[abe]

Boeing to Debut First 787 Dreamliner
By ELIZABETH M. GILLESPIE 07.08.07, 2:43 PM ET

Executives with the first airline that will fly Boeing Co.'s new 787 concede that the aircraft maker faces production challenges, but they're doing what they can to make sure they get their plane on time next May.

"We know it's not easy to make that deadline. However, we will support Boeing (nyse: BA - news - people ), and we will work with them so that the deadline can be met," Osamu Shinobe, executive vice president of corporate planning for All Nippon Airways Co. (other-otc: ALNPY.PK - news - people ), said Sunday at a downtown hotel, hours before Boeing was to unveil the first of its 787 Dreamliners at the company's widebody assembly plant in Everett.

Airlines, leasing companies and other plane buyers have ordered more than 600 Dreamliners over the last few years, eager to hold Boeing to its promise that the midsize, long-haul jet will burn less fuel, be cheaper to maintain and offer more passenger comforts than comparable planes flying today.

The 787, Boeing's first all-new jet since airlines started flying the 777 in 1995, will be the world's first large commercial airplane made mostly of carbon-fiber composites, which are lighter, more durable and less prone to corrosion than aluminum.

Final assembly of first 787 started in late May, after a gigantic, specially outfitted superfreighter started flying wings, fuselage sections and other major parts to Boeing's widebody plant, where they essentially get snapped together piece by huge piece.

Once production hits full speed, the company expects each plane to spend just three days in final assembly, but this time, Boeing workers spent several weeks installing electrical wiring and other innards that suppliers will eventually stuff into their sections of the plane before they're delivered to the assembly plant.

Boeing decided to handle that work in-house for the first few planes rather than risk any production delays.

To date, Boeing has won 677 orders for the 787, selling out delivery positions through 2015, two years after rival Airbus SAS expects to roll out its competing A350 XWB.

List prices for the 787 begin at $146 million, although customers typically negotiate discounts.

Boeing to Debut First 787 Dreamliner - Forbes.com

It's a great day for aviation!

News1130 - ALL NEWS RADIO - Boeing unveils 787 Dreamliner, offering more comfort to passengers
Boeing: Multimedia - Image Gallery - 787 Dreamliner

[mduell]

To? Did, about an hour ago.

And then they let everyone rush it... so they could touch the gear and nacelles? It seemed kinda silly.

[goMac]

Yay for more cramped airline seating.

[abe]

Originally Posted by mduell 

To? Did, about an hour ago.

And then they let everyone rush it... so they could touch the gear and nacelles? It seemed kinda silly.

Why?

By the way the 787 debuted on 7/08/07!

[rickey939]

Very cool.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Yay for more cramped airline seating.

Airlines are more than welcome to put 8 across in economy. But about 65% have said they'll do 9 across.

[abe]

Originally Posted by rickey939 

Very cool.

I wonder if there's any truth to the rumor that the Boeing 939 will debut on September 3, 2009?

Or maybe that would be the debut of rickey939's next little heart stealer.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by abe 

Why?

By the way the 787 debuted on 7/08/07!

Don't be silly, it debuted on 8/7/07.

V

[badidea]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Don't be silly, it debuted on 8/7/07.

V

No no, it debuted on 8.7.2007!

I am a little bit disappointed by the pictures I saw on TV today! I expected something looking very modern (by all those computer pictures that have been available so far) but it looks just as boring as every other airplane out there - well, maybe that's just how airplanes look like! (the A350 won't be any different)

[PacHead]

Check out how a eurohead (with an airbus avatar nonetheless) is "disappointed" in the new Boeing airliner. I am shocked. Actually, I'd bet that this plane will be a much bigger success than the airbus fiascoliner.

[highstakes]

Wow...its sold out until 2015 :O

[Dakarʒ]

Man, some of you take planes way too seriously.

[abe]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Don't be silly, it debuted on 8/7/07.

V

Hey voodoo!

[abe]

Originally Posted by PacHead 

Check out how a eurohead (with an airbus avatar nonetheless) is "disappointed" in the new Boeing airliner. I am shocked. Actually, I'd bet that this plane will be a much bigger success than the airbus fiascoliner.

Hey PacHead!

I think it already has $900 Billion Million Trillion in advance orders.

[abe]

Originally Posted by highstakes 

Wow...its sold out until 2015 :O

Beat me to it!

[abe]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

Man, some of you take planes way too seriously.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by abe 

I think it already has $900 Billion Million Trillion in advance orders.

AFAIK roughly $100 billion actually, not too bad for a plane that hasn't actually flown yet

[DigitalEl]

I expected something looking very modern (by all those computer pictures that have been available so far) but it looks just as boring as every other airplane out there - well, maybe that's just how airplanes look

All the early drawings had the shark-fin tail and the funky nose and some really crazy wingtips, but Boeing found those things flew better on paper than in the wind tunnel... Hence the more traditional shapes on the actual Dreamliner.

Seems planes are shaped that way for a reason. There's really not much more you can do, outside of lighter/stronger materials and powerplant.

BTW, since even Airbus congratulated Boeing on yesterday's roll-out, can we cut the jingoistic BS in this thread and just celebrate the accomplishment, eh!?

[Troll]

Looks like a very nice plane. I like the big windows. I do wonder a bit about using plastic and carbon fibre in the body. Coming from a windsurfing background, I have a bit of experience with highly stressed carbon fibre bits and it's really difficult to tell if they need replacing. They don't dent or bend or change colour to let you know, they just snap. I just hope the safety guys know what to look for.

That said, can't wait to fly in one of these.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by abe 

Hey voodoo!

Hey aberdeen!!!

V

[glideslope]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

Man, some of you take planes way too seriously.

Yes, it's genetic. Akin to riding motorcycles. A sense of freedom, (unless your a pax), solitude, just you and the machine.

Hard to describe in words, but easy to remember.

[glideslope]

Originally Posted by badidea 

No no, it debuted on 8.7.2007!

I am a little bit disappointed by the pictures I saw on TV today! I expected something looking very modern (by all those computer pictures that have been available so far) but it looks just as boring as every other airplane out there - well, maybe that's just how airplanes look like! (the A350 won't be any different)

Disagree. The nose is very reminiscent of the Comet. Very aggressive. The engines mount almost in front of the LE. The wing has an interesting airfoil, IMO from the first views, and a very large amount of sweep. A typical Hyper Critical Boeing design no question, big power to climb out, high mach, low fuel burn cruise. But very different from the 777 wing. Let's not forget this is a 783. The 788 and 789 will not have the stubby 767 look.

Personally, seeing those gorgeous Trents hanging gave me goose bumps.

[glideslope]

Originally Posted by Troll 

Looks like a very nice plane. I like the big windows. I do wonder a bit about using plastic and carbon fiber in the body. Coming from a windsurfing background, I have a bit of experience with highly stressed carbon fibre bits and it's really difficult to tell if they need replacing. They don't dent or bend or change colour to let you know, they just snap. I just hope the safety guys know what to look for.

That said, can't wait to fly in one of these.

The large amount of flexing allowed was one of the main reasons for going with the CF wing along with the fuse. This is a much different Polymer Compound than a typical Surfboard. The large wing flex is a Boeing trademark almost, starting with the 777. Very efficient at cruise, but requiring more power on climb-out, as opposed to say a 380 wing designed for high lift at lower thrust on climb out.

[OreoCookie]

Since carbon fibers have been used in the industry for years, I'm sure this won't be a problem. You are right that carbon fibers won't give you any warning before they break (a reason why I will never have carbon parts on my mountain bike), but since many components of planes are made of composites now, I wouldn't worry about it. If there were any problems because of that, you can be sure, Boeing (or Airbus) would fix that rather quickly.

I'll be interested to hear how well this thing flies.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by glideslope 

Let's not forget this is a 783. The 788 and 789 will not have the stubby 767 look.

This is a 788. The 783 will come in a year or so and be the same length fuselage with a different wingtip. The 789 will come in 2 years or so with a longer fuselage.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by abe 

Why?

By the way the 787 debuted on 7/08/07!

Sorry it debuted on the 8/7/07

Edit: Beaten to it.

[Hawkeye_a]

Very cool stuff.... i never thought about it, but bigger windows in an aircraft would be awesome for passangers !!

I watched a couple of videos showing the interior of this thing, and it looks pretty spatious. That being said, i didnt see any storage for meals or lavatories in the mock up.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by glideslope 

The large wing flex is a Boeing trademark almost, starting with the 777. Very efficient at cruise, but requiring more power on climb-out, as opposed to say a 380 wing designed for high lift at lower thrust on climb out.

Very almost. I don't think Boeing wings flex any more than other wings. Have you seen an A380 flying? The wing flex is massive on climb-out. The difference with the 787 is that the BODY is a carbon/plastic composite. Airbus pioneered the use of composites in the wings but Boeing is the first to build the fuselage out of plastic composite. The problem with this compound, as I said, is that it doesn't warn you of a problem. Your standard pilot's inspection of the body isn't going to reveal dent or popped rivets in the skin. I'm not saying that I don't trust the technology, I'm just saying that I hope that with the introduction of this aircraft, they teach pilots and ground staff how to properly inspect these planes after a flight to make sure they're safe. Doing that on this plane will take different skills to a metal bodied plane.

After a couple of exploded carbon masts, I learned to keep my rigs in the shade or under a space blanket when I wasn't on the water. I learned that what might appear to be a superficial scratch on a carbon fin could severely weaken the structure and to therefore store them in sleeves etc. I learned that you could get back home with a bent aluminium wishbone but a carbon wishbone would simply snap and leave you stranded. There's a learning curve for dealing with the new materials.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by glideslope 

Yes, it's genetic. Akin to riding motorcycles. A sense of freedom, (unless your a pax), solitude, just you and the machine.

Hard to describe in words, but easy to remember.

Way, way, way more cool than any motorcycles.

V

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by glideslope 

Let's not forget this is a 783. The 788 and 789 will not have the stubby 767 look.

Now, now glidey.. the 783 and 788 have the same dimensions.

V

[glideslope]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Way, way, way more cool than any motorcycles.

V

Yes I agree. I was simply trying to create mental imagery in terms of you, the machine, and the environment.

[glideslope]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Now, now glidey.. the 783 and 788 have the same dimensions.

V

Yes, by bad. I meant 789, and 787-10 if it happens. More likely a new Y3 will compete with the 350 as Boeing will have such a long time to get ready.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by glideslope 

Yes, by bad. I meant 789, and 787-10 if it happens. More likely a new Y3 will compete with the 350 as Boeing will have such a long time to get ready.

AFAIK Boeing's Y3 will compete mainly against the A380 (as well as the largest version of the A350) as it is a replacement for both, the 748 and the 773. I'd rather expect this to be Boeing's flavor of the A380, i. e. a two-deck plane (since Boeing wants to cover the market up to (at least) 600 passengers). This way airports could use existing infrastructure for the A380 for the Y3.

Does anyone know when Y3 is due?

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Does anyone know when Y3 is due?

Post 2020 AD, but I don't expect it ever to be made. There is no particular need for what would have been the Y3. Boeing will re-adjust its plans to meet the real market, rather than what was imagined back when the Ys were defined.

V

[mduell]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

AFAIK Boeing's Y3 will compete mainly against the A380 (as well as the largest version of the A350) as it is a replacement for both, the 748 and the 773. I'd rather expect this to be Boeing's flavor of the A380, i. e. a two-deck plane (since Boeing wants to cover the market up to (at least) 600 passengers). This way airports could use existing infrastructure for the A380 for the Y3.

Does anyone know when Y3 is due?

I doubt Y3 will go much larger than the 748 (or smaller than 77W), and it will do so on one deck. Neither Boeing nor many other analysts see room for two aircraft larger than the 747.

I'd guess Y3 will be out in 2020 give or take 2 years, unless there is a major shift in the market in the next 9 years.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by mduell 

I doubt Y3 will go much larger than the 748 (or smaller than 77W), and it will do so on one deck. Neither Boeing nor many other analysts see room for two aircraft larger than the 747.

I think Boeing will just wait and see how successful the A380 is. If the concept works, then I'm sure, they'll go for a two-deck design. Since I think a two-deck design makes sense in certain markets (which is something that remains to be seen), I'm pretty sure it'll be a two-deck design. Airbus was also pushed into redesigning the A350 by customers, I'm sure Boeing will just lie and wait and find out what they want.

In any case, the Y3 is `Zukunftsmusik', a lot can happen until 2020 and now … (I might try this plane with my family after flying with the A380 and B787 for the umpteenth time, hehe).

[mduell]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I think Boeing will just wait and see how successful the A380 is. If the concept works, then I'm sure, they'll go for a two-deck design. Since I think a two-deck design makes sense in certain markets (which is something that remains to be seen), I'm pretty sure it'll be a two-deck design. Airbus was also pushed into redesigning the A350 by customers, I'm sure Boeing will just lie and wait and find out what they want.

Aside from being really big and still fitting in the 80m box, or allowing nose-loading cargo, what's the advantage to a two-deck design?

[Troll]

Originally Posted by mduell 

Aside from being really big and still fitting in the 80m box, or allowing nose-loading cargo, what's the advantage to a two-deck design?

What are the advantages of a double-decker bus over a really long single deck bus? Same answer except that with a plane you have the advantage that structurally, it's easier to make a strong, short, fat tube than a strong, long, thin tube.

[abe]

What's the advantage of higher humidity being allowed in the cabins? Does a cool, dry, climate make one feel more fatigued than a cool/warm moist atmosphere?

SEATTLE, Dec. 13, 2005 -- The Boeing Company [NYSE: BA] and Qantas announced today that the airline has selected the Boeing 787 Dreamliner and plans to buy up to 115 787s for renewal and expansion of its long-haul fleet.

Boeing and Qantas are finalizing an agreement that will include orders for 45 Dreamliners, with 20 options plus purchase rights for an additional 50 airplanes. The announcement by Qantas is the largest to date for the Dreamliner in terms of the total package.

The first four 787-8s will be delivered to Qantas' Jetstar subsidiary in 2008, with plans for a total of 28 to be in operation with Qantas and Jetstar by December 2011. Qantas' and Jetstar's airplanes will be split between the 787-8 (up to 300 seats in Jetstar's low-cost configuration) and 787-9 (up to 350 seats).

"Today, we continue the program that is setting the airline's course of the future," said Geoff Dixon, CEO of Qantas Airways. "With our unique geographic challenges, we need all the advantages we can take to compete effectively against some of the industry's toughest. The 787 family will help us provide increased or new services by Qantas and Jetstar to 15 destinations and to destinations which we cannot currently profitably serve."

Qantas recently approved the establishment of a new long-haul, value-based airline under the Jetstar brand to commence international operations no later than January 2007. Jetstar's initial international route structure would require 10 aircraft on point-to-point routes between Australia and Asian and Pacific cities, complementing Qantas' mainline international operations.

Qantas has yet to announce an engine choice between the Rolls-Royce Trent 1000 and GE Aircraft Engines GEnx power plants.

"Our relationship with Qantas dates to the very start of the jet age, and we're thrilled to see that relationship continue with the 787," said Alan Mulally, president and CEO, Boeing Commercial Airplanes. "The 787 is a game-changer for airline profitability and for passenger comfort. Qantas' evaluation was particularly rigorous, and we welcome this endorsement and opportunity to be part of Qantas's future."

Boeing developed the 787 for the mid-sized jetliner market, estimated at 3,500 aircraft over the next 20 years. The 787 will be more than 50 percent advanced carbon composites which allow higher cabin humidity, a lower cabin altitude and the largest windows in the industry.

Two high-efficiency engines combined with a high-tech construction mean the 787 will produce seat-mile costs normally associated with much larger aircraft.

In addition to bringing big-jet ranges to mid-size airplanes, the 787 will provide airlines with unmatched fuel efficiency, resulting in exceptional environmental performance. The airplane will use 20 percent less fuel for comparable missions than any similarly-sized airplane. It will also travel at speeds similar to today's fastest wide bodies, Mach 0.85. Also, airlines will enjoy more cargo revenue capacity.

Boeing now has 354 orders and commitments from 26 customers for the 787.

Boeing: Qantas Chooses Boeing 787 Dreamliner

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by mduell 

Aside from being really big and still fitting in the 80m box, or allowing nose-loading cargo, what's the advantage to a two-deck design?

Non-technical answer: If you want to fit 600 people into a plane, then you can either make it very long or go for a two-deck solution. Since airports have spent quite a bit to make their infrastructure compatible with the A380 (a two-deck plane), they'll push Boeing to make a two-deck jet (and look at how customers pressured Airbus into scratching their earlier design of the A350, they can and will do that with Boeing, too). So if Boeing decides to make this plane, I'm sure it'll be one with two decks.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by abe 

What's the advantage of higher humidity being allowed in the cabins? Does a cool, dry, climate make one feel more fatigued than a cool/warm moist atmosphere?

Humans seem to be very subtle creatures. On the A380 (and I think the 787 can do that as well), you can tune the color temperature of the light. So depending on the `rhythm' (e. g. if you want your passengers to take a nap), you can tune the light and `fool' the body into thinking it's a different time of day.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by Troll 

What are the advantages of a double-decker bus over a really long single deck bus? Same answer except that with a plane you have the advantage that structurally, it's easier to make a strong, short, fat tube than a strong, long, thin tube.

For busses it's mostly about turning radius. 75m aircraft (ala A346) work just fine at major airports. Also a larger cross section (perhaps 10 or 11 across instead of 8) and stiffer materials (CFRP instead of Al) would reduce the bending issues the A346 design has.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Non-technical answer: If you want to fit 600 people into a plane, then you can either make it very long or go for a two-deck solution. Since airports have spent quite a bit to make their infrastructure compatible with the A380 (a two-deck plane), they'll push Boeing to make a two-deck jet (and look at how customers pressured Airbus into scratching their earlier design of the A350, they can and will do that with Boeing, too). So if Boeing decides to make this plane, I'm sure it'll be one with two decks.

The same airports work fine for a 75m A346. Take an A346, make it 10 across instead of 8, and you've got the same capacity as a B748.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by mduell 

The same airports work fine for a 75m A346. Take an A346, make it 10 across instead of 8, and you've got the same capacity as a B748.

According to the graph I've seen, the design should scale up until at least 600 passengers which is 150 more than what you can fit in the 748 and 240 more than what you can fit into an A346. I don't see how you can do this with a single-deck design as easily as you can do it with a two-deck design. Keep in mind that the fuselage just can't be pancaked.
Especially if the concept of the A380 is successful, they just won't have a choice.

[mduell]

300-600 was the range of possibilities for Y3 when the whole Yellowstone thing was announced, but Y3 won't cover that entire range. Boeing has made it pretty clear they don't see room in the market for two 550+ pax aircraft.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by mduell 

300-600 was the range of possibilities for Y3 when the whole Yellowstone thing was announced, but Y3 won't cover that entire range. Boeing has made it pretty clear they don't see room in the market for two 550+ pax aircraft.

That's marketing speech by Boeing to sell 787s. If they see that there is a market for such large aircraft and if they decide they don't want to leave it to Airbus alone, they will surely build such a large plane. Boeing will lie and wait for now and see how the A380 does: if customers want Boeing to build such a large plane, they will.

[- - e r i k - -]

Who knew there were so many plane-spotters on MacNN?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

Man, some of you take planes way too seriously.

I am glad I didn't see any white lines saying this was a joke.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by glideslope 

Yes, it's genetic. Akin to riding motorcycles. A sense of freedom, (unless your a pax), solitude, just you and the machine.

Hard to describe in words, but easy to remember.

You are talking about flying. He was talking about planes.

Most of the A30 shenanigans really had to do with "nationalism" than love of flying IMHO.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

You are talking about flying. He was talking about plains.

No, I was talking about flying. Kevin, you are fired as my spokesperson.

V

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

No, I was talking about flying. Kevin, you are fired as my spokesperson.

V

*Sigh* My comments weren't about anything YOU said. So I wasn't speaking for you at all.

Dakar said

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

Man, some of you take planes way too seriously.

Then glide responded

Originally Posted by glideslope 

Yes, it's genetic. Akin to riding motorcycles. A sense of freedom, (unless your a pax), solitude, just you and the machine.

Hard to describe in words, but easy to remember.

To which I replied

Originally Posted by Kevin 

You are talking about flying. He was talking about planes.

None of that, between the three of us had anything to do with you.