[Jim Paradise]

Originally posted by zachs:
It's the same hybrid Aqua/Metal as in 10.3...

Well that's a bloody annoyance. You'd think they could just implement an easy option of having either/or without the hassle of compromising features if you want to use the Aqua Finder.

[ixavi]

If you look in the "About the finder" option you can see it's still at 10.3 so we could expect some major changes by the time tiger ships.

What I'm impressed is about the stability of the beast even though it's an early beta.

[SS3 GokouX]

eh, double post... see below.

[SS3 GokouX]

Originally posted by ixavi:
If you look in the "About the finder" option you can see it's still at 10.3 so we could expect some major changes by the time tiger ships.

I think we can expect major changes throughout all of Tiger, seeing how we have 6-12 months left. Changing the 3 to a 4 is hopefully one of the smallest changes we will see.

[ryaxnb]

Originally posted by Busemann:
Doing this on QuickTime brings up the question mark cursor (finally!)

what's this all about anyway?

[Tyre MacAdmin]

Originally posted by Mr Scruff:
Am I the only one that's really fricking interested in this? Do you notice the text speedup anywhere else? Safari/word scrolling? I'm surprised it only appears to have affected text, I'd have thought it would have accelerated all 2D primitives.

No... you're not the only one. I wonder why it's not turned on by default... and how this guy enabled it....?

[zachs]

Originally posted by Jim Paradise:
Well that's a bloody annoyance. You'd think they could just implement an easy option of having either/or without the hassle of compromising features if you want to use the Aqua Finder.

I know. I wish someone would figure out a way to have the toolbar in the Aqua mode. Hopefully Apple will add that functionality by the time Tiger goes final.

[OptimusG4]

Originally posted by ryaxnb:
what's this all about anyway?

Means Quicktime is finally written in the Cocoa API.

[a holck]

Heard a from a close source that Icons can now be 256x256 in tiger (instead of 128x128) now that is huge...

[Moose]

Originally posted by OptimusG4:
Means Quicktime is finally written in the Cocoa API.

No.

It means the QuickTime Player application is written in Cocoa.

[a holck]

Originally posted by Moose:
No.

It means the QuickTime Player application is written in Cocoa.

Or that the Quicktime Player 'front end' is written using the Cocoa API.

[zachs]

Originally posted by a holck:
Heard a from a close source that Icons can now be 256x256 in tiger (instead of 128x128) now that is huge...

I can only make them 128 x 128 here. I know there is a way to increase that, but that's on any version of Mac OS X, not just Tiger.

[Moose]

Originally posted by a holck:
Or that the Quicktime Player 'front end' is written using the Cocoa API.

The QuickTime Player application is a "front end" for Quicktime. Would it make you feel better if I said /Applications/QuickTime\ Player.app/Contents/MacOS/QuickTime\ Player linked to the Cocoa library?

[bmedina]

Originally posted by Tyler McAdams:
No... you're not the only one. I wonder why it's not turned on by default... and how this guy enabled it....?

It's probably not on by default because they still have a lot of work to do. And it can be enabled in the Quartz Debug program.

[ul1984]

Originally posted by Mr Scruff:
Am I the only one that's really fricking interested in this? Do you notice the text speedup anywhere else? Safari/word scrolling? I'm surprised it only appears to have affected text, I'd have thought it would have accelerated all 2D primitives.

yes, scrolling is very improved in Safari as well, i think its roughtly as fast at reduced processor performance(around 760Mhz) with Quartz 2D Extreme enabled, as it it at highest (1.25Ghz) with it turned off.
To me this is amazing because i simply couldnt stand scrolling at reduced before, now i can finally run my powerbook at battery and still scroll smoothly

Originally posted by Tyler McAdams:
No... you're not the only one. I wonder why it's not turned on by default... and how this guy enabled it....?

Originally posted by bmedina:
It's probably not on by default because they still have a lot of work to do. And it can be enabled in the Quartz Debug program.

yeah, it still seems a bit experimental, sometimes images wont display immediately, you have to resize the window for example to make them show up, and some other similiar drawing problems in some apps, not too bad tho.

im very interested in learning more about this technology, but i cant find any information about this in the Dev Documentation.

[SYN]

This is what I'd like to know:

Is QT finally able to open files without extension or type info? The OS recognises the files correctly, as evidenced by the "open with" CMM, however QT Player in Panther can't open the files and throws an error. Adding the extension fixes this.

Trying this out is fairly easy, grab an .mpg from anywhere, most don't have creator/type codes, and rip the extension off.

[monkeybrain]

Originally posted by leperkuhn:
How about a "Move" and "Move to Here" contextual menu items?

I hate using spring folders because I dont' like holding the mouse down for long periods of time.

You might want to check out this: QuickAccessCM

I use it all the time, it's brilliant and may well also work with Tiger.

[Gavin]

Can automator do subroutines?

Can it control flow? Like if statements, loops etc?

Can you save a Workflow then make it an action in another Workflow?

Can you add your own actions?

Can it do math?

Can it? Can it?

[Wickedkitten]

Originally posted by Thorin:
I'd like Apple to provide built in support for palm devices too. But I don't understand what you mean by that next bit. Palm don't exist as a company anymore, and PalmOne have pledged to continue to support the mac. So no problem even if Apple don't buid in Palm support

there already is palm support for isync, theres a conduit for it anyways in my idisk software folder

[z|gzag]

What are you people waiting for???

Someone make a talking paperclip for dashboard!

[Wickedkitten]

There are also advanced prefs for the firewall

[ShotgunEd]

Originally posted by z|gzag:
What are you people waiting for???

Someone make a talking paperclip for dashboard!

Haha, I needed a laugh today, thanks.

[Wickedkitten]

automatic image correction in preview

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Wickedkitten:
there already is palm support for isync, theres a conduit for it anyways in my idisk software folder

I know about the isync conduit thanks - we were talking about full support for palm devices without the need for Palm Desktop.

[Stradlater]

Originally posted by Gavin:
Can automator do subroutines?

Can it control flow? Like if statements, loops etc?

Can you save a Workflow then make it an action in another Workflow?

Can you add your own actions?

Can it do math?

Can it? Can it?

I heard it can do your homework and cook you hash browns!

[SS3 GokouX]

Awesome. I love hash browns.

[MPMoriarty]

I have a simple question about TIGER and SpotLight.

One of the annoying things that I have always found in previous Mac OS X versions, I couldn't search for files that had certain information inside the "Comments" metadata field.

Does TIGER with SpotLight allow you to do this now?

I use the comment field a lot and this would really be great.

Mike

[bborofka]

Originally posted by ul1984:
yes, scrolling is very improved in Safari as well, i think its roughtly as fast at reduced processor performance(around 760Mhz) with Quartz 2D Extreme enabled, as it it at highest (1.25Ghz) with it turned off.
To me this is amazing because i simply couldnt stand scrolling at reduced before, now i can finally run my powerbook at battery and still scroll smoothly


yeah, it still seems a bit experimental, sometimes images wont display immediately, you have to resize the window for example to make them show up, and some other similiar drawing problems in some apps, not too bad tho.

im very interested in learning more about this technology, but i cant find any information about this in the Dev Documentation.

Wow, this sounds incredible. Is scrolling much improved in all apps? If this technology matures and brings us a snappy GUI once and for all, I would no longer be envious when I'm using XP.

[yaro]

ui1984,
Can you explain how you enabled the 2 D feature?
Thanks.

[Catfish_Man]

Originally posted by yaro:
ui1984,
Can you explain how you enabled the 2 D feature?
Thanks.

You have to install the developer tools. Basically it's the type of thing that if you can't figure out how to turn it on, you really don't want it on. Similar to the resolution independent UI. I've managed to make my machine almost unbootable using it (third time in 2 days). Also, from some posts I've read, text being faster is something of an anomaly. It's *supposed* to accelerate stuff like bezier paths, images, etc...

[ul1984]

Originally posted by Catfish_Man:
You have to install the developer tools. Basically it's the type of thing that if you can't figure out how to turn it on, you really don't want it on. Similar to the resolution independent UI. I've managed to make my machine almost unbootable using it (third time in 2 days). Also, from some posts I've read, text being faster is something of an anomaly. It's *supposed* to accelerate stuff like bezier paths, images, etc...

i havent enabled the resolution independant UI, and i havent had any problems, expect some drawing problems here and there, my system boots just fine.

and i think you're right, i ran Xbench again, this time with completly different results

Code:
	Quartz Graphics Test	119.32	
		Line		201.10	5.12 Klines/sec [50% alpha]
		Rectangle	292.15	20.55 Krects/sec [50% alpha]
		Circle		236.71	5.46 Kcircles/sec [50% alpha]
		Bezier		37.99	412.77 beziers/sec [50% alpha]
		Text		337.76	5.51 Kchars/sec

Quartz 2D Extreme seems a bit uncompleted at this time, giving completly different results, it probably has something to do with how much of my VRAM is filled up before i start or something like that, i guess

anyway scrolling is still faster tho, so im happy

[zeebe]

OK, I hope I don't get flamed for this...

I do not agree with Pirating software, in fact, I have a 56K line at home so it would take an eternity to download anything. I have a friend who found the supposed dev. preview on a torrent (sp??) site. He sent me pictures of what he has and there is no blue apple menu like I saw on the keynote (yes I watched it on a 56K, it was jumpy but not too bad). He said this was the dev. preview, I said no it wasn't. Who is right??

Again, I do NOT condone pirating of software. I tell my friend that he shouldn't be downloading that stuff, but he thinks he is invincible to the law.

Thanks for not flaming me

[gotterdamm]

Originally posted by zeebe:
I have a friend who found the supposed dev. preview on a torrent (sp??) site. He sent me pictures of what he has and there is no blue apple menu like I saw on the keynote (yes I watched it on a 56K, it was jumpy but not too bad). He said this was the dev. preview, I said no it wasn't. Who is right??

Your friend is right. The build currently making rounds in the pirate scene is indeed the build handed out at the WWDC. But that build is a few weeks earlier than the build Steve demoed. In the WWDC build the Apple menu does not have the blue lozenge, dashboard items don't appear with the "ripple" effect, and Automator is called "Pipeline." Other than that, it's pretty much the same.

[neoTony]

Originally posted by gotterdamm:
Your friend is right. The build currently making rounds in the pirate scene is indeed the build handed out at the WWDC. But that build is a few weeks earlier than the build Steve demoed. In the WWDC build the Apple menu does not have the blue lozenge, dashboard items don't appear with the "ripple" effect, and Automator is called "Pipeline." Other than that, it's pretty much the same.

The ripple appears if you have the right hardware. Go look at www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/ for info on supported video cards...

[ohm^n]

Originally posted by neoTony:
The ripple appears if you have the right hardware. Go look at www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/ for info on supported video cards...

Yea you need a friggin' Radeon 9800 Pro. They run about 400 dollars because this is the last area that companies overcharge for the Mac version. A PC 9800 pro runs 200 bucks on newegg.com...

Honestly, I don't believe that you need a Radeon 9800 or 9800 XT to draw these ripple effects. I imagine someone will bring release another hack to QuartzExtreme....

[Mr Scruff]

Originally posted by ohm^n:
Yea you need a friggin' Radeon 9800 Pro. They run about 400 dollars because this is the last area that companies overcharge for the Mac version. A PC 9800 pro runs 200 bucks on newegg.com...

Honestly, I don't believe that you need a Radeon 9800 or 9800 XT to draw these ripple effects. I imagine someone will bring release another hack to QuartzExtreme....

I think the reason you need a modern graphics card is that the ripple effect utilises CoreImage which is built using programmable shaders which is a relatively new thing (it means the same as having a DX9 GFX card for the Windows gamers amongst you).

On the other hand Apple may (probably) over the next year provide a software fallback for CoreImage/CoreVideo. But that would be CPU intensive so I'd be sceptical that they'd use it for GUI animations.

Note all the above is speculation formed from reading message boards, I have no inside info - so take it all with a pinch of salt!

[Spheric Harlot]

What I've heard bears that out.

I assume it will be the same as with Quartz Extreme's animations: What your hardware supports will be there, if you have a lesser card, the animations are simply skipped so as to not overburden your system.

(Yeah, you can hack OS X to turn on QE for unsupported cards, but there's always a performance hit to the system in that case.)

-s*

[Thorin]

The dashboard ripple effect worked on my Rev B 12" powerbook (GeForce FX Go5200), there was a slight stutter before it happened, but it worked ok.

[Mr Scruff]

Originally posted by Thorin:
The dashboard ripple effect worked on my Rev B 12" powerbook (GeForce FX Go5200), there was a slight stutter before it happened, but it worked ok.

Yep, FX 5200 is the lowest end nvidia card that supports programmable shaders. Unfortunately it's performance in this area is pretty terrible (try playing a DX9 game with the shader effects turned on with a 5200).

I do think the one area in this where you have to question Apple is their tendency to sell even their most expensive PowerMacs with crappy graphics cards (it was the 4 MX, now it's the FX 5200 - always the lowest end nvidia card available). Why would they do this when they more than anyone is pushing the capabilities of gfx cards on the desktop?

I mean, I know everyone can upgrade (I'm sure ATI & Nvidia are happy about this) but most people won't bother and so won't see the full power of the new CoreImage/CoreVideo stuff.

[Tyre MacAdmin]

I'm pretty sure the Ti4600 has programmable shaders... but not all the features like pixel shader 2.0. Nvidia chips are better a openGL acceration than ATI cards in 99% of the benchmarks out there so that's got to make up for something.

[Tyre MacAdmin]

Can someone explain the resolution independant UI? I know that a lot of the top Discreet products offer resolution independant editing on SGI hardware like the Terzo... is this anything like it?

[rezonate]

Originally posted by zachs:
I know. I wish someone would figure out a way to have the toolbar in the Aqua mode. Hopefully Apple will add that functionality by the time Tiger goes final.

That's the strange thing, they had this working fine in Jaguar. No matter what view you chose, you could have the toolbar, plus the search tool there too. I like to use a lot of list views, they look bad and too clunky in Metal view, but in Aqua list view I can't have my search tool.

since searching is a major feature in Tiger, I hope they could make it universal, no matter what Finder window, or type one is in.

[entrox]

Originally posted by Tyler McAdams:
I'm pretty sure the Ti4600 has programmable shaders... but not all the features like pixel shader 2.0. Nvidia chips are better a openGL acceration than ATI cards in 99% of the benchmarks out there so that's got to make up for something.

The NV25 fully supports ARB_vertex_program and quasi-programmable fragment units (NV_register_combiners2), so it should be able to accelerate at least a tiny percentage of Core Image, unless they still require fully programmable fragment units at release.

10.3.4 introduced a software fallback for ARB_fragment_shader, so perhaps we'll be able to bask in the full glory of Core Image in non-realtime

[Spheric Harlot]

I have no idea what any of that meant, but damn, it sounded cool.

1337

-s*

[arekkusu]

NV25 = GeForce 4Ti, and very few people have one of those in their Mac. On the nvidia side most people either have a GF4 MX or a GF FX. Both support ARB_vertex_program but it's software emulated on everything but the FX.

But if all people want is the stupid ripple effect, hell you can do that on a Rage 128: source code and explanation

[Tyre MacAdmin]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
I have no idea what any of that meant, but damn, it sounded cool.

1337

-s*

Yeah... it's like how could you possibly go wrong with technical terms that have underscores? But seriously, I did see some charts that showed at least parital acceleration with the Ti series.

[thanatos]

Originally posted by hyperb0le:
Apple will NEVER implement cut-and-paste. The cut-and-paste metaphor is extremely screwy in Windows. Say I cut a file (command-x) and don't paste it anywhere. Then I restart my computer. Theoretically, the file should no longer exist. However, that would piss people off if their files started disappearing.

By the way, since folders in the finder are spring-loaded, you can just drag the file to whatever subfolder you want, and move it there.

That is the most stupid thing I ever heard. When you cut files in windows they don't move until you paste. When you choose cut you get a reference to the files in the memory, but the files stay where they are until you paste. So there is no risk that the files will dissapear if you switch of your computer.

I'm also anoyed with Apple not implementing cut/paste. I'm using Xshelf to get that functionality (a drawer witch you put files in and then drag out to paste them).

Spring loaded folders suck to move files, it's easy to drop files in the wrong place .When windows open you never know which view they will be in and sometimes a window opens in icon view all folders are on top of each other so you cant find the folder you want to drop the file in. And you costantly need to move youre hand, because if you stay too long with the mouse over a folder in list view it will open and block the window beneath!

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally posted by thanatos:
That is the most stupid thing I ever heard. When you cut files in windows they don't move until you paste. When you choose cut you get a reference to the files in the memory, but the files stay where they are until you paste. So there is no risk that the files will dissapear if you switch of your computer.

I'm also anoyed with Apple not implementing cut/paste. I'm using Xshelf to get that functionality (a drawer witch you put files in and then drag out to paste them).

Spring loaded folders suck to move files, it's easy to drop files in the wrong place .When windows open you never know which view they will be in and sometimes a window opens in icon view all folders are on top of each other so you cant find the folder you want to drop the file in. And you costantly need to move youre hand, because if you stay too long with the mouse over a folder in list view it will open and block the window beneath!

When you 'cut' something, it should technically be deleted until pasted. Leave it to Microsoft to change it all. Files *shouldn't* stay when you cut. That's the risk you're taking by cutting. If you forget to paste, you lose.

Cutting and pasting should not apply to files/apps. The metaphor breaks. Maybe photocopy or the universally accepted 'Duplicate' but 'cut and paste' should be reserved for in-document editing. Just like you did in kindergarden cutting a square of paper and pasting it somewhere else. You shouldn't be able to 'cut' a document and paste it somewhere else in the Finder. I don't care if it's easier for people to do this. I agree that it's somewhat more difficult to manage files and move them around in 2004 now that we have huge HD with tons of files spread across it. But this concept should be dropped and a better way to manage files should replace the current one.

Thanks, Microsoft, for warping thanatos' fragile mind.

Anyhoo, Apple is developing a new way to manage files. You shouldn't need to move files much anymore in Tiger. If developers do their homework and default to proper folders to save files (ie Document for documents, Music for music, Movies for video, etc.), then everything should be generally well organized and Spotlight and Smart-Folders should do everything else for you. If you're still finding yourself moving files at all after Tiger, it's because you probably don't feel ready to make a step into a world of more powerful file management and won't be my or Apple's problem.

[ShotgunEd]

Originally posted by Horsepoo!!!:
When you 'cut' something, it should technically be deleted until pasted. Leave it to Microsoft to change it all. Files *shouldn't* stay when you cut. That's the risk you're taking by cutting. If you forget to paste, you lose.

Cutting and pasting should not apply to files/apps. The metaphor breaks. Maybe photocopy or the universally accepted 'Duplicate' but 'cut and paste' should be reserved for in-document editing. Just like you did in kindergarden cutting a square of paper and pasting it somewhere else. You shouldn't be able to 'cut' a document and paste it somewhere else in the Finder.

Thanks, Microsoft, for warping thanatos' fragile mind.

Yeah, the clipboard metaphor should definitely be reserved for in-file editing.

There are so many ways to move a file from one place to another, we shouldn't be encouraging people to use this method.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by thanatos:
I'm using Xshelf to get that functionality (a drawer witch you put files in and then drag out to paste them).

That is an acceptable and sensible metaphor, copied from the old NeXTSTEP system.

Cut and paste is not.

-s*