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You are here: MacNN Forums > Hardware - Troubleshooting and Discussion > Mac Desktops > The Mac Pro Waiting Blues

The Mac Pro Waiting Blues (Page 3)
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SierraDragon
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Sep 5, 2007, 09:48 PM
 
The farther into September we go without an upgraded Mac Pro the more likely it becomes that Mac Pro upgrades will be delayed until Intel releases Penryn, which is slated for November. <sigh>

-Allen Wicks
     
CheesePuff
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Sep 5, 2007, 09:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by SierraDragon View Post
The farther into September we go without an upgraded Mac Pro the more likely it becomes that Mac Pro upgrades will be delayed until Intel releases Penryn, which is slated for November. <sigh>

-Allen Wicks
You know what though... would you rather have just a hard drive/memory/GPU upgrade, or all 3 plus a faster, less power consuming processor as well?
     
mduell
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Sep 5, 2007, 10:49 PM
 
People wanted hard drive/memory/GPU upgrade, and it was available for other systems and practical price-wise, 6-10 months ago. There's no reason they all need to come at the same time. Apple could tweak the specs every 2-3 months to upgrade a different component if they wanted.

At this point, I think they're going to wait for a mega upgrade in November. But for the last 4-6 months their 'pro' machine has been ridiculous.
     
goMac
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Sep 6, 2007, 12:21 AM
 
I think we could see a Mac Pro upgrade in late October. Apple sometimes gets Intel processors early.
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Sandylp
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Sep 6, 2007, 04:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
I think we could see a Mac Pro upgrade in late October. Apple sometimes gets Intel processors early.
I agree. I think Apple is waiting for the Penryn chip and Leopard. I think that when Leopard is finally ready, the new Mac Pro will also be introduced. If it doesn't include the Penryn processor, I plan on waiting to purchase until it does. I just hope that Apple doesn't wait until WWDC in January to bring out a new Mac Pro. It would be nice to have it before Christmas.
     
Sandylp
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Sep 6, 2007, 04:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by MarkLT1 View Post
Unfortunately, the procs released today, are at a pricepoint MUCH higher than the current chips were when they were introduced (the top end processor is $2000+ wholesale). These new processors are for very high end servers and number crunching machines- not desktop workstations. Don't get me wrong, they'd be awesome in a MP, but the price point is simply too high to make them cost effective in any sense of the word for the MP.
According to the information listed on Intel's reseller site, the new chips will fetch between $209 for the 2.0GHz model to $1,172 for the 3.16GHz variant. In the sweet spot of the Xeon lineup -- where Apple has historically chosen its standard Mac Pro processors -- lies a 2.83GHz model priced at $690.
     
mduell
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Sep 6, 2007, 06:25 PM
 
Yea, Mac Pro launch dual 2.0/2.67/3.0 prices will become quad 2.5/2.83/3.0 in November.
     
MarkLT1
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Sep 6, 2007, 07:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Sandylp View Post
According to the information listed on Intel's reseller site, the new chips will fetch between $209 for the 2.0GHz model to $1,172 for the 3.16GHz variant. In the sweet spot of the Xeon lineup -- where Apple has historically chosen its standard Mac Pro processors -- lies a 2.83GHz model priced at $690.
Not sure where you are seeing that, but from the Intel press release here: Intel Launches First Industry-Standard Quad-Core Products for High-End, Multi-Processor Servers
Pricing of these new quad-core processors depends on the speeds, features and amount ordered, and ranges from $856 to $2,301 in quantities of 1,000.
     
mduell
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Sep 6, 2007, 09:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Sandylp View Post
According to the information listed on Intel's reseller site, the new chips will fetch between $209 for the 2.0GHz model to $1,172 for the 3.16GHz variant. In the sweet spot of the Xeon lineup -- where Apple has historically chosen its standard Mac Pro processors -- lies a 2.83GHz model priced at $690.
That's Tigerton, a 4 socket capable chip based on the current 65nm chips. The other poster was talking about Harpertown and friends, which are 45nm and only support 2 sockets.

Tigerton is totally irrelevant to the Mac Pro.
( Last edited by mduell; Sep 6, 2007 at 11:25 PM. )
     
MarkLT1
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Sep 6, 2007, 10:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
That's Tigerton, a 4 socket capable chip based on the current 65nm chips. The other poster was talking about Harpertown and friends, which are 45nm and only support 2 sockets.

Tigerton is totally irrelevant to the Mac Pro.
I know. I was replying to a previous poster stating that the quad-core chips released 3 days ago (the Tigertron's) would be the next Mac Pro chips.
     
mduell
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Sep 6, 2007, 11:25 PM
 
Yea, and I meant to reply to him, not you. Oops.
     
Simon
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Sep 7, 2007, 03:53 AM
 
Is there a reason we're rehashing things already mentioned pages ago? Or is that just another sign that there's no really interesting information regarding the MP available?
     
awcopus  (op)
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Sep 7, 2007, 06:49 AM
 
Simon, that's just another pathetic result of the Mac Pro Waiting Blues.

Anyone notice that a few days of epic bitching and moaning about the precipitous drop in the iPhone price has resulted in Jobs awarding every purchaser of an iPhone who didn't qualify for price protection (14 calendar days of the Sept.5th event) a $100 voucher for Apple products. THAT WAS RESPONSIVE.

Hooray for iPhone users.

Of course, it would have been decent for Apple, in lieu of ANY upgrades to its Mac Pro lineup, to at least lower its prices to reflect... what's the word here... oh yeah... REALITY. The idea that Apple's pimping this year-plus whore of a machine at the same rates has been disgusting for a long time, but clearly feedback from the Pro base of Apple customers doesn't reach that far up the totem pole anymore.
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MallyMal
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Sep 7, 2007, 07:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by awcopus View Post
Simon, that's just another pathetic result of the Mac Pro Waiting Blues.

Anyone notice that a few days of epic bitching and moaning about the precipitous drop in the iPhone price has resulted in Jobs awarding every purchaser of an iPhone who didn't qualify for price protection (14 calendar days of the Sept.5th event) a $100 voucher for Apple products. THAT WAS RESPONSIVE.

Hooray for iPhone users.

Of course, it would have been decent for Apple, in lieu of ANY upgrades to its Mac Pro lineup, to at least lower its prices to reflect... what's the word here... oh yeah... REALITY. The idea that Apple's pimping this year-plus whore of a machine at the same rates has been disgusting for a long time, but clearly feedback from the Pro base of Apple customers doesn't reach that far up the totem pole anymore.
Maybe we should email [email protected] like the iPhone people did.

I've already sent feedback through the Mac Pro Product Feedback form so maybe this is the next stop.
     
Veltliner
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Sep 8, 2007, 02:11 PM
 
I wonder that when, in a distant future, a new MacPro does arrive, what the line-up will be.

Pricewise.

Now, that Apple has killed off the iMac for pro users, they could introduce another 1500$ model...
     
mduell
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Sep 8, 2007, 03:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by Veltliner View Post
I wonder that when, in a distant future, a new MacPro does arrive, what the line-up will be.

Pricewise.

Now, that Apple has killed off the iMac for pro users, they could introduce another 1500$ model...
Apple tends to keep the prices the same and just bump up the specs. Base at $2500 should be 2.83Ghz dual quads, 2GB, 400GB, 8400GT or similar.

The iMac is alive and well for pro users, so I don't expect a Mac Pro configuration under $2k.
     
Captain Curt
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Sep 8, 2007, 05:39 PM
 
I seriously doubt emailing Steve Jobs will do any good, for quite a few reasons. Leopard should be shipping in the near future. Steve and company would want to save a new video card (or new mac pros) for a bigger, better launch of Leopard.

Even though the mac pro users probably spend more money per person/ per computer than any other segment of Apple customers, we are already committed to the mac while new iphone customers include a large percentage of new customers. Obviously, new customers are the most valuable to Apple. Bringing in members of the general public under the Apple tent and seducing them with the ease of use of Apple products is Apple's job number one.
How many prospective mac pro buyers are put off by the current lack of incremental speed increases?

Also, Steve Jobs just spent 75-85 million dollars (theoretically anyway) to pacify a iphone rebellion. I doubt he is in the mood for more giving. He doesn't need to worry about a mac pro rebellion. Where would we go?

I suggest we email the media and ask them to ask Steve Jobs if Apple is conceding the mac pro video card upgrade market. And if so, would Apple share information (EFI firmware?) so third parties could write drivers for other video cards.
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mduell
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Sep 8, 2007, 06:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Captain Curt View Post
I suggest we email the media and ask them to ask Steve Jobs if Apple is conceding the mac pro video card upgrade market. And if so, would Apple share information (EFI firmware?) so third parties could write drivers for other video cards.
EFI specs are readily available. Who's going to dump money into writing firmware for so few users?
     
Captain Curt
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Sep 8, 2007, 08:24 PM
 
Mduell, you make an excellent point. Maybe this is one of the first real downsides (besides cost) of a mac pro. We are locked into a Apple supplied video card. I'm hoping the new mac pros will bring a chance for a video card update for the current mac pros.

Looking thru the extensible firmware interface topic in wikipedia, I noticed that one of the stated goals of efi was to "protect hardware vendors intellectual property". So I take it that in addition to being a very small market, Apple may also be guarding hardware secrets.

Rats! I was hoping to eventually have a blazing fast video card that would be priced right.
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mduell
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Sep 8, 2007, 09:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Captain Curt View Post
Looking thru the extensible firmware interface topic in wikipedia, I noticed that one of the stated goals of efi was to "protect hardware vendors intellectual property". So I take it that in addition to being a very small market, Apple may also be guarding hardware secrets.
I'm not sure what that quote really means, and looking at the source of that quote I'm not sure it's totally reliable. It seems to be more related to TPM/DRM than preventing choice in video cards.

If Apple dropped the component prices over time, like the retail parts and even Dell/HP's online pricing, even monthly, I think there would be a lot less griping about their lack up upgrades. But paying a mid-2006 price in mid-2007 is just silly. I thought of this because I just received the weekly Newegg flyer with X1950GT 256MB cards for $95.
     
Simon
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Sep 9, 2007, 02:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by Veltliner View Post
Now, that Apple has killed off the iMac for pro users, they could introduce another 1500$ model...
Apple considers the new iMac even more suitable for professionals than the previous models.
     
dantewaters
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Sep 9, 2007, 08:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
I'm not sure what that quote really means, and looking at the source of that quote I'm not sure it's totally reliable. It seems to be more related to TPM/DRM than preventing choice in video cards.

If Apple dropped the component prices over time, like the retail parts and even Dell/HP's online pricing, even monthly, I think there would be a lot less griping about their lack up upgrades. But paying a mid-2006 price in mid-2007 is just silly. I thought of this because I just received the weekly Newegg flyer with X1950GT 256MB cards for $95.
Man so hold off on buying my MacPro this week coming?
November just seems far away...
     
MallyMal
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Sep 9, 2007, 08:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
EFI specs are readily available. Who's going to dump money into writing firmware for so few users?
Originally Posted by Captain Curt View Post
Mduell, you make an excellent point. Maybe this is one of the first real downsides (besides cost) of a mac pro. We are locked into a Apple supplied video card. I'm hoping the new mac pros will bring a chance for a video card update for the current mac pros.
I brought both of these points up in several threads. Basically, I can't buy my own card because no one is willing to make card for Apple because the Mac Pro is the only computer in the line that can take a graphics card.

I can't buy a card from Apple because they haven't updated the cards and they have not updated the systems so I can get another card. So, is this what Mac Pro users have to look forward to? One update a year? I guess that thing about Mac users not being able to upgrade and having to buy a new computer is true.

Curt, you mentioned in your other post that Mac Pro users won't leave because they have no place to go. That is untrue. If they are video professionals they can go to Windows and get Avid, Premiere, Vegas etc. Also, most all other pro apps are on Windows as well.

If these professionals find that Apple is affecting their bottom line by being slow to react you best believe they will leave the platform...again.
     
mduell
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Sep 9, 2007, 09:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by MallyMal View Post
I guess that thing about Mac users not being able to upgrade and having to buy a new computer is true.
Yes, if you consider the graphics card to be the only part worth upgrading, and completely ignore the CPU/RAM/HDD.
     
MallyMal
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Sep 9, 2007, 10:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
Yes, if you consider the graphics card to be the only part worth upgrading, and completely ignore the CPU/RAM/HDD.
Yes, I know, I should have been more specific.
     
Veltliner
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Sep 10, 2007, 03:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by Captain Curt View Post
I seriously doubt emailing Steve Jobs will do any good.
Maybe e-mail his double?
     
Veltliner
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Sep 10, 2007, 03:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by MallyMal View Post
If these professionals find that Apple is affecting their bottom line by being slow to react you best believe they will leave the platform...again.
Could the day come where apple software runs on non-apple machines? After all, with the swtich to Intel the two worlds came closer. And isn't Linux rather close to Apple's UNIX core? These are not statements - see the questions marks.

I just wonder how closely related software writing is to the hardware it is for.
     
mduell
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Originally Posted by Veltliner View Post
Could the day come where apple software runs on non-apple machines?
Could? Sure.
Will Apple ever give up the hardware control and profits? No way.

Originally Posted by Veltliner View Post
And isn't Linux rather close to Apple's UNIX core?
OS X (Darwin) and Linux are totally different. The similarities are only at the higher levels (such as being POSIX compliant). Google the unix timeline to see where they split.
     
awcopus  (op)
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Sep 12, 2007, 09:58 AM
 
Apple released Logic software update today. Obviously Apple is going to update all of its software before it updates the Mac Pro line. DUH!
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xe0
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Sep 12, 2007, 10:03 PM
 
So whats the consensus?

Mac Pro coming to a store near you, in Late October, or January 08?
     
awcopus  (op)
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Sep 12, 2007, 11:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by xe0 View Post
So whats the consensus?
Apple's Mac Pro Update schedule is greatly insane, out of step with the times, bizarre, frustrating, and infuriating.

Originally Posted by xe0 View Post
Mac Pro coming to a store near you, in Late October, or January 08?
There is no rational basis for expecting it on one of your dates as opposed to the other. There was a rational basis for expecting it months ago. Apple's Mac Pro update delivery schedule is now beyond reason.
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Simon
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Sep 13, 2007, 03:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by xe0 View Post
Mac Pro coming to a store near you, in Late October, or January 08?
With the X/E54x0 series ("Harpertown" IOW the Penryn-based Xeon) coming out Nov 11, that's where I'd put my money. Apple seems to get preferential treatment from Intel, so maybe they'll be available a bit earlier. Give it another month and we'll know for sure. Here's Apple's choice:

Xeon X5460 - 3.16 / 12MB / 1333 MHz - TDP 120 W - $1172
Xeon E5450 - 3.00 / 12MB / 1333 MHz - TDP 80 W - $851
Xeon E5440 - 2.83 / 12MB / 1333 MHz - TDP 80 W - $690
Xeon E5430 - 2.66 / 12MB / 1333 MHz - TDP 80 W - $455
Xeon E5420 - 2.50 / 12MB / 1333 MHz - TDP 80 W - $316
Xeon E5410 - 2.33 / 12MB / 1333 MHz - TDP 80 W - $256
The E5420, E5440, and E5450 come at exactly the same price points as the 5130, 5150, and 5160 that are used in the current MP.

That said, there's also another possibility as we approach the end of the year: Switching the MP to the Seaburg chipset with its 1600 MHz FSB, 128 GB RAM limit, and 32 PCIe lanes! Intel plans to offer these two Harpertowns for Seaburg:
Xeon E5472 - 3.0 / 12MB / 1600 MHz - TDP 80 W - $958
Xeon E5462 - 2.8 / 12MB / 1600 MHz - TDP 80 W - $797
Just slightly more expensive than the 1333 MHz models. OTOH especially the added PCIe lanes (making dual 16 lane graphic card operation possible) are interesting for Apple's workstation market.
     
suneohair
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Sep 13, 2007, 11:47 PM
 
OEMs generally get hardware well before they hit the retail market. If there is a Mac Pro in the works it is probably ready now but awaiting for the parts to ship in quantity. I suspect we will have a new Mac Pro next month with Leopard. At this point, it is the only thing in the line that hasn't been updated in a significant way.
     
Sparkletron
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Sep 13, 2007, 11:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by suneohair View Post
At this point, it is the only thing in the line that hasn't been updated in a significant way.
The ACDs haven't been updated either. But it seems more likely that Apple will release the new OS with new MPs over new ACDs. My guess is they'll release all three at once.

-S
     
dantewaters
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Sep 14, 2007, 02:10 AM
 
Yea the macpro and macmini are the only 2 that haven't had a significant update in awhile.
I wonder what they will have up their sleeves come January if all the new stuff comes out now?

Even though those new chips are said to be spreading across the board(laptops and such). Anyone knows anything about Penryn having SSE4, I was told will have great boost in speed compared to its current brethren.
     
Simon
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Sep 14, 2007, 04:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by dantewaters View Post
Yea the macpro and macmini are the only 2 that haven't had a significant update in awhile.
As far as Apple is concerned in August the mini was updated by about as much as you can expect. The mini is a 'low key' thing. Don't expect big jumps.
     
mduell
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Sep 14, 2007, 07:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by dantewaters View Post
Yea the macpro and macmini are the only 2 that haven't had a significant update in awhile.

Even though those new chips are said to be spreading across the board(laptops and such). Anyone knows anything about Penryn having SSE4, I was told will have great boost in speed compared to its current brethren.
The Mac mini just got a bump bigger than the MacBook's last bump.

HKEPC was the first to get their hands on some Penryn samples, and they show gains consistent with the benchmarks Intel was showing off at IDF. Anandtech also has benchmarks for more apps.
     
Fred33
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Sep 14, 2007, 09:33 AM
 
I have found overall that Apple is slow on releasing updates. It is very frustrating, but I have learned to work around it.
     
Simon
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Sep 14, 2007, 10:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by Fred33 View Post
I have found overall that Apple is slow on releasing updates. It is very frustrating, but I have learned to work around it.
It depends what you're waiting for. In some cases they updated very early: They were one of the first to launch Core Duo, they were the first to launch Merom XE and they were two months ahead of everybody else with the 3 GHz Clovertown. C2D took longer, Crestline still hasn't made it to the MB or Mm, and the MP hasn't seen it's specs refreshed in ages.
     
motoxpress
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Sep 14, 2007, 04:29 PM
 
The answer to this problem is simple: If you need it now, buy the MacPro. If you don't need it now, just wait. They always get faster/better/cheaper the longer you wait.

-mx
     
BelugaShark
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Sep 16, 2007, 12:05 PM
 
i'm impatiently waiting for a mini-tower, which i think may never happen.
     
~bash $
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Sep 16, 2007, 02:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by BelugaShark View Post
i'm impatiently waiting for a mini-tower, which i think may never happen.
Personally, I'd settle for a mac mini with a dedicated graphics card.
     
awcopus  (op)
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Oct 6, 2007, 05:58 PM
 
I have it on excellent authority (an in-person conversation with another member of this very forum!) that Apple is on the verge of releasing a brand new Mac Pro AND new Mac displays.

The Mac Pro Waiting Blues are coming to an end in the eleventh month of 2007? Stay tuned!!!:bicker :
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Lateralus
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Oct 6, 2007, 07:17 PM
 
I tend to not feel the need to lend credit to anybody who ends up guessing the release time frame of the new Mac Pro.

Because after this long with nothing new out of Apple... Let's just say if you repeat the same prediction over and over, it'll eventually come true.
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Reggie Fowler
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Oct 7, 2007, 08:20 AM
 
My sources say they will announce new mac pros in November as well. But they won't be shipping till January. What i still don't know is if they will have a blu-ray burner built in.

please apple. give the people what they want!
     
SierraDragon
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Oct 7, 2007, 11:56 AM
 
Hmmm, the longer it takes the less expensive existing refurb/used MPs will become after new MPs are finally out. Value deals!

My guess is new MPs as icing on the Leopard cake at the end of the month; perhaps a Photoshop demo head-to-head against a PC. Maybe (I wish) an Aperture 2.0 demo too, but Aperture is Mac-only. Then a "super" workstation class box as a speed bump at Mac Expo SF.

IMO Blu-ray is somewhat moot because it is easily added to the extra optical drive slot of existing MPs: MCE Blu-ray Internal Recordable Drive for Mac Pro, Power Mac. Therefore we already have Blu-ray, and individuals' choices are simply limited by price and Blu-ray's place in the HD drives competition. However what Apple could do (please?) is make the Blu-ray option on new MPs inexpensive, well below retail market prices. There is precedent for that: Apple rocked the market when it first included Superdrives at what was at the time a low price.

-Allen Wicks
( Last edited by SierraDragon; Oct 7, 2007 at 12:39 PM. )
     
Cadaver
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Oct 7, 2007, 12:21 PM
 
One of the rumor sites is reporting that the next Mac Pro update will be based around the 45 nm Penryn processors, which are due in November (essentially only one month away). They report that Intel will be supplying Apple with higher clocked processors than otherwise generally available, much like they did with the 8-core 3.0GHz machines when they first came out.

Sounds reasonable to me; add salt as necessary.
     
goMac
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Oct 7, 2007, 04:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Reggie Fowler View Post
My sources say they will announce new mac pros in November as well. But they won't be shipping till January. What i still don't know is if they will have a blu-ray burner built in.

please apple. give the people what they want!
Doesn't sound right at all to me. Intel's is releasing the new processors to retail in November. I would say we'll see new Mac Pros either this month or early next month. January is way way too late.
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mduell
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Oct 7, 2007, 04:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by Reggie Fowler View Post
My sources say they will announce new mac pros in November as well. But they won't be shipping till January.

There's no way they'll delay shipments until January.

Originally Posted by SierraDragon View Post
My guess is new MPs as icing on the Leopard cake at the end of the month; perhaps a Photoshop demo head-to-head against a PC. Maybe (I wish) an Aperture 2.0 demo too, but Aperture is Mac-only. Then a "super" workstation class box as a speed bump at Mac Expo SF.
I don't see Apple getting into the "super workstation" market with something like a Tigerton-based box.

Originally Posted by SierraDragon View Post
IMO Blu-ray is somewhat moot because it is easily added to the extra optical drive slot of existing MPs: MCE Blu-ray Internal Recordable Drive for Mac Pro, Power Mac. Therefore we already have Blu-ray, and individuals' choices are simply limited by price and Blu-ray's place in the HD drives competition.
Presumably along with the drives would come software support; movie watching and disk authoring, etc.
     
goMac
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Oct 7, 2007, 05:37 PM
 
I doubt with the renewed HD disc platform war going on that Apple is going to add Bluray, but that's a different topic...
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