Windows...then yeah, Mac gaming is dead...as well as Mac itself since they'll play their favorite games in Windows, then they won't feel like booting back into OS X so they'll use IE and Word for Windows. :o

[new newton]

You don't give people enough credit, Poo. You should. After all, you learned to post, and have been doing it for two years. Anything is possible, eh?

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by new newton

You don't give people enough credit, Poo. You should. After all, you learned to post, and have been doing it for two years. Anything is possible, eh?

You haven't ever worked in retail or at a call center eh?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

Right and how does one go back to OS X once in Windows. The average user will have to learn the secret key-combos or they might be stuck in Windows forever.

Well, they reboot and Darwin asks them if they want to return to OS X...

[Horsepoo!!!]

I may go to hell for suggesting this but...if you know a Mac game is coming, why not pirate the PC version and buy the Mac version when it comes out (provided the PC version wasn't using MS APIs that make Mac and Linux user's life miserable.) You'd be doing something illegal, but you'd also be supporting the Mac and the Mac port houses.

[eyevaan]

Originally Posted by LeChuck

Speaking of gamepads, anybody has a recommendation for something inexpensive that has all the right buttons and works well on a Mac? On a PC I'd probably get a PS2 pad with an adapter but I don't know if that would work on the Mac.

just picked up the Belkin Nostromo N52 . . . it is pretty amazing - fully customizable left-hand base station while the right hand blasts everything to bits - saves the keyboard from an untimely death BUT if you want pure plug-n-play I have to agree with the Macally iShock.

[BlueStorm]

One of the big problems with Mac development, is that on the PC side they're now using tons of MIddleware products (Such as the Havoc physics engine) that are very expensive to license, or impossible since there is no Mac version. That's on top of the fact that, that Mac Gaming industry is hit more than the PC industry by piracy.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by BlueStorm

That's on top of the fact that, that Mac Gaming industry is hit more than the PC industry by piracy.

If it's a fact, I'm sure you can find us links so we can all believe that game piracy on Mac is more common than piracy on PCs.

[a2daj]

It's not a matter of being more common. Since the number of Mac owners is smaller, each pirated game is a bigger percentage.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by a2daj

It's not a matter of being more common. Since the number of Mac owners is smaller, each pirated game is a bigger percentage.

Sure but if 50 out of 100 Mac users pirate games, and 5000 out of 10000 PC users pirate their games, it's still a 50% rate. If we start pretending like the numbers are 50/100 and 50/10000, then, yeah, percentage-wise there's more piracy going on amongst the Mac community. But is that the reality?

Without numbers, though, it's impossible to know that Mac users are bigger, badder, meaner pirates than PC users.

50% is 50% is 50%. We'll talk if someone finds a link that shows 60% piracy on Mac and 40% on PC.

I personally find it hard to believe piracy on the Mac is more common than piracy on the PC given the sheer amount of easily findable PC software and games on the internet. I'm sure Mac software is pretty ****in' hard to find and given the nature of torrents, I'm sure most torrents are dead after a day 3 of it's release once everyone has stopped seeding it.

So...again...numbers plz...k...thx.

[a2daj]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

If we start pretending like the numbers are 50/100 and 50/10000, then, yeah, percentage-wise there's more piracy going on amongst the Mac community. But is that the reality?

It's closer to reality then you seem to imply. Just look at the market share and do some math. It's not that hard to figure out.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by a2daj

It's closer to reality then you seem to imply. Just look at the market share and do some math. It's not that hard to figure out.

Give me the numbers and I'll do the math. If you're unwilling to do so, then I don't think we can discuss this any further.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by a2daj

It's not a matter of being more common. Since the number of Mac owners is smaller, each pirated game is a bigger percentage.

That's only relevant if we assume the numbers are not proportionate, which is not in evidence.

[a2daj]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

Give me the numbers and I'll do the math. If you're unwilling to do so, then I don't think we can discuss this any further.

I misread your post. You're right. We can't prove that Mac users pirate more than PC users. My bad. But it's still a fact that each pirated game is a big chunk of the pie though. Macs have a smaller market share. A "hit" game on a Mac might only sell 50,000 copies (often times a lot less). I think Myst, the Sims, and Marathon may be some of the few Mac games to sell 250,000+. No idea how much Halo sold. A "hit" game on the PCs might sell 500,000 or 1,000,000. Each pirated copy is a bigger percentage. All I'm saying is each pirated Mac copy is a bigger chunk of the Mac market since the pieces are bigger.

[new newton]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand why Mac porting companies are hit a bit harder. They have a substantially smaller number of sales. It's not about percentages so much as it is about the size of the pie. They sell far fewer copies, so each lost sale is proportionately more damaging.

[edddeduck]

Yes, piracy is a big issue in Mac games and if it was lower people would get more Mac games. I know some people might think as I work for a games company I am biased, but if we could guarantee larger sales of big titles we could port more and bigger games.

My big gripe before I joined Feral and after was that the most vocal people complaining about the lack of games where normally the ones who also pirated the most games. You would be surprised how many MacNN and InsideMacGames forum users you also see on game piracy sites/forums.

As mentioned by new_newton if you have a smaller market the overall margins are smaller and hence the same percentage of piracy effects Mac games publishers more than PC ones.

Horsepoo! asking for numbers on piracy is like asking now long a piece of string is.... suffice to say that Mac piracy is large, torrents don't just die after three days.

For example earlier this year on just one day on one site I saw 186 People downloading Commandos via torrent and another 70 seeding. The same figures can be repeated for most new releases for most games over all of the publishers not just games. I don't want to go into any more detail but suffice to say piracy is a major factor that we have to spend time and money on that could be better spent on porting more games.

[edddeduck]

Internet Lag = Double Post

[rhombus]

Originally Posted by edddeduck

For example earlier this year on just one day on one site I saw 186 People downloading Commandos via torrent and another 70 seeding. The same figures can be repeated for most new releases for most games over all of the publishers not just games. I don't want to go into any more detail but suffice to say piracy is a major factor that we have to spend time and money on that could be better spent on porting more games.

It must be depressing to see games your company's worked hard being pirated in such high numbers just on one day. Have you tried exploring some kind of copy protection? I'm sure you're away that SI Games use Safedisc, although I'm not sure how effective it is.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by edddeduck

Yes, piracy is a big issue in Mac games and if it was lower people would get more Mac games. I know some people might think as I work for a games company I am biased, but if we could guarantee larger sales of big titles we could port more and bigger games.

My big gripe before I joined Feral and after was that the most vocal people complaining about the lack of games where normally the ones who also pirated the most games. You would be surprised how many MacNN and InsideMacGames forum users you also see on game piracy sites/forums.

As mentioned by new_newton if you have a smaller market the overall margins are smaller and hence the same percentage of piracy effects Mac games publishers more than PC ones.

Horsepoo! asking for numbers on piracy is like asking now long a piece of string is.... suffice to say that Mac piracy is large, torrents don't just die after three days.

For example earlier this year on just one day on one site I saw 186 People downloading Commandos via torrent and another 70 seeding. The same figures can be repeated for most new releases for most games over all of the publishers not just games. I don't want to go into any more detail but suffice to say piracy is a major factor that we have to spend time and money on that could be better spent on porting more games.

Well I don't doubt that a lot of MacNN and IMG members pirate a lot of games...they're the ones that are interested enough in knowing exactly which games are coming out, when they are coming out, and they're the ones with enough knowledge to find torrents and use BitTorrent clients.

I understand that percentage wise, one Mac pirate = many PC pirate...and the effect of a single Mac pirate will make a bigger impact on lost revenues for a Mac game developer/porter...but it's really hard to believe that, percentage-wise, piracy on Macs is higher than piracy on PCs.

Like I said, the sheer number of PC files on the internet makes PC games much easier for a casual pirate to find. And once they found it, the sheer number of PC users that can seed the file allows it to stay live for a much longer time than a Mac file. I'd be very surprised if the day you looked at the number of Commandos download and seeds wasn't one of the first 3-7 days after release.

Trying to find Mac software torrents on the internet is like trying to find a needle in a haystack...at least to a casual pirate, I'm sure.

But I don't doubt that there's a lot of pirating on the Mac side...if I had to explain why there might be a lot of pirating I'd have to say it's because some people feel like they've been robbed (or something to that effect) when they try the Mac game 6 months after their PC friends got to play it and it performs like a dog.

I'm sure there are a lot of people that feel this way and I think it's pretty sad that they resort to pirating.

The move to Intel shouldn't worsen the situation. Those that don't feel like they've been robbed (average people that couldn't care less about game performance and don't feel bitter about the time it took for the game to be ported because they have no idea when the game was released) will continue to buy Mac games (so revenues shouldn't go down)...those that do feel robbed will buy Windows and the PC games (pirate would probably be more accurate)...hopefully the Macintels will be faster than the current breed of Macs and the ones that 'bought' the Windows version will buy the Mac version.

The move to Intel would, at worse, do nothing to Mac game sales and at best increase it a lot.

[Horsepoo!!!]

...double post brought to you by the MacNN servers

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by edddeduck

Yes, piracy is a big issue in Mac games and if it was lower people would get more Mac games. I know some people might think as I work for a games company I am biased, but if we could guarantee larger sales of big titles we could port more and bigger games.

My big gripe before I joined Feral and after was that the most vocal people complaining about the lack of games where normally the ones who also pirated the most games. You would be surprised how many MacNN and InsideMacGames forum users you also see on game piracy sites/forums.

As mentioned by new_newton if you have a smaller market the overall margins are smaller and hence the same percentage of piracy effects Mac games publishers more than PC ones.

Horsepoo! asking for numbers on piracy is like asking now long a piece of string is.... suffice to say that Mac piracy is large, torrents don't just die after three days.

For example earlier this year on just one day on one site I saw 186 People downloading Commandos via torrent and another 70 seeding. The same figures can be repeated for most new releases for most games over all of the publishers not just games. I don't want to go into any more detail but suffice to say piracy is a major factor that we have to spend time and money on that could be better spent on porting more games.

Well I don't doubt that a lot of MacNN and IMG members pirate a lot of games...they're the ones that are interested enough in knowing exactly which games are coming out, when they are coming out, and they're the ones with enough knowledge to find torrents and use BitTorrent clients.

I understand that percentage wise, one Mac pirate = many PC pirate...and the effect of a single Mac pirate will make a bigger impact on lost revenues for a Mac game developer/porter...but it's really hard to believe that, percentage-wise, piracy on Macs is higher than piracy on PCs.

Like I said, the sheer number of PC files on the internet makes PC games much easier for a casual pirate to find. And once they found it, the sheer number of PC users that can seed the file allows it to stay live for a much longer time than a Mac file. I'd be very surprised if the day you looked at the number of Commandos download and seeds wasn't one of the first 3-7 days after release.

Trying to find Mac software torrents on the internet is like trying to find a needle in a haystack...at least to a casual pirate, I'm sure.

But I don't doubt that there's a lot of pirating on the Mac side...if I had to explain why there might be a lot of pirating I'd have to say it's because some people feel like they've been robbed (or something to that effect) when they try the Mac game 6 months after their PC friends got to play it and it performs like a dog.

I'm sure there are a lot of people that feel this way and I think it's pretty sad that they resort to pirating.

The move to Intel shouldn't worsen the situation. Those that don't feel like they've been robbed (average people that couldn't care less about game performance and don't feel bitter about the time it took for the game to be ported because they have no idea when the game was released) will continue to buy Mac games (so revenues shouldn't go down)...those that do feel robbed will buy Windows and the PC games (pirate would probably be more accurate)...hopefully the Macintels will be faster than the current breed of Macs and the ones that 'bought' the Windows version will buy the Mac version.

The move to Intel would, at worse, do nothing to Mac game sales and at best increase it a lot.

[joe]

Originally Posted by edddeduck

Yes, piracy is a big issue in Mac games and if it was lower people would get more Mac games. I know some people might think as I work for a games company I am biased, but if we could guarantee larger sales of big titles we could port more and bigger games.

I agree with a previous poster's suggestion about improving copy protection. Most of the current copy protection is a PITFA to legit consumers and does nothing to deter theft. In some cases it will drive people to find pirated or no-CD versions even if they already bought the game. Maybe some sort of online check when you run the game would help - with a grace period for owners whose games have previously cleared (ie in case the copy protection server is down, etc).

Also, another suggestion would be to release more playable demos that show how well/poorly the game plays on your Mac - or just the gameplay in general. Some (tho admittedly not all) people "pirate" the game before they fork out the $50 just to see if it's playable. Then ditch it if it sux or run out and buy it if it rulz. I have to admit to doing this before purchasing DiabloII and LoD. But I haven't done so since due to all the controversy.

Originally Posted by edddeduck

My big gripe before I joined Feral and after was that the most vocal people complaining about the lack of games where normally the ones who also pirated the most games.

Mac Gamers complain often because there really are a lack of major (and hugely popular) titles on Mac. To associate the most vocal complainers with pirates sounds like a cheap way of silencing critics instead of pirates. Futhermore, not all the Mac owners downloading those torrents are doing so with the express purpose of ripping off the industry. Yes, I know a large percentage of them are. But the gaming industry has yet to universally address the points I raised above regarding copy protection and demos. It's easy to brush aside the consumer POV as being impractical or unimportant compared to the bottom line. But over time, this tends to alienate consumers and encourage more piracy. I don't see this situation improving other than from the industry side. Whether their actions will be heavy handed or consumer oriented, it's going to have a direct affect in the increase or decrease in piracy (IMHO).

[HiDDeN]

It's been a really long time since I came on this board.
Macintel? Dual booting? Mac gaming getting killed?
Sh*t, why don't I just kick my mac out and get me a PC, then atleast I can get an AMD 64 instead of some lame intel.
Take a look and wake up people, mac gaming isn't the only thing getting killed. The entire mac is getting killed.

[rhombus]

Originally Posted by HiDDeN

It's been a really long time since I came on this board.
Macintel? Dual booting? Mac gaming getting killed?
Sh*t, why don't I just kick my mac out and get me a PC, then atleast I can get an AMD 64 instead of some lame intel.
Take a look and wake up people, mac gaming isn't the only thing getting killed. The entire mac is getting killed.

The entire Mac is getting killed with intel? How much longer do you think Apple can last with the G4 processor stuck at 1.67 Ghz in its laptops? The G5s aren't making much progress either-where is the 3Ghz G5 IBM promised to deliver to Apple for 2004? It's the current processors that are killing sales. The Intel transition is for the future, not the present, which is probably why AMD wasn't chosen-apparently Intel have the better roadmap.

[HiDDeN]

Originally Posted by rhombus

The entire Mac is getting killed with intel? How much longer do you think Apple can last with the G4 processor stuck at 1.67 Ghz in its laptops? The G5s aren't making much progress either-where is the 3Ghz G5 IBM promised to deliver to Apple for 2004? It's the current processors that are killing sales. The Intel transition is for the future, not the present, which is probably why AMD wasn't chosen-apparently Intel have the better roadmap.

And your point is? Why should I pay plenty of money for a new mac then, while I could have a top of the line PC for a bit more money then an iMac? If you talk about dual booting, it can't be to hard to install OS X on a PC then can it? Or are prices for macs going to drop to the same level as PC's? I don't really see that happening. Thats really my opinion.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by HiDDeN

If you talk about dual booting, it can't be to hard to install OS X on a PC then can it?

It's actually surprisingly hard...and chances are, you'd be running some unsupported hardware...if you fry some of your hardware using OS X on your PC and you call Apple to complain, they'll likely laugh at you and hang up.

[HiDDeN]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

It's actually surprisingly hard...and chances are, you'd be running some unsupported hardware...if you fry some of your hardware using OS X on your PC and you call Apple to complain, they'll likely laugh at you and hang up.

Ow, how stupid of me. So I'm going to fry my unsupported PC hardware using OS X, but all you dual booting types don't think that could happen to your Macintels using Windows? Maybe the guys at M$ wil laugh with some of you frying your fancy macintels?